Can You Be Christian And Straight Edge?

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Originally Posted by Emily852

no? In the bible it said Jesus took his blood and told his deciples to drink it.
That was then. Today the church just carries on that tradition in a symbolic sense. They did it on their own. It's not a sin if you don't drink it.

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it wasn't blood, it was wine. It was wine at the wedding in cana. It is a sin to think that god is wrong. If you think the consumption of alcohol is wrong, it's in direct conflict with the teachings and actions of jesus.

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Originally Posted by CarlaRant

I've been staying out of this thread for personal reasons, but the last post made me curious. So I went to my bible (New International Version) to look up the Lord's Supper which everyone is talking about (Matthew 26:17-30) because I don't think that the cup that was passed the dinner table was Jesus's actual blood, but wine used as a symbol; thus the argument on this site.

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, 'Take and eat; this is my body.'"

"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sings. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.'"

I thought line 29 was very interesting, stating that Jesus would drink "the fruit of the vine" (wine) until the disciples meet him in his father's kingdom; which could be interpreted as heaven or as some fundamental Christians claim, the second coming. So then could the argument be that it would be wise to not drink wine until humanity sees Jesus again? Christians are just followers of Jesus; he sets the example.

I know that the core of the argument here is if we as individuals claiming straightedge believe that drinking is wrong. And if so, does that belief fly in the face of Jesus's actions? Again, I think this all boils down to interpretation of both the bible and the straightedge lifestyle and ideology. I don't think drinking in moderation is wrong, but it's obviously not the best choice for me.

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You also have to take into account the wedding at cana. The simple fact of the matter is that jesus had no problem or issue with the consumption of alcohol. This really isn't up to interpretation or argument. I also completely fail to understand how someone can be straight edge and not think that drinking alcohol is wrong. There's a difference between accepting the choices of others and believing that they are positive and something that should be encouraged. I couldn't imagine anyone who calls themselves straight edge honestly believing that the world wouldn't be a better place if there was no alcohol.

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Originally Posted by xsecx

it wasn't blood, it was wine. It was wine at the wedding in cana. It is a sin to think that god is wrong. If you think the consumption of alcohol is wrong, it's in direct conflict with the teachings and actions of jesus.

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Forst of all, Mark 14:23 says "Then he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it and gave it to them, "This is my blood, poured out for many, sealing the new agreement between God and man."'

I'm not judging god on why he used wine but I certainly don't think it was to get everyone drunk.

You can think whatever you want but I seriously think your mind is fucked up becase religion isn't politics. It's really not about all the things you do wrong.


I don't even think you got the point where I said you can even be friends with people who drink occasionally and it doesnt mean you're condoning or encouraging it. It kind of ties into the whole "but Jesus did alcohol" thing. You can keep trying to twist it and make it look like it's disagreeing with him or turning your back on him or whatever, and it's not any form of sin by not liking alcohol and not drinking it. And that doesn't go against any "rules" of straightedge.

It doesn't say anywhere that it's a sin thinking God is wrong but it does say you're a fool if you don't follow his word and I'm not breaking any word when it comes to being straightedge. I don't know what you think blasphemy is....but it's turning your back on God. Being straightedge and not liking alcohol is not blasphemy in your little dramatic mind.

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Originally Posted by Emily852

Forst of all, Mark 14:23 says "Then he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it and gave it to them, "This is my blood, poured out for many, sealing the new agreement between God and man."'

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that doesn't make it blood, it was symbolic, even if you want think that it was, then focus on the wedding at cana where he gave alcohol to people who were already drunk.

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I'm not judging god on why he used wine but I certainly don't think it was to get everyone drunk.

You can think whatever you want but I seriously think your mind is fucked up becase religion isn't politics. It's really not about all the things you do wrong.

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So you think that the consumption of alcohol is fine and something you should do? I also don't really understand why you think my mind is fucked up? Religion is about beliefs and living in accordance to those beliefs. The entire point of this thread is that there are very real conflicts between 2 sets of beliefs. 1 set believes that drinking is wrong. 1 set believes that it isn't.

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I don't even think you got the point where I said you can even be friends with people who drink occasionally and it doesnt mean you're condoning or encouraging it. It kind of ties into the whole "but Jesus did alcohol" thing. You can keep trying to twist it and make it look like it's disagreeing with him or turning your back on him or whatever, and it's not any form of sin by not liking alcohol and not drinking it. And that doesn't go against any "rules" of straightedge.

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No, I got the point, it's just not relevant. You don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in god. Take alcohol, homosexuality, moral veganism. If your views differ from that of god, then you're guilty of the sin of blasphemy. You saying that it isn't a sin, doesn't really mean anything.

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It doesn't say anywhere that it's a sin thinking God is wrong but it does say you're a fool if you don't follow his word and I'm not breaking any word when it comes to being straightedge. I don't know what you think blasphemy is....but it's turning your back on God. Being straightedge and not liking alcohol is not blasphemy in your little dramatic mind.

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Main Entry:
blas·phe·my Listen to the pronunciation of blasphemy
Pronunciation:
\ˈblas-fə-mē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural blas·phe·mies
Date:
13th century

1 a: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God

Thinking god is wrong, is in fact showing a lack of reverence for god and is insulting. I don't think you understand what blasphemy is and I get the feeling that you're one of those christians that just ignore the parts of the bible you don't agree with rather than coming to terms with the fact that it's a flawed book and a flawed religion. I just find it hilarious that people think that they're good pious christians but then talk about how god is wrong. The fact that you think your god can be wrong, your omniscient all powerful god is wrong, speaks volumes on what your actual beliefs are and what they're based on.

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Originally Posted by xsecx

that doesn't make it blood, it was symbolic, even if you want think that it was, then focus on the wedding at cana where he gave alcohol to people who were already drunk.

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It doesn't say anywhere that the people got drunk or that they were already drunk

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Originally Posted by xsecx

Religion is about beliefs and living in accordance to those beliefs. The entire point of this thread is that there are very real conflicts between 2 sets of beliefs. 1 set believes that drinking is wrong. 1 set believes that it isn't.

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Christianity isn't entirely made up of 1 belief that "drinking is okay" and that's not what it's based on.

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Originally Posted by xsecx

You don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in god.

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I understand clearly...

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Originally Posted by xsecx

Take alcohol, homosexuality, moral veganism. If your views differ from that of god, then you're guilty of the sin of blasphemy. You saying that it isn't a sin, doesn't really mean anything.

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I'm not commiting any of those, except the "moral veganism". I do find it wrong to mistreat animals and I barely eat meat anyways because it isn't healthy for you. I don't own anything made from real leather. I try to make sure all my cosmetics don't do testing on animals. So I don't know where you're getting that idea from.

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Originally Posted by xsecx

Main Entry:
blas·phe·my Listen to the pronunciation of blasphemy
Pronunciation:
\ˈblas-fə-mē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural blas·phe·mies
Date:
13th century
1 a: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
Thinking god is wrong, is in fact showing a lack of reverence for god and is insulting.

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I never said I think God is wrong.......so really......how is it relevant then. He used wine before. So what. I never drank any. And I don't plan on it.

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Originally Posted by Emily852

It doesn't say anywhere that the people got drunk or that they were already drunk

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the well drunk part of the scripture. It's kind of insane to think that people had wine flowing at a wedding and that people wouldn't get drunk.

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Christianity isn't entirely made up of 1 belief that "drinking is okay" and that's not what it's based on.

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entirely or not, it's based on the infallibility of god. in christianity drinking is encouraged and was an activity done by your god. in straight edge, drinking is discouraged and something not done by anyone who is straight edge. these beliefs contradict each other.

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I understand clearly...

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then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about.

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I'm not commiting any of those, except the "moral veganism". I do find it wrong to mistreat animals and I barely eat meat anyways because it isn't healthy for you. I don't own anything made from real leather. I try to make sure all my cosmetics don't do testing on animals. So I don't know where you're getting that idea from.

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so you don't disagree with the view of god at all then? I was using those as exampled. the problem of blasphemy exists if for instance, you don't have an issue with homosexuality, if you have an issue with the eating of animals, etc. The problem exists way beyond just straight edge. The morality of christianity doesn't change with time, while the morality of humanity does.

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I never said I think God is wrong.......so really......how is it relevant then. He used wine before. So what. I never drank any. And I don't plan on it.

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No, you just act like you think he's wrong. Since you ignored the rest of my post and didn't refute it, I'm guessing I hit the nail on the head, so what else do you simply ignore because it doesn't fit your world view?

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Originally Posted by xsecx

the well drunk part of the scripture.

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what?

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Originally Posted by xsecx

It's kind of insane to think that people had wine flowing at a wedding and that people wouldn't get drunk.

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have you ever been to a formal event? it is possible for people to not get drunk.

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Originally Posted by xsecx

in christianity drinking is encouraged and was an activity done by your god. in straight edge, drinking is discouraged and something not done by anyone who is straight edge. these beliefs contradict each other.

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just because it's encouraged doesn't mean it's a sin if you don't do it. it says 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."
All the quotes in the bible that encourage drinking wine etc etc are all in the old testement anyways. If you follow only the old testement, you're jewish. There are no quotes in the bible in the new testement encouraging drinking. There's only examples of Jesus making wine. But back to what I said of that corinthians quote. So it's not a problem.

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Originally Posted by xsecx

then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about.

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you said "you don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in God" and I said "I understand clearly...." and then you said "then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about." What???

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Originally Posted by xsecx

so you don't disagree with the view of god at all then? I was using those as exampled. the problem of blasphemy exists if for instance, you don't have an issue with homosexuality, if you have an issue with the eating of animals, etc. The problem exists way beyond just straight edge. The morality of christianity doesn't change with time, while the morality of humanity does.

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If the problem exists way beyond straight edge then what's this have to do with straight edge anymore then???

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Originally Posted by xsecx

No, you just act like you think he's wrong. Since you ignored the rest of my post and didn't refute it, I'm guessing I hit the nail on the head, so what else do you simply ignore because it doesn't fit your world view?

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I don't think he's wrong, and I never said I think he's wrong. I think I'm wrong to drink it and i have "permission" to think I'd be wrong to drink it because of 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."


There's no issue with being straight edge and christian

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Originally Posted by Emily852

what?

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john 2 , 1-11
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1 On the third day there was a wedding 2 in Cana 3 in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
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Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.
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When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."
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4 (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come."
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His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."
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5 Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons.
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Jesus told them, "Fill the jars with water." So they filled them to the brim.
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Then he told them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." 6 So they took it.
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And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom
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and said to him, "Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now."
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Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs 7 in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.

folks were already drunk or at least well on their way when jesus turned the water to wine.

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have you ever been to a formal event? it is possible for people to not get drunk.

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I have, and thats why I know that if people are drinking wine to celebrate, and you add something like 180 gallons of wine to it, that people are going to get shitfaced, it's what people do. If you don't want to get drunk at all, you don't drink wine.

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just because it's encouraged doesn't mean it's a sin if you don't do it. it says 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."
All the quotes in the bible that encourage drinking wine etc etc are all in the old testement anyways. If you follow only the old testement, you're jewish. There are no quotes in the bible in the new testement encouraging drinking. There's only examples of Jesus making wine. But back to what I said of that corinthians quote. So it's not a problem.

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It's these statements that prove to me that you don't get it and are fixated on the wrong thing. The sin isn't not doing it. The sin is believing that the act is wrong and therefore thinking jesus is wrong. The wedding at cana wasn't in the old testament. The last supper wasn't in the old testament. I mean shit, people were drunk at the last supper. 1 Cor. 11:21.

1 cor 6. Your understanding of scripture is suspect. You're picking passages and a reallly weird translation out of context and trying to use it out of context to justify your position.


12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined [4] to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin [5] a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

this passage has nothing to do with that, but instead is talking sexual morality.

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you said "you don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in God" and I said "I understand clearly...." and then you said "then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about." What???

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You kept bringing up not having a problem with people drinking moderately, which continues to lead me to believe that you don't understand what is being talked about here.

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If the problem exists way beyond straight edge then what's this have to do with straight edge anymore then???

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just because the problem exists in more than just straight edge, doesn't mean it doesn't have anything to do with straight edge.

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I don't think he's wrong, and I never said I think he's wrong. I think I'm wrong to drink it and i have "permission" to think I'd be wrong to drink it because of 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."

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You think the act of drinking alcohol is wrong. And again, your grasp of scripture is comically bad.

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There's no issue with being straight edge and christian

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if you say it enough times, that won't change the facts. see you in hell!

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Originally Posted by Emily852

what?

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holy shit, you have a paraphrased bible called the living bible. no wonder you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and have a fucked up idea of what the scripture says, you're not even familiar with the source, but a bad interpretation of the source that was so bad that the dude who wrote it chucked it and the newer version isn't anywhere near the shit you just spewed.

which one were you using

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Originally Posted by Emily852

which one were you using

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niv

49 pages...
49.. freaking pages....


On topic. There are things you shoulden't do. These are written and they are sins.
But why should god ban evryghting ? He does not. He gave you a chance to think..
You are in charge of your life. God has created you to live, but how to live is your choice.

As for me..
I hope you will live a sinless life and make the world better.

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Originally Posted by xWiglex

49 pages...
49.. freaking pages....


On topic. There are things you shoulden't do. These are written and they are sins.
But why should god ban evryghting ? He does not. He gave you a chance to think..
You are in charge of your life. God has created you to live, but how to live is your choice.

As for me..
I hope you will live a sinless life and make the world better.

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thats great but i wouldn't like to live by what the bible decribes as sin.

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Originally Posted by straightXed

thats great but i wouldn't like to live by what the bible decribes as sin.

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Anyway.. i can't say im actually a beliver .. But God does excist..
At least i know that..
I know it.. My prayers always got heard.. And im very thankful to him..
Perhaps it was just a coinsidence , but i really doubt that..

Even if im wrong.. Beeing nice to people in general is a good thing, even if you don't belive.

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Originally Posted by xWiglex

Anyway.. i can't say im actually a beliver .. But God does excist..
At least i know that..
I know it.. My prayers always got heard.. And im very thankful to him..
Perhaps it was just a coinsidence , but i really doubt that..

Even if im wrong.. Beeing nice to people in general is a good thing, even if you don't belive.

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Unless they prayed for something that was completely unlikely and impossible without some god like intervention i would say that is not a great reason to believe that god exists. I mean its completely possible that the things that happened for you could have (and probably did) happen without the help of god. I have no idea why you would doubt it so much, incidently, why is god a he?

Being nice to people is great but the bible is not nice to all people just those that fall in line with the beliefs of christianity, everyone else is going to hell simply for not believing not to mention unable to live a life that decent compassionate people can accept yet christians cannot. That, to me at least, is really not nice at all.

Straitedge means no drinking, smoking, and drugs. That has nothing to do with religion. Just because jesus drank wine does not mean that a straitedge person can't believe in Jesus or God. I believe in God, and I am also straitedge. I have christian friends that are straitedge. Christianity and sxe are in no way related.

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Originally Posted by Age of Faith

Straitedge means no drinking, smoking, and drugs. That has nothing to do with religion. Just because jesus drank wine does not mean that a straitedge person can't believe in Jesus or God. I believe in God, and I am also straitedge. I have christian friends that are straitedge. Christianity and sxe are in no way related.

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did you read the thread at all?

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Originally Posted by Age of Faith

Straitedge means no drinking, smoking, and drugs. That has nothing to do with religion. Just because jesus drank wine does not mean that a straitedge person can't believe in Jesus or God. I believe in God, and I am also straitedge. I have christian friends that are straitedge. Christianity and sxe are in no way related.

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I will delete your account immediately if you don't learn how to spell it right.

After being in the Catholic School system for a number of years, and being edge for the majority of those years, I can now say that I'm not really of the Catholic faith, but I believe that there's something else beyond death. For now I'm trying to lead my life as best I can, and the best for me is as a Straight Edge person.

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Originally Posted by xsecx

I will delete your account immediately if you don't learn how to spell it right.

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good argument?

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Originally Posted by Age of Faith

good argument?

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Its not like you actually have a good argument that has countered the points raised in the thread at all though is it...which is probably why your post wasn't addressed as a contending argument of how to reconcile straightedge and christianity, don't you agree?

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Originally Posted by straightXed

Its not like you actually have a good argument that has countered the points raised in the thread at all though is it...which is probably why your post wasn't addressed as a contending argument of how to reconcile straightedge and christianity, don't you agree?

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I dont really need a good argument, I dont actually care if I win or lose this debate. I already said what I wanted to say, and that was Religion and Straightedge are in no way related. Thats it. Go ahead and attack me.

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Originally Posted by Age of Faith

I dont really need a good argument, I dont actually care if I win or lose this debate. I already said what I wanted to say, and that was Religion and Straightedge are in no way related. Thats it. Go ahead and attack me.

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You need a good argument if a) you are entering into an already existing argument with well discussed points and b) if you are going to call someone else out on the strength of their argument.

You are right, they aren't related and further more one does not fit with the other without major contradiction to the point of blasphemy. If you believe otherwise the onus is on you to put forward an argument as to why that stands up against the points raised within this thread. But i'm not interested in attacking you at all so i'll have to pass on that one.

OK I JUST SPENT MY ENTIRE MORNING READING THIS ENTIRE THREAD SO THAT I MAY MAKE A LEGIT POINT... so here it is!!! Can you be Christian and Straight Edge??? Yes, because Christianity is so full of inconsistencies and is based on fabrications by man. You are blindly following the word of people without truly knowing the facts of your god so why pay attention to any facts? You believe that drinking is wrong when you are sxe and according to what people have written about 'jesus' he drank wine... but you basically have to take everything written in the bible with a grain of salt. I say you can follow the basic principles and go to church and pretend to listen and feel like you are saving your soul but your religion is based on lies and fabrications so whether or not jesus existed or whether he drank some wine and possibly if he enjoyed banging hookers (just added that in for fun) is beside the point. BUT if you truly believe every word that is being preached to you and believe that jesus isn't metaphorical and really existed and really drank alcohol but you choose a sxe lifestyle, then you aren't really christian cuz your messiah approved of drinking and took part...

in short.... christianity is hypocritically forged so what's wrong with a little hypocracy in your own life choices? hahaha

heh, i won't go much into detail.. i will also throw off the facts like when, why, and by whom were compiled Scriptures as we know then today.. but I surely recommend everyone who says he believes in Jesus (as a God) to find those information..

On topic - I don't see any reason why christian can't be straight edge (or vegan as there were claims in different thread I believe)...
sxe - Jesus drank wine? yes, that may be truth.. and what? is there any fuckin christian on this planet that can claim that he's doing WWJD? no, there is NONE.. and never was.. just think.. you have this "man".. but he's no man, he is God.. he knows everything, yet his knowledge is limited.. he is allpowerful, yet he has to ask in prayer to HIMSELF "why have you forsaken me?".. and there everything just falls apart.. if i should do what Jesus did according to this Roman Empire conspiracy called The Bible and if the last day will come and God will ask me "But why didn't you follow Jesus?" I can say with my head held high: "Because I have had no chance to do so and I had no chance to believe the Bible with the brain you gave me.."...
vegan - can be of course a christian... a christian trying to caught the glimpse of the Eden, where human beings were vegan... or from the stance of LOVE... according to 1 Cor 13:13:
" But now remains
faith, hope, love,
these three;
but the greatest of these is love. "
btw. that's one of the messages that New Testament really carries for me.. the word of love and compassion...

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Originally Posted by lo0m

heh, i won't go much into detail.. i will also throw off the facts like when, why, and by whom were compiled Scriptures as we know then today.. but I surely recommend everyone who says he believes in Jesus (as a God) to find those information..

On topic - I don't see any reason why christian can't be straight edge (or vegan as there were claims in different thread I believe)...
sxe - Jesus drank wine? yes, that may be truth.. and what? is there any fuckin christian on this planet that can claim that he's doing WWJD? no, there is NONE.. and never was.. just think.. you have this "man".. but he's no man, he is God.. he knows everything, yet his knowledge is limited.. he is allpowerful, yet he has to ask in prayer to HIMSELF "why have you forsaken me?".. and there everything just falls apart.. if i should do what Jesus did according to this Roman Empire conspiracy called The Bible and if the last day will come and God will ask me "But why didn't you follow Jesus?" I can say with my head held high: "Because I have had no chance to do so and I had no chance to believe the Bible with the brain you gave me.."...
vegan - can be of course a christian... a christian trying to caught the glimpse of the Eden, where human beings were vegan... or from the stance of LOVE... according to 1 Cor 13:13:
" But now remains
faith, hope, love,
these three;
but the greatest of these is love. "
btw. that's one of the messages that New Testament really carries for me.. the word of love and compassion...

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So you are saying you think the actions of jesus were wrong, or are you saying you think drinking is right?

i'm saying that comparing YOUR(or someone others) actions with someone who:

a) is God
b) was propably very different in person than in the Bible
or
c) maybe was a prophet but everything written about him is corrupted by man

is RIDICULOUS.. btw - i don't think that Jesus was drinking as I see drinking as bad choice..

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Originally Posted by lo0m

i'm saying that comparing YOUR(or someone others) actions with someone who:

a) is God
b) was propably very different in person than in the Bible
or
c) maybe was a prophet but everything written about him is corrupted by man

is RIDICULOUS.. btw - i don't think that Jesus was drinking as I see drinking as bad choice..

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so if you don't believe the words in the bible, what exactly are you basing your knowledge of who jesus was and what he was about on?

ok, i didn't wanted to go into this, as I'm sure that my English is not on the level I could fully reason, but well... I don't believe the Bible, I do believe in Jesus as a human, maybe a prophet.. Bible is not the only scripture that teaches about Jesus, you know.. I once believed in the Bible until I learned how, by whom and finally WHEN it was written... i have read it many times and once you see the contadictions you can find yourself finding truth like astrophysician is finding truth about black holes.. even with negative info (info that can't be fully trusted) you can study Jesus.. it also has slight glimpse of J.R.R.Tolkien's view on christianity as a "real myth"... you can study myth, even if you don't believe it, can't you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lo0m

ok, i didn't wanted to go into this, as I'm sure that my English is not on the level I could fully reason, but well... I don't believe the Bible, I do believe in Jesus as a human, maybe a prophet.. Bible is not the only scripture that teaches about Jesus, you know.. I once believed in the Bible until I learned how, by whom and finally WHEN it was written... i have read it many times and once you see the contadictions you can find yourself finding truth like astrophysician is finding truth about black holes.. even with negative info (info that can't be fully trusted) you can study Jesus.. it also has slight glimpse of J.R.R.Tolkien's view on christianity as a "real myth"... you can study myth, even if you don't believe it, can't you?

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if you don't believe the bible then how can you talk about Jesus as a god or even a prophet? All of the writings about jesus came far after the actual events so why would you believe any of it if you don't trust the bible?

that's easy logic, isn't it?

if i don't believe the Bible then why I can't talk about Jesus as God? there's a possibility.. He CAN be.. I DON'T know..so why I should abandon this possibility...

ok.. there's only one other teaching regarding Jesus that says it's revealed by God of Abraham and was revealed after Jesus' death. And that is Quran. It surely was written roughly 6 centuries after Jesus walked the Earth, but, unlike the Bible, it has remained UNCHANGED to this day. So now, we have two scriptures.

Bible - segmented, written by many men, changed by many men. compiling based on politics and personal beliefs. contains infos that are in direct contradiction with our today's scientifical abundance.

Quran - written by one man through cca 23 yrs (not sure), does not contradict itself, is much more logical, contains info that writer propably could not have known and which does not contradict today's science.

hey, I guess that now it's only matter if you DO or DON'T believe The Source - if you believe in God and if you believe particular scripture was revealed by him or not.. I've left this questions opened...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lo0m

that's easy logic, isn't it?

if i don't believe the Bible then why I can't talk about Jesus as God? there's a possibility.. He CAN be.. I DON'T know..so why I should abandon this possibility...

ok.. there's only one other teaching regarding Jesus that says it's revealed by God of Abraham and was revealed after Jesus' death. And that is Quran. It surely was written roughly 6 centuries after Jesus walked the Earth, but, unlike the Bible, it has remained UNCHANGED to this day. So now, we have two scriptures.

Bible - segmented, written by many men, changed by many men. compiling based on politics and personal beliefs. contains infos that are in direct contradiction with our today's scientifical abundance.

Quran - written by one man through cca 23 yrs (not sure), does not contradict itself, is much more logical, contains info that writer propably could not have known and which does not contradict today's science.

hey, I guess that now it's only matter if you DO or DON'T believe The Source - if you believe in God and if you believe particular scripture was revealed by him or not.. I've left this questions opened...

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i can't believe this thread is 56 pages now.
Please read the thread from the beginning, after a couple of pages you'll have your answers. Then, it all will repeat itself, with the same questions, same flawed logic, and same points/views proven wrong.

Face it: if you're christian, you can't be sxe. Thank you.

if YOU would read at least MY posts, you would already know that i am not a christian.. and, that would be a bonus, you would know that the post you've quoted is little offtopic and does not say a word about sxe..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lo0m

if YOU would read at least MY posts, you would already know that i am not a christian.. and, that would be a bonus, you would know that the post you've quoted is little offtopic and does not say a word about sxe..

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i DID read your post, and i realize what it was about, plus I've never said you were christian. (note: IF)
and yeah, you should just start reading the thread from teh beginning.

so, you realize that i'm not talking about sxe but Abrahamic religions in general. You also realize that didn't ask any question regarding this post yet you want me to read the post i've spend last week reading? huh

and " if you're christian, you can't be sxe. " cannot be simply said.. at least, because "christian" is fucking broad description.. from ultracatolics that meet with fascism to the most liberal, which sometimes claim edge.. face it, there are more viewpoints and you're not the one to tell someone how to interpret his own religion. there are christians that believe that wine is important part of sermon, yet there are others, that view their body as a temple and drugs of any kind as poison. add the aspects of possibility ( eg.that Jesus may NEVER drank wine) I've been talking before and you have very interesting equation (and we STILL didn't touch the neverending debate about translation of Bible which would add even more possibilities). I'm not trying to be rude, but you have no right to generalize someone's believes nor judge him according to your own perception of reality..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lo0m

so, you realize that i'm not talking about sxe but Abrahamic religions in general. You also realize that didn't ask any question regarding this post yet you want me to read the post i've spend last week reading? huh

and " if you're christian, you can't be sxe. " cannot be simply said.. at least, because "christian" is fucking broad description.. from ultracatolics that meet with fascism to the most liberal, which sometimes claim edge.. face it, there are more viewpoints and you're not the one to tell someone how to interpret his own religion. there are christians that believe that wine is important part of sermon, yet there are others, that view their body as a temple and drugs of any kind as poison. add the aspects of possibility ( eg.that Jesus may NEVER drank wine) I've been talking before and you have very interesting equation (and we STILL didn't touch the neverending debate about translation of Bible which would add even more possibilities). I'm not trying to be rude, but you have no right to generalize someone's believes nor judge him according to your own perception of reality..

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I adressed you by quoting you, becasue your quote was written in relation to the topic. Give me a break.i'm sick of repeating myself, and the things that have already been said in this very thread. Do your research, and read it all over again (if you have read it in the first place, which i doubt, based on your replies.)

it all comes down to integrity. it can be simply said, that if you are christian you can't be sxe, or even better, if you think you are sxe and claim to be a christian, you are a shitty person, no integrity, whatsoever period. it's just flexing and changing bits and pieces of ideas to match the imaginary connections in your head, withouth wanting to try to be rude either

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SgtD

I adressed you by quoting you, becasue your quote was written in relation to the topic. Give me a break.i'm sick of repeating myself, and the things that have already been said in this very thread. Do your research, and read it all over again (if you have read it in the first place, which i doubt, based on your replies.)

it all comes down to integrity. it can be simply said, that if you are christian you can't be sxe, or even better, if you think you are sxe and claim to be a christian, you are a shitty person, no integrity, whatsoever period. it's just flexing and changing bits and pieces of ideas to match the imaginary connections in your head, withouth wanting to try to be rude either

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sorry, writing from links browser, hope it will turn out ok.
forget sxe.. are there christian abstinents? yes, of course there are. there have always been. stop trying to argue from inside the religious "rules" (even when Jesus himself propably said that his teachings are NOT set of rules) you dont abide as youre not christian (reverse logics). let this to theologians as it takes a hard and long study to undestand all aspects and even then (or maybe its because) a theologian is always careful to start point fingers...
ok, i can see your "what-an-asshole" face right now :-))) j/k.. i had to make this point and now away from this neverending topic.. hope i didnt offended you in any way as it was certainly NOT my intention!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lo0m

i'm saying that comparing YOUR(or someone others) actions with someone who:

a) is God
b) was propably very different in person than in the Bible
or
c) maybe was a prophet but everything written about him is corrupted by man

is RIDICULOUS.. btw - i don't think that Jesus was drinking as I see drinking as bad choice..

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Thats all well and good but its generally accepted that the idea the bible presesnts of jesus is the idea that christians uphold of jesus. In said bible jesus is said to drink, straightedge alligns with the idea that drinking is not right. Thus alligning yourself with both causes contradiction...you either think jesus's actions were wrong and choose not to live like him because you think he was erronous...thus dispelling the idea of him being god and ignoring the advice in the bible. Or you are disregarding segments of the bible as it doens't fit with your life thus simply cherry picking aspects of the bible that fit and further adding to your point c).

Now you saying you don't think jesus was drinking just pretty much disregards the bible altogether, fine, but then do christians not use the bible? is this not the basis of that religion? Whilst you may feel you have a much better understanding of your relationship with god there is still this overwhelming majority of people that follow christianity and the bible and as such i fail to see how anything you say has reconciled those peoples beliefs with that of straightedge. All you have highlighted is that the religion is so poor in consistancy and is so run down that there are so many different schools of thought that disregard this and that, it just seems likme you are saying christianity at large is greatly flawed. I mean hardcore really isn't here for christians to co opt in order to recruit young minds to warp, so even if you do somehow manage to rationalise the inconsistancy in views it remains that in general christianity simply isn't a welcome force in straightedge and hardcore due to the way it corrupts things to mean something else. Don't get me wrong, i respect peoples beliefs but i just find it very puzzling why christians want to be a part of this, other than the recruiting i mean.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lo0m

that's easy logic, isn't it?

if i don't believe the Bible then why I can't talk about Jesus as God? there's a possibility.. He CAN be.. I DON'T know..so why I should abandon this possibility...

ok.. there's only one other teaching regarding Jesus that says it's revealed by God of Abraham and was revealed after Jesus' death. And that is Quran. It surely was written roughly 6 centuries after Jesus walked the Earth, but, unlike the Bible, it has remained UNCHANGED to this day. So now, we have two scriptures.

Bible - segmented, written by many men, changed by many men. compiling based on politics and personal beliefs. contains infos that are in direct contradiction with our today's scientifical abundance.

Quran - written by one man through cca 23 yrs (not sure), does not contradict itself, is much more logical, contains info that writer propably could not have known and which does not contradict today's science.

hey, I guess that now it's only matter if you DO or DON'T believe The Source - if you believe in God and if you believe particular scripture was revealed by him or not.. I've left this questions opened...

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If you follow the quran then this is a moot conversation because you don't believe that jesus was divine and therefore aren't christian. The discussion at hand is about christian beliefs and their contradictions, if you're following the teachings of the quran then you're introducing something completely different than what is actually being discussed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by straightXed

Thats all well and good but its generally accepted that the idea the bible presesnts of jesus is the idea that christians uphold of jesus. In said bible jesus is said to drink, straightedge alligns with the idea that drinking is not right. Thus alligning yourself with both causes contradiction...you either think jesus's actions were wrong and choose not to live like him because you think he was erronous...thus dispelling the idea of him being god and ignoring the advice in the bible. Or you are disregarding segments of the bible as it doens't fit with your life thus simply cherry picking aspects of the bible that fit and further adding to your point c).

Now you saying you don't think jesus was drinking just pretty much disregards the bible altogether, fine, but then do christians not use the bible? is this not the basis of that religion? Whilst you may feel you have a much better understanding of your relationship with god there is still this overwhelming majority of people that follow christianity and the bible and as such i fail to see how anything you say has reconciled those peoples beliefs with that of straightedge. All you have highlighted is that the religion is so poor in consistancy and is so run down that there are so many different schools of thought that disregard this and that, it just seems likme you are saying christianity at large is greatly flawed. I mean hardcore really isn't here for christians to co opt in order to recruit young minds to warp, so even if you do somehow manage to rationalise the inconsistancy in views it remains that in general christianity simply isn't a welcome force in straightedge and hardcore due to the way it corrupts things to mean something else. Don't get me wrong, i respect peoples beliefs but i just find it very puzzling why christians want to be a part of this, other than the recruiting i mean.

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wow, well said.. now i can see the problem.. youre talking about religion as a set of dogmas and rules.. thats fine as its true and we can see it every day.. i was talking about some hypothetical, yet very real inner true spirit of christianity.. that represents through charity, forgiveness and similar stuff (lets be honest - which too much christians lack).. grr, i wish my english was better...
anyway, yes, in that case you guys are right, as its a lot simplified reality. pure rules comparing. i guess many christians would tell you that this rule is not that important, but i can be wrong... peace..