do you believe that drinking is wrong and something that the world would be better off without?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
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do you believe that drinking is wrong and something that the world would be better off without?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
i think it's unnecessary.....except in respect of the church for their symbolic use of it but I personally don't even drink it there.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
then you're in disagreement with your god, and therefore committing blasphemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
no? In the bible it said Jesus took his blood and told his deciples to drink it.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
That was then. Today the church just carries on that tradition in a symbolic sense. They did it on their own. It's not a sin if you don't drink it.
I've been staying out of this thread for personal reasons, but the last post made me curious. So I went to my bible (New International Version) to look up the Lord's Supper which everyone is talking about (Matthew 26:17-30) because I don't think that the cup that was passed the dinner table was Jesus's actual blood, but wine used as a symbol; thus the argument on this site.
"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, 'Take and eat; this is my body.'"
"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sings. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.'"
I thought line 29 was very interesting, stating that Jesus would drink "the fruit of the vine" (wine) until the disciples meet him in his father's kingdom; which could be interpreted as heaven or as some fundamental Christians claim, the second coming. So then could the argument be that it would be wise to not drink wine until humanity sees Jesus again? Christians are just followers of Jesus; he sets the example.
I know that the core of the argument here is if we as individuals claiming straightedge believe that drinking is wrong. And if so, does that belief fly in the face of Jesus's actions? Again, I think this all boils down to interpretation of both the bible and the straightedge lifestyle and ideology. I don't think drinking in moderation is wrong, but it's obviously not the best choice for me.
it wasn't blood, it was wine. It was wine at the wedding in cana. It is a sin to think that god is wrong. If you think the consumption of alcohol is wrong, it's in direct conflict with the teachings and actions of jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
You also have to take into account the wedding at cana. The simple fact of the matter is that jesus had no problem or issue with the consumption of alcohol. This really isn't up to interpretation or argument. I also completely fail to understand how someone can be straight edge and not think that drinking alcohol is wrong. There's a difference between accepting the choices of others and believing that they are positive and something that should be encouraged. I couldn't imagine anyone who calls themselves straight edge honestly believing that the world wouldn't be a better place if there was no alcohol.Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlaRant
Forst of all, Mark 14:23 says "Then he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it and gave it to them, "This is my blood, poured out for many, sealing the new agreement between God and man."'Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I'm not judging god on why he used wine but I certainly don't think it was to get everyone drunk.
You can think whatever you want but I seriously think your mind is fucked up becase religion isn't politics. It's really not about all the things you do wrong.
I don't even think you got the point where I said you can even be friends with people who drink occasionally and it doesnt mean you're condoning or encouraging it. It kind of ties into the whole "but Jesus did alcohol" thing. You can keep trying to twist it and make it look like it's disagreeing with him or turning your back on him or whatever, and it's not any form of sin by not liking alcohol and not drinking it. And that doesn't go against any "rules" of straightedge.
It doesn't say anywhere that it's a sin thinking God is wrong but it does say you're a fool if you don't follow his word and I'm not breaking any word when it comes to being straightedge. I don't know what you think blasphemy is....but it's turning your back on God. Being straightedge and not liking alcohol is not blasphemy in your little dramatic mind.
that doesn't make it blood, it was symbolic, even if you want think that it was, then focus on the wedding at cana where he gave alcohol to people who were already drunk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
So you think that the consumption of alcohol is fine and something you should do? I also don't really understand why you think my mind is fucked up? Religion is about beliefs and living in accordance to those beliefs. The entire point of this thread is that there are very real conflicts between 2 sets of beliefs. 1 set believes that drinking is wrong. 1 set believes that it isn't.Quote:
I'm not judging god on why he used wine but I certainly don't think it was to get everyone drunk.
You can think whatever you want but I seriously think your mind is fucked up becase religion isn't politics. It's really not about all the things you do wrong.
No, I got the point, it's just not relevant. You don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in god. Take alcohol, homosexuality, moral veganism. If your views differ from that of god, then you're guilty of the sin of blasphemy. You saying that it isn't a sin, doesn't really mean anything.Quote:
I don't even think you got the point where I said you can even be friends with people who drink occasionally and it doesnt mean you're condoning or encouraging it. It kind of ties into the whole "but Jesus did alcohol" thing. You can keep trying to twist it and make it look like it's disagreeing with him or turning your back on him or whatever, and it's not any form of sin by not liking alcohol and not drinking it. And that doesn't go against any "rules" of straightedge.
Quote:
It doesn't say anywhere that it's a sin thinking God is wrong but it does say you're a fool if you don't follow his word and I'm not breaking any word when it comes to being straightedge. I don't know what you think blasphemy is....but it's turning your back on God. Being straightedge and not liking alcohol is not blasphemy in your little dramatic mind.
Main Entry:
blas·phe·my Listen to the pronunciation of blasphemy
Pronunciation:
\ˈblas-fə-mē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural blas·phe·mies
Date:
13th century
1 a: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
Thinking god is wrong, is in fact showing a lack of reverence for god and is insulting. I don't think you understand what blasphemy is and I get the feeling that you're one of those christians that just ignore the parts of the bible you don't agree with rather than coming to terms with the fact that it's a flawed book and a flawed religion. I just find it hilarious that people think that they're good pious christians but then talk about how god is wrong. The fact that you think your god can be wrong, your omniscient all powerful god is wrong, speaks volumes on what your actual beliefs are and what they're based on.
It doesn't say anywhere that the people got drunk or that they were already drunkQuote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Christianity isn't entirely made up of 1 belief that "drinking is okay" and that's not what it's based on.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I understand clearly...Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I'm not commiting any of those, except the "moral veganism". I do find it wrong to mistreat animals and I barely eat meat anyways because it isn't healthy for you. I don't own anything made from real leather. I try to make sure all my cosmetics don't do testing on animals. So I don't know where you're getting that idea from.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I never said I think God is wrong.......so really......how is it relevant then. He used wine before. So what. I never drank any. And I don't plan on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
the well drunk part of the scripture. It's kind of insane to think that people had wine flowing at a wedding and that people wouldn't get drunk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
entirely or not, it's based on the infallibility of god. in christianity drinking is encouraged and was an activity done by your god. in straight edge, drinking is discouraged and something not done by anyone who is straight edge. these beliefs contradict each other.Quote:
Christianity isn't entirely made up of 1 belief that "drinking is okay" and that's not what it's based on.
then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about.Quote:
I understand clearly...
so you don't disagree with the view of god at all then? I was using those as exampled. the problem of blasphemy exists if for instance, you don't have an issue with homosexuality, if you have an issue with the eating of animals, etc. The problem exists way beyond just straight edge. The morality of christianity doesn't change with time, while the morality of humanity does.Quote:
I'm not commiting any of those, except the "moral veganism". I do find it wrong to mistreat animals and I barely eat meat anyways because it isn't healthy for you. I don't own anything made from real leather. I try to make sure all my cosmetics don't do testing on animals. So I don't know where you're getting that idea from.
No, you just act like you think he's wrong. Since you ignored the rest of my post and didn't refute it, I'm guessing I hit the nail on the head, so what else do you simply ignore because it doesn't fit your world view?Quote:
I never said I think God is wrong.......so really......how is it relevant then. He used wine before. So what. I never drank any. And I don't plan on it.
what?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
have you ever been to a formal event? it is possible for people to not get drunk.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
just because it's encouraged doesn't mean it's a sin if you don't do it. it says 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
All the quotes in the bible that encourage drinking wine etc etc are all in the old testement anyways. If you follow only the old testement, you're jewish. There are no quotes in the bible in the new testement encouraging drinking. There's only examples of Jesus making wine. But back to what I said of that corinthians quote. So it's not a problem.
you said "you don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in God" and I said "I understand clearly...." and then you said "then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about." What???Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
If the problem exists way beyond straight edge then what's this have to do with straight edge anymore then???Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I don't think he's wrong, and I never said I think he's wrong. I think I'm wrong to drink it and i have "permission" to think I'd be wrong to drink it because of 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
There's no issue with being straight edge and christian
john 2 , 1-11Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
1
1 On the third day there was a wedding 2 in Cana 3 in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
2
Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.
3
When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."
4
4 (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come."
5
His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."
6
5 Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons.
7
Jesus told them, "Fill the jars with water." So they filled them to the brim.
8
Then he told them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." 6 So they took it.
9
And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom
10
and said to him, "Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now."
11
Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs 7 in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.
folks were already drunk or at least well on their way when jesus turned the water to wine.
I have, and thats why I know that if people are drinking wine to celebrate, and you add something like 180 gallons of wine to it, that people are going to get shitfaced, it's what people do. If you don't want to get drunk at all, you don't drink wine.Quote:
have you ever been to a formal event? it is possible for people to not get drunk.
It's these statements that prove to me that you don't get it and are fixated on the wrong thing. The sin isn't not doing it. The sin is believing that the act is wrong and therefore thinking jesus is wrong. The wedding at cana wasn't in the old testament. The last supper wasn't in the old testament. I mean shit, people were drunk at the last supper. 1 Cor. 11:21.Quote:
just because it's encouraged doesn't mean it's a sin if you don't do it. it says 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."
All the quotes in the bible that encourage drinking wine etc etc are all in the old testement anyways. If you follow only the old testement, you're jewish. There are no quotes in the bible in the new testement encouraging drinking. There's only examples of Jesus making wine. But back to what I said of that corinthians quote. So it's not a problem.
1 cor 6. Your understanding of scripture is suspect. You're picking passages and a reallly weird translation out of context and trying to use it out of context to justify your position.
12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined [4] to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin [5] a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
this passage has nothing to do with that, but instead is talking sexual morality.
You kept bringing up not having a problem with people drinking moderately, which continues to lead me to believe that you don't understand what is being talked about here.Quote:
you said "you don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in God" and I said "I understand clearly...." and then you said "then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about." What???
just because the problem exists in more than just straight edge, doesn't mean it doesn't have anything to do with straight edge.Quote:
If the problem exists way beyond straight edge then what's this have to do with straight edge anymore then???
You think the act of drinking alcohol is wrong. And again, your grasp of scripture is comically bad.Quote:
I don't think he's wrong, and I never said I think he's wrong. I think I'm wrong to drink it and i have "permission" to think I'd be wrong to drink it because of 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."
if you say it enough times, that won't change the facts. see you in hell!Quote:
There's no issue with being straight edge and christian
holy shit, you have a paraphrased bible called the living bible. no wonder you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and have a fucked up idea of what the scripture says, you're not even familiar with the source, but a bad interpretation of the source that was so bad that the dude who wrote it chucked it and the newer version isn't anywhere near the shit you just spewed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily852
which one were you using