it is if you say drinking is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by collin
Printable View
it is if you say drinking is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by collin
no, not really. here we go again.....Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
ok. so how is it not really? your god drinks and makes alcoholic wine for others. you say that drinking is wrong. how is that not defying god and putting yourself above god? Do you kids seriously not understand that by disagreeing with anything your god says or did you are saying that you know better than god?Quote:
Originally Posted by collin
no we're not, we're just exercising the freewill he gave us. where is the evidence that it was alcoholic?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Nothing is going to be solved by this debate, neither of you will change your minds...why not just stop wasting each others time?
the freewill just gives you the ability to make choices, it doesn't give you an excuse to defy god. The fact that you don't even recognize the arrogance that you could be right about something that god isn't is amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by collin
the original words used to describe the event at galea was oinos which was alcoholic. The jews did and still do drink alcoholic wine at passover. Jesus used himself as an example of someone who drank alcohol and John the Baptist as someone who doesn't. So where is the evidence that it wasn't alcoholic?
peoples minds get changed all the time. If you don't want to read it, then don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by mouseman004
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Is yours going to change?
if someone could actually make a decent argument, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by mouseman004
Moderationists view Christ’s miraculous transformation of water into wine at the wedding of Cana as primary evidence of Jesus’ sanctioning the use of alcoholic beverages. They argue that if Jesus produced between 120 and 160 gallons of high-quality alcoholic wine for the wedding party and guests at Cana, it is evident that He approved of its use in moderation.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
The belief that the wine Christ provided in Cana was alcoholic rests on five major assumptions. First, it is assumed that the word oinos "wine" indicates only "fermented-quality grape drink, i.e. wine."5 Second, it is assumed that since the word oinos "wine" is used in reference both to the wine which ran out and the wine that Christ made, both wines must have been alcoholic. Third, it is assumed that the Jews did not know how to prevent the fermentation of grape juice; and since, as argued by William Hendriksen, the season of the wedding was just before Spring Passover (cf. John 2:13), that is, six months after the grape harvest, the wine used at Cana had ample time to ferment.6 Fourth, it is assumed that the description given by the master of the banquet to the wine provided by Christ as "the good wine" means a high-quality alcoholic wine.7 Fifth, it is assumed that the expression "well drunk" (John 2:10) used by the master of the banquet indicates that the guests were intoxicated because they had been drinking fermented wine. Consequently, the wine Jesus made must also have been fermented.8 In view of the importance these assumptions play in determining the nature of the wine provided by Christ, we shall examine each of them briefly in the order given.
The Meaning of Oinos. The popular assumption that both in secular and Biblical Greek the word oinos meant fermented grape juice exclusively was examined at great length in Chapter 2. We submitted numerous examples from both pagan and Christian authors who used the Greek word oinos referring both to fermented and unfermented grape juice. We also noticed that oinos is used at least 33 times in the Septuagint to translate tirosh, the Hebrew word for grape juice.
A better acquaintance with the use of the word "wine," not only in the Greek language, but also in old English, Latin and Hebrew, would have saved scholars from falling into the mistaken conclusion that oinos means only fermented wine. The truth of the matter is, as we have shown, that oinos is a generic term, including all kinds of wine, unfermented and fermented, like yayin in Hebrew and vinum in Latin. Thus the fact that the wine made by Christ at Cana is called oinos, offers no ground for concluding that it was fermented wine. Its nature must be determined by internal evidence and moral likelihood. The record of the evangelist, as we shall see, affords information for determining this question.
Is Oinos Always Alcoholic? The second assumption, that both the wine that ran out and the wine Jesus made were alcoholic, depends largely upon the first assumption, namely, that the word oinos means exclusively alcoholic wine. As stated by Kenneth L. Gentry, "The word oinos is used in reference to both wines in question. It has been shown that this word indicates fermented-quality grape drink, i.e. wine."9
This assumption is discredited by two facts. First, as mentioned earlier, the word oinos is a generic term referring either to fermented or to unfermented wine. Thus the fact that the same word oinos is used for both wines in question does not necessitate that both wines be alcoholic. In his booklet Christ, the Apostles and Wine, Ernest Gordon responds in a similar vein to the same assumption, saying: "To the objection that the word oinos, wine, is used both for the intoxicating wine of the feast and the wine Christ made, and hence that both must have been intoxicating, one can quote Abbott, Dictionary of Religious Knowledge, ‘It is tolerably clear that the word wine does not necessarily imply fermented liquor. It signifies only a production of the vine.’ The eminent Hellenist, Sir Richard Jebb, former Professor of Greek at the University of Cambridge, declared oinos "a general term which might include all kinds of beverages."10
Second, the wine provided by Christ is differentiated from the other by being characterized as ton kalon, "the good" wine. This suggests that the two wines were not identical. The nature of the difference between the two wines will be discussed below.
Preservation of Grape Juice. The third assumption, that it would have been impossible to supply unfermented grape juice for a Spring time wedding about six months after vintage, rests on the assumption that the technology for preserving grape juice unfermented was unknown at the time.
The latter assumption is clearly discredited by numerous testimonies from the Roman world of New Testament times describing various methods for preserving grape juice. We have seen in Chapter 4 that the preservation of grape juice was in some ways a simpler process than the preservation of fermented wine. Thus, the possibility existed at the wedding of Cana to supply unfermented grape juice near the Passover season, since such a beverage could be kept unfermented throughout the year.
"High-Quality Alcoholic Wine." The fourth assumption is that the wine Jesus provided was pronounced "the good wine" (John 2:10) by the master of the banquet, because it was high in alcoholic content. Such an assumption is based on twentieth-century tastes.
Albert Barnes, a well-known New Testament scholar and commentator, warns in his comment on John 2:10 not to "be deceived by the phrase ‘good wine.’" The reason, he explains, is that "We use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength, and its power to intoxicate. But no such sense is to be attached to the word here."11
We noted in Chapter 4 that in the Roman world of New Testament times, the best wines were those whose alcoholic potency had been removed by boiling or filtration. Pliny, for example, says that "wines are most beneficial (utilissimum) when all their potency has been removed by the strainer."12 Similarly, Plutarch points out that wine is "much more pleasant to drink" when it "neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions"13 because its strength has been removed through frequent filtering.
Referring to some of the same ancient authors, Barnes says: "Pliny, Plutarch and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine which was harmless or innocent—poculis vini innocentis. The most useful wine—utilissimum vinum—was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine—saluberrimum vinum—was that which had not been adulterated by ‘the addition of anything to the must or juice.’ Pliny expressly says that a ‘good wine’ was one that was destitute of spirit. Lib iv. c.13. It should not be assumed, therefore, that the ‘good wine’ was stronger than the other. It is rather to be presumed that it was milder. That would be the best wine certainly. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine; nor drugged wine; nor wine compounded of various substances such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape."14
The wine Christ made was of high quality, not because of its alcohol content, but because, as Henry Morris explains, it was "new wine, freshly created! It was not old, decayed wine, as it would have to be if it were intoxicating. There was no time for the fermentation process to break down the structure of its energy-giving sugars into disintegrative alcohols. It thus was a fitting representation of His glory and was appropriate to serve as the very first of His great miracles (John 2:11)."15
Quote:
Originally Posted by collin
and this isn't proof but an attempt to ignore history and tradition and try and apply modern feelings on alcohol to the past.
The fact is, jews drank wine. Jews drank wine at passover then, jews drank wine at passover now. Jesus made a point of distinguishing himself from John the Baptist, who didn't drink. If Jesus didn't drink alcohol, why would he do this?Quote:
Did Jesus Make Wine or Grape Juice?
By Rev. Sam Harris
Question: Our church is very strong against drinking in any form, and I don’t drink—
mostly because of what I have seen when alcohol destroyed several members of my family
and a marriage. But I also concur with my church’s stand. Our preacher recently preached
on the passage in John 2:1-12 where Jesus performed His first miracle at Cana—turning
water into wine. He stated that Jesus actually turned the water into grape juice. My pastor
uses the New King James Version, and the word “wine” is used in this passage. I’m confused;
what is the real truth here?
Answer: Thanks for the question; it’s a “horse” that has been ridden many times. This
miracle was never meant to emphasize the water into wine, but to demonstrate the awesome
power and deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. As you read through the Gospel of John, all
of the miracles focus attention on Christ’s deity.
As Christians, we should all be most concerned about the abuse of alcohol. There are
very few families that have not been torn apart by alcohol. Working now in a trauma one
emergency department, I have seen first hand the results of alcohol abuse—often causing
serious physical disabilities and even death. Alcoholism is a serious problem that must be
addressed!
Now, did Jesus turn water into wine or grape juice? According to the Greek text, the word
used here is oinos, a wine derived from grapes; there is no evidence that wine is to be
translated “grape juice.”
If you go back into the Old Testament, you find that wine was a symbol of joy and blessing.
Psalm 104:15: “And wine which makes the heart glad, so that he may make his face
glisten with oil, and food which sustains a man’s heart.” Wine was used as a part of the
offering to God (Exodus 29:40). We also know that wine was drunk at feasts, look at 1
Samuel 25:18. Paul recommended to Timothy that a little wine was good for the stomach
and your frequent ailments (1 Timothy 5: 23). Notice that Paul uses the word “little” here.
[Matt. 11:18,19:] "John came neither eating nor drinking, and they
say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and
they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a wine-bibber, a friend of
publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
how much time do you guys spend looking up all this stuff? its impressive
most of this stuff I have off the top of my head at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by XshiXnyX
Thats crazy =P
lets put it this way. at the end of the day no matter what you say iam going to proclaim iam edge no matter what i say you are to. we arent going to change each others minds no one can make a arguement that will do that. it seems the ones that stick to being the same are just to damn hard headed.