Can You Be Christian And Straight Edge?

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Originally Posted by jim

How is this so far from straight edge?

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It doesn't mention hardcore, the reasons straightedge came around were different and were a reaction to a nihilistic attitude already present in the punk scene, it also reacted to the youthful immpresionism that invokes peer pressure.

Sex has nothing to do with straightedge and in fact we would need to define exactly what god meant as sexual immorality in order to make further discourse. But let it be said the idea of sex outside of marriage being a sin is hugely wrong for me and i'm sure many others hence why they engage in the activity.

There are fits of rage, anger and hatred present in hardcore music, this is a sin.

Straightedge doesn't make comment on eating meat, however perhaps if christianity says its not good christians should stop eating meat?

Straight edge and christianity are vastly different and to fit one to the other is a futile process.

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Originally Posted by straightXed

Ethos meant character, ethikos refered to ethical.

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The word ethical comes from the greek word ethikos. I'm talking about Aristotle's Rhetoric. You obviously don't understand that all the arguments you are making have nothing to do with any stance you have taken to actual good and evil. In a world without spiritual authority, there is no good and evil. Killing a person would not be evil because it would not be going against any established good. It may be wrong on a logical basis that one person doesn't have the right to take another's life, or wrong based on an emotional argument that said murder victim was emotionally attatched to others, but an athiest cannot claim to have beliefs that are based on the spiritual good and evil.

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but however you say that god has told you to not drink - thats a matter of your belief i don't really see how you have communicated with god but thats irrelevent.

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I'm not saying that God has told me to not drink. I'm saying that I have decided not to drink on a purely logical and emotional basis. There is no morality involved in that.

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But an athiest can believe things are morally wrong,

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No, an athiest can believe that things are logically wrong, or are wrong because they offend emotionally, but those arguments are not moral arguments.

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i mean if you are an athiest its because you think its right so it negates your idea straight away.

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Not at all. If you are an athiest, it is not because you believe it is right spiritually to be so. It is only because you are logically convinced that it is true. I still think that athiesm is incredibly silly. Most athiests deny that thier beliefs are based on faith, but no one has actually ever proven that no god exists. I have more respect for agnostics who understand that if It could actually be proven that God did not exist, we would all be athiests.

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No you don't you just have faith that it does.

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:) I know because I have faith

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It doesn't mention hardcore

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This is a much better argument against the combatibility of sXe and Christianity. The "Jesus drank" thing doesn't hold up.

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Straightedge doesn't make comment on eating meat, however perhaps if christianity says its not good christians should stop eating meat?

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The Bible says that it is good not to, it doesn't say it's wrong to eat meat.

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Originally Posted by jim

The word ethical comes from the greek word ethikos. I'm talking about Aristotle's Rhetoric.

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Except you clearly state that ethos refered to ethical when infact it refers to charcater and is the greek for character. Think before you post.

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Originally Posted by jim

You obviously don't understand that all the arguments you are making have nothing to do with any stance you have taken to actual good and evil. In a world without spiritual authority, there is no good and evil.

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Yers there is its just not spiritual but well done for ingnoring that point.

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Originally Posted by jim

Killing a person would not be evil because it would not be going against any established good.

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Yes it would be going against established good made by either societal expectations, such as human right infringement and law or by a personal more subjective slant. Again well done for ignoring that.

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Originally Posted by jim

It may be wrong on a logical basis that one person doesn't have the right to take another's life, or wrong based on an emotional argument that said murder victim was emotionally attatched to others, but an athiest cannot claim to have beliefs that are based on the spiritual good and evil.

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Good and evil isn't based only in spirituality, what you are caliming is that ethical good and evil are only apparent to christians or religious folk which is short sighted. And prooves you haven't understood that there are different ways to arrive at ethics and morals. Again, well done for be ignorant to this.

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Originally Posted by jim

I'm not saying that God has told me to not drink. I'm saying that I have decided not to drink on a purely logical and emotional basis. There is no morality involved in that.

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Are you telling me you can't think its morally wrong to have alcohol (with its major negative reprecussions and and influence in drink driving and drunken and domestic violence) as a legal part of society?

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Originally Posted by jim

No, an athiest can believe that things are logically wrong, or are wrong because they offend emotionally, but those arguments are not moral arguments.

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Thats because you don't know what morals an athiest has, are you saying i have no morals because i don't believe there is a god?

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Originally Posted by jim

Not at all. If you are an athiest, it is not because you believe it is right spiritually to be so.

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flawed because morals don't have to resemble spirituality.

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Originally Posted by jim

It is only because you are logically convinced that it is true. I still think that athiesm is incredibly silly.

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No, you need to understand that a moral can equate to a personal principle. And its hardly supprising that a guy blinded by his own faith things athiesm is silly especially when he can't even understand that morals and ethics live outside of spirituality.

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Originally Posted by jim

Most athiests deny that thier beliefs are based on faith, but no one has actually ever proven that no god exists.

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Well that would depend on your definition of faith, for instance "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing" is faith, however the idea that you have faith in something that is not proven shows something else, that whilst an athiest will state there is no god to believe you will state there is and firther more go on to follow a large structured religion based on that. your faith is the theological virtue defined as secure belief in god and a trusting acceptance of god's will. So when both an athiest and a christian are basing their beliefs on trust and confidence in the unknown how can an athiest be without faith? Its just placed elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by jim

I have more respect for agnostics who understand that if It could actually be proven that God did not exist, we would all be athiests.

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Well personally i see the evidence stacked slightly more in the favour of athiests myself but i tend not to trouble a great deal of my time deliberating over something which will be revealed on my death. I'm not going to spend my live in fear of something that is so unsure and based on such shoddy ideas because i think that the idea of christianity is somewhat morally wrong at least in todays world.

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Originally Posted by jim

:) I know because I have faith

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well done for missing all the points raised in my post but at least you agree you don't have an absoloute truth because faith in one doesn't constitute it being absoloute.

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Originally Posted by jim

This is a much better argument against the combatibility of sXe and Christianity. The "Jesus drank" thing doesn't hold up.

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it does hold up if you are saying that jesus is wrong and that you shouldn't drink.

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Originally Posted by jim

The Bible says that it is good not to, it doesn't say it's wrong to eat meat.

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The bible says you should be good, if this is a description of a good act why aren't you doing it? But it still has nothing to do with being straightedge.

And thanks again for being incomplete in your responses.

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Originally Posted by xMoranXArmyx

lol...there's a difference between a Christian telling a Christian how to live his/her life and a fuckin non-christian telling a christian how he/she should live life.

but no, i'm not an authoritarian either, and if you are gonna continue to argue with me, you will not break new ground. it's a lost cause. i'll just leave this forum, never to bother you guys again. However, i will say that this forum is extremely un-helpful. lol...what a crock of shit. to those in here who have been helpful, thank you. its sXe assholes that discourage people in society to go edge for fear they might be rejected and made fun of.

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Who the fuck are you as a christian to tell another christian how to live thier life. There is NO diffrence.

Being Christian and edge is a possibility. Especially if straight edge for you is a choice made for one's self and not a choice made for everyone else in the world.

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Originally Posted by xdoylex

Being Christian and edge is a possibility. Especially if straight edge for you is a choice made for one's self and not a choice made for everyone else in the world.

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nope. and nope. Unless you want to explain to me how straight edge talks about drinking in moderation being a good idea. Lyrics, zines, etc. That the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone didn't drink. Straight edge is an extreme stance. It's something that happens when someone feels strongly about a subject. If you didn't you wouldn't allign yourself with a group that is so blatantly and unapologetically anti-alcohol, tobacco and drugs.

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Originally Posted by xsecx

nope. and nope. Unless you want to explain to me how straight edge talks about drinking in moderation being a good idea. Lyrics, zines, etc. That the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone didn't drink. Straight edge is an extreme stance. It's something that happens when someone feels strongly about a subject. If you didn't you wouldn't allign yourself with a group that is so blatantly and unapologetically anti-alcohol, tobacco and drugs.

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I do take a stand on those things. I don't hang out with people if they make fucked up choices around me and I tell them exactly what i think about that shit. Especially, lately, I've seen alot of people who used to be edge sell out and start smoking pot and stupid shit like that just because the scene isn't has active locally any more because we had a couple venues close down.

sXe is still alive and kicking in me because I know what I stand for. And you can bet your ass i dont apologize for it.

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Originally Posted by xdoylex

I do take a stand on those things. I don't hang out with people if they make fucked up choices around me and I tell them exactly what i think about that shit. Especially, lately, I've seen alot of people who used to be edge sell out and start smoking pot and stupid shit like that just because the scene isn't has active locally any more because we had a couple venues close down.

sXe is still alive and kicking in me because I know what I stand for. And you can bet your ass i dont apologize for it.

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so you think jesus was wrong and you'd take a stand against him about it?

If you want to get technical about this issue of Christ drinking wine, there are a few things you might want to consider...
Red wine was the only chosen drink of Christ or any of His disciples... The alcohol content of this wine was dramatically lower than the content of today's wine, and... Physiologically speaking, very moderate wine drinking is actually quite healthy. It provides lots of antioxidants to your body, and is very healthy for your heart. It's also a very cleansing drink.
Now, for me... I cannot safely drink any type of wine. My personality doesn't mix with it -- but this whole, "Jesus drank wine" as some form of contradiction or life choice that does not coincide with sXe lifestyle is actually not founded in anything factual...
Now, to finish this topic... Most hardcore sXe people seem to have a problem with Christians due to Christians using God as some crutch in their lives... Like a drug -- to say that in times of stress or less, Christians weakly rely on God -- the more the stress, the more God they need -- just like a drug, thus... Fucking your head up.
This makes sense -- and is actually true in a lot of cases, but a *true* Christian isn't like this.
A true Christian loves and embraces God no matter the circumstances, and does not use God as some crutch.

You can be a Straightedge Christian...

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Originally Posted by xriseupx

If you want to get technical about this issue of Christ drinking wine, there are a few things you might want to consider...
Red wine was the only chosen drink of Christ or any of His disciples... The alcohol content of this wine was dramatically lower than the content of today's wine, and... Physiologically speaking, very moderate wine drinking is actually quite healthy. It provides lots of antioxidants to your body, and is very healthy for your heart. It's also a very cleansing drink.
Now, for me... I cannot safely drink any type of wine. My personality doesn't mix with it -- but this whole, "Jesus drank wine" as some form of contradiction or life choice that does not coincide with sXe lifestyle is actually not founded in anything factual...

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your statement is wrong. John the baptist didn't drink alcohol. Now, how is jesus drinking wine and someone who's straight edge who believes that drinking wine isn't contradictory? You're still saying your god is wrong.

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Now, to finish this topic... Most hardcore sXe people seem to have a problem with Christians due to Christians using God as some crutch in their lives... Like a drug -- to say that in times of stress or less, Christians weakly rely on God -- the more the stress, the more God they need -- just like a drug, thus... Fucking your head up.
This makes sense -- and is actually true in a lot of cases, but a *true* Christian isn't like this.
A true Christian loves and embraces God no matter the circumstances, and does not use God as some crutch.

You can be a Straightedge Christian...

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A true christian also wouldn't disagree with god or think they can be right about something and god can be wrong.

Alright, I’ll totally level with all of you. I haven’t read all of the posts. I got bored after the first six pages, and had many thoughts of my own. I’ve read the last several to make sure the argument hasn’t changed, and it doesn’t appear to have done so. So here’s me, and this is what I think.

I’m SxE. I’m published in my views on this, and though it’s only a college newspaper, my community knows where I stand. I’m much hated for it, as my community is rumored to have the second highest alcohol consumption per capita in the world. It may not be true, but that rumor does float around, and the community is terrible for it. Anyways…

I’m not a Christian. I believe in a god and I don’t hold with religions. That’s a book’s worth of explanations itself. However, in my opinion, it’s perfectly logical that one could be Christian and Straight Edge. I’ve read what I think is the working argument, and I know this is already making you all jump up and down, but give me a few minutes before you jump all over me and hear me out.

Ok, so what I’ve seen as the base argument is that one cannot follow Jesus (for he imbibed alcohol, though it never directly says that either, but that is what’s being assumed) and be SxE. But because one follows someone, must they in turn be responsible for all of that person’s shortcomings? Must they be a direct translation of that person? I’d hope not, because as much as I’ve personally tried in my foolish youth, I’ve learned nothing if not that becoming someone else totally is impossible.

And these people aren’t trying. Being Christian does not mean trying to become Christ. That would be nuts. My understanding is of course limited, so I’ll admit it, I could be wrong. But this is what I see, and this is how I live SxE.

While being Straight Edge has a lot to do with ideas, it’s actions that count. As far as SxE and religion go, so long as one’s religious practice does not cause them to violate the ideals of Straight Edge, they are in fact both. Now, I realize that some Christianity does require the consumption of wine in communion and The Lord’s Supper and that stuff, and that wouldn’t be acceptable. One would have to choose. If I were in that position, I’d seriously question my faith. So I see where those that say no are coming from, and that much makes sense.

However, I’m quite bothered by the fact that several of the previously cited group infer that to be Straight Edge, one must hate and disrespect non-members. That is bogus. To be Straight Edge is to live and think a certain way, regardless of those around you, and to let your community know where you stand, as well as advocate the position you hold. I’ve seen nothing that tells me to hate others. I realize that SxE isn’t about acceptance either, and I’ve never said it was. I don’t accept what others do into my own life, but I can’t change them, and I can’t hate them for it. People are human, a handicap we ALL share, and everyone has their vices.

An example in my life would be my mentor. He is one of the wisest men I’ve ever known, and I esteem him beyond most men living. To my deep sorrow, he drinks on slight occasion, and while it occurs less times in a year than I have fingers on my hands, it still bothers me. I’m not defending him, and I disagree with what he does. He knows that, and respects me for my belief. I respect him enough to leave him to his. I see him as my role model, though I omit that part of his life from mine. I’m still SxE; I still hold to my beliefs, practice them, and advocate them to my community. I keep my body pure, to the point of obsession. That, alas, in yet another story, and I digress.

Sadly, not all of my friends follow me in my SxE beliefs. I still love them. I don’t like what they do, and they know that, but I don’t hate them for it. I abstain, keep myself pure, and practice and advocate my beliefs. I say this with great fervor, not because I believe that SxE is about acceptance, but because I don’t believe the word hardcore equals hate or disrespect. I say this because of the hatred I’ve received from my family and community, the lack of respect for our cause because of the hatred of SxE members in my town, and in respect for the Buddhist monks that really define hardcore.

There, I’m done. Say what you like.

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Originally Posted by xriseupx

If you want to get technical about this issue of Christ drinking wine, there are a few things you might want to consider...
Red wine was the only chosen drink of Christ or any of His disciples... The alcohol content of this wine was dramatically lower than the content of today's wine, and... Physiologically speaking, very moderate wine drinking is actually quite healthy. It provides lots of antioxidants to your body, and is very healthy for your heart. It's also a very cleansing drink.

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It doesn't matter that wine can provide antioxidants. There are lots of non alcoholic items that provide the same antioxidants and give the same benifit to the human heart, what does matter is that it is an alcoholic drink that is drank recreationally and thus goes completely against what straightedge stands for.

So are you saying a lower ammount of alcohol is ok? What volume of alcohol is ok?

The fact that jesus is saying wine is ok and straightedge says its really not ok at all does tend to put you in a position of either saying jesus is wrong or trying to claim straightedge and drink wine. But then you get on to all the other reasons why strtaightedge and christianity don't fit.

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Originally Posted by xriseupx

Now, for me... I cannot safely drink any type of wine. My personality doesn't mix with it -- but this whole, "Jesus drank wine" as some form of contradiction or life choice that does not coincide with sXe lifestyle is actually not founded in anything factual...

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So you are saying the bible isn't factual, thats fine i agree but a christian believes jesus and his actions to be right and true, where as a straightedge kid believes the consumption of wine to be wrong so say hello to the contradiction that doesn't coincide. Straightedge kids think jesus's actions are wrong, to claim to be christian there after would mean you are claiming to be christian even though you believe his actions were wrong. It unravels the core premise of the religion.

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Originally Posted by xriseupx

Now, to finish this topic... Most hardcore sXe people seem to have a problem with Christians due to Christians using God as some crutch in their lives... Like a drug -- to say that in times of stress or less, Christians weakly rely on God -- the more the stress, the more God they need -- just like a drug, thus... Fucking your head up.
This makes sense -- and is actually true in a lot of cases, but a *true* Christian isn't like this.
A true Christian loves and embraces God no matter the circumstances, and does not use God as some crutch.

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Well the religion is based on providing a crutch based on its coercive teachings, and they teach you to embrace god fully. This is crutch like and people rely on there faith to see the world in a "better" way, they use the idea of heaven as an incentive to put worth into their life, the teachings of christ give direction to how they should live. They have this ambiguous god to put in place of all the unanswerable questions and to show some kind of psuedo illumination to the fear of the unknown which is comforting and crutch like. It answers the questions it knows you will ask at your most vunerable and gives you an answer which you want to hear, its well designed although a rather archaic control method for todays world. Its not so much weakness as a natural reaction to have these feelings but to allieviate them with religion does make religion crutch like, its designed to do just that and gives you this sense of being on the right and true path. And you can embrace it completely no matter what and its still a crutch, its still a structure that people rely on to resolve equivocal spiritual matters. However i don't believe thats the main problem at all.

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Originally Posted by xriseupx

You can be a Straightedge Christian...

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No, you can't. Jesus drank wine, is jesus wrong?

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Originally Posted by Raeus

Ok, so what I’ve seen as the base argument is that one cannot follow Jesus (for he imbibed alcohol, though it never directly says that either, but that is what’s being assumed) and be SxE. But because one follows someone, must they in turn be responsible for all of that person’s shortcomings? Must they be a direct translation of that person? I’d hope not, because as much as I’ve personally tried in my foolish youth, I’ve learned nothing if not that becoming someone else totally is impossible.

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no that's not the base argument at all. you also just said that jesus had short comings, which he can't if he's divine. The actual base argument is that if you are jesus you can't disagree with or believe/think/act as though you are right and he is wrong.

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And these people aren’t trying. Being Christian does not mean trying to become Christ. That would be nuts. My understanding is of course limited, so I’ll admit it, I could be wrong. But this is what I see, and this is how I live SxE.

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but being christian does mean accepting that jesus was divine and all of his actions were correct, just and should be the basis of all of your thoughts on anything, since he was, well, perfect.

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While being Straight Edge has a lot to do with ideas, it’s actions that count. As far as SxE and religion go, so long as one’s religious practice does not cause them to violate the ideals of Straight Edge, they are in fact both. Now, I realize that some Christianity does require the consumption of wine in communion and The Lord’s Supper and that stuff, and that wouldn’t be acceptable. One would have to choose. If I were in that position, I’d seriously question my faith. So I see where those that say no are coming from, and that much makes sense.

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It's not all religion that's the issue. It's one specific one, with one specific set of beliefs that are actually counter straight edge.

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However, I’m quite bothered by the fact that several of the previously cited group infer that to be Straight Edge, one must hate and disrespect non-members. That is bogus. To be Straight Edge is to live and think a certain way, regardless of those around you, and to let your community know where you stand, as well as advocate the position you hold. I’ve seen nothing that tells me to hate others. I realize that SxE isn’t about acceptance either, and I’ve never said it was. I don’t accept what others do into my own life, but I can’t change them, and I can’t hate them for it. People are human, a handicap we ALL share, and everyone has their vices.

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Where did anyone say that "one must hate and disrespect non-members"?