hahaha, now thats a quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by stepinsideissue
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hahaha, now thats a quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by stepinsideissue
funny thing is, thats not trueQuote:
Originally Posted by chadfitzy
so which verses were these?Quote:
Originally Posted by chadfitzy
well : matthew 15:21 -28Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
otherwise known as the faith of the canaanite woman
in this he judges a woman falsely and has to be persuaded to heal her daughter.
- proof that jesus did make mistakes, (if you believe the bible that is.)
21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.Quote:
Originally Posted by force majeure
22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
That doesn't read to me that jesus made a mistake at all. What makes you think that?
That's how I roll. Be glad I reduced the corn!Quote:
Originally Posted by D1988
ok. you stumped me. sorry for the argument
To preface, first of all I am not straightedge but most of my best friends are. Also, as much as I would like to be straightedge, I know for a fact that its not fair to try and be something your not, because I occasionally indulge in the alcoholic beverage or two. But I respect the hell out those who are truly straightedge because you guys have some of the determination and fortitude that the rest of this world needs. With that said, I thought I would add my two cents on this subject. Not that I think that straightedge kids can or cannot be Christian and straightedge. I believe that this is more of a subjunctive question because theres many underlying factors. First and foremost, the fact that many different sects of Christianity do not believe the exact same thing. Evangelicals and newborn Christians, for instance, believe that those who do not change their wickedness will be cursed to the depths of hell. I myself am a Catholic, so I think it is important to being up a point that deals more with I believe in. In reference to xsecx claim that Jesus is God, that isn't necessarily true, at least from a Catholic's point of view. Catholics believe that Jesus did not become our savior until after he was resurrected. The idea we have to keep in mind here is that Jesus is not God, but the human manifestation of God, gift-wrapped with all the human qualities we all share. The gospels make reference of this in the form of a tale of Jesus' early life. In Luke:
Luke 2:41-52
The Boy Jesus at the Temple
41Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."
49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Not only did Jesus make a mistake by not returning to his parents, but the bible states that "Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them" (Luke 2:51). This is the only account of Jesus life in any of the four gospels. With that said, Jesus was also tempted in the desert by the devil himself. Both Catholic and non-catholic scholars believe that this was a sign of Jesus' humanity. The devil wouldn't tempt Jesus if he thought he was in fact just God on earth. This story can be found in Luke 4:1-14.
I hope this answer's xsecx question to xmegx about whether Jesus is perfect, because he is not. In fact, the existence of the humanity of Jesus negates any possibility that he can or was ever perfect. After the Resurrection is a different story, but humanity and perfection are oxymorons when referring to Jesus as God. It's just an incorrect relation. God is, among other things, onmipresent and omniscient. While the bible tells of Jesus having amazing powers, he was neither of these. He was limited to his qualities as a human. The best example I think of that would prove Jesus' imperfection was trashing the bizarre in front of the temple (John 2:12-25). There was genuine anger in Jesus when he did this, even screaming at those turning the temple into a marketplace. My point of all this is that I think the six degrees of separation that's being used to say that Christian and straightedge beliefs contradict is flawed, only because the reasoning is that Jesus is God. Since he is not God until the resurrection, its safe to assume that Jesus' consumption of wine, while unacceptable to the straightedge world, has to be taken with a grain of salt because Jesus was fallible in those times before the resurrection of Christ. Now I'm not taking sides in all of this, I just thought it would be appropriate to state some facts and clear up some of the confusion. Thanks for accepting my membership, I look forward to posting in the future.
wow when i said subjunctive i meant to say subjective. my bad.
here's the point though, humans have 2 parents and can't perform miracles and don't refer to themselves as god.Quote:
Originally Posted by nplang08
Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
the entire point of the christ figure is that he is perfect and without sin, that's why he's capable of taking on the sins of humanity. If he was just simply a human until he died, then why was he the only one? What would make him unique and then, why would he have been the only one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I think you missed my point though. I agree totally that the CHRIST FIGURE was perfect, but only after the resurrection. The idea that there exists in Jesus of Nazareth, the child born of the virgin Mary, a certain humanity, different from being totally human, negates any idea of his perfection until after the resurrection. This is why Catholics celebrate Easter. It symbolizes the forgiveness of our sins. Your second quote solidifies my answer. Martha acknowledges that her brother will rise AFTER the Resurrection. When Jesus is the resurrection and the life, it only foreshadows his death on the cross. The Christ figure cannot be fully recognized until the resurrection. You have to understand that there are things in the bible that cannot be taken literally. In your first quote, he is speaking of spirituality. Its a hunger and thirst for faith. Not physical food. I understand Jesus was not totally human, but he had humanity and divinity during his lifetime, making it impossible for him to be perfect. Is he the Son of God? yes. Was he born of the virgin Mary? yes. Was he able to save our sins before the resurrection? no. Galations makes a clear reference to Jesus being a man under the law: (Gal. 4:5-6) But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Although he was divine, he was still born of a human. Perfection is only achieved after the resurrection, so when Jesus drank the wine, he was not perfect.
No, I got your point, the scripture just doesn't support it. Jesus in the scripture refers to himself as salvation and god while living as a "human", so how would he then not be perfect? Your reasoning isn't sound and negates the divinity of jesus during his life, when in actual context of the bible doesn't make sense. The resurrection was the final act of divinity, not the first. How can he have divinity and not be perfect? How can he be human and not without sin? Or do you believe that jesus did sin? How can jesus make representations that he is god, like he did in the first quote, if you're saying he wasn't? How does that reconcile within your beliefs? If jesus was truly the son of god, why would he only be perfect after death?Quote:
Originally Posted by nplang08
Your still confusing being "human" with the idea of humanity. It's taught through scripture that Jesus was both divine and human, and that in fact is what made him unique. I never stated that the resurrection was the first act of divinity, all of his miracles can be considered divine acts. The resurrection was though the act that him totally divine, totally perfect. I know that Jesus was not totally human, he was "humane" though and there existed a humanity. My reasoning is perfectly sound. Of course Jesus said he was the salvation of God. He also said he was the bread and the life. But can you tell me when he became that salvation, that bread? it wasn't when was born, it was after the resurrection. If he were not both of both human and divine nature, only divine, Jesus would not have had to die for the salvation of all our sins. This argument has crossed some very philosophical paths now haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
We are now arguing something that scholars have been debating for years: how can Jesus have both human and divine natures. The scriptures show that he does, but how is this possible. I think you bring up some valid points about the perfection of Jesus during his lifetime, but I also find it hard to believe considering he had proven many times in the gospels that he did have a human nature (bazaar at the temple, temptation in the desert, getting lost in Luke). Thats why when I posted my first quote I said this idea of perfection is subjective, not objective. The problem with the scriptures is that they can be interpreted differently. For exmaple you say he called himself the savior, while I say he only inferred what he knew would be true by making those statements.
Yes, but by being divine it kind of overrules any human faults. How can something be divine, but faulty? Jesus didn't speak while he was alive that following him was the only way to salvation? The entire point is that, the same with god any actions that were done, were perfect and above human criticism. Would you say that god was wrong for the destruction of soddom and gomarah? Or the flood? If so, then how can you a human, judge and disagree with the actions of your god? What jesus wrong for providing wine to a wedding, an act of divinity?Quote:
Originally Posted by nplang08
I guess the last question you pose is harder for me to answer since I am not straightedge. Do I personally believe that Jesus was wrong for turning water into wine? no, but thats just because I am a Catholic who occasionally drinks (don't do drugs though). It gets tricky when you bring up the Old Testament and the New Testament when it comes to God's actions, because God was directly involved in the Old Testament, the creation story, Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, Moses, etc. but not in the New Testament. With the inception of the Holy Spirit being presented in the New Testament, there was no need for God's direct involvement with us. Free will I think is the term that may be most important here. The thing is the I'm not too into what other sects of Christianity are taught, all I know is that evangelism and new-born Christianity scares the shit out of me lol. I know that the Catholic church teaches that Jesus' death and resurrection implies that your sins can be forgiven, as long as you totally repent. God understands the fact that we are human, and humans make mistakes. Now this is going back to New Testament God, not to say that the God in the two books are two different Gods, but God as he was portrayed in the Old Testament was a little more wrathful. Again, I think you being up some awesome points, and I can understand from your point of view how it would be contradictory to be Christian and straightedge. I guess the truth of the matter is theres a crapload of proof for both our points in the Old and New Testament, which I still, as a Catholic, don't really understand why that is. Guess why I have to take some things on faith. Dude I like this site, theres intelligent arguments on here as opposed to "fuck you your wrong" and "your a douschebag".Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx