music and edge

[PROPER JERK]

I think it needs to grow outside of hardcore so anyone can benefit from being straight-edge.

I don't think it needs to grow outside hardcore. Straight Edge is a philosophy that involves hardcore, it isn't straight edge without it. Straight Edge is also something that is very personal, you choose straight edge because of the impact hardcore has on you... the feelings it gives you and of course not everyone is going to feel that way or like hardcore. Some people might want to be drug free but it would be pretty stupid if there was people claiming edge or with x's on the back of their hands yet not listening to hardcore or being involved in hardcore. How are we delusional, how is it a trend to us?

[xsecx]

It's a pretty big accusation to call all of you delusional, but in this day and age, it's a pretty safe generalization.

To most of you it's a trend.

considering your introduction post stated you didn't even know anything about hardcore or straight edge bands, how are you in any position to pass judgment on what straight edge is or isn't?

[straightXed]

How would a person benefitting from the sXe philosphy not be leaving straight edge intact? From your description of "stripping it down" you seem to be referring to anyone upholding straight edge ideals with a negative outlook. Straight edge is still the same thing whether or not it's affiliated strictly to hardcore. I don't understand why you would fail to support anyone who decided to be straight edge, that's a major turn off and a lack of support. Since when was straight edge about being musically fascist?

Is hardly fascist to use accurate definitions, i'm not fascist about people being drug free but why would they need the term straightedge when that boils down to hardcore + being drug free. Straightedge isn't the same if you remove one of its defining elements. I'm not failing to support anyone, i think being free of drugs is a great thing, furthermore i am supportive in people accurately describing themselves. If you are removing hardcore then you are stripping it down so it no longer resembles straightedge.

Anything is easier said than done and collectively it's always much easier. Straight Edge is not a musical genre and I don't see why you continue to refer to it as one. A musical genre is desrcibed by certain traits and musical techniques, not the philsophy behind the indiviuals creating that music. And if the straight edge scene is litered with people who share your fascist outlook, how can it enable everyone to be involved as equals like you claim? Would a person actively participating in a mosh pit under the influence of alcohol be regaurded as an "equal?" I think not.

actually straightedge hardcore is a genre as it is defined and distinguished by its content and style which can be further broken down in to seperate sub genres but if we are to get that intricate it would help if you had some knowledge of what straightedge hardcore bands were. Again claiming my outlook is fascist doesn't make it so and you aren't actually explaining how it is fascist. How doesn't it enable people involved to be equal? Aside from the fact that the person drinking wouldn't be straightedge soit really isn't relative to the point in hand there are almost always people drinking at hardcore shows even straightedge hardcore shows. They are treated with equal respect for the large majority of the time so they would be regarded an equal in that sense but no they wouldn't be regarded as straightedge but what difference does that make?

Once again, there is no "movement" to straight edge, you can fantasize all day about how you are going to change the the world, by being in a mosh pit, but it's not going to happen. Period. Straight Edge is a lifestyle and personal belief, nothing more. It's not a political party or collective attendance of fascist conciousness, it's a belief system for one's beneficial purposes. The only movement is in one's life.

How is there no movement? who said anything about changing the world? The straightedge hardcore scene is the movement, it acheives its purpose by giving like minded people a place to share, its aim is to be able to exist on its own terms and be set aside from the bullshit as well as give everyone the oppertunity to actively participate on an equal level. The idea of huge bands playing on stage seemingly untouchable by the crowd is dismissed and we have established an approach that puts the bands and the crowds on the same level. Straightedge within hardcore has made a scene more accessable to younger kids, giving them something to be a part of. None of this is a fantasy and while it may not fit your idea of a movement it does fit the dictionary definition of movement, we have common goals and we work towards them, this has impacted worldwide. You can see it as no movement but it made a huge difference to the way things were and if you want to ignore that then go ahead.

Please explain to me how Wikipedia is a "very unreliable source?" It's an online encyclopedia, sir, and encyclopedias document historical events if you hadn't noticed. Please type in any historical event you can recollect into Wikipedia and prove any of it's content is unfactual. More directly, prove to me how anything Wikipedia calims about edge is false.

Because if you didn't know "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." thats is why it isn't reliable, i don't need to prove anything more.

No, but since this is a straight edge forum, I had assumed that the members would realize I am talking about underground music with participants claiming edge. I don't know of underground hip-hop participants claiming straight edge, so naturally, I wouldn't be talking of that genre of underground. I am taking about the genres of underground music that have shared the same venues as even bands that are hardcore. I'm not talking about all underground music. I'm sorry I was too vague for you, I'll remember not to make that mistake again.

There is a reason why the word "ass" appears in assumed. Its by no means natural toknow that you are unaware of underground hip hop so you weren't talking about that. That would require a level of mind reading. If you aren't talking about all underground music you would need to specify rather than just saying underground music. Appology accepted but please think before you type.

And I never said it evolved from hardcore punk (which I was referring to the time of the origin of punk when I called it hardcore, because in comparison to other music at the time, it truly was "hardcore."), I said it's closely related to it. And the underground music scene did evolve punk which evolved from the British Invasion which evolved from Skiffle bands which envolved from early 1920's rock and Nightclub jazz, and Vise Versa. We can even say Slayer has evolved from The Beatles, I don't care how you look at, and I'm not really too concerned about the chornological order of the evolution of underground music, I'm more concerned about straight edge and understanding why it can not stray from "Hardcore," in your opinion. And when I was talking about the relationship of the underground rock music scene to the "Punk" or "Hardcore Punk" scence I was talking about both of them being a self sustaining subculture of music. Bottom line.

If it strays from hardcore it loses a defining element, and becomes simply drug free, the term straightedge wouldn't accurately describe it any longer, it would be something new and a new term would describe it. For instance if it were drug free with in hip hop they may coin a term to describe that but as its describing something new it wouldn't be the term straightedge which already has an established definition which only really applies within the hardcore scene. Just like there is enough difference for hardcore not to be punk and punk not to be hardcore. If you look at exactly how the hardcore scene and straightedge has worked for the past 25+ years you will see why hardcore is a part of being straightedge. And whilst i think it would be great for everyone to be drug free of their own choice i don't think that watering down what straightedge means would have any chance of achieving that. People love to try and misuse the term straightedge for reasons of being cool or a funky way to label themselves but within hardcore it has a much stronger and profound meaning. Hardcore is a platform to address all things straightedge, people have worked very hard to establish this and we really don't want to see people just come along and co opt the term and change it to fit them as they see fit. I say to those people get some imagination and do your own work on making a term that fits what you are. Straightedge isn't just about drug free it is also about hardcore and that is a very very important element of it, if that seems fascist well its not, its like you wanting to reuse an artists work for your own ends, if you want to ignore or even defile an artists work by discarding a defining element than that doesn't make the artist a fascist when they become upset. We aren't a club that you aren't allowed to join but if you don't fit the definition of straightedge there is no reason for you to use the term or even want to when it doesn't fit. Bottom line.

Musically, yes. Straight Edge, no. No-one initially becomes straight edge listening Nickelback. I never said "all underground came from punk" I said it's closely related in the fact it does not rely on agents and big record labels to guide them through their music career, because that's what defines "underground music," sir.

Ummm, punk...EMI, BMG.

How can you claim edge if you don't believe in supporting the music and following through on a personal commitment of abstaince from substance abuse? Like I said, if you claim edge and neglect this belief as your own, you must be claiming edge for reputation purposes of some delusional kind. Having X tattoos doesn't make you straight edge, it's the philosphy behind it, not the symbol itself. Wearing an A surrounded by a circle on your t-shirt doesn't make you an anarchist, especially if you bought the t-shirt at a store and paid taxes on it.

Who said i don't support the music related to straightedge? I think you should re read what i wrote. And remember you posted underground music, not hardcore.

How does music in general promote straight edge? And how do all hardcore bands promote sXe? I think the lyrical content is decided by the lyricist and what they feel, as music is a form of art, and art is a form of personal expression. It's not the genre of music that promotes anything other than emotions. Hardcore can promote the use of drug use just as quickly as not.

Are you seriously asking how straightedge hardcore bands promote a straightedge message? Who said all hardcore bands promte straightedge? Lyrics are part of the music, straightedge hardcore tends to be rather generic as the lyrics tend to reinforce the thoughts of most the people, people are singing about what is happening in a scene that everyone is a part of. It could be singing about how people dance or raising issues of equality within the scene. Its simply a platform that anyone can get on to express themselves, so many bands come and go and its because its part of what makes hardcore vibrant rather than the same old tired singers talking about things that aren't really relative. Further more there are zines that promote messages and because anyone can get involved and book shows etc. you can express yourself by putting on a show with the bands that you feel best express what you wanna see in the scene. Sure some hardcore bands talk about doing drugs, whats your point?

And I think it's a huge stretch for you to quickly discredit the direct support I (or anyone else) have given underground musical artists and the sobriety I have obtained under my own discretion.

Where did i discredit it? What thread are you reading? I am not discrediting any support you have placed anywhere so please respond to what is written not what you want to respond to. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding due to your vagueness? But iwrote that supporting underground techno doesn't support straightedge, i wrote that its a ridiculous idea to think you are supporting straightedge if you are not attending straightedge shows or supporting straightedge bands etc. Again, think before you type.

I'm edge, whether I've picked up a "straight edge" album or I've been to a "striaght edge show." And I don't need someone across internet telling me I'm not.

Well regardless if you need it or not, you aren't straightedge if you aren't supporting straightedge hardcore. Perhaps you'd prefer people totell you that in person so i suggest seeking out your local straightedge hardcore scene. And try and think up a new term that describes you if you aren't into hardcore. Its not difficult, i mean you are associating yourself with straightedge hardcore and you've never even picked up a record, you realise how silly that is.

And no, I have never been to an "edge show." I have gotten into shows without sporting the X on my hands or even taking a breathalizer test.

Huh? is this a joke? Why would youneed a breathalizer test toget into a show?

"Beliefs must evolve or face extinction." Underground music whether it be, math, indie, grindcore, punk. metal or thrash, all share some elements with hardcore even if you fail to realize that, and that in itself is enough appreciation of harcore to represent edge. How are you going to preach to me about ethics of underground music? I have bought 12 albums in the past four months directly from the artists themselves, which is all my income will allow me. I don't download music either.

How do i fail to realise that when i have clearly stated that they share simularities but are not the same, you did read the things i wrote right? or did you just post in reply to things you wanted to reply to that weren't even there? You really don't get it do you, if i buy a bunch of underground hip hop artists records i am not supporting hardcore artists. I haven't once preached to you about your support of underground musicians but if you aren't supporting hardcore and straightedge hardcore then how are you supporting the straightedge scene which has given straightedge a place to live and evolve for the last 25+ years, you just want to use the term whilst everyone else does the hard work of keeping straightedge music around - yes straightedge music, thats hardcore music pertaining to and preformed by straightedge hardcore people. I don't care what records you buy but if you are using a term that is relevent to straightedge hardcore kids then those records should be supporting that. I mean if you think we are all a bunch of fascists then why associate with us and why use our terms todescribe yourself?

I never said I was against capatilism, only imperialistic capatilism. Relapse Records has adpated a capatlist method of trade, without it they would surely fall. Mainstream music isn't based on talent, but record sales, and we all know this. System of a Down is an extremely talented musical act, and they are mainstream.

I never said you were either, it was a question. Ok and perhaps talent helps make sales? I don't know what system of a down sounds like so i will have to take your word on it but talent comes in many ways, i mean musical technical ability often won't surpass the talent of showmanship, entertainment does take talent and as hideous as the music industry is they look for talent that they can market, it is based upon talent when you look at it objectively.

But alas, you mis-interpret the context of my words.

Because you are completely unclear in what you type.

I never said a connection to straight edge, a connection to straight edge is within the individual and his/her bond with other edgers, not by going to a concert, connections and relationships in general are an upheld ideal in straight edge, and you can make connections and relationships with humans no matter what concert you go to. You can also buy records from merch tables at underground show, wcich is more connecting to the artists that , but you aren't going to connect with the musicians buying CDs from BestBuy.

The point is you were talking about music that isn't related to straightedge, you won't get a connection to what the reality of straightedge is without actually going to where straightedge lives and exists as a movement. You can talk to other drug free people and connect to them but to connect to straightedge you need to go where straightedge people go and where straightedge exists, that is within the hardcore scene.

But alas, you also fail to realize those who are deaf can also be straight edge. But that's a whole new subject for you.

Those who are deaf can also go to straightedge shows, theres a deaf drummer that supports the local scene here, and he is into it more than most. Its not a new subject for me, thats you making ASSumptions again.

I have decided that I don't need people across country telling me if I'm edge or not because I don't like their music, and for this reason, I am canceling my membership, and never coming back to the forums.

Ok, perhaps you will think about the fact that whilst you call yourself straightedge you disagree with the consensus of what straightedge people think. Also that you call yourself something which you do not actively participate in and don't support those that do. Its great to know that you are so quick to turn your back on a discussion when what is written doesn't fit your pre conceived ideas, instead of actually sticking around to learn about a scene and movement you obviously know little about. I can only hope you either quit calling yourself something you don't support or agree with or that you actually decide to learn about it. you are the one who keeps mentioning beliefs needing to evolve yet you are so very against leeting yours evolve by interacting with the straightedge people here who can offer a lot of help. I don't think you can cancel your membership and even though you say you won't be back i am pretty sure you will be and i'm pretty sure you will post here again, if i am wrong i am wrong but i think you'll reply. When you do, think about what you say first.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

If you are removing hardcore then you are stripping it down so it no longer resembles straightedge.

I'm sorry sir, what exactly is your definition of hardcore, because I'm under the impression hardcore music are bands like "Terror."

And you know what, I don't get don't with that pussy metal. Terror is weak. And Hatebreed. Generic metal bands with chugga chugga breakdowns for tough guys in tattoos to dance to.

Let me ask you this:

As long as there is an underground scene "with a mosh pit," and you support it, are you not straight edge by definition ((of your opinion because there doesn't seem to be any literature of a sXe bible lying around)(of course in conjunction to that, this person would be remaining free of life-draining and impairing substances))?

Again claiming my outlook is fascist doesn't make it so and you aren't actually explaining how it is fascist.

Let me put this in terms you will understand, you've heard of Limp Bizkit "hardcore?"

The "It's my way or the highway," type of mentality is what makes you fascist.

Once again, "Beliefs must evolve or face extinction."

How is there no movement? who said anything about changing the world? The straightedge hardcore scene is the movement, it acheives its purpose by giving like minded people a place to share, its aim is to be able to exist on its own terms and be set aside from the bullshit as well as give everyone the oppertunity to actively participate on an equal level. The idea of huge bands playing on stage seemingly untouchable by the crowd is dismissed and we have established an approach that puts the bands and the crowds on the same level. Straightedge within hardcore has made a scene more accessable to younger kids, giving them something to be a part of.

This, I agree with you totally, except for this movement hasn't remain strictly to hardcore, it's also very apparent in the underground indie music scene as well.

Because if you didn't know "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." thats is why it isn't reliable, i don't need to prove anything more.

You've made a claim, and I was just asking you to back that up with evidence.

Is there anything on the Wikipedia page in reference to "sXe" that you disagree to be fact, and if so, how is it not fact?

There is a reason why the word "ass" appears in assumed. Its by no means natural toknow that you are unaware of underground hip hop so you weren't talking about that. That would require a level of mind reading. If you aren't talking about all underground music you would need to specify rather than just saying underground music. Appology accepted but please think before you type.

Thanks for accepting my apology, man. Need to respect each other.

If it strays from hardcore it loses a defining element, and becomes simply drug free

No, sir, I didn't say anyone abstaining from drugs is "sXe." I said anyone drug-free and supporting underground music is participating in "sXe" practices and beliefs.

For instance if it were drug free with in hip hop they may coin a term to describe that but as its describing something new it wouldn't be the term straightedge which already has an established definition which only really applies within the hardcore scene.

You are asking someone to label themselves differently than "sXe" because of a genre of music, which is totally ridiculous.

There is no need to make a new term up of for each time someone decides to practice "sXe" but doesn't like hardcore. It's ridiculous and it separates people only by a label a few letters and symbols. If you think "straight edge" is such a radical and cool term and you want it only to apply to your genre of music, that's fine, but the reality of it is that it doesn't. Indie kids have already adapted "sXe" and I have too.

And for the record, sir, "Straight edge" doesn't even sound that cool, it sounds conservative and corny.

People love to try and misuse the term straightedge for reasons of being cool or a funky way to label themselves but within hardcore it has a much stronger and profound meaning.

That is the fascist mentality I'm talking about.

Who are you to decide if a "sXe" lifestyle has a more "profound" meaning for "hardcore kids" than it doesn't "indie kids?"

The meaning can be just as strong and profound for anyone regaurdless of "hardcore."

Say, perchance, that "sXe" did evolve from rap music, and hardcore kids starting adapting "sXe" would it be any less "profound" now that the hardcore kids have choosen "sXe?"

I say to those people get some imagination and do your own work on making a term that fits what you are.

I have last night, a less fascist way of life, and until then I'm going to use the term "sXe" because that is the term people are familar with.

if you don't fit the definition of straightedge there is no reason for you to use the term or even want to when it doesn't fit. Bottom line.

Since when was opinion definition?

Ummm, punk...EMI, BMG.

Piss to that.

Lyrics are part of the music, straightedge hardcore tends to be rather generic as the lyrics tend to reinforce the thoughts of most the people, people are singing about what is happening in a scene that everyone is a part of.

Hahahaha. That is generic and cheesy as hell, and uncreative. Singing about staying free off drugs barely represents creative emotion as the best artwork is made through pain. The bands I listen to have lyrics with actually meaning, even if it's political or just about plain social inadequacies.

"Tighten the tie, lengthen the leg, suck on the shit, scramble the egg. Shed that old skin for some feathers. As noses bleed, trumpets are trumpeting, noses are bleeding. Triumphant cattle mutilations. That damn Saint Nick with chocolate-flavored razor blades."

Real art is open to interpretation, however, an anti-drug commercial is not...

Further more there are zines that promote messages and because anyone can get involved and book shows etc. you can express yourself by putting on a show with the bands that you feel best express what you wanna see in the scene.

Furthermore, this has been done for decades, it's not just a straight edge quality...

Perhaps this is a misunderstanding due to your vagueness?

Perhaps...

But iwrote that supporting underground techno doesn't support straightedge, i wrote that its a ridiculous idea to think you are supporting straightedge if you are not attending straightedge shows or supporting straightedge bands etc.

Again, you fail to realize "sXe" isn't a multi million dollar corporation or even a charity organization you can support.

"sXe" is a personal belief system that hopefully supports itself...

And try and think up a new term that describes you if you aren't into hardcore.

How about a music enthusiast? Is that term relevant enough to describe me?

Huh? is this a joke? Why would youneed a breathalizer test toget into a show?

Yes, it was a joke.

You really don't get it do you, if i buy a bunch of underground hip hop artists records i am not supporting hardcore artists.

Only naturally...

you just want to use the term whilst everyone else does the hard work of keeping straightedge music around

No, I'll use the term whether or not "sXe" music stays around. And I didn't know it was such hard work to be a fan of music.

I don't care what records you buy but if you are using a term that is relevent to straightedge hardcore kids then those records should be supporting that.

Are you saying I need to listen to records whose lyrics support being "Drug free" to be "sXe?"

I think I get more support to continue my "sXe" lifestyle from lyrics that sing about using drugs, because I have been through a tough time in my life because of my drug use, and lyrics that sing or even promote drug use is an ugly reminder of my past, and I feel more connection to that music and to my current beliefs.

I mean if you think we are all a bunch of fascists then why associate with us and why use our terms todescribe yourself?

Hahaha. You would like me to associate myself with you, wouldn't you?

I'm not associating my self with you!

I'm associating myself with the plenty of "sXe" people in my community who stray from hardcore music and coin the term "straight edge."

I don't know what system of a down sounds like

What!?! Pick yourself up the self-titled, or "Toxicity."

Because you are completely unclear in what you type.

Maybe so, but it could also be that you are completely unclear in what I type.

You can talk to other drug free people and connect to them but to connect to straightedge you need to go where straightedge people go and where straightedge exists, that is within the hardcore scene.

But not limited to.

Those who are deaf can also go to straightedge shows, theres a deaf drummer that supports the local scene here, and he is into it more than most. Its not a new subject for me, thats you making ASSumptions again.

Is it safe for me to ASSume you're 13 years old?

Ok, perhaps you will think about the fact that whilst you call yourself straightedge you disagree with the consensus of what straightedge people think.

Grand Rapids underground self proclaimed "sXe" consensus is "Be drug free, and go to shows."

Also that you call yourself something which you do not actively participate in and don't support those that do.

And if I'm going to shows, and getting in the mosh pit, (which more than half in attendance do not, Mainly the emo haircuts and studded belts stand there with their arms crossed, tapping their foot) how is that not "active participation?

Are we assuming, again...?

you are the one who keeps mentioning beliefs needing to evolve yet you are so very against leeting yours evolve by interacting with the straightedge people here who can offer a lot of help. I don't think you can cancel your membership and even though you say you won't be back i am pretty sure you will be and i'm pretty sure you will post here again, if i am wrong i am wrong but i think you'll reply. When you do, think about what you say first.

Okay sir, I'm back again because I enjoy debating but not insulting. I hope we both recognize and harness this approach to conversing, I don't want this turn into a french kiss of shear tongues.

I will come back, because I want the support, I just don't understand how you are supportive when you claim I'm not "sXe" because of this and that.

And I have also made claims of people using "sXe" as a trend, so I realize I'm guilty as well, and I'll apologize once again, because "sXe" isn't a sect or a denomination, it's a personal lifestyle and I'll respect and assume everyone here at these forums is doing their part in being "as edge as possible."

God damn, typing this book gets tiring fast and hurts my eyeballs. We need to reach some closure on this issue soon or I'm going to melt.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

considering your introduction post stated you didn't even know anything about hardcore or straight edge bands, how are you in any position to pass judgment on what straight edge is or isn't?

Just because I don't know anything about the specifics of your music, Dusty, doesn't mean I don't know about the choices I am making which pertain to a "sXe" lifestyle.

However I do know about certain choices others openly flaunt...

Theres plenty of people sucking on a nicotine cock and still blindly claim "sXe."

I also know many people who "claim" edge think it's cool to beat people up, which isn't edge, that's just called being an a**hole.

Which I only "pass judgment" upon because action contradicts words.

For the record, Straight Edge is not about male dominance, which is a very prominent assumption within the "sXe" community.

[rodrigo]

Just because I don't know anything about the specifics of your music, Dusty, doesn't mean I don't know about the choices I am making which pertain to a "sXe" lifestyle.

but sxe is a part of hardcore, you know about the choices of being drug free. seems to me you just like how the name "straight edge" sounds and like being drug free, but have no understanding of what sxe is, because you are not inside the hardcore scene and apparently never been.

For the record, Straight Edge is not about male dominance, which is a very prominent assumption within the "sXe" community.

who assumes that?

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

but sxe is a part of hardcore, you know about the choices of being drug free. seems to me you just like how the name "straight edge" sounds and like being drug free, but have no understanding of what sxe is, because you are not inside the hardcore scene and apparently never been.

"sXe" is not a part of hardcore. Hardcore is a genre, and "sXe" is a belief.

I actually think "sXe" sounds cheesy, but I'm not going to call it "xSLICExEDGExCOREx" when that isn't what it's called.

I actually care more about the lifestyle of being "sXe" then the actually pronunciation of the vowels and constants.

I do like being drug free, correct, sir.

Why would I be in the hardcore scene if I don't even like hardcore music?

I like math and grindcore.

who assumes that?

Lots of sad, sad "edge" people, unfortunately.

[rodrigo]

"sXe" is not a part of hardcore. Hardcore is a genre, and "sXe" is a belief.

I actually think "sXe" sounds cheesy, but I'm not going to call it "xSLICExEDGExCOREx" when that isn't what it's called.

I actually care more about the lifestyle of being "sXe" then the actually pronunciation of the vowels and constants.

I do like being drug free, correct, sir.

Why would I be in the hardcore scene if I don't even like hardcore music?

I like math and grindcore.



Lots of sad, sad "edge" people, unfortunately.

see, thats the part you dont want to understand. sxe it is a part of hardcore and if you take hardcore away, its just being drug free. and if you dont like hardcore, and are not in the hardcore scene you are not straight edge. you are just twisting the meaning of straight edge at your own will so it can fit you, with no back up information or a reliable foundation.
if you want to start a new term for being drug free in another scene its okay, but dont call it straight edge. be original.
i havent met anybody who says that where i've lived or here on the message board, except for a couple of kids that werent even straight edge. anyway seing that you dont really know what straight edge is (and apparently dont want to learn) you are just probably talking out of your ass or talking about kids that are not really straight edge...

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

see, thats the part you dont want to understand. sxe it is a part of hardcore and if you take hardcore away, its just being drug free.

It's not "just being drug free," as you seem to put it, if you ARE out there supporting bands, if you ARE out there in the mosh pit, if you ARE out there meeting people, if you ARE out there being apart of the music.

Math and Grindcore is what I'm about suckas, hardcore and it's generic chugga chugga breakdowns are weak.

Listen to TOWER OF ROME.

[straightXed]

I'm sorry sir, what exactly is your definition of hardcore, because I'm under the impression hardcore music are bands like "Terror."

Perhaps you should spend more time reading the threads here before quickly reacting. I personally don't consider terror a hardcore band.

And you know what, I don't get don't with that pussy metal. Terror is weak. And Hatebreed. Generic metal bands with chugga chugga breakdowns for tough guys in tattoos to dance to.

thats nice.

Let me ask you this:

As long as there is an underground scene "with a mosh pit," and you support it, are you not straight edge by definition ((of your opinion because there doesn't seem to be any literature of a sXe bible lying around)(of course in conjunction to that, this person would be remaining free of life-draining and impairing substances))?

ummm, no and underground scene can be anything, straightedge is relative to the hardcore scene.

Let me put this in terms you will understand, you've heard of Limp Bizkit "hardcore?"

i've heard of them but they aren't a hardcore band.

The "It's my way or the highway," type of mentality is what makes you fascist.

Not at all, its the way it is, you can call a cat a dog all day long and consider me a fascist for calling it a cat still but it doesn't make it so. You still are failing to point to any reasonable conclusion of it being fascist.

Once again, "Beliefs must evolve or face extinction."

It has evolved but it doesn't evolve on your say so or on your terms.

This, I agree with you totally, except for this movement hasn't remain strictly to hardcore, it's also very apparent in the underground indie music scene as well.

Show evidence of this, lyrics pertaining to straightedge, a history of straightedge within that scene.

You've made a claim, and I was just asking you to back that up with evidence.

That is evidence, how can you rely on it as anyone can go and change what is written there. And people often edit that page. The claim stands that it is an unreliable source.

Is there anything on the Wikipedia page in reference to "sXe" that you disagree to be fact, and if so, how is it not fact?

There have been things on that page that aren't factual but i am not about to go through the page as it really isn't relative. The point is you used it thinking it was a strong encyclopeadic reference point but it isn't.

Thanks for accepting my apology, man. Need to respect each other.

Well you wouldn't need to appologise if you thought things through more.

No, sir, I didn't say anyone abstaining from drugs is "sXe." I said anyone drug-free and supporting underground music is participating in "sXe" practices and beliefs.

Which is not true, it pertains to hardcore not any underground music. Remember underground covers hip hop, electro, jazz, techno etc. - the music relevent to straightedge is hardcore and the only resoning you seem to be able to give that ut should be otherwise is to suit you.

You are asking someone to label themselves differently than "sXe" because of a genre of music, which is totally ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? Its easy to say it is ridiculous but why? sxe is drug free + hardcore, if you take away the hardcore you no longer have straightedge, you simply have drug free + another musical genre (assuming that genre promotes and reflects a drug free message.) What is ridiculous is calling yourself straightedge when you have no links to hardcore and thus no links to the history or current state of straightedge. Earlier you said it was all about the music now you are acting as if it has no bearing at all. If a bunch of ravers are taking drugs and promoting an anarchic lifestyle you don't call them punks, the music is really quite definitive.

There is no need to make a new term up of for each time someone decides to practice "sXe" but doesn't like hardcore. It's ridiculous and it separates people only by a label a few letters and symbols. If you think "straight edge" is such a radical and cool term and you want it only to apply to your genre of music, that's fine, but the reality of it is that it doesn't. Indie kids have already adapted "sXe" and I have too.

How unoriginal of you but you have yet to provide sufficiant evidence of a sxe movement within indie music. Point is they are simply co opting a term from hardcore and actually not supporting tha hardcore values that go along with that as well as being ignorant to the history of what they are claiming to be. I would say indie + drug free would be different enough in attitude and execution to be called something different.

And for the record, sir, "Straight edge" doesn't even sound that cool, it sounds conservative and corny.

Then it begs the question why don't you think up something that you think would be cooler, however lots of people do adopt 'x's' because they look cool instead of because of what they resemble and mean.

That is the fascist mentality I'm talking about.

Thats fascist how? You throw that term around in a rather insulting manner with no basis and you should really learn to use it when it is relevent instead of calling everything you disagree with fascist, its really dull and child like.

Who are you to decide if a "sXe" lifestyle has a more "profound" meaning for "hardcore kids" than it doesn't "indie kids?"

Well seeing as you have yet toeven display any evidence of straightedge in indie, and looking at just how straightedge has come around i'd say its completely evident that the profound meaning is found within hardcore. I mean straightedge is synonamous with hardcore whilst indies is synonamous with looking at your shoes.

The meaning can be just as strong and profound for anyone regaurdless of "hardcore."

Except the meaning for all those others willl be negating the history and the struggle of the whole movement so not really as profound at all. JUst bandwaggon jumpers.

Say, perchance, that "sXe" did evolve from rap music, and hardcore kids starting adapting "sXe" would it be any less "profound" now that the hardcore kids have choosen "sXe?"

if it was a hip hop thing and its history was all based in hip hop then hardcore kids should look todoing there own original thing instead of just jumping on what hip hop kids do, like i said earlier this doesn't mean being influenced by one genre is a bad thing but recognise the differences and distinguish between them or end up with terms that don't accurately define anything.

I have last night, a less fascist way of life, and until then I'm going to use the term "sXe" because that is the term people are familar with.

So you need people to be familiar with it because then the term is descriptive. Problem comes from when you omitt hardcore from your description, now you will come across people and they will rightly assume that you are involved in hardcore due to the label you use todescribe you.

Since when was opinion definition?

says the kid relying on wikipedia! Besides you aren't arguing with my opinion you are arguing with the history of straightedge.

Piss to that.

ooo, solid point, well raised!

Hahahaha. That is generic and cheesy as hell, and uncreative. Singing about staying free off drugs barely represents creative emotion as the best artwork is made through pain. The bands I listen to have lyrics with actually meaning, even if it's political or just about plain social inadequacies.

Ok so you don't like the music associated with straightedge. the music that made straightedge what it is yet you still want to be called straightedge and associate with that. That is moronic. If you think this scene that created straightedge has no meaning then really why are you associating with that?

"Tighten the tie, lengthen the leg, suck on the shit, scramble the egg. Shed that old skin for some feathers. As noses bleed, trumpets are trumpeting, noses are bleeding. Triumphant cattle mutilations. That damn Saint Nick with chocolate-flavored razor blades."

ummm, yeah.

Real art is open to interpretation, however, an anti-drug commercial is not...

Your point is?

Furthermore, this has been done for decades, it's not just a straight edge quality...

Straightedge has been around for decades but if you took the time to read we are talking about the hardcore scene in particular and they way things are done there.

Perhaps...

no perhaps about it.

Again, you fail to realize "sXe" isn't a multi million dollar corporation or even a charity organization you can support.

Ummm people have been supporting it for years and thats the only reason you have even heardof it today, you seriously think without the support of everyone involved it would still be around?

"sXe" is a personal belief system that hopefully supports itself...

Its great how people are quick to cheapen the whole thing and ignore what actually happened in order to see straightedge exist today. It is a sub culture that one becomes an active part of not something people just use to define themselves however they see fit.

How about a music enthusiast? Is that term relevant enough to describe me?

Doesn't really set you apart from other music enthusiasts in order to depict the drug free aspect.

Yes, it was a joke.

right.

Only naturally...

So you aren't supporting straightedge.

No, I'll use the term whether or not "sXe" music stays around. And I didn't know it was such hard work to be a fan of music.

its really not hard work for the rest of us but then we don't call our selves something we aren't.

Are you saying I need to listen to records whose lyrics support being "Drug free" to be "sXe?"

I'm saying you need to listen
straightedge hardcore records in order to be actively a part of straightedge and what it really is.

I think I get more support to continue my "sXe" lifestyle from lyrics that sing about using drugs, because I have been through a tough time in my life because of my drug use, and lyrics that sing or even promote drug use is an ugly reminder of my past, and I feel more connection to that music and to my current beliefs.

Thats great but its not supporting straightedge.

Hahaha. You would like me to associate myself with you, wouldn't you?

If you were actually straightedge i wouldn't mind but you aren't.

I'm not associating my self with you!

Well then you shouldn't associate yourself with straightedge then.

I'm associating myself with the plenty of "sXe" people in my community who stray from hardcore music and coin the term "straight edge."

They aren't straightedge kid.

What!?! Pick yourself up the self-titled, or "Toxicity."

No thanks idon't like mainstream stuff!

Maybe so, but it could also be that you are completely unclear in what I type.

Nope, its you.

But not limited to.

Yes, limited to.

Is it safe for me to ASSume you're 13 years old?

Not really, it would be safer for you to actually look at my profile and not actually assume my age when you don't need to.

Grand Rapids underground self proclaimed "sXe" consensus is "Be drug free, and go to shows."

they probably mean straightedge and hardcore shows.

And if I'm going to shows, and getting in the mosh pit, (which more than half in attendance do not, Mainly the emo haircuts and studded belts stand there with their arms crossed, tapping their foot) how is that not "active participation?

Being there is active participation, thats showing support by showing up. You aren't smart are you.

Are we assuming, again...?

No, its based on your commentry.

Okay sir, I'm back again because I enjoy debating but not insulting. I hope we both recognize and harness this approach to conversing, I don't want this turn into a french kiss of shear tongues.

Well then stop being a silly and calling people fascist then without actually showing any fascist element.

I will come back, because I want the support, I just don't understand how you are supportive when you claim I'm not "sXe" because of this and that.

You are back because i enticed you back. I am supportive of straightedge and believe it or not we don't actually want the term to just be a catch all term instead of relating to what it actually is.

And I have also made claims of people using "sXe" as a trend, so I realize I'm guilty as well, and I'll apologize once again, because "sXe" isn't a sect or a denomination, it's a personal lifestyle and I'll respect and assume everyone here at these forums is doing their part in being "as edge as possible."

Everyone here supprts hardcore straightedge, thats the reason for these forums being here.

God damn, typing this book gets tiring fast and hurts my eyeballs. We need to reach some closure on this issue soon or I'm going to melt.

what kind of closure are you expecting, research the forums because i seriously think you are barking up the wrong tree.

[straightXed]

It's not "just being drug free," as you seem to put it, if you ARE out there supporting bands, if you ARE out there in the mosh pit, if you ARE out there meeting people, if you ARE out there being apart of the music.

Math and Grindcore is what I'm about suckas, hardcore and it's generic chugga chugga breakdowns are weak.

Listen to TOWER OF ROME.

See you don't even know what hardcore is! If you aren't supporting straightedge hardcore you aren't supporting straightedge.Being in a mosh pit doesn't matter but you didn't even know what sing alongs, pile ons and spin kicks were about. sure you are a part of some music but its not the music relative to straightedge.

[rodrigo]

It's not "just being drug free," as you seem to put it, if you ARE out there supporting bands, if you ARE out there in the mosh pit, if you ARE out there meeting people, if you ARE out there being apart of the music.

Math and Grindcore is what I'm about suckas, hardcore and it's generic chugga chugga breakdowns are weak.

Listen to TOWER OF ROME.

yeah but no hardcore. so no sxe.

and whats all this about breakdowns?
you also have a wrong idea of hardcore music.
and dont call me a"sucka" and talk to me about what is weak or not.

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Open your minds, people.

[rodrigo]

Open your minds, people.

by you refusing to see others people vision, and actually most people's and socio-historic vision, are being close minded...

[BornAgainVirginDrugs]

Perhaps you should spend more time reading the threads here before quickly reacting. I personally don't consider terror a hardcore band.

I don't care what you personally think.

Straight Edge just isn't about you.

Terror identifies itself as hardcore, so obviously, they are.

This conversation will go nowhere if we don't agree first on what is hardcore.