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Thread: What is hardline?

  1. #46
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    you're going off the point.... you asked why vegans are making a change and straightedge kids aren't... they are. They are just making the same change as people who aren't straightedge but don't do those things. So, that's not neccessarily sxe people making changes. How are straightedge people making a change, that normal people aren't...
    "Now there are two sides to this war"

  2. #47
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    also just by being sxe you aren't not adding to human suffering. what about if you still buy clothing from nike, gap, or other known sweatshops?
    "Now there are two sides to this war"

  3. #48
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    Originally posted by veganedge
    you're going off the point.... you asked why vegans are making a change and straightedge kids aren't... they are. They are just making the same change as people who aren't straightedge but don't do those things. So, that's not neccessarily sxe people making changes. How are straightedge people making a change, that normal people aren't...
    I'm not going off the point at all. you are trying to play one against the other like it's a contest.

    So following your logic, what are vegans doing that really poor people in underdeveloped countries aren't already doing? How do you measure change?

    Being vegan is a label. it's nothing more. it's a lack of consuming something.

  4. #49
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    Originally posted by veganedge
    you're going off the point.... you asked why vegans are making a change and straightedge kids aren't... they are. They are just making the same change as people who aren't straightedge but don't do those things. So, that's not neccessarily sxe people making changes. How are straightedge people making a change, that normal people aren't...
    so what about lactose intollerant people, they don't support the dairy industry but they aren't vegan, and people who cut out dairy and meat for health reasons. therefore vegans are just making changes that other people are also.
    Others walk the bow, I walk the string

  5. #50
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    Originally posted by veganedge
    also just by being sxe you aren't not adding to human suffering. what about if you still buy clothing from nike, gap, or other known sweatshops?
    life is suffering :)
    Others walk the bow, I walk the string

  6. #51
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    Originally posted by veganedge
    also just by being sxe you aren't not adding to human suffering. what about if you still buy clothing from nike, gap, or other known sweatshops?
    double negative homie.

    do you drive a car? ever buy film? travel by anything other than a bike?

  7. #52
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    So following your logic, what are vegans doing that really poor people in underdeveloped countries aren't already doing? How do you measure change?
    I'm making a change where I live...Really poor people usually live in balance with the earth (a sustainable life), don't really need to make a change for their species to survive like western countries do.....

    so what about lactose intollerant people, they don't support the dairy industry but they aren't vegan, and people who cut out dairy and meat for health reasons. therefore vegans are just making changes that other people are also.
    veganism is more than just your diet, just like sxe is more than just abstaining.....

    do you drive a car? ever buy film? travel by anything other than a bike?
    yes, I do drive a car when needed (in my current situation of having a 1 1/2 yr old daughter I can't due to weather...) no I don't buy film, I use digital.... I do the best I can and I strive to do better, that's all I can do. And that's all I ask everybody to do.
    "Now there are two sides to this war"

  8. #53
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    Originally posted by veganedge
    I'm making a change where I live...Really poor people usually live in balance with the earth (a sustainable life), don't really need to make a change for their species to survive like western countries do.....


    and you completely ignored the second half the question. how do you measure change? How are people in non western countries apart of a different species? How is survial the root issue? Survial of what?

    veganism is more than just your diet, just like sxe is more than just abstaining.....
    How is veganism more than just not consuming?

    yes, I do drive a car when needed (in my current situation of having a 1 1/2 yr old daughter I can't due to weather...) no I don't buy film, I use digital.... I do the best I can and I strive to do better, that's all I can do. And that's all I ask everybody to do.
    So then why are you going to make comparisons and statements that the only thing that matters is being vegan? That nothing else encourages or adds to change? How do you know that there is a greater impact from being vegan than another behavior? And if you do, why does it matter?

  9. #54
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    Originally posted by veganedge
    I guess being edge does something slowly, if you try to convince others that this is how they should live....

    By being vegan you no longer kill, rape, or imprison animals. You are directly living in peace with animals. Being vegan doesn't just mean a vegan diet... you stop buying products that are tested on animals, stop supporting circuses and other things with animal exploitation, you stop wearing dead animals as leather,fur,suede,nubuck......
    I'm jumping into this late but I have to point out that you're wrong on your initial argument. Veganism is only about ceasing the consuming and wearing of animal products. Vegans could theoretically still support zoos, circuses and other forms of animal slavery. There are people who are vegan for health reasons alone so they don't avoid the other aspects of animal slavery.

    Both straightedge and veganism create change as they both begin the process of shifting the marketplace. Straightedge cuts down the demand for alcohol and drugs, which in turn affects the amount of these products being a part of society. Veganism shifts that marketplace away from animal products, which affects the amount of animals enslaved and killed as well as the impact on the environment. Just because it seems like a higher percentage of vegans get involved in other aspects of changing society/the world, does not mean that veganism inherently does more than straightedge to change things.
    "Where the hell is my riot?"

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  10. #55
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    Originally posted by adr
    Sorry to butt in where I wasn't called, but if prenna hasn't told you the verse, it's Timothy 4 1-5.

    "1 Now that the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of the devils;
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their concience seared with a hot iron;
    3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be recieved with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
    4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
    5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

    Sorry if that's not the one you meant prenna, I had a look and that's what I found.
    I know this is really old (I'd forgot all about it) but yes that is the verse I was meaning.
    "Where the hell is my riot?"

    "my true compassion is for all living things and not just the ones who are cute so i do what i can.
    i wanna save lives and i've got a plan"

    http://www.veganfitness.net

  11. #56
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    and you completely ignored the second half the question. how do you measure change? How are people in non western countries apart of a different species? How is survial the root issue? Survial of what?
    I'm not really sure how I measure change, how do you measure change? They are not part of a different species, their species is our species.... But they live differently than we do, and it shows. I didn't say surviving was the root issue, it's just that we need to change to survive. We are destroying the earth and all life that is inhabiting it.

    How is veganism more than just not consuming?
    It's not (if your definition of consuming is based off of consumer, not consuming as in ingesting).

    So then why are you going to make comparisons and statements that the only thing that matters is being vegan? That nothing else encourages or adds to change? How do you know that there is a greater impact from being vegan than another behavior? And if you do, why does it matter?
    I'm not... veganism is not the ONLY thing that matters, it's just very important. I agree that everything adds to change it's just a matter of degree. I know there is a greater impact from being vegan than being sxe, I said nothing about any other behaviors. It matters because we should all being doing all we can.
    "Now there are two sides to this war"

  12. #57
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    I'm jumping into this late but I have to point out that you're wrong on your initial argument. Veganism is only about ceasing the consuming and wearing of animal products. Vegans could theoretically still support zoos, circuses and other forms of animal slavery. There are people who are vegan for health reasons alone so they don't avoid the other aspects of animal slavery.
    I'm sorry to say, but no veganism is not just about your diet. A vegan diet is, but not veganism... Being vegan (not just eating a vegan diet) means that animals are not here for our appetites, for us to wear, to experiment on, or exploit in entertainment....
    I use to believe as you that it was just a vegan diet, but I now believe that it is more. You're welcome to your opinion (not that you need my permission).
    "Now there are two sides to this war"

  13. #58
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    Originally posted by veganedge
    I'm sorry to say, but no veganism is not just about your diet. A vegan diet is, but not veganism... Being vegan (not just eating a vegan diet) means that animals are not here for our appetites, for us to wear, to experiment on, or exploit in entertainment....
    I use to believe as you that it was just a vegan diet, but I now believe that it is more. You're welcome to your opinion (not that you need my permission).
    Well as it is defined by the Vegan Society, who actually created the term, it is only a matter of consumption. It doesn't matter what the johnny-come-lately's would have people believe, veganism (and being vegan) is purely a matter of what you consume.
    "Where the hell is my riot?"

    "my true compassion is for all living things and not just the ones who are cute so i do what i can.
    i wanna save lives and i've got a plan"

    http://www.veganfitness.net

  14. #59
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    Originally posted by veganedge
    I'm not really sure how I measure change, how do you measure change? They are not part of a different species, their species is our species.... But they live differently than we do, and it shows. I didn't say surviving was the root issue, it's just that we need to change to survive. We are destroying the earth and all life that is inhabiting it.


    I don't. I'm not the one making a contest out of it. They live differently because they have to, not because they choose to. What shows is socio economic factors and not willing veganism.

    It's not (if your definition of consuming is based off of consumer, not consuming as in ingesting).
    you just said it was?

    I'm not... veganism is not the ONLY thing that matters, it's just very important. I agree that everything adds to change it's just a matter of degree. I know there is a greater impact from being vegan than being sxe, I said nothing about any other behaviors. It matters because we should all being doing all we can.
    How do you know that there is a greater impact from being vegan than being sxe? how can you even measure it? That's the entire point. You're making the assumption and therefore the comparison that one is a greater force of change than the other with no way of measurement.

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    From an interview with Sean Muttaqi, the creator of the hardline movement.

    Being a Muslim, do you think it necessary to claim to be straightedge, since religion already prohibits drinking and having promiscuous sex, do you see anything wrong with a Muslim claiming to be straightedge?

    One can be a Muslim and still be a part of various tariqas or "paths" as long as they don't conflict with the basic understanding that Allah is One. I mean, even though the message of Islam is universalism, if one is living in an occupied country, it would be in line with Islam's principles of Justice to be a part of a "nationalist" movement to throw the oppressors out. Likewise, one could be a part of a martial arts society, and similarly, "Straight Edge" is a path that one can be a part of while being a Muslim. Obviously there are a lot of similarities, and I can see the natural affiliation and desire for Muslim kids to be a part of it (especially in the West, where they are lacking Islamic movements to be a part of). However, I think it must be seen for what it is, and equally for what it isn't. Certainly, "Straight Edge" did not bring to this earth, the message of drug free living, and sexual morality. It is the message that every Prophet has brought, and it exists in the true form of every world religion. So people should not confuse the level of importance of "Straight Edge" in and of itself. Also, one should not elevate western notions of morality above their religious background. By this, I mean, the notion of abstinence and purity runs through every culture and religion. However, within many of these same spiritual paths, are also certain beliefs that may on the external level seem to conflict with the western notion of purity or morality. For instance, many Native American Indians, who are absolutely against drug use, do use peyote in their spiritual ceremonies. Some Muslim holy men smoke a pipe. What one shouldn't do, is make the mistake of thinking that the "Straight Edge" perception of reality and of right and wrong, is automatically superior to the ancient spiritual traditions perception of such things. This is not to say that everything which is "tradition" is automatically superior. But it is saying to beware replacing one's own vast cultural and spiritual understanding of things, with a more simplistic western notion, which is based upon the song of one man who didn't even hold true to his own words.

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