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    ..... straightXed's Avatar
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    Hls

    I know there are a fair amount of vegans and vegetarians populating this board and after seeing this/this on the news today, i just wondered how this sits with most of you? Do you condone the actions of these activists? Do you find them utterly dispicable? Or maybe somewhere inbetween. Just would be interested to know if anyone actually backs this mentality really.
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    Being Mean CarlaRant's Avatar
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    No and no. Any sort of physical assault or threat is not acceptable and does not win over any minds.

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    yea, NO and NO.

    It's stupid 1) because violence is never going to make people who do things that are violent stop. Unless these people (SHAC) thinks they are going to kill all the lab testers etc it just won't happen. Its fucking crazy.
    2) its terrible PR. This isn't getting anyone to go vegan, and probably makes people write it off right away.

    And honestly, animal testing is a disgusting abominable practice in my opinion. But at least the aims have some bit of a justifiable premise. I mean i don't buy it or think its ok, Rights should trump utility. But at least its an argument you can understand. If these people are so fucking pro animal, shouldn't they be doing this to the people who buy the meat, i mean as Hemacandra so prophetically explains below.

    "Those who eat the meat of other [living beings] in order to satisfy their own flesh, they are definitely murderers [themselves], since without a consumer [there can be] no killer." ó Acharya Hemacandra (12th c. Jain ascetic/scholar)

    this violent animal liberation shit is so fucked up and counterproductive you don't even know. Then we as vegans have to spend time explaining why their can be nutjobs in any movement, instead of explaining why "meat is still murder and dairy is still rape, and i am just as stupid as anyone but i know my mistakes." (thats propagandhi! any fans?!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlaRant View Post
    No and no. Any sort of physical assault or threat is not acceptable and does not win over any minds.

    clearly it wins over some minds that are impressionable and like the article says, there will be people who see these people as champions of their cause. But of course you are right, its not acceptable and won't win many over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xVeganAnarchistx View Post
    yea, NO and NO.

    It's stupid 1) because violence is never going to make people who do things that are violent stop. Unless these people (SHAC) thinks they are going to kill all the lab testers etc it just won't happen. Its fucking crazy.
    HLS has been the target of many groups/gangs for as long as i can remember. This story is simply the tip of the iceberg. There has been some truly horrendous attacks in the past on innocent families and many of these attacks make me think that the idea of killing all the lab testers is right at the front of their fanatical little minds. So yeah its crazy for sure.



    Quote Originally Posted by xVeganAnarchistx View Post
    2) its terrible PR. This isn't getting anyone to go vegan, and probably makes people write it off right away.
    The PR isn't great is it, but still people pick up the leaflets and soak up the constant barrage of wrongdoings by HLS painted in such a traggic way people will feel for the cause, propaganda designed to make you feel angry and unable to change it. I guess when someone has changed their lifestyle in every way to be vegan the only thing left is to change others and with the emotion stored you can see how this direct action comes to be so full of anger and hate. Scary really isn't it, and to think these people were allowed to make their choice freely...10 years ago they were probably eating burgers etc. But now the rules have changed. So it won't make many people vegan but you have got to worry about the people it does make vegan!

    Quote Originally Posted by xVeganAnarchistx View Post
    And honestly, animal testing is a disgusting abominable practice in my opinion. But at least the aims have some bit of a justifiable premise. I mean i don't buy it or think its ok, Rights should trump utility. But at least its an argument you can understand. If these people are so fucking pro animal, shouldn't they be doing this to the people who buy the meat, i mean as Hemacandra so prophetically explains below.

    "Those who eat the meat of other [living beings] in order to satisfy their own flesh, they are definitely murderers [themselves], since without a consumer [there can be] no killer." ó Acharya Hemacandra (12th c. Jain ascetic/scholar)

    this violent animal liberation shit is so fucked up and counterproductive you don't even know. Then we as vegans have to spend time explaining why their can be nutjobs in any movement, instead of explaining why "meat is still murder and dairy is still rape, and i am just as stupid as anyone but i know my mistakes." (thats propagandhi! any fans?!)
    Not a fan myself!
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    yea, exactly, i was hunting deer when i was 12. Now should i have wanted to kill myself? its really screwed up.

    And like, HLS is fucking disgusting. And i think they should close down. but you know who is defending those bastards at HLS now, alot of people, like vegans, because SHAC is super crazy.

    And yea, its scary to think about the people converted to veganism by these people. The thing is though, alot of the animal liberation movement are not even vegan, sometimes not even vegetarian, now that's fucked up. I have a friend who doesn't do this shit but is probably a supporter of sorts and she eats fucking animals. I'm like are you fucking kidding me!

    gah, sorry i hate what this does to the vegan movement haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by xVeganAnarchistx View Post
    yea, exactly, i was hunting deer when i was 12. Now should i have wanted to kill myself? its really screwed up.

    And like, HLS is fucking disgusting. And i think they should close down. but you know who is defending those bastards at HLS now, alot of people, like vegans, because SHAC is super crazy.

    And yea, its scary to think about the people converted to veganism by these people. The thing is though, alot of the animal liberation movement are not even vegan, sometimes not even vegetarian, now that's fucked up. I have a friend who doesn't do this shit but is probably a supporter of sorts and she eats fucking animals. I'm like are you fucking kidding me!

    gah, sorry i hate what this does to the vegan movement haha
    Animal liberation is not fucked up in any way, shape, or form. Causing property and economic damage to companies which support the torture of animals is 100% fine in my book, the importance is to take the ideology of the ELF/EF! to heart and to seek to deliberately harm no living creature, humans included. Destroying property has tangible effects regardless of the PR it creates, targeting people has very little to no effect while causing unnecessarily bad PR.
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    But these guys aren't just breaking in rescueing lab animals. Which i would support (morally) though im uneasy about the press coverage part (utility). They are threatening peoples life, which doesn't really seem like a great idea to me.

    I suppose i should be a little clear, i'm totally down for rescuing the animals in labs or free those on farms, if it actually helps the animals. i just feel like in the long term (right now) its not a great move.

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    More Than Ever xGriffox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xVeganAnarchistx View Post
    But these guys aren't just breaking in rescueing lab animals. Which i would support (morally) though im uneasy about the press coverage part (utility). They are threatening peoples life, which doesn't really seem like a great idea to me.
    agreed, those that are harassing employee's families and what not don't really seem to be helping anything (in either actual results or press coverage).


    I suppose i should be a little clear, i'm totally down for rescuing the animals in labs or free those on farms, if it actually helps the animals. i just feel like in the long term (right now) its not a great move.
    why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by xGriffox View Post
    Animal liberation is not fucked up in any way, shape, or form. Causing property and economic damage to companies which support the torture of animals is 100% fine in my book, the importance is to take the ideology of the ELF/EF! to heart and to seek to deliberately harm no living creature, humans included. Destroying property has tangible effects regardless of the PR it creates, targeting people has very little to no effect while causing unnecessarily bad PR.
    Why is property damage okay? Not everybody is going to have the same beliefs as you, so why do you think it is okay to force your opinions on others? You're a vegan, that is awesome, I have the utmost respect for that. But if I am working in a field that works with animals, I shouldn't have to be afraid of some vegans smashing my windows or causing damage to MY property because they don't live their lives the same way I do.
    Later Days

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    Quote Originally Posted by xGriffox View Post
    Animal liberation is not fucked up in any way, shape, or form.
    you quoted a message saying that there are followers of ALF that aren't vegan or vegetarian and thus fucked up. You are saying this isn't fucked up? I don't follow. Especially taking into consideration what you go onto say. Its like you aren't actually addressing what was written unless you really do think that meat eating participants in ALF activities isn't fucked up?


    Quote Originally Posted by xGriffox View Post
    Causing property and economic damage to companies which support the torture of animals is 100% fine in my book, the importance is to take the ideology of the ELF/EF! to heart and to seek to deliberately harm no living creature, humans included. Destroying property has tangible effects regardless of the PR it creates, targeting people has very little to no effect while causing unnecessarily bad PR.
    I'm of the opinion that you are under playing the effect of the actions of this group has on peoples lives. i know you are probably refering to it having little to no effect for the cause but i just wanted to highlight once more the devastating effects this bullying can have and how it makes those involved completely hipocritical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xGriffox View Post



    why?
    Letting animals out without an actual understanding of how the animals will survive is not a great plan, it can have negative impact on the animals being "saved" and other animals and/or areas of animal habitat. The passion to help animals hasd definitely on occasion caused issues that make the idea a bit of a blunder, i understand the passion there just needs to be a lot more thought to go with it on occasion, i mean looking and the mentality of the people in discussion here they certainly aren't giving me any faith that they are people to take note of and listen too, they come accross as thuggish yobs, hooligans even, not inteligent compassionate people. Big image overhaul need really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mouseman004 View Post
    Why is property damage okay? Not everybody is going to have the same beliefs as you, so why do you think it is okay to force your opinions on others? You're a vegan, that is awesome, I have the utmost respect for that. But if I am working in a field that works with animals, I shouldn't have to be afraid of some vegans smashing my windows or causing damage to MY property because they don't live their lives the same way I do.
    Ok so i totally agree that bullying people and threatening their lives is wrong. But i guess i agree with Griffon here. The actions that free animals are in the right place. I think its morally totally right. I mean, i would have (if i was brave enough of course) tried to helped chattel slaves free their captivity if i could have. I think its right in that sense. There are things that i think we can agree are right, and that it would be okay to free human slaves, no matter how much that damages someones business. We just disagree on animals mattering in the same way. And its important to take that into a account. That's why i think its usually wrong to physically touch people to make them stop doing something we think is wrong. But then, if you where beating your dog in front of me, i think (assuming bravery) i would physically stop you if i had to.

    anyway, the problem with even the property damage is that its not a good idea from a utility standpoint. Its probably acceptable (IMO) but its just really bad PR. like someone said, we look like thugs and not compassionate people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xVeganAnarchistx View Post
    Ok so i totally agree that bullying people and threatening their lives is wrong. But i guess i agree with Griffon here. The actions that free animals are in the right place. I think its morally totally right. I mean, i would have (if i was brave enough of course) tried to helped chattel slaves free their captivity if i could have. I think its right in that sense. There are things that i think we can agree are right, and that it would be okay to free human slaves, no matter how much that damages someones business. We just disagree on animals mattering in the same way. And its important to take that into a account. That's why i think its usually wrong to physically touch people to make them stop doing something we think is wrong. But then, if you where beating your dog in front of me, i think (assuming bravery) i would physically stop you if i had to.
    Thats interesting, so if you replaced beating the dog with the idea of eating meat in front of you, your actions would be different? Why? (bravery accounted for). I'm just trying to assertain if there is a sliding scale here, is the beating dog act worse to you than the act of eating meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by xVeganAnarchistx View Post
    anyway, the problem with even the property damage is that its not a good idea from a utility standpoint. Its probably acceptable (IMO) but its just really bad PR. like someone said, we look like thugs and not compassionate people.
    If there were no risk of bad PR would you see the property damage as acceptable then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by straightXed View Post
    Thats interesting, so if you replaced beating the dog with the idea of eating meat in front of you, your actions would be different? Why? (bravery accounted for). I'm just trying to assertain if there is a sliding scale here, is the beating dog act worse to you than the act of eating meat?
    I guess i'm not really sure of the underlying idea. I think its probably a difference of emergency, the dog is suffering in front of my eyes where i can stop it. Whereas the animal whose was tortured for the meat has already suffered and died. Its the past. I think this kinda relates to the Trolley problem in philosophy if you know what i mean. I suppose its just that one action is happening now and can be stopped. that active defense. Whereas the reason for not eating animals is proactive, stopping the NEXT animal to suffer. Their is a kernal of truth to that "just eat this the cow is already dead" shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by straightXed View Post
    If there were no risk of bad PR would you see the property damage as acceptable then?
    Absolutelty. Animal Industries operate like any other business in capitalism. They people who get rich exploiting animals, or women, or whatever don;t care what they make money off, only that they make money. If we make animal agriculture unprofitable because 1) we raise consciousness (i think this is best route as ill explain) or 2) freeing their "property" we make it less of an effective way to make money and they will move out.

    Now i think consciousness raising is best cause it changes the root cause which is demand, not supply. If we destroy a factory farm, then all the others will just get more business you know. IF we destroy demand then they'll all lose business.

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