music and edge

[straightXed]

If Straight Edge is comprised of defining elements this implies there's a definition for Straight Edge, right? If there's a definition someone is responsible for its creation. First, who defined what Straight Edge is and/or is not? Second, what is the Straight Edge according to the definition?

Why does it have to be one person? It wasn't one person it was and is a bunch of people and it is continually defined through their actions and their words.

Do you speak for yourself or is this the definition for Straight Edge?
And what is "bullshit" anyway? In previous posts you talked about accuracy of descriptions, vagueness and that people need to specify what they type. Don't you think that telling someone that Straight Edge as a movement aims to "be set aside from the bullshit" isn't too vague for understanding? What did you mean to say?

How is it not definitive of straightedge?

I don't think its vague in the context of the discussion, but if you are looking for examples then look at the way other genres focus on major sales and popularity and don't focus on equality for everyone involved. Hell just listen to new direction, that refers to the same kind of bullshit i refer to.

Are you seriously talking for all of the straight edge people from all over the world? I mean, how can you know exactly what other people think unless you made some sort of poll and fixed the results on paper with accompanying endorsement of those interviewed? The consensus you talk about is pretty amorphous and that's the great problem, in my opinion. What is this consensus? Can you reproduce it verbatim and make me or anyone else in here sure that all of the straight edge people support these ideas? Can you?

Ok would you agree that straightedge music is representative of when people within the straightedge movement think? I mean in terms of straightedge not in terms of sharing the same thoughts on the economy. Theres a pretty definitive line of thought that is quite apparent throughout the scene, throughout the world. Theres a lot of stuff which changes from place to place but throughtout the hardcore scene worldwide there is some pretty definitive ideas of straightedge, this is continually represented and supported largely without contest throughout the hardcore scene. Now when people don't agree with something they tend not to support it, further more they will contest it, so the lack of this gives a good impression that this is supported by straightedge people. Now i have no desire to change your opinion, i really don't. If you think that there is no evidence that people worldwide have a common line of thought to a degree when it comes to straight edge, then please, believe that. I don't have time to waste to convince a mind that is set so you either accept my point based on looking at what straightedge kids worldwide support or you don't. There is no poll its just a case of looking at what is actively happening in straightedge worldwide, it is expressed through action let that be your verbatim if you so need. If you disagree and choose that there is no common line of thought then thats your opinion, hope it works for you.

Just hardcore or straight edge hardcore? Or both possible?

Well i thought the math was pretty simple but once more for your good self:

If you add drug free ideals and beliefs to hardcore then you get straightedge hardcore.

If you are asking, for some unfathomable reason, if a drug free kid who listens to hardcore could be considered straightedge then before i answer i would have to ask why would they not listen to hardcore discussing straightedge? Why would they not support that? If they don't wish to support that then why would they want/need to be refered to as straightedge? I mean it is fair to say that part of being straightedge is actually supporting straightedge right? Its less of an idle definition that people just fall into by default, its an active participation thing, you choose to be straightedge and support what that means, you get behind it. You don't just attempt to tick boxes to fit the bill, your a part of it because its what you believe, you support it because its what you think is right. I can't see a reason then, for not wanting to be apart of straightedge hardcore.

[Slober]

Fuck any one who is drug free just so that they can call them selves straight edge! I mean WTF? If you are not edge, then you are not, then you are drug free. Don't fucking take the stupid image of straight edge on you and turn the meaning of the word around. Straight Edge is more than just being drug free, it's the music, the shows, the scene. Why is it so hard to understand? Why does everyone wanna call them selves straight edge??? Is it so hard to do those things with out posing for some word?

[XbriX]

I would consider myself a straight egde person. I am involved in the music scene, not as much as i used to but i am. I first learned about straight edge through this scene, and i've always been drug free my whole life but never put value to it or put total commitment towards it. I learned a lot from this scene but got to find that it was very judgemental and often militant. Straight edge is definitly tightly involved into the hardcore music scene and has evolved from it but i believe when it comes down to it, its the indiviual's believes that make them straight egde. For me, i'm more on the spiritiual aspects of straight edge more that anything. I want to be in my furthest state mentally possible and be able to have a clear and open mind at all times. Because of my mental power and dedication towards my current lifestyle, i've maintained a very highly spiritiual state in which when i meditate i can leave my body. In my dreams i see the future, i see the past and i am blessed with this gift. I value my beliefs because they have brought me to this place. I see people in my life surrounded by drugs and are lost in no self control. They would be so powerful and give themselves a cleaner life without drugs. I see both sides. I am able to accept others choices and not judge them on their life's choices. Being straight edge i feel you need to accept all different types of lifestyle choices from others into your life. Straight edge is hard for people in my life to accept, it isn't easy.
This is true that straight edge comes and is involved deeply within the hardcore scene but also once a person takes this commitment t becomes their own. How they choose to see it, how they choose how it can help your life, where they can make positive chances. Its easy to bark at people and say what they are and what they are not. But you grab the torch and run with it, straight edge is deeply personal and may never be truly defined. I believe it has a different meaning to everyone. It effects all of us so strongly, but on different levels. All we can to do is embrace eachother and celebrate the wonderful choices we have made.

[straightXed]

I would consider myself a straight egde person. I am involved in the music scene, not as much as i used to but i am. I first learned about straight edge through this scene, and i've always been drug free my whole life but never put value to it or put total commitment towards it. I learned a lot from this scene but got to find that it was very judgemental and often militant. Straight edge is definitly tightly involved into the hardcore music scene and has evolved from it but i believe when it comes down to it, its the indiviual's believes that make them straight egde. For me, i'm more on the spiritiual aspects of straight edge more that anything. I want to be in my furthest state mentally possible and be able to have a clear and open mind at all times. Because of my mental power and dedication towards my current lifestyle, i've maintained a very highly spiritiual state in which when i meditate i can leave my body. In my dreams i see the future, i see the past and i am blessed with this gift. I value my beliefs because they have brought me to this place. I see people in my life surrounded by drugs and are lost in no self control. They would be so powerful and give themselves a cleaner life without drugs. I see both sides. I am able to accept others choices and not judge them on their life's choices. Being straight edge i feel you need to accept all different types of lifestyle choices from others into your life. Straight edge is hard for people in my life to accept, it isn't easy.
This is true that straight edge comes and is involved deeply within the hardcore scene but also once a person takes this commitment t becomes their own. How they choose to see it, how they choose how it can help your life, where they can make positive chances. Its easy to bark at people and say what they are and what they are not. But you grab the torch and run with it, straight edge is deeply personal and may never be truly defined. I believe it has a different meaning to everyone. It effects all of us so strongly, but on different levels. All we can to do is embrace eachother and celebrate the wonderful choices we have made.

If it cannot be defined and is allowed to mean something different to everyone then it really has no meaning at all. Its not about being militant or judgemental its simply just that if you use a term to define all kinds of other things, motions or perspectives then the term gets watered down and corupted from what it is actually intended to define.

If you feel more spiritual as a result of abstinance and being involved in hardcore then great but it doesn't mean that straight edge is at all spiritual. Its fair to say straightedge doesn't have spiritual aspects and that any spiritual aspects you find in it are personal conclusions that aren't definitive of straightedge. Its a case of you evolving beyond straightedge not straightedge evolving. This isn't to say that straightedge isn't evolving, it is constantly but within its definition, and sure it spurs evoloution in other things. However if everyone who was straightedge used the term straightedge to define multitudes of things that may have been a knock on effect of the choice of becoming straightedge...well then you'd just end up with a reletively redundent term. Things have definitions for a very good reason and wanting to have an accurate definition is not about telling people what they are or aren't at all its just about having straightedge actually be a term that means something and not a term that means everything and nothing.

Its great that you can leave your body, see the future in your dreams and all that but if you said to me that you were straightedge then that term doesn't cover those things. I mean people can be influnced by straightedge to do so many different things, that simply doesn't make any of those things qualify to be described by the term straightedge, you can't just add things to its definition at will. And again you can't take things away from its definition at will either, hardcore is just as important to the definition of straightedge as abstinance from drugs, if someone chose to omit the abstinance of drugs it would clearly not be straightedge anymore and its the same with hardcore.

I'm happy to accept all kinds of different lifestyles but i really don't feel that one needs to compromise definitions to accept peoples choices.

[XbriX]

Then you don't believe aspects of straightedge lead to spirituality? Straightedge, to me and many others, allows stepping stones to spirituality and i cannot ingore the connect and i cannot see how it is not closley related. I believe it is spiritual for everyone. At a show it unites, the energy is strong, as if we are all one, you can't deny that straightedge people have a spiritual connection with eachother. It may not be techinally within the 'straightedge definition' but it is a fact to me that it is a huge part of straightedge. Many people choose to be straightedge to further their spirituality, people i know. This is bigger than just my beliefs. This is more than the surface, these are underlying layers, the core of human beings and their self control. A definition can be taken many ways, it can be seen differentally by others. It doesn't mean they don't understand, it doesn't mean they aren't straightedge. What I've studied and read about straightedge and my experience is that for many it is believed a clear head would help them focus on their spirituality. Straightedge ideas open these doors. You can't deny it.

"Attitudes towards spirituality

Straight edge is not a religion; it is a philosophy. Some straight edgers feel that having a clear mind is a better way to approach life and/or spirituality. Many are atheist, or agnostic, often believing in personal responsibility and rejecting the idea of a deity or any divine moral law. However, there are those who consider Christianity a very important addition to their sXe life. In many circles, the lifestyle has associations with spirituality—there were at one time significant Hare Krishna straight edge movements. Christians involved in the punk/hardcore subculture sometimes consider themselves straight edge; indeed, the rejection of illicit substances, alcohol consumption (particularly underage) and premarital sex is commonly encouraged by many mainstream churches and their youth groups. It should not be assumed, however, that the self-identification as straight edge is a casual replacement of one label with another. Prominent self-identified Christian straight edgers include the ex-bassist of Throwdown, at least one member of Comeback Kid, and at least one member of Stretch Arm Strong. There has also been criticism of Christians being involved within the straight edge community—reflected in songs such as "This Ain't No Cross On My Hand" by Limp Wrist, "Real Edgemen Hate Jesus" by XfilesX, and "Straight Edge Punks Not Christian Fucks" by Crucial Attack. "

You can have one without the other, you can be straightegde and not spiritual and be spiritual and not straightedge but its hard for me to understand how someone can believe there is no connection. That straightedge has nothing to do with spirituality? To me it has brought me closer to it, it helped me further myself. If i never discovered this lifestyle, things would be different

[stepinsideissue]

Then you don't believe aspects of straightedge lead to spirituality? Straightedge, to me and many others, allows stepping stones to spirituality and i cannot ingore the connect and i cannot see how it is not closley related. I believe it is spiritual for everyone. At a show it unites, the energy is strong, as if we are all one, you can't deny that straightedge people have a spiritual connection with eachother. It may not be techinally within the 'straightedge definition' but it is a fact to me that it is a huge part of straightedge. Many people choose to be straightedge to further their spirituality, people i know. This is bigger than just my beliefs. This is more than the surface, these are underlying layers, the core of human beings and their self control. A definition can be taken many ways, it can be seen differentally by others. It doesn't mean they don't understand, it doesn't mean they aren't straightedge. What I've studied and read about straightedge and my experience is that for many it is believed a clear head would help them focus on their spirituality. Straightedge ideas open these doors. You can't deny it.

"Attitudes towards spirituality

Straight edge is not a religion; it is a philosophy. Some straight edgers feel that having a clear mind is a better way to approach life and/or spirituality. Many are atheist, or agnostic, often believing in personal responsibility and rejecting the idea of a deity or any divine moral law. However, there are those who consider Christianity a very important addition to their sXe life. In many circles, the lifestyle has associations with spirituality—there were at one time significant Hare Krishna straight edge movements. Christians involved in the punk/hardcore subculture sometimes consider themselves straight edge; indeed, the rejection of illicit substances, alcohol consumption (particularly underage) and premarital sex is commonly encouraged by many mainstream churches and their youth groups. It should not be assumed, however, that the self-identification as straight edge is a casual replacement of one label with another. Prominent self-identified Christian straight edgers include the ex-bassist of Throwdown, at least one member of Comeback Kid, and at least one member of Stretch Arm Strong. There has also been criticism of Christians being involved within the straight edge community—reflected in songs such as "This Ain't No Cross On My Hand" by Limp Wrist, "Real Edgemen Hate Jesus" by XfilesX, and "Straight Edge Punks Not Christian Fucks" by Crucial Attack. "

You can have one without the other, you can be straightegde and not spiritual and be spiritual and not straightedge but its hard for me to understand how someone can believe there is no connection. That straightedge has nothing to do with spirituality? To me it has brought me closer to it, it helped me further myself. If i never discovered this lifestyle, things would be different

I'm with Ed on this one as will alot of people. All the extras are fine and good. But the simple fact of the matter is that all those things you listed have no more conecction to sXe than veg/vegan does. They may run side by side but they are very separate things. sXe is very simple. Don't drink, dont do drugs and listen to hardcore. Nothing more nothing less. The very meaning of sXe that people have sung, and lived for more than 20 years is being ruined by too many people trying to add thier own ideas and inturptitations to it. It is in fact a scene ruining the real scene.

[straightXed]

Then you don't believe aspects of straightedge lead to spirituality?

This is not what i said at all, it can lead anywhere but where it leads, be it spiritual or physical, doesn't become an element of straightedge.

Straightedge, to me and many others, allows stepping stones to spirituality and i cannot ingore the connect and i cannot see how it is not closley related.

Thats fine and for many people straightedge may lead them to make a multitude of different choices. It could get you into skateboarding or it could get you into physical fitness but none of those things come under the umbrella of the term straightedge. I'm not asking you to ignore a connection i'm actually asking you to clearly see a definition. Of course it can plug you in to all kinds of other choices, its the same for any choice you make.

I believe it is spiritual for everyone. At a show it unites, the energy is strong, as if we are all one, you can't deny that straightedge people have a spiritual connection with eachother.

I don't believe it to be spiritual and what you described right there didn't conjur up spiritual for me at all. I deny the spiritual connection you speak of quite bluntly and to me it is more of a social connection - tribal or pack like but not spiritual. Of course you are welcome to believe that it is a spiritual for everyone but when many disagree then it can hardly stand up saying it is a spiritual thing. I mean for you it may be, it might help you see the future and all that but for others it takes them in different directions. The solid remaining fact are that straightedge sums up nothing more than hardcore kids abstaining from drugs, where ever it takes you after that is personal and that personal path isn't summed up by the term straightedge. If it was straightedge would mean everything and nothing and thats pretty useless hence why i am taking the time to reply to you here.

It may not be techinally within the 'straightedge definition' but it is a fact to me that it is a huge part of straightedge.

If its a fact for you but not me then its not a huge part of being straightedge its a huge part what you are into. You want to encompass your beliefs of spirituality into straightedge but it doesn't fit, for you it might but the term has to fit everyone not just yourself. Straightedge is a great platform to start from and can lead many people to other things but like i say those other things are just that - other things.

Many people choose to be straightedge to further their spirituality, people i know. This is bigger than just my beliefs.

A pearsons reasons for going straightedge are personal and not really a gauge on what straightedge defines, some people may do it for fitness and some may do it to score with the oppisite sex but these things vary for everyone and aren't going to describe what straightedge is. However for the largest part people choose to mbecome straightedge because they love hardcore and things drugs suck.

This is more than the surface, these are underlying layers, the core of human beings and their self control.

of course human behaviour is intricate and our reasons for doing things can be due to all kinds of input but this is all about the individual and straightedge is a term to define many people as a group, or sub culture and what it describes is several key factors that can be found in everyone of those people. With what you are doing it would need to change its defintion to describe every individual and with that it just stops having a definite definition.

A definition can be taken many ways, it can be seen differentally by others.

Ok so how many ways do you take the definition "kids that are active within the hardcore mosic scene and abstain from recreational drug use" I would like to know the many different ways you would take that definition, and i don't mean how would you add to it because that would just destroy the idea of a definition. The word fish has a defintion but is i personally decided that cat could also be summed up by the word fish it doesn't make it so, does it? Regardless of how i attempt to justify it a fish is a fish and a cat is a cat.

It doesn't mean they don't understand, it doesn't mean they aren't straightedge. What I've studied and read about straightedge and my experience is that for many it is believed a clear head would help them focus on their spirituality. Straightedge ideas open these doors. You can't deny it.

If it gives you a clear head and a clear head helps with spirituality then great, i'm glad but it doesn't make straightedge spiritual its just helped you in other aspects of your life like it can help in a million ways. Driving a car isn't martial arts but skills gained from driving can aid one in martial arts. We can draw upon so many things in life and use them in other aspects of life but it doesn't make those things entwined or interchangable.

"Attitudes towards spirituality

Straight edge is not a religion; it is a philosophy. Some straight edgers feel that having a clear mind is a better way to approach life and/or spirituality. Many are atheist, or agnostic, often believing in personal responsibility and rejecting the idea of a deity or any divine moral law. However, there are those who consider Christianity a very important addition to their sXe life. In many circles, the lifestyle has associations with spirituality—there were at one time significant Hare Krishna straight edge movements. Christians involved in the punk/hardcore subculture sometimes consider themselves straight edge; indeed, the rejection of illicit substances, alcohol consumption (particularly underage) and premarital sex is commonly encouraged by many mainstream churches and their youth groups. It should not be assumed, however, that the self-identification as straight edge is a casual replacement of one label with another. Prominent self-identified Christian straight edgers include the ex-bassist of Throwdown, at least one member of Comeback Kid, and at least one member of Stretch Arm Strong. There has also been criticism of Christians being involved within the straight edge community—reflected in songs such as "This Ain't No Cross On My Hand" by Limp Wrist, "Real Edgemen Hate Jesus" by XfilesX, and "Straight Edge Punks Not Christian Fucks" by Crucial Attack. "

The place for that discussion is probably best to be raised in the religion forum as there is much discussion about christianity and straightedge. If you are interested in that discussion then post in that thread but i feel it veers of from the discussion in hand here.

You can have one without the other, you can be straightegde and not spiritual and be spiritual and not straightedge but its hard for me to understand how someone can believe there is no connection. That straightedge has nothing to do with spirituality? To me it has brought me closer to it, it helped me further myself. If i never discovered this lifestyle, things would be different

Indirect connection perhaps, i don't deny it can be benificial for a spiritual person and may even influence people to get spiritual. Thats all well and good but the connection is indirect and not definitive of straightedge, i don't see why its so hard to believe especially with the text you quoted in the previous paragraph. I could say straightedge brought me closer to all the things in my life right now and i would be telling the truth kind of, the point is straightedge isn't the only choice you made, millions of choices lead you to where you are now and where you are spiritually and the focus shouldn't be on the choice to become straightedge as much. Its a great choice don't get me wrong but in itself its not a spiritual choice no matter where it has taken you. Straightedge doesnt describe any spiritual aspect and that is why it is fair to say straightedge isn't really anything to do with spirituality. For you being clear minded helps you be more spiritual and you get a great personal release at hardcore shows that also helps you so its more accurate to say that straightedge fits in with your spiritual ideal, it poses no conflict to your spiritual self. Its like it is a seperate thing but on a personal level it can help with your spiritual ideals but when you hold straightedge up on its own its not a stand alone spiritual thing its just how you have personally utilised it. I'm glad its helped you in other ways, i'm sure we all have personal experiences of how straightedge has helped us as well as some stories of how it hasn't always helped but when you remove yourself or any personal slant from the equation straightedge itself remains non spiritual, its your personality and and personal choices that enable you to place your straightedge belief alongside your spiritual connection. You are spiritual, not straightedge.

[XbriX]

You have no right to tell what i am and what i am not. This is not about you and what you believe or what you think is right. It's a narrow minded view i think becasue straightedge is so deep, its not just no drugs, no drinking and hardcore. its so much more, it goes way deeper. Every hardcore show i've been to, i've felt stron spiritiual energy, i can't believe you don't feel it. For you to say i am not straight edge is insulting and a blind statement. Can't you see my reasons for choosing this lifestyle go so much more deeper that what others are doing. Everyone has a reason to choose this lifestyle, it has to come from the human core and in your spiritual mind, thats what i believe and you can't tell me what i believe is wrong. I know the definition, but to me straightedge is directly linked to spiritually. For that to wrong, I just don't understand.

[straightXed]

You have no right to tell what i am and what i am not. This is not about you and what you believe or what you think is right.

I'm not actually telling you what you aren't i'm talking about how straightedge doesn't work as a label for everything you are.

It's a narrow minded view i think becasue straightedge is so deep, its not just no drugs, no drinking and hardcore. its so much more, it goes way deeper. Every hardcore show i've been to, i've felt stron spiritiual energy, i can't believe you don't feel it.

I feel something different to you, i could be saying right here that you have no right to tell me straightedge is more and that you shouldn't make me feel that i am missing an element of straightedge, you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of. The point is i'm not saying that, you are spiritual and thats a personal thing for you and i'm telling you its not found in all straightedge people, you should try to believe that. And the way definitions and terms like this work, well they don't just chop and change meanings from individual to individual. The term straightedge doesn't cover being spiritual even if you feel a spiritual connection at hardcore shows or find a clear mind helps with being spiritual. You are trying to make the term apply to more than it does, it seems you failed to even entertain the points i raised and just chose to ignore them. Right now i feel like i am repeating myself and that you aren't really looking to discuss the issues rather than say the same thing over and over, it would be nice if you actually took the time to enter into a discussion.

For you to say i am not straight edge is insulting and a blind statement.

Did you read my post? because i never said you weren't straightedge, perhaps it is you who is blind. I am saying you are straightedge but your spiritual connection is something extra to that, its something not found in every straightedge person just as not every straightedge person skateboards or follows veganism.

Can't you see my reasons for choosing this lifestyle go so much more deeper that what others are doing.

To be honest your reasons for choosing it are irrelevent, like i say people choose it for many different reasons, sometimes it sticks and sometimes it doesn't. The reason you decide to become straightedge doesn't define what straightedge actually is.

Everyone has a reason to choose this lifestyle, it has to come from the human core and in your spiritual mind, thats what i believe and you can't tell me what i believe is wrong.

But its ok for you to tell me that you have to choose straightedge with your spiritual mind? How is that not complete hipocracy? You are applying your personal beliefs to everyone, you are adding things to the definition based on what you believe. I didn't choose it with my spiritual mind and you seem to want to tell me that i have to, i am able to give you a definition that describes all straightedge people, you want to give a description that describes more than straightedge and doesn't fit everyone.

I know the definition, but to me straightedge is directly linked to spiritually. For that to wrong, I just don't understand.

If you know the definition you will know that you don't have to be spiritual to be straightedge. I have never said you can't be spiritual just that its something extra to straightedge and not something that is definitive of all straightedge people. A definition needs to apply accross the board - spirituality, veganism, skateboarding etc. are all things that straightedge may lead you too but they are not tennents of straightedge.

[xsecx]

I am not a spiritual person, does that mean I'm not straight edge?

[PROPER JERK]

You have no right to tell what i am and what i am not. This is not about you and what you believe or what you think is right. It's a narrow minded view i think becasue straightedge is so deep, its not just no drugs, no drinking and hardcore. its so much more, it goes way deeper.

Deep, Deeper, Deepest!

[hxcsxe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD_fh1F8zHs#qRprqsEd3MQ

come across this vid and she says the hardcore music has nothing to do with straight edge or sumin, worded abit odd to be honest

[xsecx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD_fh1F8zHs#qRprqsEd3MQ

come across this vid and she says the hardcore music has nothing to do with straight edge or sumin, worded abit odd to be honest

wow, she's a little clueless and it makes me wonder if she even understands where the term even came from.

[PROPER JERK]

wow, she's a little clueless and it makes me wonder if she even understands where the term even came from.

Wikipedia duh!

[SgtD]

Wikipedia duh!

says the "christian sxe" talk about clueless!