hahahhahhaha man this made my day

[SgtD]

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/World/041021/w102101A.html

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by SgtD
http://www.recorder.ca/cp/World/041021/w102101A.html

I heard part of that story on the radio today, but missed the part about the distance to havanna and was really confused. Santa Clara is also the name of a city about an hour from where I live... which didnt make sense how castro could return to havanna in his car...

[xsecx]

I can't wait until he finally dies.

[SgtD]

apperently i would be happy to shit on his grave

[xdaddydaycorex]

what do you guys think about Che Guevara being like this fashion statement and all prasied and made into some sort of hero though movies and stuff.
wasnt he just as bad as the army he fought against and didn't he help bring castro to power? i know a couple cubans who hate him and castro with a passion.

i found this site too. http://www.che-lives.com/

i dont know, but would love to hear what some of you think about him and the hip staus he seems to have these days.

[SgtD]

Originally posted by XracerX
what do you guys think about Che Guevara being like this fashion statement and all prasied and made into some sort of hero though movies and stuff.
wasnt he just as bad as the army he fought against and didn't he help bring castro to power? i know a couple cubans who hate him and castro with a passion.

i found this site too. http://www.che-lives.com/

i dont know, but would love to hear what some of you think about him and the hip staus he seems to have these days.

just take a look at my avatar.
" i'm che guevara. i worht more for you alive than dead."- when he was captured he said this.
i think the heroes are ordinary people. who you don't know about. heroes don't get printed on shirts. che was a huge communist, and he probably rolls in his casket raging what has he become.

[xdaddydaycorex]

Originally posted by SgtD
just take a look at my avatar.
" i'm che guevara. i worht more for you alive than dead."- when he was captured he said this.
i think the heroes are ordinary people. who you don't know about. heroes don't get printed on shirts. che was a huge communist, and he probably rolls in his casket raging what has he become.

so you think he was a good guy then?

[SgtD]

Originally posted by XracerX
so you think he was a good guy then?

MAN! IT SAYS" FUCK YOUR IDOLS"
i hate him, i hate his ideology, and i hate the fucking stupid kids with tshirts of him, and cccp shirt weaing fuckheads.
tomorrow it's the 38 anniversary of the revolution which hungary resisted the soviet power. kids at my age were up against tanks and rifles. and the stupidf fucking kid wears a communist asshole on his shirt?! my grandfatehr was hung up because he made a speech about free thinking. my dad was 10 days old then.
if i see someone with a red star or a cccp, or guevara shirt i walk towards and at least spit in his/her eyes.
i'm not joking around.

[xdaddydaycorex]

Originally posted by SgtD
MAN! IT SAYS" FUCK YOUR IDOLS"
i hate him, i hate his ideology, and i hate the fucking stupid kids with tshirts of him, and cccp shirt weaing fuckheads.
tomorrow it's the 38 anniversary of the revolution which hungary resisted the soviet power. kids at my age were up against tanks and rifles. and the stupidf fucking kid wears a communist asshole on his shirt?! my grandfatehr was hung up because he made a speech about free thinking. my dad was 10 days old then.
if i see someone with a red star or a cccp, or guevara shirt i walk towards and at least spit in his/her eyes.
i'm not joking around.
cool. this is pretty much how i feel too. my dad was special forces in korea and gets pretty upset when he sees that shit too.

[SgtD]

Originally posted by XracerX
cool. this is pretty much how i feel too. my dad was special forces in korea and gets pretty upset when he sees that shit too.

you know it's just as disgusting as a hitler's face goes fashion

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by SgtD
i hate him, i hate his ideology, and i hate the fucking stupid kids with tshirts of him, and cccp shirt weaing fuckheads.
tomorrow it's the 38 anniversary of the revolution which hungary resisted the soviet power. kids at my age were up against tanks and rifles. and the stupidf fucking kid wears a communist asshole on his shirt?! my grandfatehr was hung up because he made a speech about free thinking. my dad was 10 days old then.
if i see someone with a red star or a cccp, or guevara shirt i walk towards and at least spit in his/her eyes.
i'm not joking around.

Oh get real. You're going to pick fights with kids in red star shirts because of what Kruschev and his government did in Hungary almost 50 years ago? Quit the tough guy talk.

Your irrational anti-communism only seems stupid.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Oh get real. You're going to pick fights with kids in red star shirts because of what Kruschev and his government did in Hungary almost 40 years ago? Quit the tough guy talk.

Your irrational anti-communism only seems stupid.

would you say the same to someone who had a problem with swastikas and nazis?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
would you say the same to someone who had a problem with swastikas and nazis?

No.

Would it sound sane to you if I posted about beating up people with the star spangled banner on their clothes?

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
No.

Would it sound sane to you if I posted about beating up people with the star spangled banner on their clothes?

if that person was from a country that within recent history occupied oppresively, then yes. Like for instance iraq. or afghanistan.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
if that person was from a country that within recent history occupied oppresively, then yes. Like for instance iraq. or afghanistan.

Why? Does wearing a shirt with the American flag equal supporting all oppression that's been carried out in it's name? No, it does not.

I don't have a right to start shit with people wearing USA-shirts just because I grew up in Nicaragua in the 80's and I don't have a right to start shit with anyone in a CCCP-shirt just because my grandfather got shot by Soviet troops. Neither does anyone else.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Why? Does wearing a shirt with the American flag equal supporting all oppression that's been carried out in it's name? No, it does not.

I don't have a right to start shit with people wearing USA-shirts just because I grew up in Nicaragua in the 80's and I don't have a right to start shit with anyone in a CCCP-shirt just because my grandfather got shot by Soviet troops. Neither does anyone else.

why not? because it's something you feel positive about and do? It's not like the soviet's stopped fucking hungary 40 years ago. How can you fault someone who grew up under a communist regime, who's still dealing with the effects and who had their personal life effected by it? How can you fault them for doing that, but not fault someone for doing the same to the nazis?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
why not? because it's something you feel positive about and do? It's not like the soviet's stopped fucking hungary 40 years ago. How can you fault someone who grew up under a communist regime, who's still dealing with the effects and who had their personal life effected by it? How can you fault them for doing that, but not fault someone for doing the same to the nazis?

He/she grew up under a communist regime and now talks about randomly spitting in the face of people wearing t-shirts with Che or red stars on them. That means taking your frustration out on people who most probably didn't have anything to do with the political oppression in Hungary during the cold war and who most probably do not support the idea of such oppression. People can only be held responsible for their own views and actions. I can't believe you're even debating my right to call myself a communist without getting spit in my face, or worse.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
He/she grew up under a communist regime and now talks about randomly spitting in the face of people wearing t-shirts with Che or red stars on them. That means taking your frustration out on people who most probably didn't have anything to do with the political oppression in Hungary during the cold war and who most probably do not support the idea of such oppression. People can only be held responsible for their own views and actions. I can't believe you're even debating my right to call myself a communist without getting spit in my face, or worse.

why not? you have no problem with it happening to someone who is a nazi? why is there a double standard? both groups had done some seriously horrible shit under their respective titles. if someone is going to then wear shirts that use symbolism from those groups, why shouldn't they be challenged?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
why not? you have no problem with it happening to someone who is a nazi? why is there a double standard? both groups had done some seriously horrible shit under their respective titles. if someone is going to then wear shirts that use symbolism from those groups, why shouldn't they be challenged?

You can't attack people for crimes they didn't commit and have never supported. Easy as that. If someone has a red star on their shirt, chances are still very small that they support the idea of a repressive system like communist Hungary's while a person wearing a shirt with a swastika is very likely to agree with NSDAP and Hitler. Not that I think anyone has the right to go around spitting nazis in the face either but I certainly wouldn't get into an argument trying to defend some nazi.

Also, it's sad to see how quick you are to compare communists to nazis. I don't like getting my personal beliefs and ideas associated with an ideology of fascism and racism.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
You can't attack people for crimes they didn't commit and have never supported. Easy as that. If someone has a red star on their shirt, chances are still very small that they support the idea of a repressive system like communist Hungary's while a person wearing a shirt with a swastika is very likely to agree with NSDAP and Hitler. Not that I think anyone has the right to go around spitting nazis in the face either but I certainly wouldn't get into an argument trying to defend some nazi.

Also, it's sad to see how quick you are to compare communists to nazis. I don't like getting my personal beliefs and ideas associated with an ideology of fascism and racism.

Why can't you? Because it's about you and not about someone else? If someone is wearing a symbol of the soviets, why can't you assume they agree with it?

Did the pogroms happen? when you wear symbols of the ussr and the cccp you take ALL of it's history with it.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
Why can't you? Because it's about you and not about someone else? If someone is wearing a symbol of the soviets, why can't you assume they agree with it?

Did the pogroms happen? when you wear symbols of the ussr and the cccp you take ALL of it's history with it.

First of all, the post I first answered on included red stars and pictures of Che, which are not symbols tied to the Soviet Union or any other country.

Second of all, if you hold every person wearing a symbol of a nation responsible for the whole history of that nation, all country flags would be completely unacceptable to wear. Wearing a shirt that says CCCP is nothing like wearing a shirt with a picture of Stalin. USSR wasn't just a political experiment, it was a whole country. A Soviet flag or a shirt saying CCCP are not always political symbols, they're first national symbols for USSR. For example, people waving Soviet banners in the audience at Russia's hockey games don't do so because they wanna show support for Breshnev, they do so to honor the great Soviet hockey teams.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
First of all, the post I first answered on included red stars and pictures of Che, which are not symbols tied to the Soviet Union or any other country.

Second of all, if you hold every person wearing a symbol of a nation responsible for the whole history of that nation, all country flags would be completely unacceptable to wear. Wearing a shirt that says CCCP is nothing like wearing a shirt with a picture of Stalin. USSR wasn't just a political experiment, it was a whole country. A Soviet flag or a shirt saying CCCP are not always political symbols, they're first national symbols for USSR. For example, people waving Soviet banners in the audience at Russia's hockey games don't do so because they wanna show support for Breshnev, they do so to honor the great Soviet hockey teams.


all of your logic can also be used for the nazi's. like i said, the only reason you care is because it's about you. It all boils down to the fact that there are people that don't like commies and don't want it coming back and will challenge it. just like there are people who don't like nazi's and don't want it coming back and will challenge it.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
all of your logic can also be used for the nazi's. like i said, the only reason you care is because it's about you. It all boils down to the fact that there are people that don't like commies and don't want it coming back and will challenge it. just like there are people who don't like nazi's and don't want it coming back and will challenge it.

You know nothing of what reasons I have. Of course I would be happy if everyone liked communists, but I understand that such is not the case. Anyone that dislikes communism or communists has every right to challenge us and our ideology. I've never said no one should question communism. However, I won't take shit from people who feel they have a right to 'at least' spit in my face because they see me wearing a shirt with a red star on it.

The whole debate is absurd. SgtD posts trying to come of as tough, basically saying how he/she has a right to start shit with me because I am a communist and/or wear clothes with certain symbols. I post an answer and you quickly jump in to argue my post. I don't see what it is that's so shocking about me not accepting people spitting in my face because of my beliefs.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
You know nothing of what reasons I have. Of course I would be happy if everyone liked communists, but I understand that such is not the case. Anyone that dislikes communism or communists has every right to challenge us and our ideology. I've never said no one should question communism. However, I won't take shit from people who feel they have a right to 'at least' spit in my face because they see me wearing a shirt with a red star on it.

The whole debate is absurd. SgtD posts trying to come of as tough, basically saying how he/she has a right to start shit with me because I am a communist and/or wear clothes with certain symbols. I post an answer and you quickly jump in to argue my post. I don't see what it is that's so shocking about me not accepting people spitting in my face because of my beliefs.

because you somehow ignore the fact that they have a very valid reason to violenty oppose communism. to you it's just a political belief. to them it's more. The debate isn't absurd at all. If you want to be something, you take what goes along with it. ANd in this case and in others, there are violent repercussions to voicing your beliefs, especially when it's viewed as a threat to others.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
because you somehow ignore the fact that they have a very valid reason to violenty oppose communism. to you it's just a political belief. to them it's more. The debate isn't absurd at all. If you want to be something, you take what goes along with it. ANd in this case and in others, there are violent repercussions to voicing your beliefs, especially when it's viewed as a threat to others.

So in other words you endorse, or at least support, violence against communists? That sounds pretty damn absurd to me.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
So in other words you endorse, or at least support, violence against communists? That sounds pretty damn absurd to me.

why is it absurd? especially when we're talking about former soviet bloc countries.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
why is it absurd? especially when we're talking about former soviet bloc countries.

Are you even serious? You think I deserve getting treated with violence from people I don't know for things I didn't have anything to do with or ideas I have never supported? I am not responsible for what happened to them, and they have no right accusing me of such things.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Are you even serious? You think I deserve getting treated with violence from people I don't know for things I didn't have anything to do with or ideas I have never supported? I am not responsible for what happened to them, and they have no right accusing me of such things.

I'm completely serious. How does what you just said not apply to nazis? You are aligning yourself to something that has negative connotations to people. By doing so you taking responsbility for whatever comes of it. I find it amazing that you think people don't have any reason to hate communism or would want to make sure it never came back.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
I'm completely serious. How does what you just said not apply to nazis? You are aligning yourself to something that has negative connotations to people. By doing so you taking responsbility for whatever comes of it. I find it amazing that you think people don't have any reason to hate communism or would want to make sure it never came back.

Now you're putting words in my mouth to take focus off your absurd stance. When did I say anyone has a right to use violence against nazis either? When did I say that people who hate communism has no reason at all for doing so? I am a communist and I can understand that people some people from eastern Europe will hate me because of it. Does that give them any right to be violent against me? Of course not.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Now you're putting words in my mouth to take focus off your absurd stance. When did I say anyone has a right to use violence against nazis either? When did I say that people who hate communism has no reason at all for doing so? I am a communist and I can understand that people some people from eastern Europe will hate me because of it. Does that give them any right to be violent against me? Of course not.

why doesn't it? do you honestly believe that any belief can be expoused without repercussions. shit dude. wars were fought over it for fucksake.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
why doesn't it? do you honestly believe that any belief can be expoused without repercussions. shit dude. wars were fought over it for fucksake.

You seem to lack basic democratic values. I know being a communist involves a risk of physical repercussion. I allready have a scar from 6 stiches in my face because I am a communist. That's not the point. The point is that active violence directed at communists (or people in general for that sake) because of our ideology is not justified and not righteous.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
You seem to lack basic democratic values. I know being a communist involves a risk of physical repercussion. I allready have a scar from 6 stiches in my face because I am a communist. That's not the point. The point is that active violence directed at communists (or people in general for that sake) because of our ideology is not justified and not righteous.

You seem to lack a basic understanding of how the world actually works. You think that your ideology doesn't have negative repercussions that people feel violently oppossed to. It's the same with racism. your beliefs carry shit along with it, THAT WARS HAVE BEEN FOUGHT OVER. and you somehow think you shouldn't? too bad. that's how it is.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
You seem to lack a basic understanding of how the world actually works. You think that your ideology doesn't have negative repercussions that people feel violently oppossed to. It's the same with racism. your beliefs carry shit along with it, THAT WARS HAVE BEEN FOUGHT OVER. and you somehow think you shouldn't? too bad. that's how it is.

Did you even read my last post? I know many people, communists and others, get in trouble because of their political views. Hell, people even get beat up for supporting the wrong team in sports leagues. What I've been saying is that it's not justified and I am not going to put up with people spitting in my face or in other ways starting shit with me over things I've got nothing to do with.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Did you even read my last post? I know many people, communists and others, get in trouble because of their political views. Hell, people even get beat up for supporting the wrong team in sports leagues. What I've been saying is that it's not justified and I am not going to put up with people spitting in my face or in other ways starting shit with me over things I've got nothing to do with.

you're a communist. you have something to do with it.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
you're a communist. you have something to do with it.

Oh really? In what way?

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Oh really? In what way?

by calling yourself a communist you are alligning yourself with everything ever done, the good and the bad, in the name of communism.

how aren't you?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
by calling yourself a communist you are alligning yourself with everything ever done, the good and the bad, in the name of communism.

how aren't you?

By that logic all people with connections to a political ideology deserve getting a beating from someone. For example all liberals should expect getting their asses kicked for the crimes of Pinochet. We can't have it that way.

Today, being a communist means believing in marxist philosophy, supporting the vision of a communist society and actively working for the general benefit of the working class. To me it also means identifying myself with the major Swedish communist movement and it's history on a national and local scale.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
By that logic all people with connections to a political ideology deserve getting a beating from someone. For example all liberals should expect getting their asses kicked for the crimes of Pinochet. We can't have it that way.

Today, being a communist means believing in marxist philosophy, supporting the vision of a communist society and actively working for the general benefit of the working class. To me it also means identifying myself with the major Swedish communist movement and it's history on a national and local scale.

no, that statement doesn't hold or fit the logic. "liberal" isn't a party. "liberals" aren't a political movement with a shared history. You take the symbolism and the name and you take everything that goes along with it. you don't want it? don't call yourself a communist.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
no, that statement doesn't hold or fit the logic. "liberal" isn't a party. "liberals" aren't a political movement with a shared history. You take the symbolism and the name and you take everything that goes along with it. you don't want it? don't call yourself a communist.

So only communists and nazis are responsible for what has been done in their ideology's name? How is liberalism any less of a political ideology with a shared history than communism? Communism isn't a party either. How can you judge me by one set of rules and then say they don't apply to you as well?

Not calling myself a communist would simply be a lie.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
So only communists and nazis are responsible for what has been done in their ideology's name? How is liberalism any less of a political ideology with a shared history than communism? Communism isn't a party either. How can you judge me by one set of rules and then say they don't apply to you as well?

Not calling myself a communist would simply be a lie.

so there aren't communist parties now? how is liberalism anything other than a generic term? What is the liberal manifesto? What is the history of liberalism through time? Where are the liberal parties?

then enjoy getting spit in the face when you wear the hammer and sickle.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
so there aren't communist parties now? how is liberalism anything other than a generic term? What is the liberal manifesto? What is the history of liberalism through time? Where are the liberal parties?

then enjoy getting spit in the face when you wear the hammer and sickle.

There are plenty of liberal parties all over the world. Old writings of Adam Smith are just as much of a common base for liberals as the communist manifesto used to be to communists. To me you have still not provided any thought through reasons as to why communists are to be accused for the wrong doings of all other communists, while liberals are not guilty for the actions of other liberals.

[SgtD]

i'm not going to start senseless arguing with you.
you think i'm just talking shit, and want to be tough. if i see a communist, it just disgusts me. yes, i start shit, and started fights along the way becasue of political reasons.that's just the truth. we take care of nazis and communists over here. i think being a communist is as bad as being a nazi.

and there are two kinds of communism:
1. that exists, but doesn't work
2. that works but doesn't exists

maybe you're a communist because you live in sweden.
and it makes me sick that you started your little monologue at this day.

reply if you want but i'm not gonna read this thread ever.
hope your brainwash is temporary kid.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by SgtD
i'm not going to start senseless arguing with you.
you think i'm just talking shit, and want to be tough. if i see a communist, it just disgusts me. yes, i start shit, and started fights along the way becasue of political reasons.that's just the truth. we take care of nazis and communists over here. i think being a communist is as bad as being a nazi.

and there are two kinds of communism:
1. that exists, but doesn't work
2. that works but doesn't exists

maybe you're a communist because you live in sweden.
and it makes me sick that you started your little monologue at this day.

reply if you want but i'm not gonna read this thread ever.
hope your brainwash is temporary kid.

You make me sick. Thinking you have some god given right to beat me up because of my opinions. Nutter.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
There are plenty of liberal parties all over the world. Old writings of Adam Smith are just as much of a common base for liberals as the communist manifesto used to be to communists. To me you have still not provided any thought through reasons as to why communists are to be accused for the wrong doings of all other communists, while liberals are not guilty for the actions of other liberals.

what's a liberal then? what's the shared doctorine? What genocide have they done in the name of liberalism? What is liberalism if not a generic catch all term for anyone not conservative? What are the shared symbolism?

And of course to you I haven't, because you don't want to look at it from any perspecitive than, I want to do what I want and not be held accountable for it. It's as simple as, you align yourself with the communist party, you're chosing and using a term that associates you with every other communist party in existance. If you don't want to be, then don't. You do, so take your lumps.

[xvunderx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
You make me sick. Thinking you have some god given right to beat me up because of my opinions. Nutter.

The thing is if you go out in a hammer and sickle shirt, you are saying to people who live in countries like hungary "I support what happened to you, and hope it happenes again, and to countires all over the world" "your pain is my ideal" That is a very personal statement to make and is as powerful as going up to that person as a slap in the face.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
what's a liberal then? what's the shared doctorine? What genocide have they done in the name of liberalism? What is liberalism if not a generic catch all term for anyone not conservative? What are the shared symbolism?

And of course to you I haven't, because you don't want to look at it from any perspecitive than, I want to do what I want and not be held accountable for it. It's as simple as, you align yourself with the communist party, you're chosing and using a term that associates you with every other communist party in existance. If you don't want to be, then don't. You do, so take your lumps.

A liberal is someone who believes in capitalism and liberal democracy. The oppression and murders of left wingers in Chile during the reign of Pinochet is a classic examle of genocide in the name of liberalism. Liberalism is definately not a catch term for anyone who isn't conservative. I am not conservative, but no one thinks I am a liberal either.

And what authority decided that communists alone bear full responsibility for the actions of other communists? You're the one having double standards. You judge me by one set of rules and then say they don't apply to you. When you're asked why you post some vague answers saying that liberalism is not a political ideology. Just because the term liberal seems to be watered out in American media doesn't mean that it's not an ideology in reality. It is a political ideology and there are plenty of liberal parties. Just like with communism.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xvunderx
The thing is if you go out in a hammer and sickle shirt, you are saying to people who live in countries like hungary "I support what happened to you, and hope it happenes again, and to countires all over the world" "your pain is my ideal" That is a very personal statement to make and is as powerful as going up to that person as a slap in the face.

No. All a person in a shirt with the hammer and sickle on is saying is that he/she is a communist. Nothing more or less. If someone else wants to interpret the message in a different way they are free to do that, but it does not give them the right to harrass communists.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
A liberal is someone who believes in capitalism and liberal democracy. The oppression and murders of left wingers in Chile during the reign of Pinochet is a classic examle of genocide in the name of liberalism. Liberalism is definately not a catch term for anyone who isn't conservative. I am not conservative, but no one thinks I am a liberal either.

And what authority decided that communists alone bear full responsibility for the actions of other communists? You're the one having double standards. You judge me by one set of rules and then say they don't apply to you. When you're asked why you post some vague answers saying that liberalism is not a political ideology. Just because the term liberal seems to be watered out in American media doesn't mean that it's not an ideology in reality. It is a political ideology and there are plenty of liberal parties. Just like with communism.

you can't use a term to define itself. you also didn't define what it meant. what it's core beliefs are, how it relates globally to all "liberals", what the shared symbolism is.

When you can answer the above, then you can talk about double standards. You're trying to draw a parellel that isn't there. Do communists share core beliefs? Do they used shared symbolism? the better and more correct parellel is between communists and nazi's. You just think you somehow can call yourself a communist but not have to deal with shit that comes along with it.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
you can't use a term to define itself. you also didn't define what it meant. what it's core beliefs are, how it relates globally to all "liberals", what the shared symbolism is.

When you can answer the above, then you can talk about double standards. You're trying to draw a parellel that isn't there. Do communists share core beliefs? Do they used shared symbolism? the better and more correct parellel is between communists and nazi's. You just think you somehow can call yourself a communist but not have to deal with shit that comes along with it.

How are communists sharing more core beliefs than liberals? Communists want a socialist and later a communist society, liberals want a democratic capitalist society. That's the core ideas for both ideologies and as I see, they're almost equally vague visions. You still fail to provide reasons as to why you think that communists are more connected with each other as a group than liberals. Thus, you've also failed to provide real solid reasons to why communists can be held guilty as a group while liberals can not. You're the one accusing me and you're the one who want to set double standards, so it's you who need to provide reasons for your thinking.

Of course I feel I can call myself a communist just like people where I lived always called themselves communists without taking part in some oppressive government. There's a long history in Sweden with the major communist party consistantly fighting for democracy and civil rights, never againts it. To me, being a communist means fighting for socialism and believing in the vision of a communist society, that's also what it means to the communist movement here. Who are you to say that you as some self acknowledged authority has more right to define communism than the communist movement itself? If people wanna act stupid and apply their own thoughts of what communism is on me, then they're free to do so. It's their loss for blocking themself from thinking with an open mind. When they take it to the next level and attacks me on basis of what they've chosen to believe communism is about, that's when I get pissed.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
How are communists sharing more core beliefs than liberals? Communists want a socialist and later a communist society, liberals want a democratic capitalist society. That's the core ideas for both ideologies and as I see, they're almost equally vague visions. You still fail to provide reasons as to why you think that communists are more connected with each other as a group than liberals. Thus, you've also failed to provide real solid reasons to why communists can be held guilty as a group while liberals can not. You're the one accusing me and you're the one who want to set double standards, so it's you who need to provide reasons for your thinking.

Of course I feel I can call myself a communist just like people where I lived always called themselves communists without taking part in some oppressive government. There's a long history in Sweden with the major communist party consistantly fighting for democracy and civil rights, never againts it. To me, being a communist means fighting for socialism and believing in the vision of a communist society, that's also what it means to the communist movement here. Who are you to say that you as some self acknowledged authority has more right to define communism than the communist movement itself? If people wanna act stupid and apply their own thoughts of what communism is on me, then they're free to do so. It's their loss for blocking themself from thinking with an open mind. When they take it to the next level and attacks me on basis of what they've chosen to believe communism is about, that's when I get pissed.

You really don't spend much time in reality do you? You fail to answer any of the questions I provide, because you can't. because they 2 aren't parellel. what is the shared symbolism? Where are cases of liberals using liberals from other countries in propaganda as a standard? Where can I buy liberal shirts? What do they look like?

Again, it's not a matter of me not proving, but you failing to accept it. Have you spent any time trying to distant yourself or explain how you're different? Or just whined about how you shouldn't be associated with other communists, even though it's pretty standard for communists to refer to other communists and to use common symbolism. And you're going to try and tell me that they should all be treated differently?

[xsecx]

to illustrate my point

http://www.skp.se/

you have the hammer and sickle. now try and tell me why you shouldn't be held acocuntable?

[noman]

Originally posted by xsecx
to illustrate my point

http://www.skp.se/

you have the hammer and sickle. now try and tell me why you shouldn't be held acocuntable?

i wish i could read that, wanna summarize,

and umm my little point of view about this hole thing is that if your going to call yourself a communist then your going to have to take everything with it, all there "mistakes", murders, and pointless massacres.

By calling yourself a communist you support everything they have ever done, and being spit at is the LEAST that should happen considering all the shit that they layed upon the world. communists, facists, and many other non-peaceful or aggresive political parties should be exterminated, not by changeing there view but if neccesary execution. you got a problem with that lets hear* it, im not speaking to a person im speaking to a murderer.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
You really don't spend much time in reality do you? You fail to answer any of the questions I provide, because you can't. because they 2 aren't parellel. what is the shared symbolism? Where are cases of liberals using liberals from other countries in propaganda as a standard? Where can I buy liberal shirts? What do they look like?

Again, it's not a matter of me not proving, but you failing to accept it. Have you spent any time trying to distant yourself or explain how you're different? Or just whined about how you shouldn't be associated with other communists, even though it's pretty standard for communists to refer to other communists and to use common symbolism. And you're going to try and tell me that they should all be treated differently?

I spend my whole life in reality. Just because the political views and debate are completely different here than they are over in America it does not mean that they're any less real. People here do not associate me with the commmunist parties of the east bloc beacuse I call myself a communist. That's reality. As a communist, I've never refered to another country as an example of how Swedish society as a whole should be. Liberals around here however used to refer to USA as such and example pretty frequently until Bush became president and now they're frequently using UK as an example of how what they want Sweden to become. The international connections are there, just like they used to be in the communist movement. If your argument boils down to the existance of communist symbols and the lack of such symbols for liberalism, then surely you're not providing a good solid reasoning for separate treatment of both groups.

As a matter of fact I am telling you that all communists should be treated differently, yes. Just like every other person are treated by others based on who they are, what they think and what they do. You say I am just whining and haven't distanced myself enough from actions and opinions of some of the other communists? Maybe that's because I've had to focus on other basic issues and defending them in this debate. For example, when I have to get into long serious debates just defending my right to not getting beat up by random people I might just feel that the climate of debate isn't really on the level where it would matter if I elaborate around my views on the old socialist states in East Europe. In case there's any doubt about it, I can state here that I don't support and that I have never supported any politically motivated repressive action taken by a state against it's citizens in the name of socialism or communism.

It's interestnig to see how you're constantly trying to get this debate to wander of and deal with all other things than the original issue. This debate started just because I stood up for my natural right to not have people start fights with me.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
to illustrate my point

http://www.skp.se/

you have the hammer and sickle. now try and tell me why you shouldn't be held acocuntable?

1. I am not a member of SKP.

2. The hammer and sickle is first and foremost a symbol of the communist movement. Not a particular state, party or leader.

[noman]

its irrelavant if you get into a fight or get spit on because of what you believe, if you believe that strongly that your right you better damn well defend yourself or all your proving is that you know your wrong.

If someone had shit with me because im edge id fight them to an inch of theyre life, if a edge kid murdered someone then i would accept that they did that, its still my right to believe im right but i will fight.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
i wish i could read that, wanna summarize,

and umm my little point of view about this hole thing is that if your going to call yourself a communist then your going to have to take everything with it, all there "mistakes", murders, and pointless massacres.

By calling yourself a communist you support everything they have ever done, and being spit at is the LEAST that should happen considering all the shit that they layed upon the world. communists, facists, and many other non-peaceful or aggresive political parties should be exterminated, not by changeing there view but if neccesary execution. you got a problem with that lets hear* it, im not speaking to a person im speaking to a murderer.

Who are you to decide what I have to do and/or support to get to call myself a communist? Isn't that something that should be up to communist movements, or at least society in general, to decide?

No matter what I ever say or think you can't hold me responsible as a murderer unless I actually have murdered someone.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
its irrelavant if you get into a fight or get spit on because of what you believe, if you believe that strongly that your right you better damn well defend yourself or all your proving is that you know your wrong.

If someone had shit with me because im edge id fight them to an inch of theyre life, if a edge kid murdered someone then i would accept that they did that, its still my right to believe im right but i will fight.

What the hell was the point behind this post, other than you trying to squeeze in a point about what a tought guy you are who fight for your sxe label? I fight in self defence and I do not accept people spitting in my face.

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
What the hell was the point behind this post, other than you trying to squeeze in a point about what a tought guy you are who fight for your sxe label? I fight in self defence and I do not accept people spitting in my face.

im not tough at all, all im saying is the fact that if someone was going to oppse me then i will defend my views on what im thinking, your saying that it isnt there right to oppose you then why dont you step up and fight for your beliefs instead of bitching about how im wrong for expressing how i feel. from my views im giving you an exaple because id be ashamed to even associate myself with a communist that wont take the full responsibilty for what they did....like the nazis, right now if they decided that hitler was wrong for what he did but still wanted to have the parties view would they be right for dropping him.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
im not tough at all, all im saying is the fact that if someone was going to oppse me then i will defend my views on what im thinking, your saying that it isnt there right to oppose you then why dont you step up and fight for your beliefs instead of bitching about how im wrong for expressing how i feel. from my views im giving you an exaple because id be ashamed to even associate myself with a communist that wont take the full responsibilty for what they did....like the nazis, right now if they decided that hitler was wrong for what he did but still wanted to have the parties view would they be right for dropping him.

I've never said that people don't have a right to oppose me. I've pointed out that I think they have that right many times. I do not however, see where they have a right to use violence against me or go around spitting in my face.

Would you also be ashamed to associate yourself with xsecx because he is a liberal but won't take full responsibility for the murders of Pinochet or Somoza?

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I've never said that people don't have a right to oppose me. I've pointed out that I think they have that right many times. I do not however, see where they have a right to use violence against me or go around spitting in my face.

Would you also be ashamed to associate yourself with xsecx because he is a liberal but won't take full responsibility for the murders of Pinochet or Somoza?

they would spit in your face because of the fact that your supporting mass murderers, not because you are you, its because your supporting it. theyre in a way not spitting on you, just your beliefs,

and its irrelavent what dusty thinks because thats his right, and politics got shitdidly relavance to edge in this situation, so that really doesnt give an example at all.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
they would spit in your face because of the fact that your supporting mass murderers, not because you are you, its because your supporting it. theyre in a way not spitting on you, just your beliefs,

and its irrelavent what dusty thinks because thats his right, and politics got shitdidly relavance to edge in this situation, so that really doesnt give an example at all.

No, they are clearly spitting on me. Despite of the fact that I've never supported mass murderers and despite they know nothing about who I am and what I think. How could they spit on my beliefs without even figuring them out first?

So I have to take full responsibility for the actions of other communists because I am a commmunist but xsecx does not have to take any responsibility for the actions of other liberals though he is a liberal? How does that make sense?

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
No, they are clearly spitting on me. Despite of the fact that I've never supported mass murderers and despite they know nothing about who I am and what I think. How could they spit on my beliefs without even figuring them out first?

So I have to take full responsibility for the actions of other communists because I am a commmunist but xsecx does not have to take any responsibility for the actions of other liberals though he is a liberal? How does that make sense?

because your supporting communist its simple as that, they dont need to know what part your supporting or not, because no matter how you look at it, communist have done some really screwed up shit with theyre countries. Im not saying that HE doesnt have to take responsibilty for what other liberals are saying, but what im saying is that im not taking responisibilty for his political beliefs just because im edge and he is to, that is irrelavant for that one standpoint.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
because your supporting communist its simple as that, they dont need to know what part your supporting or not, because no matter how you look at it, communist have done some really screwed up shit with theyre countries. Im not saying that HE doesnt have to take responsibilty for what other liberals are saying, but what im saying is that im not taking responisibilty for his political beliefs just because im edge and he is to, that is irrelavant for that one standpoint.

I agree that you definitely do not have to take responsibility for any political ideas xsecx has just because you're both sxe. That wouldn't make sense, and I never suggested such a thing. My point is, if everyone supporting an ideology has to take full responsibility for what has been done in it's name everyone interested in politics would be guilty of murdering people and everyone supporting an ideology would deserve getting spit in the face or beat up because of their views. Surely you must understand that we can't have it that way.

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I agree that you definitely do not have to take responsibility for any political ideas xsecx has just because you're both sxe. That wouldn't make sense, and I never suggested such a thing. My point is, if everyone supporting an ideology has to take full responsibility for what has been done in it's name everyone interested in politics would be guilty of murdering people and everyone supporting an ideology would deserve getting spit in the face or beat up because of their views. Surely you must understand that we can't have it that way.

so i guess what your saying is that the murders were justified, wow that makes so much sense when you compare it to being spit on.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
so i guess what your saying is that the murders were justified, wow that makes so much sense when you compare it to being spit on.

Where did I say the murders were justified?

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Where did I say the murders were justified?

well you must atleast think that being as how your supporting the political party, i mean unless you dont really care about life aslong as your ideals are fulfilled.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
well you must atleast think that being as how your supporting the political party, i mean unless you dont really care about life aslong as your ideals are fulfilled.

The political party that I am a member of have not had any murders carried out.

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
The political party that I am a member of have not had any murders carried out.

so ur not a communist, make your damn mind up man.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
so ur not a communist, make your damn mind up man.

Yes I am a communist. The communist movement here in Sweden has never had any murders carried out.

[SgtD]

i know i said a few pages back that i'm not gonna reply.

what the fuck, man?! it's clear that noone wants your communist shit here. so stop arguing and feel free to shut the fuck up!

and if you ask who am i to tell you this i would say: i am my own master and who are you to tell me what not to tell?

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Yes I am a communist. The communist movement here in Sweden has never had any murders carried out.

but if your a communist then you STILL have to ackowledge the fact that your supporting a govermental stasis that murders* people that dont completly agree, so lets see what your pretty much saying is that you want a bunch of murderers* in office....makes sense to me (sarcasm)

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
but if your a communist then you STILL have to ackowledge the fact that your supporting a govermental stasis that muders people that dont completly agree, so lets see what your pretty much saying is that you want a bunch of murders in office....makes sense to me (sarcasm)

Communism as an ideology does not advocate murdering people of different opinion.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by SgtD
i know i said a few pages back that i'm not gonna reply.

what the fuck, man?! it's clear that noone wants your communist shit here. so stop arguing and feel free to shut the fuck up!

and if you ask who am i to tell you this i would say: i am my own master and who are you to tell me what not to tell?

You don't like me being a communist and posting here? Tough luck, I am.

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Communism as an ideology does not advocate murdering people of different opinion.

its kinda funny that you just said that, but i already have 2 people murdered because of your political beliefs, plus thousands more do to war because of communism.

[SgtD]

Originally posted by Hoffen
You don't like me being a communist and posting here? Tough luck, I am.
yeah, i don't like it.
but you can realise that nobody agrees with you, so there's no point arguing
and yeah i wouldn't mind if you'd blow the corrupted brain of yours with a gun

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
its kinda funny that you just said that, but i already have 2 people murdered because of your political beliefs, plus thousands more do to war because of communism.

How are those murders and wars ideologically connected with communism?

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
How are those murders and wars ideologically connected with communism?

im getting the feeling that your slow or something, lets see...they were executed for opposing the communist party??? maby you should pull your head outa your ass and realize that.....and the wars? umm lets see..no one wants a communist asshole with there finger on the nuke button now do we?

[SgtD]

Originally posted by Hoffen
How are those murders and wars ideologically connected with communism?
are you retarded?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by SgtD
yeah, i don't like it.
but you can realise that nobody agrees with you, so there's no point arguing
Isn't disagreement the base for all arguing?
Originally posted by SgtD
and yeah i wouldn't mind if you'd blow the corrupted brain of yours with a gun
Booo hooo.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
im getting the feeling that your slow or something, lets see...they were executed for opposing the communist party??? maby you should pull your head outa your ass and realize that.....and the wars? umm lets see..no one wants a communist asshole with there finger on the nuke button now do we?

But were those executions carried out in accordance to the communist ideology or were they just murders by corrupt government in the name of communist ideology? If you wanna link the murders to the idea of communism, then please explain to me what in the communist ideology that requires executions of political opponents to work.

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
But were those executions carried out in accordance to the communist ideology or were they just murders by corrupt government in the name of communist ideology? If you wanna link the murders to the idea of communism, then please explain to me what in the communist ideology that requires executions of political opponents to work.

no matter how you look at it, the communist idealogy WONT WORK if theres the smallest amount of rebelllion, so no matter how much you fight to try and make the executions stop it isnt going to work. corruption is a part of every goverment but im not seeing any executions of free speakers around any of the NORMAL countries.

[SgtD]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Isn't disagreement the base for all arguing?
yeah it is , but noone needs that shit over here i guess.
Booo hooo.
oh, baby's crying! let's give him a hammer and a sickle to play with

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
no matter how you look at it, the communist idealogy WONT WORK if theres the smallest amount of rebelllion, so no matter how much you fight to try and make the executions stop it isnt going to work. corruption is a part of every goverment but im not seeing any executions of free speakers around any of the NORMAL countries.

Socialism and communism could work even with political opponents within the states. There's no real need for executions.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by SgtD
oh, baby's crying! let's give him a hammer and a sickle to play with

Not original or funny. Not even insulting for that matter.

[SgtD]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Not original or funny. Not even insulting for that matter.
of course it's not. but your comment was original and funny and even insulting

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Socialism and communism could work even with political opponents within the states. There's no real need for executions.
then why the fuck would they do that to people, dude your shit dumb for supporting murders that all i got to say to you, im not goin to waste my time on some facist bitch that only looks at the world in his own way and picks and chooses from a goverment that murders its own citizens, congradulations, you have just made my dumbass of the day list.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by SgtD
of course it's not. but your comment was original and funny and even insulting

Do you normally expect charming and witty answers when you tell people to blow their brains out?

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Do you normally expect charming and witty answers when you tell people to blow their brains out?

no actually, we both sit and hope that no one replys.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
then why the fuck would they do that to people, dude your shit dumb for supporting murders that all i got to say to you, im not goin to waste my time on some facist bitch that only looks at the world in his own way and picks and chooses from a goverment that murders its own citizens, congradulations, you have just made my dumbass of the day list.

They did that because they were dictators who feared getting overthrown by their people, isn't that pretty obvious?

You have still not pointed out where I am supporting murderers. You have still not provided a base for your assumption that communism requiers murders. It's obvious you don't know shit about communism as an ideology. All you've done is accuse me for loads of shit without backing it up.

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
They did that because they were dictators who feared getting overthrown by their people, isn't that pretty obvious?

You have still not pointed out where I am supporting murderers. You have still not provided a base for your assumption that communism requiers murders. It's obvious you don't know shit about communism as an ideology. All you've done is accuse me for loads of shit without backing it up.

well they STILL MURDERED PEOPLE FUCKING GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK RED SKULL i mean if theres anything cept a hammer in there....and arent every country that has communist as leaders eventually get over thrown, thats EXACTLY WHY YOU NEED MURDERS AND EXECUTIONS WHEN U GOT A CoMMUNIST IN OFFICE

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
well they STILL MURDERED PEOPLE FUCKING GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK RED SKULL i mean if theres anything cept a hammer in there....and arent every country that has communist as leaders eventually get over thrown, thats EXACTLY WHY YOU NEED MURDERS AND EXECUTIONS WHEN U GOT A CoMMUNIST IN OFFICE

I know they murdered people. If you have a socialist country with representative democracy and a communist in power, why would the need to execute people be any greater than in a capitalist country with representative democracy? Why wouldn't the communist leader step down from power if he/she lost an election just like any other state-leader?

[SgtD]

Originally posted by Hoffen
They did that because they were dictators who feared getting overthrown by their people, isn't that pretty obvious?


do you think communism can exist without dictators?
if you think so, i wonder how long has your head being stuffed with this communist shit

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by SgtD
do you think communism can exist without dictators?
if you think so, i wonder how long has your head being stuffed with this communist shit

Yes, I believe so. And my head has been stuffed with communism for 8 or 9 years now.

[noman]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Yes, I believe so. And my head has been stuffed with communism for 8 or 9 years now.

thats a long time to be wrong. good job wasteing that much time.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
thats a long time to be wrong. good job wasteing that much time.

Petty insults aren't really doing anything for the debate.

[SgtD]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Yes, I believe so. And my head has been stuffed with communism for 8 or 9 years now.
so your parents are to blame then

[noman]

i dont need to insult or make you look like an idiot, your political party does that for you.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by SgtD
so your parents are to blame then

Probably they played some part in me becoming a commmunist at such a early age, yes. That's more of a psychological question though.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by noman
i dont need to insult or make you look like an idiot, your political party does that for you.

Obviously not, since you choose to throw petty insults at me anyway.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
1. I am not a member of SKP.

2. The hammer and sickle is first and foremost a symbol of the communist movement. Not a particular state, party or leader.

and this is why you don't live in reality and why this entire discussion is moot.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
and this is why you don't live in reality and why this entire discussion is moot.

The political reality here is different than it seems to be where you live. The communist movement here has always been strong and symbols like the hammer and the sickle has always been accepted.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I've never said that people don't have a right to oppose me. I've pointed out that I think they have that right many times. I do not however, see where they have a right to use violence against me or go around spitting in my face.

Would you also be ashamed to associate yourself with xsecx because he is a liberal but won't take full responsibility for the murders of Pinochet or Somoza?

pinochet, non democratically elected dictator.

somoza, non democratically elected dictators.

what that has to do with liberal beliefs, I'd like to konw.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
The political reality here is different than it seems to be where you live. The communist movement here has always been strong and symbols like the hammer and the sickle has always been accepted.

is your head really that far up your own ass that you don't realize the connotations outside of yourself?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
pinochet, non democratically elected dictator.

somoza, non democratically elected dictators.

what that has to do with liberal beliefs, I'd like to konw.

They got at least as much to do with liberalism as anti-labour dictators got to do with communism.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
They got at least as much to do with liberalism as anti-labour dictators got to do with communism.

bullshit. but nice try. when you claim a tenet of liberalism is democracy, you can't quite use dictators for your arguement.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
bullshit. but nice try. when you claim a tenet of liberalism is democracy, you can't quite use dictators for your arguement.

I never said they were liberals, but they carried out their politics in the name of liberalism. Just like with the dictators of the Eastern European states, they weren't real communists but they commited crimes in the name of communism.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I never said they were liberals, but they carried out their politics in the name of liberalism. Just like with the dictators of the Eastern European states, they weren't real communists but they commited crimes in the name of communism.

it falls apart when people use the symbols and images of those dictators. there is no attempt whatsoever to distance yourself from it. which is why you get lumped together. and why you need ot realize that is what you're being judged on. that's not up for debate. that's the reality. you have a problem with it, then distance yourself from it.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
it falls apart when people use the symbols and images of those dictators. there is no attempt whatsoever to distance yourself from it. which is why you get lumped together. and why you need ot realize that is what you're being judged on. that's not up for debate. that's the reality. you have a problem with it, then distance yourself from it.

I distance myself from it any chance I get. I make it perfectly clear that I do not admire the 'socialist' states so far in history and that I do not support any reduction of democratic rights what so ever. The same goes for my party.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I distance myself from it any chance I get. I make it perfectly clear that I do not admire the 'socialist' states so far in history and that I do not support any reduction of democratic rights what so ever. The same goes for my party.

so you don't use common symbols or have pictures of lenin or anything else that could possibly confuse others? But there are things you do admire about the "socialist states"?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
so you don't use common symbols or have pictures of lenin or anything else that could possibly confuse others? But there are things you do admire about the "socialist states"?

I never really use political symbols. I feel no need to make myself a walking poster for communism or any other idelogy. I do not own any pictures of Lenin, but I do have a couple of books written by him. Of course there are certaing things I admire from the 'socialist' states. Take USSR hockey from the 80's as an example, it was like an artform on skates!

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I never really use political symbols. I feel no need to make myself a walking poster for communism or any other idelogy. I do not own any pictures of Lenin, but I do have a couple of books written by him. Of course there are certaing things I admire from the 'socialist' states. Take USSR hockey from the 80's as an example, it was like an artform on skates!

so you act as an individual completely at all times and don't work as part of a party?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
so you act as an individual completely at all times and don't work as part of a party?

Of course I work as a part of a party. The only common symbolism shared by my party and the parties of Eastern Europe nowadays would be the red star. Include the youth league and we also share the occasional raised fist.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Of course I work as a part of a party. The only common symbolism shared by my party and the parties of Eastern Europe nowadays would be the red star. Include the youth league and we also share the occasional raised fist.

so it would be reasonable then for someone who is familar with the symbols in eastern europe and to see the same symbols in use by you, to make a link in ideology.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
so it would be reasonable then for someone who is familar with the symbols in eastern europe and to see the same symbols in use by you, to make a link in ideology.

I can see why some people jump to that conclusion and I do think it can be a problem. It's still a misinterpretation though and I don't think it's worth abandoning the symbols our movement have used before, during and after the existance of USSR and it's satellite states.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I can see why some people jump to that conclusion and I do think it can be a problem. It's still a misinterpretation though and I don't think it's worth abandoning the symbols our movement have used before, during and after the existance of USSR and it's satellite states.

then you can't get upset when someone gets angry and spits at you, can you?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
then you can't get upset when someone gets angry and spits at you, can you?

Yes I can. Even if they choose to assume that I support these oppressive systems they have no right to just walk up to me and spit in my face.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Yes I can. Even if they choose to assume that I support these oppressive systems they have no right to just walk up to me and spit in my face.

you just don't get it. beliefs have consequences.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
you just don't get it. beliefs have consequences.
Doesn't mean those consequences are righteous.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Doesn't mean those consequences are righteous.

and here is where we exit reality.

[noman]

Originally posted by xsecx
and here is where we exit reality.
this kid never was in reality.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
and here is where we exit reality.

What is so unrealistic about not thinking it's justified to spit in my face because people choose to interpret my ideas as something else than they really are?

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
What is so unrealistic about not thinking it's justified to spit in my face because people choose to interpret my ideas as something else than they really are?

because their interpretation isn't unfounded or baseless. the only way they would know is based on your actions and clothing. you wear a shirt with communist symbols and you get shit for it, oh well. you wear a shirt with nazi symbols and you get shit for it, oh well.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
because their interpretation isn't unfounded or baseless. the only way they would know is based on your actions and clothing. you wear a shirt with communist symbols and you get shit for it, oh well. you wear a shirt with nazi symbols and you get shit for it, oh well.

You still fail to explain that final step in your logics where the interpretation they choose to make about another person's ideology warrants them right to harrass that person.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
You still fail to explain that final step in your logics where the interpretation they choose to make about another person's ideology warrants them right to harrass that person.

what is there to explain? do you honestly fail to understand that people violently oppose some things?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
what is there to explain? do you honestly fail to understand that people violently oppose some things?

No, but there's a huge difference between understanding and accepting. I can understand why someone who grew up in 'socialist' Hungary would wanna spit it my face for being a communist, but I will still never accept such treatment.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
You still fail to explain that final step in your logics where the interpretation they choose to make about another person's ideology warrants them right to harrass that person.


wow, full circle, the fact remains that if you say i'm a communist to people who hold communism in disregard they will hold you in disregard due to your affiliation with communism.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
wow, full circle, the fact remains that if you say i'm a communist to people who hold communism in disregard they will hold you in disregard due to your affiliation with communism.

...and your point is? This is not about people disregarding me because I am a communist. If they choose to do that, fine. This debate started when I reacted to SgtD who thought he had the right to spit at and physically challenge communists.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
No, but there's a huge difference between understanding and accepting. I can understand why someone who grew up in 'socialist' Hungary would wanna spit it my face for being a communist, but I will still never accept such treatment.

what choice do you have but to accept it, if you have been spat and understand why. How exactly would you not accept it?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
...and your point is? This is not about people disregarding me because I am a communist. If they choose to do that, fine. This debate started when I reacted to SgtD who thought he had the right to spit at and physically challenge communists.

Well you are in line with people who would do the same.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
what choice do you have but to accept it, if you have been spat and understand why. How exactly would you not accept it?

I'd spit back!

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
Well you are in line with people who would do the same.

What does that mean? Explain your point please.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I'd spit back!

so you would accept it happened and understand exactly why and then spit back, is that because of your beliefs?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
What does that mean? Explain your point please.

Your a communist right?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
so you would accept it happened and understand exactly why and then spit back, is that because of your beliefs?

If you spit on me I spit on you. Easy as that. Has nothing to do with my political beliefs.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
Your a communist right?

I asked "what does that mean?" because I didn't understand exactly what you were saying. Though I am pretty good at English, it's still not my mother tongue and I don't understand all expressions in it. If you don't explain more what you meant with that first post I can't really comment on what you're saying.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I asked "what does that mean?" because I didn't understand exactly what you were saying. Though I am pretty good at English, it's still not my mother tongue and I don't understand all expressions in it. If you don't explain more what you meant with that first post I can't really comment on what you're saying.

i am illustrating what i am saying by asking the question. You are a communist right?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
If you spit on me I spit on you. Easy as that. Has nothing to do with my political beliefs.

well if people are spitting on you because of your political stance i'm affraid it has everything to do with your pollitical stance, unless we pretend thats not why they spat on you.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
i am illustrating what i am saying by asking the question. You are a communist right?

I am a communist yes. Still I do not understand the post about being in line with people. If you refuse to explain what that means I can't really participate and give a good answer on my views.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
well if people are spitting on you because of your political stance i'm affraid it has everything to do with your pollitical stance, unless we pretend thats not why they spat on you.

Sure, but I'll spit back no matter what reason they had for spitting on me, with a few exceptions for some extreme situations of course. So them spitting at me would clearly be politically motivated, me spitting back would not.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I am a communist yes. Still I do not understand the post about being in line with people. If you refuse to explain what that means I can't really participate and give a good answer on my views.

yeah yeah, jeez, i just said i was illustrating that.

So as a communist you are carrying the history of communism, you are in line with them, that means the bad as well as the good. Thats how people will see you, correct?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Sure, but I'll spit back no matter what reason they had for spitting on me, with a few exceptions for some extreme situations of course. So them spitting at me would clearly be politically motivated, me spitting back would not.

it may not seem like it to you but your reaction would still be due to your own pollitical stance in this incident because you are lumped in with the history of what has been done to them, you are the enemy to them, you are a representitive of the oppression, you are affiliated with all the wrong doing they have seen.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
yeah yeah, jeez, i just said i was illustrating that.

So as a communist you are carrying the history of communism, you are in line with them, that means the bad as well as the good. Thats how people will see you, correct?

No, as a communist I am representing the communist ideology, not the history of everything that has been done in it's name. Some people might choose to see me as a representative for every crime commmited in the name of communism, and I can understand that to some extent, but I refuse to take harrassment from people based on such assumptions. If you'd read this thread you'd seen that we've allready gone through this several times.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
it may not seem like it to you but your reaction would still be due to your own pollitical stance in this incident because you are lumped in with the history of what has been done to them, you are the enemy to them, you are a representitive of the oppression, you are affiliated with all the wrong doing they have seen.

Yes, and that would be why they spitted at me. However I would spit back no matter what, totally independant of my political ideology.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
No, as a communist I am representing the communist ideology, not the history of everything that has been done in it's name. Some people might choose to see me as a representative for every crime commmited in the name of communism, and I can understand that to some extent, but I refuse to take harrassment from people based on such assumptions. If you'd read this thread you'd seen that we've allready gone through this several times.

yes i know, you just don't get it do you, as a communist that is what you are representing even if you aren't intentionally doing it.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
yes i know, you just don't get it do you, as a communist that is what you are representing even if you aren't intentionally doing it.

Who are you to say what I represent as a communist? What communism means is up to the communists and our political movement to decide based on it's ideological principles.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Who are you to say what I represent as a communist? What communism means is up to the communists and our political movement to decide based on it's ideological principles.

you seriously don't understand how things work and this statement proves it.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
you seriously don't understand how things work and this statement proves it.

I know damn well how things work in my society and in my local community. When I say I am a communist most people do not assume that I defend the states of the Warzaw pact.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Who are you to say what I represent as a communist? What communism means is up to the communists and our political movement to decide based on it's ideological principles.

i'm ed, so communism can mean whatever the comunists want it to mean? No, and i think you'll find your political movement is something you are trying very hard to seperate yourself from until it suits you.

What communism means and represents is relevent to everybody not just communists.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
i'm ed, so communism can mean whatever the comunists want it to mean? No, and i think you'll find your political movement is something you are trying very hard to seperate yourself from until it suits you.

What communism means and represents is relevent to everybody not just communists.

So who defines communism then? Why should I accept a definition of my ideology set by a handful of liberals on a message board rather than a definition by the communists themselves and the general consensus in society?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by Hoffen
So who defines communism then? Why should I accept a definition of my ideology set by a handful of liberals on a message board rather than a definition by the communists themselves and the general consensus in society?

who says i'm liberal? Perhaps i call myself communist too? Perhaps as a communist i say liberalism is communist!?

Any way how have i changed the definition of your ideology by simply talking about how that ideology is viewed. I guess you are just very misunderstood right? And i'm not part of the general consensus either i'm guessing! i suppose i cannot talk about how communism is viewed unless i am communist, that sure would explain a lot.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
So who defines communism then? Why should I accept a definition of my ideology set by a handful of liberals on a message board rather than a definition by the communists themselves and the general consensus in society?

you're so far out of touch with the consensus of society that you don't understand HOW it views communism.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by straightXed
who says i'm liberal? Perhaps i call myself communist too? Perhaps as a communist i say liberalism is communist!?

Any way how have i changed the definition of your ideology by simply talking about how that ideology is viewed. I guess you are just very misunderstood right? And i'm not part of the general consensus either i'm guessing! i suppose i cannot talk about how communism is viewed unless i am communist, that sure would explain a lot.

Yeah, maybe I was wrong in my assumption that you were a liberal. Just jumped to conclusion since I know xsecx is a liberal and you're all saying pretty much exactly the same thing as he is. Sorry if I judged you unfairly.

No, you have not changed the definition of what my ideology is. I was just saying that your talk about how communism is viewed does not fit in with reality where I live. So, from where I see it your outlook is not representative of the general consensus. It might be different in UK and that would be sad since it blocks out the ideological ideas of communism by moving the focus from them to a whole other issue. Sure you can talk as much as you want about how communism is viewed, and you probably know a lot more about how it's viewed where you live than I do. Point is, your description of how communism is viewed does not fit in with reality where I live so you can't expect me to conform according to that description.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
you're so far out of touch with the consensus of society that you don't understand HOW it views communism.

This is not a cosmopolitan world. Society's general consensus on the meaning of communism over here is very different from the view you are describing.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
This is not a cosmopolitan world. Society's general consensus on the meaning of communism over here is very different from the view you are describing.

considering we're not talking about sweden, I don't see how it's relavent, but considering you've "got a 6 inch scar to prove it" I'd have to question just what the general consensus would be. I'd also challenge that everyone's view of communism here better represents general consensus than you.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
Yeah, maybe I was wrong in my assumption that you were a liberal. Just jumped to conclusion since I know xsecx is a liberal and you're all saying pretty much exactly the same thing as he is. Sorry if I judged you unfairly.

No, you have not changed the definition of what my ideology is. I was just saying that your talk about how communism is viewed does not fit in with reality where I live. So, from where I see it your outlook is not representative of the general consensus. It might be different in UK and that would be sad since it blocks out the ideological ideas of communism by moving the focus from them to a whole other issue. Sure you can talk as much as you want about how communism is viewed, and you probably know a lot more about how it's viewed where you live than I do. Point is, your description of how communism is viewed does not fit in with reality where I live so you can't expect me to conform according to that description.

as someone on the inside looking out, youre not qualify to discuss how it appears to those on the outside looking in.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
considering we're not talking about sweden, I don't see how it's relavent, but considering you've "got a 6 inch scar to prove it" I'd have to question just what the general consensus would be. I'd also challenge that everyone's view of communism here better represents general consensus than you.

You're questioning how I can choose to call myself a communist and as I naturally based this decision on what communism means to me and the people who surround me the general consensus in Sweden has everything to do with it. The 6 stiches scar (not 6 inches!) was 'created' by a young nazi skinhead who is in no way a representative for any general political consensus anywhere, so that has really nothing to do with this issue.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
as someone on the inside looking out, youre not qualify to discuss how it appears to those on the outside looking in.

I am not living in a sheltered world with only communists. As a pretty well know local political youth figure people often come up to me to discuss what I think of politics. So I get a pretty good view of how people view me, my party and my ideology.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I am not living in a sheltered world with only communists. As a pretty well know local political youth figure people often come up to me to discuss what I think of politics. So I get a pretty good view of how people view me, my party and my ideology.

how do you figure that? you spend much time going across the country and polling? Like I said, you're on the inside, you're not qualified to talk about how you're viewed from the outside.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
You're questioning how I can choose to call myself a communist and as I naturally based this decision on what communism means to me and the people who surround me the general consensus in Sweden has everything to do with it. The 6 stiches scar (not 6 inches!) was 'created' by a young nazi skinhead who is in no way a representative for any general political consensus anywhere, so that has really nothing to do with this issue.

except that we're talking about people in eastern europe, so sweden is irrelevant.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
how do you figure that? you spend much time going across the country and polling? Like I said, you're on the inside, you're not qualified to talk about how you're viewed from the outside.

No, but I get a picture of the general consensus because I discuss with people and hear there thought on the issues all the time.

Since you won't take my word for it can present some statistics. My party has a communist party leader and the ideological views of communism and my party has been debated a lot in the media. In the latest polls some week ago my party got about 7,5% of all voters and that's still the worst result we've had in over 10 years. On a local scale there has not been made any polls recently that I know of, the latest numbers I know of is from elections for Swedish representatives in the European Union parliament held at the beggining of June this year. In those elections my party locally got slightly over 40% of all votes and was the by far biggest party. Obviously being a communist is not something very controversial where I live.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
except that we're talking about people in eastern europe, so sweden is irrelevant.

If we're just talking about how Eastern Europeans view communism, why are you attacking me for calling myself a communist? I do not live in East Europe.

Also, from what I've experienced it does not seem like there is a general consensus in East Europe about what communism means. I've met plenty of Russians and many of them found out I was a communist. Some of them were communists too, some were not but none of them thought I was some wacked Soviet Union supporter.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
If we're just talking about how Eastern Europeans view communism, why are you attacking me for calling myself a communist? I do not live in East Europe.

Also, from what I've experienced it does not seem like there is a general consensus in East Europe about what communism means. I've met plenty of Russians and many of them found out I was a communist. Some of them were communists too, some were not but none of them thought I was some wacked Soviet Union supporter.

who's attackin you for calling yourself communist? all anyone has said is that you can't be surprised or upset if someone hates you for it.

and as we've established, you're not one to comment on the general consenus of communism. I am not one to comment on the general consensus of the US outside the US even though I talk to people outside. for some reason you fail to understand that your opinion on a subject is irrelvenant. How you think or feel about this subject is irrelevant.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
No, but I get a picture of the general consensus because I discuss with people and hear there thought on the issues all the time.

Since you won't take my word for it can present some statistics. My party has a communist party leader and the ideological views of communism and my party has been debated a lot in the media. In the latest polls some week ago my party got about 7,5% of all voters and that's still the worst result we've had in over 10 years. On a local scale there has not been made any polls recently that I know of, the latest numbers I know of is from elections for Swedish representatives in the European Union parliament held at the beggining of June this year. In those elections my party locally got slightly over 40% of all votes and was the by far biggest party. Obviously being a communist is not something very controversial where I live.

7.5% of all voters and you think that translates to favorable? In a large sampling you got less than 10%. How does this translate to it not being contraversial? There are places in england where the racist BNP has won council seats, does that mean the general concensus is that they're ok?

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
who's attackin you for calling yourself communist? all anyone has said is that you can't be surprised or upset if someone hates you for it.

and as we've established, you're not one to comment on the general consenus of communism. I am not one to comment on the general consensus of the US outside the US even though I talk to people outside. for some reason you fail to understand that your opinion on a subject is irrelvenant. How you think or feel about this subject is irrelevant.

I feel I've been attacked quite blatantly by pretty much everyone else in this thread, with an exception for Ed. Mostly by SgtD and noman but also by you, when you pretty much stated that people have the right to spit in my face and start fights with me because I am a communist.

'We've established'? I've just seen you stating this 'fact' so I do not consider it properly established at all. Of course I am biased but I do have a much better view of how people in my society and community view communism than you do. If your description of the general consensus on communism applied to my community, then why would 40% of voters where I live give their support to the party that organizes most of the Swedish communists? There is not point in discussing some form of world-wide general consensus because it varies so dramatically from place to place. Communism means one thing to the average person in China, another to the average Russian, another to the average person in Venezuela and so on...

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
7.5% of all voters and you think that translates to favorable? In a large sampling you got less than 10%. How does this translate to it not being contraversial? There are places in england where the racist BNP has won council seats, does that mean the general concensus is that they're ok?

7,5% makes us one of the biggest parties in Sweden. On a sidenote I might add that in a poll before the Swedish elections in 2002 about 40% of voters said that my party was one of the parties they had considered voting for. Does that sound like a party who are viewed as dictator loving nutters? I think not.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
I feel I've been attacked quite blatantly by pretty much everyone else in this thread, with an exception for Ed. Mostly by SgtD and noman but also by you, when you pretty much stated that people have the right to spit in my face and start fights with me because I am a communist.

'We've established'? I've just seen you stating this 'fact' so I do not consider it properly established at all. Of course I am biased but I do have a much better view of how people in my society and community view communism than you do. If your description of the general consensus on communism applied to my community, then why would 40% of voters where I live give their support to the party that organizes most of the Swedish communists? There is not point in discussing some form of world-wide general consensus because it varies so dramatically from place to place. Communism means one thing to the average person in China, another to the average Russian, another to the average person in Venezuela and so on...

I said people have the write to spit on you for wearing communist symbols in a place where it'd be unwelcome. this goes for many other situations. if you wore a swastika to a synagogue, if you wore a "fuck faggots" shirt to a gay bar. if you wore a "I hope you die drinking" shirt to a bar. you're just too stupid to realize and accept consquences for your actions and you believe there shouldn't be any. which is naive, stupid and counter productive.

your opinion is pointless on how the outside world views you. this is fact. Because of your bias, you can't speak toward how other people other than YOU view it. maybe your party, but not the country at large.

Since we're talking about general consensus's, where you live is pointless. you're not the center of the universe. Your opinion on this subject doesn't matter. because what has been talked about is other peoples views on communism, not hoffen and hoffen's party's view on communism.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Hoffen
7,5% makes us one of the biggest parties in Sweden. On a sidenote I might add that in a poll before the Swedish elections in 2002 about 40% of voters said that my party was one of the parties they had considered voting for. Does that sound like a party who are viewed as dictator loving nutters? I think not.

so which one of these are you?

The Social Democratic Party
The Moderate Party
The Liberal Party
The Christian Democrats
The Left Party
The Centre Party
The Green Party

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
I said people have the write to spit on you for wearing communist symbols in a place where it'd be unwelcome. this goes for many other situations. if you wore a swastika to a synagogue, if you wore a "fuck faggots" shirt to a gay bar. if you wore a "I hope you die drinking" shirt to a bar. you're just too stupid to realize and accept consquences for your actions and you believe there shouldn't be any. which is naive, stupid and counter productive.

your opinion is pointless on how the outside world views you. this is fact. Because of your bias, you can't speak toward how other people other than YOU view it. maybe your party, but not the country at large.

Since we're talking about general consensus's, where you live is pointless. you're not the center of the universe. Your opinion on this subject doesn't matter. because what has been talked about is other peoples views on communism, not hoffen and hoffen's party's view on communism.

If where I live does not matter when we're talking about general consesus, then you must be advocating the idea that there is a cosmopolitan world wide general consensus on the definition of communism right? Do you seriously believe that such a thing exists? Politics and political movements are all seen from different views depending on where in the world you are. The general consensus that you're describing has nothing to do with the general consensus here or in the general consensus in Cuba. It has to be debated out of how it's viewed in different societies because there is no alternative higher level. Get it?

I simply won't accept the idea that my opinion does not matter. I am a communist now but I've not always been a communist. There was a point in my life where I decided to take on the label of communism. I still remember how I thought back then, I still remember how I saw the communist youth movement from my view as an outsider looking in and I still remember the reaction from my friends, my relatives and my teachers when they found out what I had decided. You seem to believe that I as a communist have lived a sheltered life in contact only with other communists, of course that's not true. Very few people I have ever spoken to have associated my ideas as a communist with the ideas of dictators in foreign countries. Those experiences count for something.

[Hoffen]

Originally posted by xsecx
so which one of these are you?

The Social Democratic Party
The Moderate Party
The Liberal Party
The C