I understand where you are coming from. The truth is I have yet to see any effect of it at all. Also, if they get interested in straight edge because of this CM Punk character, who's to say the won't get into the hardcore scene. I'm sure they all have google, they can look it up.Originally Posted by straightXed
Theres already enough people online that feel hardcore is not a crucial element of straightedge. I can point you to evidence of this if you really like. And if some take the time to learn about what straightedge truly is before making a choice then thats great, thats why this site is here, so that people who have questions on the matter can ask and find out...and a lot do, i am noticing quite a lot of people coming here because they have learnt about straightedge through cm punk.
Some don't like the answers and leave it, some learn and become straightedge, some are just not interested in accepting what others say as they have grown accustomed to the idea that being a fan of cm punk is relative enough and continue to disregard hardcore. Some won't ever bother to find out much at all, based on many reactions from cm punk threads and discussions it tends to be that the hardcore scene isn't really relative to a lot of the kids that are into theatrical wrestling, i think the ammount of kids that truly get involved sincerely with the hardcore scene as a byproduct of wrestling is rather few compared to the percentage of the cm punk fanbase that are happy to mindlessly apply the term straightedge as descriptive of themselves.
Others walk the bow, I walk the string
Saying wrestling fans are stupid is just unfair and ignorant
The internet, in fact, has killed the wrestling bussiness which is why if you ask any pro wrestler they'll say that fans are see the "biz" for what it is: showmanship
this is why i think WWE has went down to a PG rating to appeal to more of the younger demo and why ppl who hate wrestling now view fans basically like sheep, CM Punk came into WWE well known for his gimmick so everyone knew what sXe is b/c of the internet. the kids are going to be the "posers" for some time but the teens know a lot even if their are some idiots. so yea maybe they might get into HC (even that HC is part of it) and so he might be doing more good. but punk has said that he does it for himself and that he doesn't belong to a sXe community.
CM Punk is sXe and involved in the scene and if you ask me if he's accepted by H20 and other legends if you will, then he's down.
Punk has been sXe since 93~94 waaay longer than any of us so if he wants to use his "gimmick" on t.v. i think he deserves to, WWE does NOT own the straight edge gimmick so it's unfair to say he disrespects or doesn't care for the scene.
he's not trying to taking HC out of sXe on the contrary he's promoting the HC part of it too their is even an article on his wwe page about his part in the "nothing to prove" h20 video. so kids may get into HC and when they grow up they know what its about but for now the drug free thing a positive message so far. teens know about sXe because the internet has been a big part of wrestling awareness but the real idoits out there would hate him because he's a heel (badguy)
Punk is a veteran so I think ppl should give him the benefit of the doubt about his intentions. and yes sXe is getting more mainstream awareness but that doesn't mean it will turn commercialized (or separated from HC) especailly because of its image some places as a gang, there has to be a transitional period where ppl have to understand it even if in the process ther will be some posers. this just helps to give edge a better name.
as a side note, ppl can be drug free for life but won't always be involved in the scene forever. ppl get old and stop going to shows and such and so their has to be a new generation, and like it or not that generation will bring a change of opinions eventually it will run counter to the beginnings as with all movements and ideas.
not sure who this is in response too, who are you saying is ignorant?
How has the internet killed wrestling?
I first experienced the WWE/WWF in the 80's and people held negative views of those who followed it then i don't think thats anything new. not entirely sure what you are saying with the part about sxe, the internet, posers etc. But if he says he is not a part of the straightedge community then how is he straightedge?
So why would he say he is not a part of the community? Why does he not speak more of the community and give a proper understanding to what it truly means to be straight edge? Thats the issue i have.
How is it unfair, you don't have to own something to damage it. And it doesn't really matter how long he has been edge if he is no longer supporting that community besides there are some folks on here that have been edge longer than that...does that really make any difference? nope!
Then he has made quite the U-turn because his words of the past made no mention of the importance of hardcore and how thats what makes straightedge unique.
well unfortunately the fact remains that a lot of kids that learn about straightedge via wrestling have little to no idea about the vital aspect of hardcore. Thats what i see when a lot of kids turn up here and other places discussing straightedge and its great when they come here because people here will point them in the right direction but there are other places where people don't appreciate the importance of hardcore and thus things get lost and you end up with kids claiming edge with no idea what hardcore even is let alone going to a show. Thats the reality of it and thats why its dangerous.
What kind of reasoning is that?
Well it being used as a gimmick to market a wrestler is commercialisation is it not? And if there are kids claiming edge based on watching wrestling and never going to a show or picking up a judge record then unfortunately that is seperation from hardcore and it does happen.
Yes you are right people do move on and the scene does change, it has changed a lot in my short time involved in it but there are still core ethics that run true in the lyrics and the actions of those involved, if it sways to far away from what it was it becomes something else...at that point its over. Straightedge has lasted well because all the people involved are the same people its aimed at and it works out. there will always be new opinions voiced, thats what has always been so good about a scene where everyone involved moulds it but there are somethings that are just inherent to its very existance that you cannot really ignore...like the platform that these ideas are put accross on...i.e. hardcore.
Others walk the bow, I walk the string
Sorry I can't figure out this reply thing for the forums. This Guy
Well first off the internet was ruined the wrestling biz b/c people now know all about how it works and also know the private lives of wrestlers. It's easier to predict outcomes of matches and so WWE, I suspect, appeals to kids who don't care to find out so they write storylines that are too simplistic with goodguy badguy (but that's another story sorry I was getting off track there. in that last post)
Like I said there is always going to be posers. Even without Punk so why does it bother you that more ppl are discovering sXe? He says he's Straight Edge for himself although he is friends with some sXe bands. WWE like I said appeals to kids so they only want to air the parts about the drug free stuff. It sends a positive message first but who knows maybe will in the future. He's been in wwe for a while but its only been about 2 years since he's been recognized by fans that hadn't already known his awesome career in the indies. I think he thinks that ppl already know about sXe or that it hasn't occured to him. He has said in an interview in his early WWE career that straight edge was a underground subculture (at the time he started claiming it) that was heavily involved in music.
based on what he says in interview that he "sometimes hates to label different genres of music. There's good music and bad music. he says. so that's why he doesn't specify HC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCH3xRq5guk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1W08po8-6o
As for the whole he's a veteran so give him the benefit of the doubt, about that part, first off minor threat never said anything about "I (don't) smoke, don't drink, don't listen to other forms of music. at least I can f-ing think"
What about commercialism? that's eventually going to happen (and already has remember the partnership for drug free america commercials? I seen them on youtube)
It's not going to make the movement meaningless because its not like a corporation can own the term or anything lol. if the only reason you don't want anyone to commercialize about sXe is b/c you don't want posers than like i said there is always going to be ppl who call themselves sXe but don't know about it. if they find out through CM Punk they go online and look it out, its not hard. the wikipedia page I think shows the history of sXe. but personally CM Punk has motivated me to read up on it more by ordering some book on it by Ross Heifler and others. And I'm now proud to say Punk inspired me to be sXe. that's my experience.
I'm not saying sXe and HC don't go hand in hand but what happend in the furute when ppl who are true get too old to go to shows and such (but still support the bands) but some band are preaching they're take on sXe as just a choice and a lifestyle, that would raise lots of kids to turn that way as it grows (and we do want edge to stay it will only grow it does) it might be inevitable. and then the older members have tattooes and still take the same stance? doesn't that still make them edge even if they're done with scene stuff and have a family to raise? I hope that clarifies things.
But don't some fans get involved in that backyard wrestling?
I don't get it, what did the internet do exactly? What is known now that wasn't known before? Haven't the story lines always been pretty predictable?
Did you not read what i wrote? I already explained what my issue is with people discovering sxe in a way that doesn't give them the full picture. This is not about posing or punk this is about not being clear on things and allowing misconceptions to widespread.
It could come accross as a pretty selfish attitude you know.
And if i were he that would bother me, if i am asked questions on straightedge for peoples school work, zines or whatever then i will ensure that the musical aspect and the scene itself is discussed. The only reason i can see for the music not to be put forward by WWE is that it would take away from the cool factor to a fair few kids. Whats not positive abvout a scene that is run by kids involved and embraces people with positive mindsets...the drug free stuff is not straightedge until you add the scene and the music. As for where it will go in the future...well it certainly lays a path toward possible misconception, you can't argue that.
Ok?
Well thats all well and good but labels are important, hardcore is a genre of music related to straightedge, we use these labels to describe and define things. Nothing in those interviews really combats the potential problems him using straightedge as a wrestling gimmick could cause. Having a job that doesn't allow you to give the full picture and/or emphasise the importance of the music and the scene with straightedge does kind of question how important that scene is to him, how much value or importance does he place on what makes straightedge alive and real.
What has minor threat got to do with anything? And who said don't listen to other forms of music? How does that explain the veteren thing at all?
Minor threat are not gospel, they actually didn't even allign themselves with the straightedge movement. They coined a term in the song straight edge (so why you quote out of step is curious) a term that was addopted by haerdcore kids in the scene and who became the driving force of making that subculture exist. I am not belittling minor threat here but it could just as easily been something said by uniform choice or whatever. The kids that were involved in making the scene a place where drug free hardcore kids could enjoy themselves with there all ages srtraightedge shows which were self promoted etc. These kids are the true voice, and the bands that play are made up by these same kids. The importance of the scene and the music seems to get understated and even ignored all to quickly and even more so when kids aren't experiencing it first hand.
And the point i am driving home is that to keep straightedge and hardcore alive and well you have to ensure the controlling force of that scene and subculture resides with the kids within it.
Yeah laugh out loud, you seem to miss the point that i wrote in the previous post. Its not about owning the term...like i said you don't need to own something to damage it. Its marketable, they are free to market it as they please and essentially milk it until it becomes as meaningless as the term punk. If you don't give a fuck about that then you need to think about it some more because attitude towards it stinks.
You are obviously having a hard time reading, this was never about poseurs, i don't even know what you are on about with posuers, i am refering to and always have been refering to misconceptions.
But a lot of kids don't do that and a lot of kids will just continue to think the term applies to them because they see a lot of other kids involved in wrestling using the term. Its creating a pocket of people that can grow external to the scene. They may get used to the term before they even come accross hardcore and at that point they might hate hardcore but will be reluctent to stop using their new found term to describe themselves. It has been happening on the internet for quite sometime and unfortunately this CM punk explosion serves to cater to it more so.
Its a very new dynamic, its like cm punk is a hero figure, hardcore never really had those so much, everyone was equal, the bands that play were no more important than the kids that show up or made the show, all voices were equal. Suggesting reading a wikipeadia page is bullshit, you should suggest going to a show and getting involved in the scene. Be the history and be active in shaping it. Its great that you are straightedge and its great that you are all about hardcore and the hardcore scene but you seem somewhat blinkered to the possible flipside of the coin and its becoming clear that is because you have placed a particular value on cm punk and his influence.
Good because if you did you would be the wrongest you have ever been.
I don't go to many shows nowadays, i am older...i am under no delusions that for me straightedge may become irrelevent to me one day. But as it stands i go to shows once in a while i still buy records and am still actively supporting the scene in that way. I fail to see what this has to do with anything though?
This is impossible to understand, proof read please!!
It clarifys nothing, what does having a tattoo have to do with it? You are way out there on a tangent. If they are done with it then they are done with it, what stance would they be taking if they were done with hardcore? It would be a personal one and not one of straightedge. If they have grown apart from the scene and were no longer involved or had any interest then they would just be a typical drug free dude who was once straightedge. You can't take away what they were but that remains the past and you have to look at what they are now. Little of this has any relevence to the actual point i have here though so i am unsure what you are actually getting at.
Others walk the bow, I walk the string
If you're not involved in the HC scene you're not straight edge, I get that but come on for life? the way to be involved firsthand is by going to shows that's what gives you the right to voice you opinion or by starting a band. I don't know about you but I can't be going to shows all my life either. Once you get so old you don't really have a voice anymore even if you're active in forums like these and if new kids get into the scene and they have new ideas: let's say they put less emphasis on the whole scene aspect and stress more about just the drug free aspect, even though they go to shows which I am seeing very often. and you try to correct them but you can't because who's going to listen to an old man who's too old for shows? Do you mean to say when you get that old so that you can't protect the emphasis on the scene and bands etc., you aren't straight edge anymore but someone who is just now only drug free. weren't you the one who said that sXe has changed in the time you joined? but the underlying concepts stay the same.
Minor threat didn't want to identify with sXe because of the gang association and fanaticism in the early 90s, they were sXe before that and set the very first core values of sXe which originally was that Ian didn't drink or smoke. Kids followed that and made it a movement even though he didn't intend it to be movement, he still promoted the values. so he has been active in the scene enough to take those opinions seriously. Now other ppl entering the sXe scene had there say but I think Ian's message was simple enough. Like you said the reflections of what sXe should be representational of those involved. CM PUNK is involved and obviously in the beggining you didn't have to be involved in the scene for life. the issue was never addressed.
I'm not saying that you think this but I'm curious how you or anyone else would address this issue by the line reasoning mentioned in that first paragraph. eventually in the long run the ppl who have impacted edge will die and the next generation will have a set of different opinions. I think ppl are beggining to demphasize the consumerist part of buying albums and stuff or (even going to shows) which is sad but there may not much the veteran edgers can do if speecking on the long run. correct me if i'm wrong, honestly I'm not being sarcastic. I don't think you have to voice your opinion for life because the only way you can is by going to shows and being apart of other edgers and if you do who would listen to an old clique. even if you could tell newer generations the truth what can you do after so long. It's not destoying edge its changing it. Like you said everyone has an equal voice and to dismiss other's opinions as destructive to sXe is egocentric. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just stating my opinions as edge myself.
maybe you're right CM PUNK involentarily sending a simplistic view on sXe and as a result kids will call themselves straight edge without caring for HC. I got me there. You don't have to bite my head off. I'm trying to have detached discourse here without the emotional tension. oh by the way CM Punk isn't my only hero, and I respect and try to consider all the influential bands and people who shaped edge. Oh and CM Punk isn't the only force behind this change in edge. plz don't go there.
btw however you respond I'm happy to have a conversation w/ someone like you who really cares enough to correct newbies like me. Really, I'm trying my hardest to understand the finer details of sXe. You're right wikipedia can't give me an good enough take on straight edge neither have I got anything good enough on the internet either. Straightedge.com only gave a short list of sxe ideals but I this forum did.
based on your introduction thread, you stated that this is all pretty new to you. Do you really think you know enough about straight edge and it's history to start talking about it to people who have been involved in it for years and years? There are a lot of statements you've made that come off as naive and some that are simply incorrect. I think you need to go to some shows, talk to some people and try to get a real understanding why some people, a lot of people in straight edge, aren't all that happy about CM Punk and how he portrays straight edge as a wrestling gimmick.
If you no longer have an interest in hardcore and the scene how are you involved? If you aren't involved and don't have an interest in it then what makes you straightedge in the now? Are you even reading what i wrote?
This is complete ignorance, you really show yourself up here. These kids that may lessen the association of hardcore are working away from straightedge, straightedge is more than drug free purely because of the music based subculture...once you remove that there is nothing unique and to describe it as straightedge is not only erronous but also pointless as it is simply then nothing but being drug free. You have a messed up idea of things and its not one that rings true of how the scene actually is right now. And for the record, its people who are active in the scene young and old alike that are correcting those that lessen the importance of the hardcore element.
When did i suggest that...you seem to be replying to things i simply havent said. I mean to say that when hardcore and the scene is no longer of any interest to you that straightedge is also no longer of interest because you cannot remove harsdcore and still have straightedge...that is one of the things that make it what it is. And yes i was the one that said the straightedge scene has changed in my time, what of it?
Wrong. I think its time to research that a little more.
You have a messed up version of how things went down and an odd perception of active in the scene.
See you sound like what mackaye said was somehow gospel, way too much emphasis on one guy whos involvement is way overstated
Its simple logic...if you aren't involved with it now you aren't involved with it now...no one is saying about it being for life, i am simply saying quite clearly that if you choose to take a path away from hardcore and leave that behind then that is exactly what you do and thus at that point you are no longer involved.
What?
If i have a car and i take two wheels off, swap out the steering for handlebars, rebuild the engine and put it in between two wheels, remove the chassis, make a bike like frame and add a saddle until it represents a motor bike. At that point do i still have a car or has it now become something new...a bike? If things change enough they become something different and new...if the new opinions remove hardcore that is enough for it to no longer be straightedge.
What?
I will try but you don't make things very clear!
What are you even discussing here? Who is talking about expressing their opinion for life? And why wouldn't someone listen to someone involved in the scene for a long time, a lot of bands are made up by older guys, a lot of older guys are still in the scene and share the same views as the younger kids...you just don't get it.
Your opinions are ignorant and ignore the issue though. This isn't about old and young at all but those that understand straightedge and those that see fit to remove a vital and crucial element...the music. I never said everyone one had an equal voice, they don't, everyone involved in the scene has an equal voice those that don't care about the scene and all that it involves can fuck off. And newer generatiopns have been comming to straightedge for years and all that time of like 30 years it has remained in hardcore and has been active in that music scene and has had new kids and old kids learning from each other and sharing ideas to create a scene that remains self sufficiant in so many ways. It has continually been a topic of songs over the years to keep this scene alive. Its something those involved are pasionate about and new kids who get involved in shows feel exactly the same way.
I think i was wrong to use the word inadvertantly, as he does it by choice, he chooses to let things be that way.
I didn't bite your head off in the slightest, you may be feeling sensitive about the honesty of the response is all.
To be honest your discourse seems to be largely detached from the things i am actually saying.
When did i "go there"? Why do you suspect i am not aware of other negative impacts on the straightedge scene? I wasn't really making a point of him being your only hero but rather discussing the idea of having heroes at all. Read it again, you might understand what i was getting at better.
And thats precisely the point...you know more about CM Punk than a lot of people but still are demonstrating a really sketchy understanding of straightedge, the only way you understand straightedge is by being involved with the scene, you learn so much that way and it shows you its true colours, all the stuff that simply doesn't translate on websites or by wrestling etc. theres a reason kids young and old who are involved in it are so passionate about things like cm punk and the more you get involved the more you will see how the two perceptions are worlds apart. One is a vibrant and alive world with values and goals passion and the other is just lacking anything of significant substance and the later is what i am speaking out against.
Others walk the bow, I walk the string
I'm on the WWE forums now, and there are more then a few people who only claim edge because of CM Punk. Now, not saying that's a bad thing, but with his current gimmick, the whole "I'm straight edge and therefore I'm better then you" everyone thinks that that is the way edge works.. I had a discussion with 2 blokes that didn't know mostly anything about edge 'cept the not drinking and drug free bit now claim edge cos of him..
I don't think the term posers really addresses the issue...i think the words misdirecting and unrelated are words that i would use.
Others walk the bow, I walk the string
I know some of the people in here dont like CM Punk, but I myself am a wrestling fan. If it wasn't because of him, I would have probably have never known about the straightedge movement.
I know it appears to be a gimmick, but he is actually staightedge in real life. When he is a face (good guy) he is just his normal self, but as a heel (bad guy) he pushes the fact he is better than everyone because he is straightedge.
He's not a bad guy or doing bad things for the movement, in my eyes he is promoting it :)
Except he only promotes a small part of it, the anti drug stance, and forgets to mention the music and subculture that actually make straight edge what it is. Something that has leas to a lot of people calling themselves edge who aren't and diluting the scene and the meaning of straight edge.
Yeah, the thing is just because he is straightedge in real life doesn't make any difference to it being a gimmick or not. If anyone of us here were to do the same thing it would be using straightedge as a gimmick. But as has already been mentioned he isn't exactly promoting straightedge...he is taking elements of straightedge to promote himself...its just a bit weak and can give a rather undesired effect.
Others walk the bow, I walk the string
He actually did name drop a few Edge bands a couple weeks ago, specifically he mentioned Minor Threat, Youth of Today and Have Heart. While that's far from a comprehensive list we have to remember he mentioned three bands most wrestling fans have never heard of on the air in front of thousands of people, and he didn't HAVE to do that. I got the impression it was his idea to show some love and respect to hardcore during that promo, and that he meant it.
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