Downloading Music

[D1988]

What do you think of downloading music?

I think we should keep this discussion solely on the topic of MUSIC downloads for the time being rather than verge into downloading TV shows, Movies, Software etc.

I personally download music quite often using torrents. There is a good site called www.punktorrents.com and I just today got an invite for www.oink.cd. I do collect vinyl,merch and I do have a massive ammount of CD's but in most cases nowadays I find myself only buying vinyl and therefore have no digital versions for my ipod. To be totally honest, the main reason I do download music from these sites is to actually put the music on my ipod. The only other reason would be to check out a band, normally before I then go onto purchasing the record of that band but obviously there is quite alot of music that I have where I have not purchased anything to have the music. I do feel to a certain extent that this is basic stealing, a band or their label has paid to record these songs for me to listen to and rather than giving back I am "stealing" it. But on the other hand, I do think that a band is going to like the idea of people listening to their music even if they did obtain it without paying for it.

There is definately two sides to this and it is a touchy subject. I have seen record labels contacting sites and telling them not to make any of their releases downloadable. But I have also read interviews with bands who support this type of downloading.

I want to make a decent discussion out of this one, post up what you think.

GO!

[rodrigo]

i think it depends on the band you are stealing. for example i dont download music from small independent bands from around here. i do download when i know its something i cant buy... like music from small idependents bands from hungary.

there's another point in downloading music thats it can be different from place to place, but for example, last time i went to a music store i found one of those spoken words cd's from henry rollins. and the price was about 28 dollars... and thats too much for a cd. so i downloaded it.

[Michael]

most of the cd's i buy at shows from bands and they always encourage me to share it, saying their record label gets most of the money. I do a lot of downloading. I buy t-shirts/other merch from most of the bands i download, so i don't feel as bad downloading.

[PROPER JERK]

I download mainly to hear how something is, I don't like wasting money on a record if it sucks ass... but if a band puts out a killer album then yes they deserve the money, if it's not rad the mp3's get deleted and I dont make a purchase. I also download my trance/techno stuff because you usually can only buy it on vinyl or you have to buy a cd with 12 filler random tracks and one good track.

[straightXed]

What do you think of downloading music?

I think we should keep this discussion solely on the topic of MUSIC downloads for the time being rather than verge into downloading TV shows, Movies, Software etc.

I personally download music quite often using torrents. There is a good site called www.punktorrents.com and I just today got an invite for www.oink.cd. I do collect vinyl,merch and I do have a massive ammount of CD's but in most cases nowadays I find myself only buying vinyl and therefore have no digital versions for my ipod. To be totally honest, the main reason I do download music from these sites is to actually put the music on my ipod. The only other reason would be to check out a band, normally before I then go onto purchasing the record of that band but obviously there is quite alot of music that I have where I have not purchased anything to have the music. I do feel to a certain extent that this is basic stealing, a band or their label has paid to record these songs for me to listen to and rather than giving back I am "stealing" it. But on the other hand, I do think that a band is going to like the idea of people listening to their music even if they did obtain it without paying for it.

There is definately two sides to this and it is a touchy subject. I have seen record labels contacting sites and telling them not to make any of their releases downloadable. But I have also read interviews with bands who support this type of downloading.

I want to make a decent discussion out of this one, post up what you think.

GO!

Its theft if the band aren't happy with you doing it, bands will upload some tracks in order for you to check them out but its pretty much conclusive that they don't want you downloading the whole album without their consent. I think its wrong to think that they will be happy that you download their album without paying, i don't think they will like that idea too much, not to mention that the people that do buy the album end up subsidising your listening/downloading habbits. I mean if we all decide to negate paying then we can all get it for free until the band is unable to make a new album and ultimately you are working towards the demise of a band - any band that is happy with that isn't to smart. Of course this generally refers to smaller bands however a large record company isn't going to be happy when they aren't getting any return from a larger artist so it does translate there too. Now some bands may encourage as many people to get a hold of there album in order to get well known which is fine, if they are condoning it then its not theft and there is no justification needed.


The main reason being to put it on an ipod to listen to it doesn't stop it being theft. You can convert your vinyl into digital soundfiles to put on your ipod however if you own the album on vinyl then it becomes a severe issue if you download a copy of something you own. If you don't own the album then theres no real way of getting away from the fact it is theft.

I share rodrigo's stance here as i may decide to download something that i don't think is worthy of the price, i may justify it that way but its still stealing and this really is the bottom line - there isn't really any question as to what is theft and what isn't, it comes down to if you are happy in commiting that crime. If you give a shit about the band and respect them the decent thing would be to buy their records, it benifits you, the band and everyone else. If you think its not going to harm anyone because the band makes loads of cash then be prepared to think about if everyone thought like that and what consequence that would have. I am not saying don't download, i'm in no position to really, i'm just saying if you are going to do it be completely honest about the possible effects and if you still want to do it then at least you can be sure it was a choice that you thought through, basically ask yourself "am i happy to steal this, am i happy to be a theif?" Although the questions may sound blunt and unsavory, they are the honest questions you need to ask. And whilst to many saying you download music won't attach the same stigma as saying you steal cars or rob houses thats only down to social climates and nothing to do with weather or not what you do is wrong or not.

[mouseman004]

What do you think of downloading music?

I think we should keep this discussion solely on the topic of MUSIC downloads for the time being rather than verge into downloading TV shows, Movies, Software etc.

I personally download music quite often using torrents. There is a good site called www.punktorrents.com and I just today got an invite for www.oink.cd. I do collect vinyl,merch and I do have a massive ammount of CD's but in most cases nowadays I find myself only buying vinyl and therefore have no digital versions for my ipod. To be totally honest, the main reason I do download music from these sites is to actually put the music on my ipod. The only other reason would be to check out a band, normally before I then go onto purchasing the record of that band but obviously there is quite alot of music that I have where I have not purchased anything to have the music. I do feel to a certain extent that this is basic stealing, a band or their label has paid to record these songs for me to listen to and rather than giving back I am "stealing" it. But on the other hand, I do think that a band is going to like the idea of people listening to their music even if they did obtain it without paying for it.

There is definately two sides to this and it is a touchy subject. I have seen record labels contacting sites and telling them not to make any of their releases downloadable. But I have also read interviews with bands who support this type of downloading.

I want to make a decent discussion out of this one, post up what you think.

GO!

Downloading music will often get me interested in a band. So I will downlaod a couple of songs before I go out and buy an album, and if I like the songs I will actually go out and buy the album. It usually comes down to whether or not I like a band enough to buy an album. If it is a band that I really like I will go out and buy the album, if I only like a couple of songs by a certain band then I will download them.

[D1988]

I have yet to speak to anyone who is totally against downloading. I have never ever met anyone who would refuse to download music. I am sure there must be people like this though?

I would say I take the same stance as Ed, Rodrigo and Mouseman. I will download music to checkout a band before purchasing there stuff, I will obviously download the 12 tracks off an LP if it's selling for alot more than I think it is worth, I think that is a stance the majority of the people downloaing stuff take "Why pay for it when I can download it for free".

But you are perfectly right, what it comes down to is whether personally we are happy to steal music or not. I guess the large majority of people are. Shit, I been looking around that Oink website a little bit more and some people have downloaded over 10Gb purely of music, that is crazy. Nobody could listen to that much music and I doubt people downloading this much have any intentions of purchasing some of the stuff they are downloading either.

Alot of places are trying to counter the negative effects free dowloading is having on the music industry as a whole. For example chart sales dropped significantly because people can just download the track rather than go to a shop and buy it, places even like Tesco, Woolworths etc have all began selling albums and singles online, where you pay your money using a credit/debit card and download the tracks from the site rather than going out to the shop an buying the actual CD. Downloads now also count to the chart shows you hear on radio rather than just CD sales alone. But, does anyone know anyone for example who pays to download tracks from itunes? I for one don't.

[straightXed]

I have yet to speak to anyone who is totally against downloading. I have never ever met anyone who would refuse to download music. I am sure there must be people like this though?

You aren't really being clear here though, downloading isn't always illegal, there are plenty of people that won't download anything illegally there is a fair amount of stuff to download legally also. So to be totally against downloading would be an odd thing however tobe totally against theft isn't that odd really.

I would say I take the same stance as Ed, Rodrigo and Mouseman. I will download music to checkout a band before purchasing there stuff, I will obviously download the 12 tracks off an LP if it's selling for alot more than I think it is worth, I think that is a stance the majority of the people downloaing stuff take "Why pay for it when I can download it for free".

I think its a dangerous trap to fall into though, i mean its not up to us to decide how much it should be sold for really, its down to the record company and the artist. I mean i think cars are well overpriced for the most part but i'm not about stealing them, its a tough one really and i think it has to be a clear case of it being very overpriced for me to reconcile that one. I definitely don't have the stance of why pay for it when i can download it for free - its more a case of i would love to buy it but i really can't justify that price and i am not entirely happy with where the money is going either. I still see it as stealing and actually prefer to avoid that as much as possible.

But you are perfectly right, what it comes down to is whether personally we are happy to steal music or not. I guess the large majority of people are. Shit, I been looking around that Oink website a little bit more and some people have downloaded over 10Gb purely of music, that is crazy. Nobody could listen to that much music and I doubt people downloading this much have any intentions of purchasing some of the stuff they are downloading either.

Thats the other problem with p2p sites, its not just your intentions that are in question its everyone you share music with also, i mean if i download a new hardcore record i want because i want to hear it before i pick the cd up at the show a few months later then i have good intentions. However if i put that record in my shared stuff then i am essentially just forwarding illegal copies to people with no idea if they have the intent tobuy or even care about actually supporting the band. There are some good reasons to download and share music and there are also a lot of reasons not to.

Alot of places are trying to counter the negative effects free dowloading is having on the music industry as a whole. For example chart sales dropped significantly because people can just download the track rather than go to a shop and buy it, places even like Tesco, Woolworths etc have all began selling albums and singles online, where you pay your money using a credit/debit card and download the tracks from the site rather than going out to the shop an buying the actual CD. Downloads now also count to the chart shows you hear on radio rather than just CD sales alone. But, does anyone know anyone for example who pays to download tracks from itunes? I for one don't.

I know people who have paid for downloads its actually quite common, i mean think about it people pay for ringtones that are absoloutely dumb so its really not far fetched to think that people pay for actual songs too. And you've said it yourself, download sales make up a good portion of chart figures so that shows people with terrible taste in pop music are downloading stuff. The whole thing with smooth of when companies have established the most air tight way to control as much of the revenue as they can but for now its still a bit up and down with the crossover. A lot of people still like the idea of owning something physical but the cost of that versus the insane cheapness of overheads for downloads does create a little bit of an odd market proposition.

[D1988]

You aren't really being clear here though, downloading isn't always illegal, there are plenty of people that won't download anything illegally there is a fair amount of stuff to download legally also. So to be totally against downloading would be an odd thing however tobe totally against theft isn't that odd really.

Yeah, sorry I actually meant to say illegal downloads. I don't know anyone at all who is totally against ilegal downloads.

Thats the other problem with p2p sites, its not just your intentions that are in question its everyone you share music with also, i mean if i download a new hardcore record i want because i want to hear it before i pick the cd up at the show a few months later then i have good intentions. However if i put that record in my shared stuff then i am essentially just forwarding illegal copies to people with no idea if they have the intent tobuy or even care about actually supporting the band. There are some good reasons to download and share music and there are also a lot of reasons not to.

This is one of the problems I see with the torrent sites I use. They have established themselves as a large sharing community by putting rules on the ammount you have to upload before you can keep downloading. When somebody uploads a torrent, for example say, Carry On - Roll With The Punches, thats a record I am looking to buy so I download it to listen to it before I actually go onto buying it. I could leave this torrent seeding for 4 days and another 10 people could download it. I personally do not think that even half of these people are downloading the torrent with the same intentions as me, thats where I see the problem, most of these guys are downloading a hell of alot and then seeding it back for people to do the same, whereas there are some kids like myself who actually have the intention of buying the record too.

I know people who have paid for downloads its actually quite common, i mean think about it people pay for ringtones that are absoloutely dumb so its really not far fetched to think that people pay for actual songs too. And you've said it yourself, download sales make up a good portion of chart figures so that shows people with terrible taste in pop music are downloading stuff. The whole thing with smooth of when companies have established the most air tight way to control as much of the revenue as they can but for now its still a bit up and down with the crossover. A lot of people still like the idea of owning something physical but the cost of that versus the insane cheapness of overheads for downloads does create a little bit of an odd market proposition.

See, I had this discussion with a friend just the other day about these ringtone TV adverts and stuff. I do not know a single person who subscribes to these or pays for there ringtones, but there must be a large volume of people who do, otherwise how could these companies fund TV adverts to advertise there service?

It's the same with paying to download music, I do not know a single person who does this either.

I also looked at prices of albums and singles on Tesco and Woolworths websites and they are not that much cheaper than buying the physical CD which I found quite suprising.

[straightXed]

Yeah, sorry I actually meant to say illegal downloads. I don't know anyone at all who is totally against ilegal downloads.

Perhaps its down to the company you keep?

This is one of the problems I see with the torrent sites I use. They have established themselves as a large sharing community by putting rules on the ammount you have to upload before you can keep downloading. When somebody uploads a torrent, for example say, Carry On - Roll With The Punches, thats a record I am looking to buy so I download it to listen to it before I actually go onto buying it. I could leave this torrent seeding for 4 days and another 10 people could download it. I personally do not think that even half of these people are downloading the torrent with the same intentions as me, thats where I see the problem, most of these guys are downloading a hell of alot and then seeding it back for people to do the same, whereas there are some kids like myself who actually have the intention of buying the record too.

So you are part of the problem, guilty by association if you like. If, as you say, you see it as a problem then perhaps when you reach a decision on downloading you will address it and find a way not to contribute to that? Or you may find a way to justify that problem, either way i'd like to hear the outcome.

See, I had this discussion with a friend just the other day about these ringtone TV adverts and stuff. I do not know a single person who subscribes to these or pays for there ringtones, but there must be a large volume of people who do, otherwise how could these companies fund TV adverts to advertise there service?

Have you never heard someones phone ring with a dumb ringtone? I'm pretty much a recluse and i have heard these things, its not just the TV ones, all mobile providers have ringtone downloads. I mean you can't be blind to this stuff when the uk actually has a ringtone top the charts; perhaps you have chosen to ignore its existence, which is understandable, and now you are convinced by the bliss of ignorance?

It's the same with paying to download music, I do not know a single person who does this either.

Perhaps you do but perhaps you don't know they do or again perhaps you just don't keep that type of company?

What i find interesting is that whilst you say you don't know anyone that pays to download you probably do know people that pay for a CD, its really not that different, just a format change, they are still paying for something they can probably get cheaper easily enough. I mean i remember when CD's first came out (yes, i'm that old) and at the time i didn't know anyone with a CD player, let alone anyone who would spend the extra £5 on a CD - the same was true of DVD's for a brief while - DVD's were like £20 compared to the £10 video - couldn't justify paying that much for some DVD extras and digital sound, i was happy with video. Its shocking to think that now really. The pro's of CD's were in the quality etc. Personally i find a pro for downloads now is in the fact that if i buy any new CD's i struggle to find a place for them as well as the ease of purchase. Of course this still doesn't address why you would pay rather than get it for free? Well it keeps coming back to the ethical thing really. But plenty of people aren't happy buying pirate cd's and prefer to buy an original, i mean every car boot sale has a guy called nigel selling knock off cd's and dvd's, why doesn't everyone get their stuff there? I think people will get more intune with downloading things and technology will run with that and paying to download something won't be as odd to you, in fact it will be pretty much the same as someone popping into virgin megastore to buy an album. Its pretty much there it just needs to smooth out. There is a lot of work done to inhibit piracy even though its insanely easy to pirate and distribute something right now, thinking about it though, it always was, i mean all you needed when i was a kid was 2 vcr's.

I also looked at prices of albums and singles on Tesco and Woolworths websites and they are not that much cheaper than buying the physical CD which I found quite suprising.

They charge what people will pay. Although downloads are cheaper to produce than a cd its a very minimal amount of money that goes into producing the physical item in relation to the end price. With that in mind you shouldn't expect to have a huge saving in price, the value is in the content and not what contains it.

[hxcsxe]

i think download music in the charts or mainstream stuff coz they dnt need help but ur local hardcore and underground bands suoport them

[straightXed]

i think download music in the charts or mainstream stuff coz they dnt need help but ur local hardcore and underground bands suoport them

So steal from rich people but not poor people?

[hardcoretta]

To be honest, i download everything and i dont feel guilty about it, because there's no way to get any decent CD in this city.. Not even minor threat!

[D1988]

To be honest, i download everything and i dont feel guilty about it, because there's no way to get any decent CD in this city.. Not even minor threat!

No, I have the exact same problem, there isn't a single record store I could visit and find things I want to buy, I buy all of my records on the internet.

I am going to London in August, I hear there is a record store in Camden that sells some good records, can anybody tell me more about that?

[straightXed]

To be honest, i download everything and i dont feel guilty about it, because there's no way to get any decent CD in this city.. Not even minor threat!

Mail order, often works out cheaper than shops and they will send you free stuff too.

If you download it for free or pay for the download which would you do?

Why don't you feel guilt for taking something without paying for it, is it because you haven't thought of it as theft or because you don't really care about the effort people put into making it? Is it just music you'd steal or is there anything else?