Can You Be Christian And Straight Edge?

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

04-19-2006, 09:52 AM
Raeus

Quote:

Originally Posted by xsecx

Where did anyone say that "one must hate and disrespect non-members"?

No one really said it, but that was the feeling I got from the general posts.

XsecX, I totally understand where you're coming from, but I still feel that this should be about actions. People can say they believe whatever they want, but what people do defines them. What I'm saying is, IF (and I'm not sure this could ever actually work, but it seems logical to me) someone could practice both the ideals of Straight Edge and those of a religion, then they would in fact already be both. I see that Christianity in general has many issues that could make this difficult, and as the leader is suppossed to be perfect, and in the eyes of straight edge Jesus is not, Christianity doesn't fit.

I suppose never really having being Christian (despite growing up in such a home) skews me on this, and I put my mentor in too high of a place, but I've used him as my example. I model my life after most of his, and I respect him very much. But I do not try to be him, and try to be better than he ever was. I learn from his mistakes intsead of having to make them on my own. Isn't that how religion is suppossed to work? Is it not suppossed to guide one's life and make them better people for it? I don't really know. Christianity is difficult, and I've read that article in the other post. I guess my only issue comes in the practice of one's worship, and not in the ideas. This may seem ridiculous, acting without a solid base of ideas beneath you, but people do it every day, and those religious are certainly not exceptions.
04-19-2006, 10:01 AM
xsecx

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raeus

No one really said it, but that was the feeling I got from the general posts.

ok. which general posts?

Quote:

XsecX, I totally understand where you're coming from, but I still feel that this should be about actions. People can say they believe whatever they want, but what people do defines them. What I'm saying is, IF (and I'm not sure this could ever actually work, but it seems logical to me) someone could practice both the ideals of Straight Edge and those of a religion, then they would in fact already be both. I see that Christianity in general has many issues that could make this difficult, and as the leader is suppossed to be perfect, and in the eyes of straight edge Jesus is not, Christianity doesn't fit.

Christianity has issues that make it impossible. You can't say you believe that jesus is perfect and god but then say that you disagree with him. Jesus isn't the leader, he's god. You're trying to look at it as jesus just being a man, which if you're christian you don't believe.

Quote:

I suppose never really having being Christian (despite growing up in such a home) skews me on this, and I put my mentor in too high of a place, but I've used him as my example. I model my life after most of his, and I respect him very much. But I do not try to be him, and try to be better than he ever was. I learn from his mistakes intsead of having to make them on my own. Isn't that how religion is suppossed to work? Is it not suppossed to guide one's life and make them better people for it? I don't really know. Christianity is difficult, and I've read that article in the other post. I guess my only issue comes in the practice of one's worship, and not in the ideas. This may seem ridiculous, acting without a solid base of ideas beneath you, but people do it every day, and those religious are certainly not exceptions.

Your mentor isn't god and doesn't dictate to you what to believe, how to think and how to live your life.
04-19-2006, 10:37 AM
xriseupx

I used to have a really stupid view on what Christianity really was -- for some people, it really is a crutch. Christianity is not a crutch for me -- to live as a true Christian is not an easy thing to do -- you will have your rough times where you rely on God for help -- but God will NOT help those unwilling to help themselves. Those who think that God is a cureall are shunned by God, and those that are not thankful in the good times of their lives are not blessed by God.
A relationship with God is through thick and thin, regardless of your circumstances.
I don't care if you're Christian or not... It doesn't matter -- I've been a part of every faith under the sun, and there was a time that I was atheist. During this time, I was also a fucking druggie... So, yea... When I became Christian, things started changing immensely in my life, and it wasn't because I was relying on God as some crutch. To say that Christianity is merely a crutch is a completely biased view on what Christianity really is, based on how far too many people treat it. In all honesty, I think MOST Christians miss the point of the faith itself.
The faith itself is not MEANT to be an organized religion -- true Christianity is not about religion, it's about relationship.
Now, I used to be into metal, I got out of that and got a lot more into hardcore... I got involved with the scene, and while some hardcore bands had a strictly "anti-religion" approach, others strayed from the topic of religion and focused and what's really important about the scene, and about edge -- which is a clean lifestyle.
Now, if Christianity led me to a clean lifestyle, then what? I honestly feel that in my constant lust for alternative music and lifestyles, that Christianity led me to the scene, and got me out of the more occultic and drug-based metal that I used to be involved in.
I mean, you can't really argue with that... You can tell me all day long I can't be edge and Christian just because some bands who originally coined "straightedge" had a particularly anti-religious view, but I don't really care.
I'm edge because I used to be an addict, I overcame, and now I'm fucking proud of it. I changed my life in a spiritual sense, and I found something amazing in hardcore and sxe living, so fuck all that.

As far as the wine topic goes... As it was said before, wine was not used for any purpose of intoxication, and the type of wine used IS healthy, not just in providing antioxidants... but it's also extremely good for your heart.
It's HEALTHY. As in, if you do not exceed a small glass of it, it's actually BENEFICIAL to your health. Yes, as in -- it can be a part of clean living.
It's not a part of my clean-living, because I can't have alcohol in my life for any purpose whatsoever. But in the sense that Jesus drank wine, it was perfectly acceptable, and... as I said, healthy. Know your facts about it. Read about it. Red wine imparticular.

I mean, maybe you've got it so deeply ingrained into your mind that I can't be straightedge and christian, but in my life, the two coincide. You can't tell me that because I'm Christian, I can't support the scene and what it's about. Christianity is not some crutch in my life.

Although, I could reverse this, and say that sXe is YOUR religion, and a crutch that you use for empowerment, but that would be completely off-base then, would it not? Ha...

So, no matter your opinion... I am edge... And I am Christian... Some fucking lyrics don't change that.
04-19-2006, 10:52 AM
xriseupx

Quote:

Originally Posted by straightXed

It doesn't matter that wine can provide antioxidants. There are lots of non alcoholic items that provide the same antioxidants and give the same benifit to the human heart, what does matter is that it is an alcoholic drink that is drank recreationally and thus goes completely against what straightedge stands for.

Yes, alcohol is used recreationally.
Christianity considers recreational use of alcohol a sin. The bible on and on casts down drunkeness -- as a spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical problem. Wrong in every aspect.

The fact is... Jesus did not use wine recreationally. As in, no intoxication whatsoever.
In the sense that Christ consumed wine, as I said, over and over again, it was a healthly practice.
He couldn't just go to the nearest convenience mart and purchase the latest non alcoholic substance with as many health benefits as wine had. VERY VERY moderate wine drinking.
I mean, I understand that edge is completely against any consumption of alcohol whatsoever -- and it is my personal decision not to drink any alcohol, but it's still not wrong that Jesus did. I don't consume anything that might in anyway effect me on a psychoactive level. Again, personal choice. The churches that I go to use grape juice and not wine for communion. I wouldn't partake in communion if I had to drink the wine, because I don't want alcohol to even touch my lips. This is a personal decision for my own reasons, not because "sXe says so".

IT WAS NOT RECREATIONAL. No detrimental effects to health in their extremely moderate consumption.
04-19-2006, 11:17 AM
xsecx

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

Yes, alcohol is used recreationally.
Christianity considers recreational use of alcohol a sin. The bible on and on casts down drunkeness -- as a spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical problem. Wrong in every aspect.

No christianity considers drunkness a sin, not the recreational use of alcohol. Jesus and his disciples drank alcohol recreationally.

Quote:

The fact is... Jesus did not use wine recreationally. As in, no intoxication whatsoever.
In the sense that Christ consumed wine, as I said, over and over again, it was a healthly practice.

If it's a healthy practice why are you against it and think it's wrong? And yes, Jesus did drink wine recreationally. If he drank wine, he did in fact reach a level of intoxication, because that's how alcohol effects the body and does so in very small amounts.

Quote:

He couldn't just go to the nearest convenience mart and purchase the latest non alcoholic substance with as many health benefits as wine had. VERY VERY moderate wine drinking.
I mean, I understand that edge is completely against any consumption of alcohol whatsoever -- and it is my personal decision not to drink any alcohol, but it's still not wrong that Jesus did. I don't consume anything that might in anyway effect me on a psychoactive level. Again, personal choice. The churches that I go to use grape juice and not wine for communion. I wouldn't partake in communion if I had to drink the wine, because I don't want alcohol to even touch my lips. This is a personal decision for my own reasons, not because "sXe says so".

So if you think it's healthy and the right thing to do, why don't you do it? And also are we supposed to believe that jesus turned water to wine for people who were already drunk, he did so for the health reasons?

Quote:

IT WAS NOT RECREATIONAL. No detrimental effects to health in their extremely moderate consumption.

awesome, so then why don't you do it and why would you allign yourself with a group that is very clear about our beliefs on any level alcohol consumption?
04-19-2006, 11:27 AM
straightXed

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

Yes, alcohol is used recreationally.
Christianity considers recreational use of alcohol a sin. The bible on and on casts down drunkeness -- as a spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical problem. Wrong in every aspect.

Drunkeness is not necessarily the outcome of recreationally drinking. Drinking wine at the last supper is an example of recreationally drinking wine. Is that a sin?

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

The fact is... Jesus did not use wine recreationally. As in, no intoxication whatsoever.

Do you understand recreational use? And now you are saying things are fact where as before hand there was no factual evidence. For reference are you resourcing the bible as fact?

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

In the sense that Christ consumed wine, as I said, over and over again, it was a healthly practice.

Health isn't an issue at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

He couldn't just go to the nearest convenience mart and purchase the latest non alcoholic substance with as many health benefits as wine had. VERY VERY moderate wine drinking.

An irrelevent issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

I mean, I understand that edge is completely against any consumption of alcohol whatsoever -- and it is my personal decision not to drink any alcohol, but it's still not wrong that Jesus did.

So as a straightedge person you are completely against the consumption of alcohol yet you follow the example of jesus but you do not see that you thinking that the consumtion of alcohol is wrong is relative to you saying jesus's example is wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

I don't consume anything that might in anyway effect me on a psychoactive level. Again, personal choice. The churches that I go to use grape juice and not wine for communion. I wouldn't partake in communion if I had to drink the wine, because I don't want alcohol to even touch my lips. This is a personal decision for my own reasons, not because "sXe says so".

Yeah but no one should adhere to the things that qualify straightedge just because "sxe says so". Sxe people should describe themselves as such because it accurately describes their choices, opinions and reasons. The same should be said with christianity, their are far to many people who claim they are christian but christianity doesn't accurately describe their beliefs at all. A christian that feels so strongly against alcohol is making a definition against the acts of jesus and saying "jesus, i believe your example for me to be wrong". I mean its not even like your just saying you don't drink, by being straightedge you are completely and utterly against alcohol - you don't even want alcohol to touch your lips because you think its so wrong. If thats the case how can you see jesus as a perfect example?

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

IT WAS NOT RECREATIONAL. No detrimental effects to health in their extremely moderate consumption.

It was recreational, using caps lock won't make your point right:

rec·re·a·tion·al (rĕk'rē-ā'shə-nəl)
adj.
1. Of or relating to recreation: recreational swimming.
2. Of or relating to the occasional use, asserted not to be addictive, of narcotics: “You can't accept recreational drug use and expect to control the drug problem”

Understand the meaning of what you are debating against first before making rash and bold comments.
04-19-2006, 11:28 AM
xriseupx

You keep on asking, "So then why don't you do it?",
because I have my own fucking reasons. I don't fucking want to -- is that OK with you?
My being Christian does not mean that every action that I take is Christlike. And no, I still don't feel that Christ drinking wine is wrong.
But it's wrong for ME -- because I don't want anything like that in my life.
I don't go, "hey, Jesus drank wine, so lets go drink wine, now".
And if you really think that some miniscule amount of wine is going to give you any form of intoxication whatsoever, you must have never consumed alcohol in all of your days.

As for me, I used to be a drug addict. I'm strictly anti-drug in every sense now, because I learned first hand what drugs do to people. My own experiences.
And from my experience, I don't need to be near anything that even has the potential to alter my state of mind in any way.

"Recreational use" denotes using a substance to achieve some altered state of mind. Again, if you think that extremely miniscule amounts of alcohol alter the state of mind, you must have never consumed alcohol before. It doesn't work that way. It takes a certain amount of alcohol to affect you on a psychological level.

Can you simply not wrap your brain around the concept that I don't do every last thing that Jesus did in the bible? Just because I don't disagree with His consumption of alcohol, I'm not going to drink it myself. Again, because I am a former addict, and I strongly abstain from it. I chose this on my own, not because sXe says not to.
And, ofcourse... I'm not going to go get crucified, either.
04-19-2006, 11:36 AM
xriseupx

Quote:

Originally Posted by straightXed

Yeah but no one should adhere to the things that qualify straightedge just because "sxe says so". Sxe people should describe themselves as such because it accurately describes their choices, opinions and reasons. The same should be said with christianity, their are far to many people who claim they are christian but christianity doesn't accurately describe their beliefs at all. A christian that feels so strongly against alcohol is making a definition against the acts of jesus and saying "jesus, i believe your example for me to be wrong". I mean its not even like your just saying you don't drink, by being straightedge you are completely and utterly against alcohol - you don't even want alcohol to touch your lips because you think its so wrong. If thats the case how can you see jesus as a perfect example?

sXe describes my choices and reasons for abstinence. There ya go, buddy...

While the bible has a set example, you wouldn't understand what it means to gain inspiration from faith, prayer, and conviction. I am convicted on a personal level not to partake in alcohol.
sXe isn't for everyone. Not every Christian is sXe. Not every Christian should be.
I don't hate the alcoholic -- I hate the choices he makes.
But, like I said, on a personal level, Christ led me in a way that clearly pointed out, "Kiddo, you don't need to be near alcohol. It's not safe for you. Stay FAR away from it."

Soon thereafter, I found something awesome in straightedge living.
Each person has a personal relationship with Christ -- as in each relationship will be unique in its own manner.
You can't use logic and facts to argue with this -- the only way you could understand is through a first hand experience with Him.

So, this argument all boils down to beliefs that I have that coincide -- I am not every Christian. I am me, a Christian, and I am unique in my path. A true Christian leads his own walk, and strives to be what God has in mind for him. And what God has in mind for me is to stay FAR away from alcohol in every sense, even if it can be beneficial to the health, it is unhealthly for me on a personal level.

Can you understand? It's not that hard to understand that.
04-19-2006, 11:44 AM
xsecx

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

You keep on asking, "So then why don't you do it?",
because I have my own fucking reasons. I don't fucking want to -- is that OK with you?
My being Christian does not mean that every action that I take is Christlike. And no, I still don't feel that Christ drinking wine is wrong.
But it's wrong for ME -- because I don't want anything like that in my life.
I don't go, "hey, Jesus drank wine, so lets go drink wine, now".
And if you really think that some miniscule amount of wine is going to give you any form of intoxication whatsoever, you must have never consumed alcohol in all of your days.

Because you have "your own fucking reasons" that tells that it's wrong. Do you think everyone should drink alcohol and that it's something everyone should do? OR do you believe the world would be a better place if it didn't exist? And it's wrong for YOU because you don't want anything like that in your life? Anything like what? You clearly have never looked into how the body is effected by alcohol if you think it only happens after x number of beers or x number of drinks. It's a cumalitive affect that starts with the first drink, it doesn't just suddenly appear after your 2nd beer.

Quote:

"Recreational use" denotes using a substance to achieve some altered state of mind. Again, if you think that extremely miniscule amounts of alcohol alter the state of mind, you must have never consumed alcohol before. It doesn't work that way. It takes a certain amount of alcohol to affect you on a psychological level.

no it denotes using a substance for anything other then medical reasons. And what is that amount of alcohol necessary to affect you on a psychological or even a physiological level?

Quote:

Can you simply not wrap your brain around the concept that I don't do every last thing that Jesus did in the bible? Just because I don't disagree with His consumption of alcohol, I'm not going to drink it myself. Again, because I am a former addict, and I strongly abstain from it. I chose this on my own, not because sXe says not to.
And, ofcourse... I'm not going to go get crucified, either.

Can you simply not wrap your brain around the concept that you're actually saying that you think drinking is wrong in one breath and then in the next breath trying to say "but I don't think jesus was wrong for drinking it" It's an issue with finding fault in the behavior of your own god. It's really not a hard concept to understand, is it?
04-19-2006, 12:22 PM
straightXed

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

sXe describes my choices and reasons for abstinence. There ya go, buddy...

You are taking this all to personally to see what is being discussed clearly. I suggest going away and taking time to think about what is being said before just flipantly reacting. Whilst it does describe choices it doesn't deal with the issue of contradiction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

While the bible has a set example, you wouldn't understand what it means to gain inspiration from faith, prayer, and conviction. I am convicted on a personal level not to partake in alcohol.

why wouldn't i understand? And personal levels do not tow the line of the christian faith so you are venturing of the subject in hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

sXe isn't for everyone. Not every Christian is sXe. Not every Christian should be.

No christian should believe jesus to be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

I don't hate the alcoholic -- I hate the choices he makes.
But, like I said, on a personal level, Christ led me in a way that clearly pointed out, "Kiddo, you don't need to be near alcohol. It's not safe for you. Stay FAR away from it."

Quite conveniant that, i guess he also led you to a music scene that fundamentally incites sin and goes against the christian religion. You'll forgive me if i believe it to be a simple case of you trying to justify your life choices in order to continue to fit with christianity, i know its hard to accept when you are faced with a contradiction in your beliefs. If i were you i'd take some time to seriously question where you are at and why you want to cling to certain things but that will probably fal on deaf ears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

Soon thereafter, I found something awesome in straightedge living.
Each person has a personal relationship with Christ -- as in each relationship will be unique in its own manner.
You can't use logic and facts to argue with this -- the only way you could understand is through a first hand experience with Him.

So you agree its illogical. The point is you are simply contradicting jesus and condoning it by claiming that he has personally suggested your actions are his will. There is no argument for you to be right or wrong and anyone could claim other contradictory things to be the word of jesus on a personal level. "jesus told me its ok to do this or that" its all a very weak case and it still negates the accepted word of god, the bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

So, this argument all boils down to beliefs that I have that coincide -- I am not every Christian. I am me, a Christian, and I am unique in my path. A true Christian leads his own walk, and strives to be what God has in mind for him. And what God has in mind for me is to stay FAR away from alcohol in every sense, even if it can be beneficial to the health, it is unhealthly for me on a personal level.

Can you understand? It's not that hard to understand that.

Wow, your head has really been got at, the argument boils down to you saying now that the bible does not reflect gods will and that essentially you could ignore that book if god tells you its ok too. Seriously, straightedge and hardcore do not fit with christianity, perhaps you are happy to struggle to make it all fit in but it really means you are missing the point of it all. When you are happy to say your abstinance is condoned by god how does he feel about you being part of a scene that is very angry (sin) and speaks out against religion (sacrilegious) and openly contradicts many other facets of your religion. You are trying so hard to make this fit, i want to know why? What would happen if you decided to turn your back on christianity today, would it change a thing, you seem intent to follow whatever path you choose to anyway regardless, you have mastered the justification of things you wish to do that aren't inline with the religion.

Again. we aren't talking about wine having any health value, the fact is wine/alcohol is unhealthy for everyone, thats a straightedge point of view, being straightedge says the consumption of alcohol is wrong, thus it says jesus is wrong in doing so.

Perhaps you'd like to address the rest of the post before moving on instead of just taking snippets, because you are ignoring fundamental facts although i know your head isn't seeing things in facts it would be polite to do so.
04-19-2006, 12:55 PM
xriseupx

You're completely missing the point, as I expected you would.
You wouldn't understand unless you had been in my shoes, firsthand.
I am straightedge.
I am Christian.
The end.
04-19-2006, 12:57 PM
xsecx

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

You're completely missing the point, as I expected you would.
You wouldn't understand unless you had been in my shoes, firsthand.
I am straightedge.
I am Christian.
The end.

What point? You haven't actually addressed the issue or what people have said to you about it. You're a christian who thinks god is wrong.
04-19-2006, 01:02 PM
xriseupx

Haha, you're still missing the point. It's like there's this big blind spot you're not seeing.
I am straightedge by my choices and my actions, and my reasons.

BTW... I know that the scene is full of anger, and hardcore is an expression of that.
I am human. I am Christian. I am not, however, perfect.
Music is an excellent way to express anger. It works for me. Much better than brutalizing people (for those of you who are hardline)
So what? God acknowledges that we as humans have anger. I will express it through music, and I take part in the scene and love the anger of it. It's a perfect release.

Whatever, dude... I really don't care.
Being straightedge just helped me in my recovery -- it gave me something that was alternative and fitting for me. If it helps, why the fuck not?
Later. I'm done with this argument.
04-19-2006, 01:11 PM
xsecx

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

Haha, you're still missing the point. It's like there's this big blind spot you're not seeing.
I am straightedge by my choices and my actions, and my reasons.

BTW... I know that the scene is full of anger, and hardcore is an expression of that.
I am human. I am Christian. I am not, however, perfect.
Music is an excellent way to express anger. It works for me. Much better than brutalizing people (for those of you who are hardline)
So what? God acknowledges that we as humans have anger. I will express it through music, and I take part in the scene and love the anger of it. It's a perfect release.

Whatever, dude... I really don't care.
Being straightedge just helped me in my recovery -- it gave me something that was alternative and fitting for me. If it helps, why the fuck not?
Later. I'm done with this argument.

yeah clearly, we're the ones missing the point. Of course, I'm not really sure what your point is, since you keep saying one thing and then say something else that contradicts it. Christianity just simply doesn't belong within straight edge or within hardcore and when people can't actually address the issue that comes up they get frustrated and declare, especially in this case quite quickly, that they're done with the argument.
04-19-2006, 01:34 PM
straightXed

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

Haha, you're still missing the point. It's like there's this big blind spot you're not seeing.
I am straightedge by my choices and my actions, and my reasons.

no one said it wasn't your choice people are just pointing out that in doing so you are saying jesus is wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

BTW... I know that the scene is full of anger, and hardcore is an expression of that.
I am human. I am Christian. I am not, however, perfect.
Music is an excellent way to express anger. It works for me. Much better than brutalizing people (for those of you who are hardline)
So what? God acknowledges that we as humans have anger. I will express it through music, and I take part in the scene and love the anger of it. It's a perfect release.

God aslo acknowledges it as a sin and suggests you will go to hell for it, you are actively trying to be part of a load of stuff that negates fundamental points of your religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

Whatever, dude... I really don't care.

You don't care that you are contradicting yourself continuously by your very lifestyle choices. you don't care that theres a clear and concise argument made and you are happy to be ignorant to it. See i think you do care but you don't like addressing the facts, if you don't care about what is being discussed then why on earth are you posting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by xriseupx

Being straightedge just helped me in my recovery -- it gave me something that was alternative and fitting for me. If it helps, why the fuck not?
Later. I'm done with this argument.

Well people have continually posted "why the fuck not" yet you choose now to answer the question, and the whole thread is the reasons and answers to the question. Thanks for your input hopefully it will at least get you to look at your religion and beliefs a little more critically.

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page