a quesdtion about babies

[XfistX]

what is your opinion on abortion? is it right or wrong or what?

[xDOUGxDIGGLERx]

should be allowed, but not so easy to obtain.

a person killing the baby because they are not ready for it and its a mistake they will never make again then yes.

but when a woman is constantly getting pregnant, not caring about protection and killing the babies likes some morbid assembly line then it shouldn't.

aint an edge subject if you wanna know, but maybe you do.

[XfistX]

well personally im hardcore prolife and sorry about it bein' nonedge or somethin you said

[straightXed]

Originally posted by XfistX
well personally im hardcore prolife and sorry about it bein' nonedge or somethin you said

Pro life in all cases, does that include rape, medical issues, and what constitutes life?

[XfistX]

Originally posted by straightXed
Pro life in all cases, does that include rape, medical issues, and what constitutes life?

exactly, evryone deserves a right to life

[straightXed]

Originally posted by XfistX
exactly, evryone deserves a right to life

so what if it will kill the mother to bear the child?

[XfistX]

i know this may sound a bit on the cruel side but the child hasnt had the chance to live and deserves that like evry individual

[straightXed]

Originally posted by XfistX
i know this may sound a bit on the cruel side but the child hasnt had the chance to live and deserves that like evry individual

yes but its going to kill someone who is living and there is no gaurantee that the child would survive the birth, would you risk both dying, is the fact that one has not had the chance to live somehow belittling the mothers right to continue living?

[xDOUGxDIGGLERx]

well say if it is guarenteed that the baby and mother will die.

killing the baby will preserve life.

its a paradox

is this a reference to THOU SHALT NOT KILL?

then it will interest me if you are a vegetarian or not

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xDOUGxDIGGLERx
well say if it is guarenteed that the baby and mother will die.

killing the baby will preserve life.

its a paradox

is this a reference to THOU SHALT NOT KILL?

then it will interest me if you are a vegetarian or not

If you are talking to me then no i am not vegetarian, i was vegan which is better if your reasons are ethical ones but mine were health i am no longer vegan.

[sabresnmets]

im definetly pro choice

[straightXed]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
im definetly pro choice

What do you think of restrictions applied to that choice?

[xDOUGxDIGGLERx]

well i was asking anyone who is pro life really,

but if you choose that human life is more valued over aniamls then it is your desision and you will all know first hand how important that is to the individual.

i was juts thinking about an arguement i read about between cheif hare krishna swami phrahubata and a preist about the commandment THOU SHALT NOT KILL,

he found it strange that it only meant about killing humans and not the animals they eat all the time

he said it would be fine if the commandment said THOU SHALT NOT KILL HUMAN BEINGS.

juts a practise what you preach thing really

[XfistX]

well one of the purposes of animals are to be eaten and to eat something you must kill it

[XfistX]

Originally posted by straightXed
yes but its going to kill someone who is living and there is no gaurantee that the child would survive the birth, would you risk both dying, is the fact that one has not had the chance to live somehow belittling the mothers right to continue living?

i know, you make sense and it is kind of belittling the mothers right to life but the mother has lived her life already. i hate saying this, i really do because i feel alot of sympothy for her AND the child because it will go through life with their biological mother.

what im saying is that the mother IS also an individual but the baby needs to have their chance [its not fun to think about].

[flame_still_burns]

Originally posted by XfistX
well one of the purposes of animals are to be eaten and to eat something you must kill it

one of the purposes of animals are to be eaten?

what is your purpose here?

i feel a biblical verse coming back at me.

[flame_still_burns]

here's the thing about abortion...

i have two kids of my own and i see how absolutely amazing they are, and i know that my wife and i could never go in and have an abortion performed. but that's us... people will do what they want with their bodies.

outlawing abortion does nothing but turn abortion into a back alley practice that kills more mothers... and just as many babies. here is a great link that addresses the issue much more thoroughly and intelligently than i ever could:

http://www.foodrevolution.org/askjohn/26.htm

don't let a book make your decisions for you.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by XfistX
i know, you make sense and it is kind of belittling the mothers right to life but the mother has lived her life already. i hate saying this, i really do because i feel alot of sympothy for her AND the child because it will go through life with their biological mother.

what im saying is that the mother IS also an individual but the baby needs to have their chance [its not fun to think about].

The mother has already lived her life? How old do you think the majority of mothers who get abortions are? I myself hate the idea of abortion but i can expect everyone to feel the way i do about it can i? I mean can you imagine the torrid experience of being 13 years of age and being forced to carry the child of your rapist because the law says that is right? can you honestly put yourself in those shoes and tell me the same thing. And if the child is to be born is it then to live its entire life without being given the truth about its conception, if it is given the truth what provisions are made to make the child feel comfortable with that?

All i'm asking is what is your alleged protocol for the ramifications of a pro-life society?

[sabresnmets]

there definetly has to be restrictions. or pathetic women would be using it as birth control (like some do), im talking about the rape cases and women that are too young. even then that is a tough subject, young women can abuse it as well.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
there definetly has to be restrictions. or pathetic women would be using it as birth control (like some do), im talking about the rape cases and women that are too young. even then that is a tough subject, young women can abuse it as well.

there already are restrictions, but how would you change it?

[sabresnmets]

you know what i dont know. cause i wouldnt want to restrict it too much and hurt a women cause like someone said, it would become back alley practices. i dont think i could live with myself. on the other hand i dont like that some people are using it as birth control. glad i dont have to make the rules.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
there definetly has to be restrictions. or pathetic women would be using it as birth control (like some do), im talking about the rape cases and women that are too young. even then that is a tough subject, young women can abuse it as well.


I've yet to meet a woman that treats abortion as birth control. seeing as how expensive, painful and traumatic they are. men for some reason think that abortions are these quick and easy procedures like getting a zit popped that don't carry long term effects with them. it's insane.

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by xsecx
I've yet to meet a woman that treats abortion as birth control. seeing as how expensive, painful and traumatic they are. men for some reason think that abortions are these quick and easy procedures like getting a zit popped that don't carry long term effects with them. it's insane.

here here.

I too would like to point out we are a bunch of men are the ones talking about what the rules should be; and, how some women use it as birth control.
I put forth the following questions and commentary...
*Have any of you ever had one?
-I should say not. So then how can you calim to know so much.

*Do you know anyone who has had one?
-I do, infact, I know a few people, and it is something which still causes them grief years afterward. Further you have to be kidding me when you say its just so easy to get one. Yes, it is easy, compared to some things, but you cant go down to the local liquor store to get one, there is a long proceedure involved, and it isnt a spur of the moment kind of thing.

*If pro-life people think it is wrong to kill a child, what about all the atrocities with animals?
-My girlfriend works in a vetrinary hospital, and part of her job is to euthenize animals. Should she be arrested because she has had to put pregenant animals down, I am certain pro-life people have been involved on at least one occasion

what about veal, I'm sure many pro-life people eat that, at least people arent eating their children so I give you a modest proposal (click here) (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html)
what about the social, economic, and policical ramifications?

[sabresnmets]

most girls are affected by the abortions mentally, i know a girl that have had more than three abortions and she wasnt even 21 years old. i dont mean they literally use it as birth control but some girls dont mind getting pregnant, because they could just get an abortion. and i know this cause it was a conversation between my sister and her friend.

[xvunderx]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
most girls are affected by the abortions mentally, i know a girl that have had more than three abortions and she wasnt even 21 years old. i dont mean they literally use it as birth control but some girls dont mind getting pregnant, because they could just get an abortion. and i know this cause it was a conversation between my sister and her friend.

Then don't you think that maybe better education on the subject of birth controle would be a more desirable option? people who talk like that are normaly pretty imature, and pretty ignorant on the subject.

I think people who hold this argument should look at promoting better forms of birth control, making it more easily available, making the choices better known?

And to the "Pathetic women" Statment, perhaps you could think your words through more carfully.

[sabresnmets]

i didnt mean all women that had abortions were pathetic or anything, i was referring to my sisters friend (sorry i wasnt specific) she is a heroine addict and she has a child that is in a home cause she used while pregnant and the child came out disabled. so i think she deserves being called pathetic.

[xvunderx]

I know too many kids doing shit like that. if anything I see them as an argument to keep abortion legal and available.

[sabresnmets]

to each their own. i think that outlawing it would be stupid, people are gonna do it anyway. i think people like my sisters friend should be newtered. (im sure i spelled that wrong)

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by xvunderx
I think people who hold this argument should look at promoting better forms of birth control, making it more easily available, making the choices better known?

I agree with that one, I dont know about elsewhere, but even in a "progressive" region of the US, people still dont know what the hell they are doing as far as any kind of contraception is concerned.

[emalee04117208]

ok, so abortion. i think that it should be illegalized because if there are options for the mother, like adoption, or the law that in most states you can drop your baby off at a police, fire or EMS station or the hospitol emergency room with no questions asked, then the baby should have a right to life. and to quote the bible, "thou shalt not kill", and the constitution, "the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" abortion would be be against both most importantly the constitution considering theres seperation of church and state...not that im atheiest or anything....

[xsecx]

Originally posted by emalee04117208
ok, so abortion. i think that it should be illegalized because if there are options for the mother, like adoption, or the law that in most states you can drop your baby off at a police, fire or EMS station or the hospitol emergency room with no questions asked, then the baby should have a right to life. and to quote the bible, "thou shalt not kill", and the constitution, "the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" abortion would be be against both most importantly the constitution considering theres seperation of church and state...not that im atheiest or anything....

you make it sound like pregnancy is a simple thing and not at all hard on the mother.

[xvunderx]

Originally posted by xsecx
you make it sound like pregnancy is a simple thing and not at all hard on the mother.

well you know the physical and mental strain isn't insanly hard on the mother even during a wanted pregnancy, and it's not like pregnancy can hold you back in any way?

I want to ask, why do you want to make me and others follow your choice? Abortion might not be the right choice for you, but let the individual decide what is best for them, their life and thier body.

[emalee04117208]

Originally posted by xsecx
you make it sound like pregnancy is a simple thing and not at all hard on the mother.

im not saying that AT ALL. pregnancy is emotionally and physically draining, but is it any easier living with the fact that you Killed someone, who never even saw its mothers face. www.abortiontruth.com GO THERE..and dont eat before you go there.

[sabresnmets]

wow that was tough.

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by emalee04117208
ok, so abortion. i think that it should be illegalized because if there are options for the mother, like adoption, or the law that in most states you can drop your baby off at a police, fire or EMS station or the hospitol emergency room with no questions asked, then the baby should have a right to life. and to quote the bible, "thou shalt not kill", and the constitution, "the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" abortion would be be against both most importantly the constitution considering theres seperation of church and state...not that im atheiest or anything....

Dude, how dare you, you just quoted the bible as a reason for law, the only thing I can say is fuck YOU and your CULT. Where do people get off using the bible, even if you use the argument that this country was founded by christians on christian principals, the country changes with the time and that is no longer the case. If someone tried to use the holy texts of any other religion they would be riticuled and told about seperation of C & S. Further, and more to the point a fetus is not a life, it is not alive, there is a signifigant difference between something that is alive, and the gestation of a fetus. Life requires the ability to sustain itself, a fetus is not capable of that until after a point, and we have established that you cant do it beyond said point. Cellular divion is not substantial enough to qualify as life like you and I experience it.

It takes alot for me to get this angry, but please take your book and put it on the bookshelf where it belongs, not in my face

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by emalee04117208
im not saying that AT ALL. pregnancy is emotionally and physically draining, but is it any easier living with the fact that you Killed someone, who never even saw its mothers face. www.abortiontruth.com GO THERE..and dont eat before you go there.

youre not killing someone, you are ending cellular division. We (people) are defined by our personalities, it is our individuality that makes us who we are, without our individuality, we are nobody, and thus we are not someone.

[Sean The Red]

I know this is my third post in a row, but I think this discussion needs a clarificaion of what life is, so here it is straight from marriam-websters, definitions 1a,b,c and 2a,b of life:

1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings -- compare VITALISM 1 c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

2 a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual b : one or more aspects of the process of living <sex life of the frog>

these are the two primary definitions of what life is. If you use the word life, please ensure it meets these requirements

[xsecx]

Originally posted by emalee04117208
im not saying that AT ALL. pregnancy is emotionally and physically draining, but is it any easier living with the fact that you Killed someone, who never even saw its mothers face. www.abortiontruth.com GO THERE..and dont eat before you go there.

yeah, but who are you to decide that for someone? Why not let the people involved decide what is going to be best for them? is it any easier living with the fact that you gave your child away to social services and could have gone on to a horrible life?

and it's not a someone, it's a something.

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by xsecx
and it's not a someone, it's a something.

true true, potential for life is not life

[emalee04117208]

Originally posted by xsecx
yeah, but who are you to decide that for someone? Why not let the people involved decide what is going to be best for them? is it any easier living with the fact that you gave your child away to social services and could have gone on to a horrible life?

and it's not a someone, it's a something.



what if the mother is mentally unstable? what if the mother MENTALLY cant make the descion?

and besides, adoption is not always a bad thing.

[emalee04117208]

Originally posted by Sean The Red
Dude, how dare you, you just quoted the bible as a reason for law, the only thing I can say is fuck YOU and your CULT. Where do people get off using the bible, even if you use the argument that this country was founded by christians on christian principals, the country changes with the time and that is no longer the case. If someone tried to use the holy texts of any other religion they would be riticuled and told about seperation of C & S. Further, and more to the point a fetus is not a life, it is not alive, there is a signifigant difference between something that is alive, and the gestation of a fetus. Life requires the ability to sustain itself, a fetus is not capable of that until after a point, and we have established that you cant do it beyond said point. Cellular divion is not substantial enough to qualify as life like you and I experience it.

It takes alot for me to get this angry, but please take your book and put it on the bookshelf where it belongs, not in my face



1st of all, if a fetus is a life. if it wasnt a life, why can you see it move on the ultrasound, why can you feel it kick voluntarily?
2nd of all im sorry i "threw my book at you" but our country was formed on christian principles, and you cant say that to me personally because if some one else said something to be cited from their holy writings i wouldnt laugh them off because religion is fundamental in how we act as people and all religions should be considered. but i didnt know enogugh about the other religions to cite them

[xvunderx]

Originally posted by emalee04117208
what if the mother is mentally unstable? what if the mother MENTALLY cant make the descion?

and besides, adoption is not always a bad thing.

Adoption isn't always a bad thing. But thats for the individual to decide. And if the mother is mentaly unstable, do you think forcing her to carry to term a child is really going to help?

Pro choice is just that, the right of the individual to make their own choices based on the individuals own circumsance.

[xvunderx]

Originally posted by emalee04117208
1st of all, if a fetus is a life. if it wasnt a life, why can you see it move on the ultrasound, why can you feel it kick voluntarily?
2nd of all im sorry i "threw my book at you" but our country was formed on christian principles, and you cant say that to me personally because if some one else said something to be cited from their holy writings i wouldnt laugh them off because religion is fundamental in how we act as people and all religions should be considered. but i didnt know enogugh about the other religions to cite them

If a fetus can live on it's own, go for it. But last time I checked it needed the mothers blood, oxigen, food, warmth and body. It is the potential for life just like an embryo, an egg, a sperm. It is not it's own self till later on, and that is why there are restrictions as to how long you have till you can have an abortion.

Second, I don't belive in your book, I do not live by your book, and that is my right. I have a right to not be governed by your faith, I have the right to chose. You chose that abortion is wrong, you chose the bible as your book and as your faith. That is not something you can or should force on others. Choice is for each and every individual.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by emalee04117208
1st of all, if a fetus is a life. if it wasnt a life, why can you see it move on the ultrasound, why can you feel it kick voluntarily?
2nd of all im sorry i "threw my book at you" but our country was formed on christian principles, and you cant say that to me personally because if some one else said something to be cited from their holy writings i wouldnt laugh them off because religion is fundamental in how we act as people and all religions should be considered. but i didnt know enogugh about the other religions to cite them

just to point out, the US was founded on humanist and not christian principles.

and actually religion should have nothing to with the law at all and should be completely secular.

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by emalee04117208
1st of all, if a fetus is a life. if it wasnt a life, why can you see it move on the ultrasound, why can you feel it kick voluntarily?
2nd of all im sorry i "threw my book at you" but our country was formed on christian principles, and you cant say that to me personally because if some one else said something to be cited from their holy writings i wouldnt laugh them off because religion is fundamental in how we act as people and all religions should be considered. but i didnt know enogugh about the other religions to cite them

I'm going to start with your second point first.
Listen douche bag, I told you not to pull that crap, even if you say it was founded on them, it certainly doesnt adhear to them anymore, so if you start that, you had better be ready to throwdown some versus against science in an epic argument.

now as for your first point, after a certain point, yes, it will respond, however we have already established that you cant abort after that point. Its like walking out the door, one step youre inside, next youre outside. One moment it doesnt qualify as life, the next it does; it is as simple as that! And if you go off about the whole reaction of cells to stimuli, then you had better not ever go to the doctor and have them take a culture, because then you would be killing cells that could have divided, you murdering bastard