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those elements though, charity, forgiveness and similar things, are not exclusive to christianity. You of course are welcome to see it as the true spirit of christianity but anyone can be charitable or forgiving without having any relation to christianity. I think this thread is more about the things that are exclusive and defining of what the world knows as christianity which of course general means looking and the bible as a source.Quote:
Originally Posted by lo0m
peace to you too.
I got the NKJV bible and Matthew 12:31-32 saysQuote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men."
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
Annnnd I'm not going against the spirit of God by being straight edge.
So you can be straight edge and christian.
So thinking that god is wrong isn't blasphemy? How exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
nevermind you're just going to say that bible is wrong too am I right?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
nevermind the quote is the exact same in your bible....Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
If you believe in "the holy trinity", they're 3 separate things unified together to 1.
they're 3 parts of one thing. So if you think that jesus was wrong, you're blaspheming the holy spirit. Even if you try and separate them then don't you think it's kind of convenient that you don't think jesus was wrong is blasphemy because a piece of scripture only makes reference to the holy spirit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
Then why does it say if blasphemy against Jesus it's forgivable but if blasphemy against the holy spirit it's not? They're clearly 2 different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
If you still don't understand, hopefully this will help you:
Like if your last name was "Borelli" and if in that family there's you, somebody else, and another person, you guys are still the "Borelli" family (like the 3 things making up what is called the holy trinity) but there's still you, someone else and someone else separate from eachother but you all are still unified as "Borelli".
yeah I think it's conveinent, because it means we're not all doomed to go to hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
A piece of scripture? What other proof do you want? For God to show up on your doorstep and say it verbally?
You're trying to say that because it doesn't mention jesus by name that it clearly wouldn't be the same as the spirit? if that's the case, then please explain to me what would be blasphemy of the holy spirit and what would be blasphemy of jesus? Why would you be able to blaspheme two parts of the trinity and be forgiven and yet one you couldn't? How does that make any kind of sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
Yeah, but that's not a good analogy at all. They're still all parts of the same thing. They're still all the godhead. jesus is god in human form. The holy ghost is the non physical manifestation of god's will. It's still essentially all god and they aren't really separable at all.Quote:
If you still don't understand, hopefully this will help you:
Like if your last name was "Borelli" and if in that family there's you, somebody else, and another person, you guys are still the "Borelli" family (like the 3 things making up what is called the holy trinity) but there's still you, someone else and someone else separate from eachother but you all are still unified as "Borelli".
If you're a good christian then why would you blaspheme either god or jesus? If you actually believed that the words and actions of your god were right, why would you ever disagree or judge them?Quote:
yeah I think it's conveinent, because it means we're not all doomed to go to hell.
A piece of scripture? What other proof do you want? For God to show up on your doorstep and say it verbally?
It doesn't say Jesus by name because Jesus himself was saying that out loud.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
They're still 3 distinct things.
For the holy trinity, it's the father, the son, and the holy spirit, the father is the one who has the fury, the one who judges, the one who ultimately makes the decisions in the end. That's why I was using that family analogy. Then there's the holy spirit. You can compare it to a "motherly" thing. It's about the joy, love, mercy, compassion, etc. Then there's the son, known as Jesus, the guy who we're all supposed to be able to relate to on a human level.
So if you go against the holy spirit, you're basically choosing to be "bad". That's why Jesus said you will be known by your fruits. You've either got good in you or you got bad in you. And on judgment day you'll either be justified or condemned. If you have a good excuse or not basically, if you knew what was right in your heart or not.
Matthew 12:33 says "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad"
and then in Matthew 12:36 it says that God will ultimately be the one to judge, and you will either be justified or condemned. Emphasis on the word "justified". It means life isn't black and white. The gray areas are the parts that you can either be justified on, or condemned. That's why I said before as long as you know what's in your heart & where you stand you should be fine.
I never said I was perfect & I'm not judging God I'm just trying to do what he says, and it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that I have to drink wine, or that if you don't drink it, it's bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
that doesn't affect the question that you still haven't answered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
That's all great but doesn't really address my question to you. You're saying that these things are seperate but you've completely ignored why you think it's forgivable to blaspheme god and jesus but not ok to blaspheme the holy ghost? I also don't think you really understand that concept of the trinity. They cannot be separate and distinct and have it still be a monotheistic religion. What you're describing is a polytheistic system which breaks the whole no other god before me part. The entire point of jesus was that he was the human manifestation of god and infused with the holy spirit. You cannot have one piece of the trinity without the other two, which is why I asked and continue to ask why you think you can blaspheme two but not the third?Quote:
They're still 3 distinct things.
For the holy trinity, it's the father, the son, and the holy spirit, the father is the one who has the fury, the one who judges, the one who ultimately makes the decisions in the end. That's why I was using that family analogy. Then there's the holy spirit. You can compare it to a "motherly" thing. It's about the joy, love, mercy, compassion, etc. Then there's the son, known as Jesus, the guy who we're all supposed to be able to relate to on a human level.
So if you go against the holy spirit, you're basically choosing to be "bad". That's why Jesus said you will be known by your fruits. You've either got good in you or you got bad in you. And on judgment day you'll either be justified or condemned. If you have a good excuse or not basically, if you knew what was right in your heart or not.
Matthew 12:33 says "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad"
and then in Matthew 12:36 it says that God will ultimately be the one to judge, and you will either be justified or condemned. Emphasis on the word "justified". It means life isn't black and white. The gray areas are the parts that you can either be justified on, or condemned. That's why I said before as long as you know what's in your heart & where you stand you should be fine.
So drinking of alcohol is ok and something that should be done? Would you give alcohol to people that were already drunk at a wedding? Would you serve alcohol to your friends and family at a dinner?Quote:
I never said I was perfect & I'm not judging God I'm just trying to do what he says, and it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that I have to drink wine, or that if you don't drink it, it's bad.
and that's the point.. christianity is not a monotheistic religion despite all the claims.. but unitarian christianity or some other denominations maybe are ...Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
the vast majority of christians and christian doctrine would disagree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by lo0m
basically you're asking why I think it's okay for it to be forgiveable to blasphemy jesus and not the holy spirit? Because it says so??Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
if the holy spirit is all about compassion & mercy & everything, how can God have anger, etc? Those two things cannot exist as the same THING, but they can co-exist next to eachother FOR the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
no, you interpreted it like thatQuote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
The holy spirit was in Jesus & it's in other people too. Jesus said you will be judged based on your good fruits or bad fruits. The holy spirit is basically what makes someone good (compassion, mercy, love etc.), & it's what made Jesus like he was. If you throw away the holy spirit from your life, it's kind of more intentional than throwing away Jesus out of your life, because normally when that happens it's out of confusion or whatever. And Jesus is merciful & forgiving (which comes from the holy spirit). & if you think about it, you could call any sin a blasphemy. But when you throw away the holy spirit, all of what the holy spirit is about, not just parts of it but the whole holy spirit as one in itself, you're basically "bad" and in the end that's where you get cast into hell. It also says in the bible that for some people there is no hope for them. I think it's pretty much realized that if there's no good in you, then that's pretty much just the kind of person you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
noQuote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
noQuote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
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Originally Posted by xsecx
So you just read what things say and don't think about them? If jesus was god, why would he encourage the blasphemy of himself or god?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
You're talking about something that doesn't make sense. You're trying to say that is somehow 3 separate things but are also one thing. You're attributing characteristics to one to separate it from the others, however there's no reason for it. The holy spirit is a christian creation that didn't exist in the old testament, any mention of it then was in relation to god, not as some separate thing.Quote:
if the holy spirit is all about compassion & mercy & everything, how can God have anger, etc? Those two things cannot exist as the same THING, but they can co-exist next to eachother FOR the same thing.
well no, you keep saying they're separate things. If they're not the same thing, then you're worshiping multiple gods.Quote:
no, you interpreted it like that
So then how exactly is thinking one of jesus's miracles is wrong, not blasphemy of the holy spirit? How does this address why you think it's ok to blaspheme god and jesus? You just linked the actions of jesus with the holy spirit? And no, every sin isn't blasphemy. If you believe that god is wrong, that's blasphemy, not simply because you did something it said you shouldn't. Sin and blasphemy are totally different things.Quote:
The holy spirit was in Jesus & it's in other people too. Jesus said you will be judged based on your good fruits or bad fruits. The holy spirit is basically what makes someone good (compassion, mercy, love etc.), & it's what made Jesus like he was. If you throw away the holy spirit from your life, it's kind of more intentional than throwing away Jesus out of your life, because normally when that happens it's out of confusion or whatever. And Jesus is merciful & forgiving (which comes from the holy spirit). & if you think about it, you could call any sin a blasphemy. But when you throw away the holy spirit, all of what the holy spirit is about, not just parts of it but the whole holy spirit as one in itself, you're basically "bad" and in the end that's where you get cast into hell. It also says in the bible that for some people there is no hope for them. I think it's pretty much realized that if there's no good in you, then that's pretty much just the kind of person you are.
so you judge the actions of jesus as wrong and something you wouldn't do.Quote:
no
no
no
who's saying he's encouraging blasphemy? he's saying it's forgiveable.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
maybe a picture will help you.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
http://www.boston-catholic-journal.c...ly-trinity.jpg
If you only follow the old testement you're Jewish. The reason why Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the true messiah is because he didn't fufill every single one of their prophecies. If you believe in the new testement and what Jesus was saying, you're christian. There's a difference between Christian and Jewish.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
If you put everything I said together in the last post, maybe it would have made some sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
you're relating the holy spirit to jesus since it's all part of the trinity. But when you're allowed to be forgiven for one and not the other, CLEARLY it tells us that they are NOT the same. They are INCLUDED in the same thing, which is what you're supposed to worship: God.
Why would you say when you make the sign of the cross "in the name of the father, the son, the holy spirit" then why even recognize them as 3 names? They each MAKE UP the holy trinity, and the holy trinity itself symbolizes 1 thing, as God. It didn't say if you blasphemy the holy trinity. It said if you blasphemy the holy spirit but not jesus (who is recognized as the son).
if that's how you want to say it, then I guess it's forgiveable anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx