this is bullshit

[xgregx]

as many of you know I attend a catholic high school and the topic was God creating all good things.

I raise my hand and say...

"I don't understand how you can say God is pure goodness. If God created evil how is He not evil himself. It is impossible. For every virture there is villiany. God cannot be good with out evil. He created the serpent, and the serpent represented evil or 'Satan'. How can you say God is all good and no evil if he created the evil?"

got kicked out of class for that one.
score 1 for the agnostic fucker.
score board

agnostic fucker 4
catholic church 3

[SgtD]

go greg!

[Sean The Red]

keep fighting the good fight!

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xgregx
"I don't understand how you can say God is pure goodness. If God created evil how is He not evil himself. It is impossible. For every virture there is villiany. God cannot be good with out evil. He created the serpent, and the serpent represented evil or 'Satan'. How can you say God is all good and no evil if he created the evil?"


Easy question to answer. God created humanity and, presumably, the angels and fallen angels (Satan, the serpent etc) with free will. This allows us and them to have the choice to do evil, if we wish.

While God is pure good, His creations need not be. He chose to give us free will, so that if we were good, as he is, it would be out of our own choice not because he forced us to by making us incapable of evil.

I'm not Catholic, or even an expert on Christianity in general, and I can answer your question.

Perhaps you were just thrown out because the teacher was fed up with you, not because she couldn't answer your question?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Easy question to answer. God created humanity and, presumably, the angels and fallen angels (Satan, the serpent etc) with free will. This allows us and them to have the choice to do evil, if we wish.

While God is pure good, His creations need not be. He chose to give us free will, so that if we were good, as he is, it would be out of our own choice not because he forced us to by making us incapable of evil.

I'm not Catholic, or even an expert on Christianity in general, and I can answer your question.

Perhaps you were just thrown out because the teacher was fed up with you, not because she couldn't answer your question?

yeah but its not clear cut like that, if god is pure good and creates evil and the possibility for evil to consume all even if its due to freewill he is at the root of the creation of an all consuming evil.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Since when did evil have the possibility of consuming all?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Since when did evil have the possibility of consuming all?

scince god gave freewill.

[xJoeyNormalx]

But isn't God part of all? And isn't God by definition more powerful than any of his creations?

So, free will or not, evil can't consume God. Aaand, in the God-vs-Satan/good-vs-evil battle type thing, how could God possibly lose?

[xgregx]

evil over comes all things.
villany will always beat virture
"a virtuous mind dreams of what a wicked man does."
- Dead to Fall
if you don't think that statement is true then...wow.

[xgregx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Perhaps you were just thrown out because the teacher was fed up with you, not because she couldn't answer your question?

fed up with me because I ask a decent question in a very nice tone? fuck that. don't get the idea that I explode at her. I want to hear her answer to my question. She has ignored my questions every single day. if she is fed up with me than she can take it. I question everything. I am paranoid as fuck.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
But isn't God part of all? And isn't God by definition more powerful than any of his creations?

So, free will or not, evil can't consume God. Aaand, in the God-vs-Satan/good-vs-evil battle type thing, how could God possibly lose?

so if we are not at risk of being all evil due to freewill giving us the oppertunity to sin as we wish then does that mean freewill is actually null and void as there is no ramifications for our actions. In the end we are all a part of good, thus murder is good, rape is good, we no longer need to worry about the guidelines of leading a good life as god can't possibly lose. Its a human condition in my opinion, we create god, animals rape and kill yet god supposedly gives us freewill to choose if those things are wrong or right. How can we know if those things are wrong or right? perhaps god is all evil.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xgregx
evil over comes all things.
villany will always beat virture
"a virtuous mind dreams of what a wicked man does."
- Dead to Fall
if you don't think that statement is true then...wow.

I disagree entirely. If you believe that, then you are in no way Christian. In this world, sin my triumph, but I cannot concieve of a Christian saying it will win out in the next.

Originally posted by xgregx
fed up with me because I ask a decent question in a very nice tone? fuck that. don't get the idea that I explode at her. I want to hear her answer to my question. She has ignored my questions every single day. if she is fed up with me than she can take it. I question everything. I am paranoid as fuck.

Okay, you have my sympathy then. I went to an Anglican school for a coupla years. Fucking arseholes the lot of'em, the worst possible ad for the religion. Being called "pauper" by students for being a scholarship student, having teachers scream at my if I dared so much as say "excuse me sir?" not "excuse me please sir?" and having a mildly senile Chaplain who would invariably turn anything into a rant about alcohol or some societal ill meant that by the time I returned to the public school system, I was pretty much a violent little anti-Christian lefty bugger.

Actually, wait, nah, I was kinda fat, scratch out little.

Originally posted by straightXed
so if we are not at risk of being all evil due to freewill giving us the oppertunity to sin as we wish then does that mean freewill is actually null and void as there is no ramifications for our actions. In the end we are all a part of good, thus murder is good, rape is good, we no longer need to worry about the guidelines of leading a good life as god can't possibly lose. Its a human condition in my opinion, we create god, animals rape and kill yet god supposedly gives us freewill to choose if those things are wrong or right. How can we know if those things are wrong or right? perhaps god is all evil.

What you're basically saying is, as I read it, that if good (God) will win in the end, evil is part of good. Ummm, no.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
I disagree entirely. If you believe that, then you are in no way Christian. In this world, sin my triumph, but I cannot concieve of a Christian saying it will win out in the next.



Okay, you have my sympathy then. I went to an Anglican school for a coupla years. Fucking arseholes the lot of'em, the worst possible ad for the religion. Being called "pauper" by students for being a scholarship student, having teachers scream at my if I dared so much as say "excuse me sir?" not "excuse me please sir?" and having a mildly senile Chaplain who would invariably turn anything into a rant about alcohol or some societal ill meant that by the time I returned to the public school system, I was pretty much a violent little anti-Christian lefty bugger.

Actually, wait, nah, I was kinda fat, scratch out little.



What you're basically saying is, as I read it, that if good (God) will win in the end, evil is part of good. Ummm, no.

ummm, no doesn't cut it, i mean religions have been based on such principles.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Perhaps, as Sec is so fond of saying, I'm an illiterate nutter. I'm not sure if I understood your last post that well, could you please reword it? Religions have been based on...uh...what?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Perhaps, as Sec is so fond of saying, I'm an illiterate nutter. I'm not sure if I understood your last post that well, could you please reword it? Religions have been based on...uh...what?

religions have been based on the same principles you surmised from my post.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Such as?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Such as?

read the tong sing.

[xgregx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
I disagree entirely. If you believe that, then you are in no way Christian. In this world, sin my triumph, but I cannot concieve of a Christian saying it will win out in the next.

funny because a devout christian said that.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Strange. I mean, yeah, sin and evil prevail in this world, but...I can't see how any Christian could simultaneously believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing, ultimately-good God. How could such a god allow evil to triumph? How could evil defeat such a God?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Strange. I mean, yeah, sin and evil prevail in this world, but...I can't see how any Christian could simultaneously believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing, ultimately-good God. How could such a god allow evil to triumph? How could evil defeat such a God?

because god is man made evil.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by straightXed
because god is man made evil.

I somehow cannot see a Christian saying that.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
I somehow cannot see a Christian saying that.

Because they have all already accepted and annalised thier belief?

[xJoeyNormalx]

...that statement made absolutely no sense at all.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
...that statement made absolutely no sense at all.

then read it again, because its a question and its written correctly.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Indeed it is:

Originally posted by straightXed
Because they have all already accepted and annalised thier belief?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Indeed it is:

oh jeez, your picking up on grammar!?

[straightXed]

are you seriously saying you can't understand what i meant by those words?

[xMarcx]

Hi to everyone.
new here.

i was in my philosophy class, and my teacher is Christian, i aksed her:
"If heaven is perfect, and god too, how is it that the Devil succesfully rebelled and/or wanted to in the 1st place?"
Surely if heaven was perfect no-one would want to leave???

Anyone help me out on this one?

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by xMarcx
Hi to everyone.
new here.

i was in my philosophy class, and my teacher is Christian, i aksed her:
"If heaven is perfect, and god too, how is it that the Devil succesfully rebelled and/or wanted to in the 1st place?"
Surely if heaven was perfect no-one would want to leave???

Anyone help me out on this one?

If it is a philosophy class, then ask her where the logic in basing your life around something that cannot be proven is. To believe something just because a book says it is true, is foolheardy. There is no more proof that what the bible says is true, than when I say I am a millionare.

My understanding is that 'the devil' did not succesfully rebel, and that is why he is where he is. I'm pretty sure the bible makes it a little more complex than that.

[xMarcx]

Originally posted by Sean The Red
If it is a philosophy class, then ask her where the logic in basing your life around something that cannot be proven is. To believe something just because a book says it is true, is foolheardy. There is no more proof that what the bible says is true, than when I say I am a millionare.

My understanding is that 'the devil' did not succesfully rebel, and that is why he is where he is. I'm pretty sure the bible makes it a little more complex than that.

ok, point taken.
you see, she was talking about the concept of the whole "fight in the heavens" and stuff
and thats where my question developed from...And to add to that, can god be caapable of bieng Pissed off? if he can then its a direct contradiction of bieng perfect... Its a confusing course.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xMarcx
ok, point taken.
you see, she was talking about the concept of the whole "fight in the heavens" and stuff
and thats where my question developed from...And to add to that, can god be caapable of bieng Pissed off? if he can then its a direct contradiction of bieng perfect... Its a confusing course.

yeah, but then you're trying to judge god by human terms though, which is how religious folks get around these discussions.

[xMarcx]

Originally posted by xsecx
yeah, but then you're trying to judge god by human terms though, which is how religious folks get around these discussions.

but God has the possiblity or the omnipotence of bieng human.

I suppose we'll only ever argue and wont ever prove, becuase no one can be sure until we die...
But its still fun discussing this.
Something that really made me think too, was something she mentioned...it may be rheorical im not sure, but it was " Does good exist without evil?"
because without evil, how do we define good? does good need evil to exist, in wich case Evil has a purpose of goodness. My phrasing is terrible i apolagise.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xMarcx
but God has the possiblity or the omnipotence of bieng human.

I suppose we'll only ever argue and wont ever prove, becuase no one can be sure until we die...
But its still fun discussing this.
Something that really made me think too, was something she mentioned...it may be rheorical im not sure, but it was " Does good exist without evil?"
because without evil, how do we define good? does good need evil to exist, in wich case Evil has a purpose of goodness. My phrasing is terrible i apolagise.

yeah, but how can a human understand or question god?

[xMarcx]

well, we are his creation...we would be in some way connected, im not sure...i'd say, why would be created if we're not suppose to understand what created us? how can we apreciate, even worship something if we dont truly understand it?

Just to clear up, im rather open minded on religion...i was brought up Catholic, but now im more "sitting on the fence" as some might say.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xMarcx
well, we are his creation...we would be in some way connected, im not sure...i'd say, why would be created if we're not suppose to understand what created us? how can we apreciate, even worship something if we dont truly understand it?

Just to clear up, im rather open minded on religion...i was brought up Catholic, but now im more "sitting on the fence" as some might say.

yeah, but do you have the ability to create everything? How could you understand something that could?

personally, I don't believe in any of it but the above is the reason why it's really hard to argue religion with people because they have outs like faith and god.

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by xsecx
yeah, but do you have the ability to create everything? How could you understand something that could?

personally, I don't believe in any of it but the above is the reason why it's really hard to argue religion with people because they have outs like faith and god.

one the greatest problem I have with the concept of god, is that people are unable to explain it, which they use as some sort of evidence that it is true.