What is hardline?

[straightXed]

So now we're back to where life begins. Does it begin when the baby crawls out? or does it began earlier? So straightED I still think that the hearbeat argument holds up. So what! if the fetus is dependent on the mother for life. The baby is STILL dependent on the mother after it is born, with out the mother or someone else to take care of it the baby would die shortly after birth. So would you say that the baby is not really alive until it can fend for itself? Because that is just slightly absurd.

you are taking the word dependance out of context, the idea of a fetus being able to exist outside of the womb isn't one that stands up, it can't rely upon its own heart as its still forming. Of course you chose to misinterpret what i said to qualify a response but i never suggested it a baby isn't alive rather i suggested; a mass that has begun growing inside a woman that is displaying a beating quality but not relying on that beating to sustain its existance isn't alive simply because it beats.

So if Life starts with a heartbeat then life start 3 weeks after conception. So if a Vegan is a supporter of animal life and human life than then you can see how being vegan and supporting abortion do not go hand in hand.

Well only you are saying life begins with a heartbeat, thats still up for debate with others, why is the definition of life drawn there? why not earlier, why not later? What quality at that point encapsulates what life is, what makes it a steadfast rule? You seem to have chosen to omit the points i raised about the ALF etc and ignored the questions about how veganism means caring for human life? Are you saying animal rights activists aren't vegan? A vegan isn't by definition a supporter of human life and quite often they hold human kind in contempt for their behaviour towards animals, many place animals above human life. You have to realise the type of beliefs you are speaking of are based in veganism but they are in fact an evolved set of beliefs that may have started at veganism but has moved on to clutch other seperate beliefs and the collection of these beliefs is not described by simply using the word vegan. Its a stretch to simply say a vegan beliefs human life is sacred.

[straightXed]

nah im not JUST here to be an asshole, im also here to kill time. and yeah i would keep the ass holes around... keep things interesting

So you are saying you are here to be an asshole? Why? If someone came round your house to cause shit and be an asshole would you let them stay or would you boot them out? Things don't stay interesting for long when people are assholes, it generally gets tired and things suffer due to the ill behaviour, it also shows disrespect for the resources and why should a person put up with disrespect for the sole purpose that someone can deliberately be an asshole? It really doesn't make sense, respect is shown in order to allow someone to use the resources but when its not given back theres no reason to continue showing the disrespectful pearson any respect. I mean no ones saying you have to think like anyone else here and everyone is entitled to their own opinion but when discussing differences in opinions whats wrong with keeping it respectful? I know it can get heated but going out of your way to insult people not even in the heat of an argument, well that is just going to have a negative effect. Perhaps if you stick around you will see a better way to keep things interesting, i mean surely thats a better way to kill time?

[agmitt06]

Hardline is not militant straight edge

Well, then what exactly is militant straight edge?

[xsecx]

Well, then what exactly is militant straight edge?

not greatly organized kids who feel the need to deal with drugs and alcohol use in a violent way.

[xriteousxjamsx]

must be hard going to such an effort to make a bullshit free forum for people that try to get away from all of the same shit they go through in the surrounding drug scene, and have kids constantly dishing out cold disrespect. not opposing oppinions in a friendly and logical manner but just losing there wittle tempers and resorting to hard ass verbal attacks. much respect,

jack

[urgonnasellout]

Well only you are saying life begins with a heartbeat, thats still up for debate with others, why is the definition of life drawn there? why not earlier, why not later? What quality at that point encapsulates what life is, what makes it a steadfast rule?.

well personally i think life does start earlier, i just chose the heartbeat because it seemed like a logical starting point for my argument that people might be able to relate to

You seem to have chosen to omit the points i raised about the ALF etc and ignored the questions about how veganism means caring for human life? Are you saying animal rights activists aren't vegan? A vegan isn't by definition a supporter of human life and quite often they hold human kind in contempt for their behaviour towards animals, many place animals above human life. .

i realize that just because you're vegan doesn't mean that you support all living life it simply means you obstain from the use of animal products, and i believe ive already said that once in an earlier post...And i do realize that there are some crazy ass holes out there that hold animal kind above human kind . what im attacking here is the thought process these vegans have that leads them to think that they are a supporters of life, i.e. a vegan who is vegan because that person does not support the killing of innocent animals. If you put animal kind above human kind and your own self preservation you're crazy. So why would you support the killing of an innocent unborn child? Thats what doesnt make any sense to me.....

But we clearly wont come to a conclusion because the hole when life starts thing comes into play, because i guess a heart beat and brain activity doesnt qualify life, and since people dont think that it does qualify thats makes it ok for people to murder their babies because its not convenient for them..... Hands down abortion is fucked up, and how anyone rationalizes it is beyond me, because that "thing" inside her stomach is living, it has a beating heart, it moves, it had brain activity...... and somehow people are ok with throwing it in the trash.

[straightXed]

well personally i think life does start earlier, i just chose the heartbeat because it seemed like a logical starting point for my argument that people might be able to relate to

Well what you personally think isn't really going to cut it unfortunately, i mean theres a lot of medical studies and laws in place to suggest you are wrong. I mean i can have a personal opinion on the word banana thinking it better suits an apple but its not really grounds for change is it.

i realize that just because you're vegan doesn't mean that you support all living life it simply means you obstain from the use of animal products, and i believe ive already said that once in an earlier post...And i do realize that there are some crazy ass holes out there that hold animal kind above human kind .

So

"If you're a vegan you dont support taking the life of any being. right?"

versus

"i realize that just because you're vegan doesn't mean that you support all living life".

conclusion...

what im attacking here is the thought process these vegans have that leads them to think that they are a supporters of life, i.e. a vegan who is vegan because that person does not support the killing of innocent animals.

This is the point you need to remain absoloutely clear that veganism refers only to being supporters of animal life. (unless its a health choice in which case the compassion for animal life may not even come into play)

If you put animal kind above human kind and your own self preservation you're crazy. So why would you support the killing of an innocent unborn child? Thats what doesnt make any sense to me.....

Ok, so now vegans that do this are crazy, thats fine, i think its daft too but the belief is often one of animals innocence versus mankinds behaviour that voids them from innocence. But unfortunately you asked for the innocence issue to be ommited right off the bat. But seeing as you are using it to describe the child well perhaps they a) feel to many humans exist and support culling of human life b) realise the effect an unwanted child would have on the mother and the child c) don't believe the fetus to be either a child or innocent or life and therefore doesn't qualify as killing an innocent child.

But we clearly wont come to a conclusion because the hole when life starts thing comes into play, because i guess a heart beat and brain activity doesnt qualify life, and since people dont think that it does qualify thats makes it ok for people to murder their babies because its not convenient for them.....

They aren't murdering and its not babies, if it was murder they would be tried for murder if they were babies there would be no distinct definition of the fetus that goes on to become a baby. You seem to be putting forward a slant that abortions are quick easy convenience choices rather than a choice no one really ever wants to have to make.

Hands down abortion is fucked up, and how anyone rationalizes it is beyond me, because that "thing" inside her stomach is living, it has a beating heart, it moves, it had brain activity...... and somehow people are ok with throwing it in the trash.

then you really should be vegan. The main point here is it is her stomach or womb and you are trying to suggest what should and shouldn't happen in there.

[Slober]

I guess being edge does something slowly, if you try to convince others that this is how they should live....

By being vegan you no longer kill, rape, or imprison animals. You are directly living in peace with animals. Being vegan doesn't just mean a vegan diet... you stop buying products that are tested on animals, stop supporting circuses and other things with animal exploitation, you stop wearing dead animals as leather,fur,suede,nubuck......

Do you think a vegetarism also does nothing? It is anyway pretty big amount of money spent on meat per one people's life on average daily basis.

[alex147]

Working in a supermarket you see firsthand the amount people spend on meat, upwards of $100AUD per large shopping trolley. I hate the way vegans seem to resent vegetarians. In my view both have a positive effect on the world and both are doing their part to help combat animal curelty and causes like that.
These hardliners sound more like hardcore catholics than anything else...

[Cubey]

Well what you personally think isn't really going to cut it unfortunately, i mean theres a lot of medical studies and laws in place to suggest you are wrong.

The problem with that is laws don't make things morally right. Slavery and child labor was legal in the US but it didn't make it right just because it was legal, did it?

They call it "PRACTICING" medicine for a reason. They really don't know crap about how the body works for the most part. And whatever "medical studies" you're referring to are just a way of justifying and rationalizing genocide of unborn babies. I don't care what some shithead doctor says.. he's a human butcher. Anything that happens to him, he frankly has coming to him. I don't condone murder of the doctors or wish them dead.. but if it happens, I don't feel sorry for them. Considering how many lives they take under protection of the law, it really doesn't seem right they get to walk free while a 7-11robber shoots the clerk gets locked up for years.

Just because the law allows something doesn't make it right!

They aren't murdering and its not babies, if it was murder they would be tried for murder if they were babies there would be no distinct definition of the fetus that goes on to become a baby. You seem to be putting forward a slant that abortions are quick easy convenience choices rather than a choice no one really ever wants to have to make.

You are VERY wrong on this and I will explain why.

If someone goes out and murders a pregnant woman and the fetus (which gets referred to as a BABY) dies, the person can get tried and convicted of double murder.

The only difference seems to be if it's HUMAN or a BABY depends on if the woman was a slut who didn't use protection and now wants to kill their fetus or a woman who wants to carry the fetus full term.

Under the law, it's not a baby if the mother wants to kill it. But under the law it's a baby if the mother wants to carry it full term but gets murdered and the fetus dies too.

The biggest double standard I've ever heard of.

[xVeganAnarchistx]

The problem with that is laws don't make things morally right. Slavery and child labor was legal in the US but it didn't make it right just because it was legal, did it?

They call it "PRACTICING" medicine for a reason. They really don't know crap about how the body works for the most part. And whatever "medical studies" you're referring to are just a way of justifying and rationalizing genocide of unborn babies. I don't care what some shithead doctor says.. he's a human butcher. Anything that happens to him, he frankly has coming to him. I don't condone murder of the doctors or wish them dead.. but if it happens, I don't feel sorry for them. Considering how many lives they take under protection of the law, it really doesn't seem right they get to walk free while a 7-11robber shoots the clerk gets locked up for years.

Just because the law allows something doesn't make it right!

I agree here. Your problem is not defending why a fetus counts though. Is it because it has human DNA? Because it is sentient? Because the pope says so? Their is an obvious difference between you and a fetus. And between a toddler and a fetus. What is it about fetuses that make them morally considerable? What makes their interests trump the obviously important interests of a pregnant women?

You are VERY wrong on this and I will explain why.

If someone goes out and murders a pregnant woman and the fetus (which gets referred to as a BABY) dies, the person can get tried and convicted of double murder.

The only difference seems to be if it's HUMAN or a BABY depends on if the woman was a slut who didn't use protection and now wants to kill their fetus or a woman who wants to carry the fetus full term.

Under the law, it's not a baby if the mother wants to kill it. But under the law it's a baby if the mother wants to carry it full term but gets murdered and the fetus dies too.

The biggest double standard I've ever heard of.

a women is not a "slut" because she wants an abortion. you are assuming a lot in saying that. And it suggests you are beyond rational debate to blindly assert that any women who gets an abortion is a doing it out of selfish convenience.

In the end, i hope you demand a really extensive welfare state to care for unwanted or those who are unable to be cared for. Because forcing women to bring a life into this world does not mean that life will not suffer anymore.

[Kid Edge]

I hate how hardline,and edge are easily confused.I mean i looked up a list of straight edge bands,and it had Vegan Reich in it.And on the artwork for them,it plainly said "hardline".It also had Anti-Flag on there,but that's another story