i really dont like religion, especially christianity.
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i really dont like religion, especially christianity.
I spent a lot of time reading this the other day, and it's something I've always thought about.
So I talked to my Christ follower buddy about this subject who practically breathes Christian scripture and studies it.
He insisted that any wine Jesus made or consumed was un-alcoholic.
He claims there is proof within the descriptions of wine in the bible that proves it is un-alcoholic. He also mentioned something about not allowing it to ferment for some reason...
But it was 2:00 in the morning, and I was half asleep. I can't recall what he said on that subject.
All I have to say personally on the matter is:
"This ain't no cross on my hand" - Limp Wrist
your friend is wrong, there's no scriptural or historical reason to believe that it wasn't alcoholic wine.Quote:
Originally Posted by xTonyThreatx
what do you mean that doesnt make sense? im saying that living a life for god and then dying to find out there is no god is better than living a life not of god and finding out there is a god. it really isnt that complex. maybe you should try reading it again.
i know they didnt do any harm because of common sense, there isnt much damage you can do in 20b.c.
no, im addressing the point you made erlier. what i said was that alchohol was a lot different back then. straight edge people do have a problem with alchohol, but there werent any straight edges back then were there?...And he has a problem with it. he has a problem with people getting drunk off of alchohol which is the reason straight edges are against alchohol. if there was no way to get drunk on alchohol you wouldnt have a problem with it. you and jesus both have a problem with getting drunk. that is the only bad thing about alchohol.
Could you try and just read what im saying instead of just replying with "that doesnt make sense." because all im saying makes sense and it would be great if you could just come up with a good response instead of just mocking it.
maybe you should try finding out what he was talking about instead of just throwing it out the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
because it's an argument that's been made a lot by modern christians and has already been debunked earlier in this thread. I suggest you read the following: http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/con...114796842.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by w.wright690
And that doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not belief in god is logical. What you just describe was living in fear, not a logical decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by w.wright690
So suicide, rape, incest, murder, etc didn't exist back then and weren't aided by alcohol?Quote:
i know they didnt do any harm because of common sense, there isnt much damage you can do in 20b.c.
I think your world view is ignorant and naive if you think alcohol is a modern problem.
There were plenty of people back then that had a problem with the consumption of alcohol for moral reasons, jesus just wasn't one of them. Straight Edge people have an issue with the consumption of alcohol at all. Jesus had no problem with the consumption of alcohol and that's the root of the issue. To be straight edge you're saying that you thinking the drinking of any amount of alcohol is wrong and that is in direct conflict with the teachings and actions of jesus.Quote:
no, im addressing the point you made erlier. what i said was that alchohol was a lot different back then. straight edge people do have a problem with alchohol, but there werent any straight edges back then were there?...And he has a problem with it. he has a problem with people getting drunk off of alchohol which is the reason straight edges are against alchohol. if there was no way to get drunk on alchohol you wouldnt have a problem with it. you and jesus both have a problem with getting drunk. that is the only bad thing about alchohol.
a lot of what you've said doesn't make sense. you've said that alcohol was one of the greatest inventions of all time and that it didn't cause problems in the distant past. Both of those statements make no sense.Quote:
Could you try and just read what im saying instead of just replying with "that doesnt make sense." because all im saying makes sense and it would be great if you could just come up with a good response instead of just mocking it.
all that needs be said on this topic. lovers of jesus GTFO!Quote:
Originally Posted by xTonyThreatx
I threw it out the window too. I figured I would ask him since he isn't Christian and he studies biblical texts far more than any "Christians" of today.Quote:
Originally Posted by w.wright690
Also, a tad off-topic, but do any other non-christians hate it when they find a really good hardcore/edge band just to find out they are christian?
Then you think, "Well, they have good music, that's what matters."
But then once you get deeper into their music you find that they are nothing but a Jesus preaching Chirstcore band?
Can you give me your personal deffinition of logic. not the dictionary one that you showed before.Quote:
And that doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not belief in god is logical. What you just describe was living in fear, not a logical decision.
maybe i made my first statement a little too quickly. those things did happen back then and some were aided by alchohol. but jesus didnt just made it for a wedding, where it was necessary.Quote:
So suicide, rape, incest, murder, etc didn't exist back then and weren't aided by alcohol?
I think your world view is ignorant and naive if you think alcohol is a modern problem.
What are you basing this off of? there were people that drank too much or just drank but didnt get drunk. i have never seen anything that says that there were people who didnt drink at all because its wrong.Quote:
There were plenty of people back then that had a problem with the consumption of alcohol for moral reasons, jesus just wasn't one of them. Straight Edge people have an issue with the consumption of alcohol at all. Jesus had no problem with the consumption of alcohol and that's the root of the issue. To be straight edge you're saying that you thinking the drinking of any amount of alcohol is wrong and that is in direct conflict with the teachings and actions of jesus.
Let me ask you this...would you have a problem with alchohol if you couldnt get drunk? im pretty sure the answer is no. you have a problem with getting drunk as did jesus. jesus never said that we are obligated to drink alchohol. although at the last supper he did say that we should remember him. and christians practice that at communion with wine. but they drink like a tablespoon. i see nothing wrong with drinking a tablespoon to remember your god. if you do i guess thats find it just makes no snese to me since the only reason you have a problem with it is that you can get drunk. and you cant get drunk off of a tablespoon.
I did, you apparently just didn't like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by w.wright690
i wouldn't say more than any, because you dont know all of them. there are people that study that stuff for there entire livesQuote:
Originally Posted by xTonyThreatx
sorry i messed up making that postQuote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Yeah, but a majority of christians haven't even opened a bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by w.wright690
It's really sad.
that is my definition of logic, there's no reason for me to have a personal one when that one fits exactly what I've been talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by w.wright690
it wasn't necessary, it was a custom. According to John it happened after they had run out of wine, after the ceremony. It wasn't necessary at all, it was a party. There were plenty of people that didn't drink alcohol at the time. The drinking of alcohol, then and now was part of the culture and something expected and accepted. This was a culture that Jesus accepted and condoned and a culture that people that are straight edge reject.Quote:
maybe i made my first statement a little too quickly. those things did happen back then and some were aided by alchohol. but jesus didnt just made it for a wedding, where it was necessary.
buddhism predates christianity and states that the consumption of alcohol is wrong. John the Baptist didn't drink alcohol at all.Quote:
What are you basing this off of? there were people that drank too much or just drank but didnt get drunk. i have never seen anything that says that there were people who didnt drink at all because its wrong.
Your question doesn't make sense, because the issue with alcohol are the effects. If you take away those effects then it doesn't really matter. I have a problem with the consumption of alcohol in any amount for any reason. I have a problem with a religion that condones the use of alcohol while at the same time condemning drunkenness. I believe that it's a pointless substance that should be avoided completely because of what it does and the effects it has on people. I think that anyone who would drink alcohol because of their religion cannot be straight edge, because they clearly do not have a strong moral issue with the consumption of alcohol.Quote:
Let me ask you this...would you have a problem with alchohol if you couldnt get drunk? im pretty sure the answer is no. you have a problem with getting drunk as did jesus. jesus never said that we are obligated to drink alchohol. although at the last supper he did say that we should remember him. and christians practice that at communion with wine. but they drink like a tablespoon. i see nothing wrong with drinking a tablespoon to remember your god. if you do i guess thats find it just makes no snese to me since the only reason you have a problem with it is that you can get drunk. and you cant get drunk off of a tablespoon.
Christianity is plagued with contradiction and hypocrisy. I chose to give up those things when I became edge. I do, however believe that there can be an ultimate authority in your life. For a lot of edgers, it is the music, the community, the brotherhood. For me, I do believe in on divine spirit, devoid of human influence. Or destruction.
I don't think that any divine creature would waste his time walking the earth-- therefore, discounting the existence of a messiah, in my opinion.
I do think, for those of us that have been given a second chance at life through straightedge, there must be someone in control. Because I am seldom deserving of the life I have today.
As far as an answer to the original question-- NO. You can not be christian and straight edge.
I like the analogy that if you don't like hardcore, you can't be edge. That's very true. But, I guess, at the same time, if you do live hardcore, you can have other musical interests.
You can be DRUG FREE/HATE FREE/LUST FREE. Just keep your label in the appropriate context.
This is just my opinion-- Not meant for controversy.
someones gota deleate this. it keeps comin back like a damn zombie, dose anyone really enjoy arguing over the same thing with the same answers anymore?
i disagree, it should be made a sticky!Quote:
Originally Posted by chadfitzy
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadfitzy
if it was deleted it would just come back.
No use in making it a sticky since its the only topic there is in the religion part i guess :sQuote:
Originally Posted by SgtD
Is there any other possible way to talk about religion related to sXe?
Though i would like to find out if there are muslim straightedgers...
just out of curiosity :D
there are, they're just older than what's being displayed by default.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just-a-fool
and yes, there are muslim straight edge kids.
Hmm i should change my interface a bit then, so it will show older topics too.
Anyway, i'm not an active catholic. Not many Belgian youth is.
But if anyone asks me what my religion is i still say i'm christian.
Why's that? Because i dont know that much of other religions yet :D
Maybe i should read up about others somewhere else.
Ohw yeh my opionion about being edge and Christian?
I find it quite possible since they both follow the same basics.
I would suggest going through and reading the thread, the conversation is about scriptural issues rather than a general question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just-a-fool
I hate to but in here, but I think that a point has been missed. Comparing sxe with Christianity, or any religion, is like apples and oranges. First, sxe does not suggest that drinking is wrong in so much as it is a 'sin.' There are no 'sins' in sxe, only the committment to abstaining from drinking since it does not give one the 'edge.' So, Christ's drinking was not a committment to maintaining an 'edge,' that ability to be ahead of a culture seduced by drugs and alcohol, but one that identified him with current Jewish culture. Edge is more for those specifically in the punk/hardcore scene. If you are not in it, then there is no reason to have an 'edge,' since drinking dulls the senses-something that is more necessary in a lifestyle in the fast lane than in the slow.
You may find that my interpretation of sxe is not the same as your's, but the logic, assuming my interpretation is correct or acceptable is there.
what is everyones obsession with apples and oranges on this forum?!Quote:
Originally Posted by xmountbrockenx
Hey, their good for you. And they make a point through a model one can understand. However, I could have said that the two, Christianity (or any religion) and sxe, are not the same sorts of things. The former is a religion, the latter a lifestyle associated with the hardcore/punk scene. Is that better? But you should still eat your apples and oranges. For I hear they prolong life and make one feel better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Segadoway
people aren't comparing them at all, the argument is that the beliefs of one contradict the beliefs of the other. I also don't understand why you think that straight edge doesn't suggest that drinking is wrong, nor do I understand how something could be a "sin" and not wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmountbrockenx
"Sins" and "wrong things" are two different categories. If you blurping out loud at the table this is wrong. But not a sin. If you kill someone this is a sin. xmountbrockenx try to say that for straight edge people drinking is a wrong thing. Not a sin. So when there is a church service on sunday, some dudes are drinking wine and some dudes are not. And there isn't problem for the "two sides". I think this is what he want to say...Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Some straight edge guy is vegan and think eating meat is a wrong thing, but when there is a show they sing along with straight edgers who eating meat... And no problem.
I didn't get that impression from what he was saying at all, in fact I saw it as the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by XTrueColorsX
and being christian and vegan for moral reasons is also against christian scripture for the same reason.
Good point. However a comparison must be weighed on some level in order to compare their beliefs; which subsequently would reflect the consistency of holding to Christian beliefs and sxe ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Again, I think it all depends on how sxe is viewed. I mean I feel I am familiar with the basic tenets of the sxe lifestyle, but what it means to abstain from drinking is a personal choice. And furthermore, if Jesus drank he was not sxe. However, this does not mean that by holding to a sxe lifestyle one is necessarily committed to viewing Christ as 'bad' or 'evil.' Ultimately, I find that sxe is a phenomenon that is restricted to personal decisions and the punk/hardcore scene. In short, I feel that for the person who is sxe, drinking is not 'wrong' but 'wrong for themselves.' Do you see the difference? I suppose if I were Jesus I would not have claimed since I would be in a situation where drinking reflected a mere necessity of 1st century Jewish culture as well as a less pejorative social stigma.
Furthermore, I think a punk rocker drinking is far worse than say an average joe businessman or construction worker. This is because they're way of life is far different from ours. They essentially live in another world and I suppose if I were not in the scene and the type of person I am I would not have claimed. But I am until death and that is that. And this means that one can be a Christian and sxe (assuming we agree with sxe being restricted to the 20-21 century as well as to the type of scene and lifestyle punkers and ballers enjoy) since drinking is not 'wrong' for everyone, only for those who make the choice to be so. At least that is my take. YOu may think it is wrong for everyone. Well I do not.
So you think drinking is something that is a positive and should be encourage? How does that reconcile with the words, actions and slogans that surround straight edge? I've never met anyone who claimed to be straight edge who didn't believe strongly that the world would be a better place without drugs and alcohol. There is a difference between accepting the decisions of others and condoning/endorsing them. Straight edge is an extreme lifestyle. It's one of abstinence and not one of moderation. What you're talking about describes someone who does not feel strongly about the consumption of alcohol and drugs, so I don't see why someone like that would take one a label like Straight Edge, one associated with a strict lifestyle of abstinence.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmountbrockenx
I didn't say that drinking is a positive thing across the board. Obviously not in my situation. However, in some people's situations in life, I see nothing wrong with it. Its just not for me. Hey, I didn't think that being sxe meant you had to be evangelical about it, or to say that drinking is 'wrong' for everyone. My wife drinks moderately on occasion. You think i am going to think her less of a person for it. Clearly not. She is a better person in many ways than I am. Being sxe does not make me a better person than others, only that for me if I were to drink I would be less of a person. If you don't want to think of me as edge because I 'believe; differently than you, thats fine. Sxe is about action, or personal committments I thought. Not about a belief system. That sounds like a religion to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Another comment I would like to make. Sxe is an extreme lifestyle. And that is the word for it; lifestyle. However, I feel I am free to 'believe' as I wish about alcohol. And personally I have no problem with it for some who choose to use it responsibly. I'm sorry, the reason I went edge was because, a.) I hated the lifestyle of those I hung around with that drank, did drugs and whored around. And b.) I didn't want to live that life. However, those who drank that I knew were like me; extreme. I am an extreme personality, and people like me should not drink. But I think it is alright for others who live more passive lives. So sxe gives me the edge in the scene and sort of life and person I am. And I think that this is enough to be edge. Not necessarily to look down on all those who do drink. I respect many who do. Some of my favorite authors drank, C. S. Lewis, G. K. Chesterton, the list goes on. And of course Jesus (not an author obviosuly-but in my opinion God in the flesh). These are much better men than me. But if I have any chance at being the best I can be, I feel I have to abstain from alcohol, unlike them. After all, I doubt they liked bowling themselves into crowds of people, screaming at the top of their lungs to the tune of social ills, or punching holes in walls. Thats just me.
So do you believe that the drinking of alcohol is something positive and should be condoned and encouraged? Do you believe that the world would be a better place without alcohol? What action do you think straight edge is about? What would be the point of a personal commitment, that you just keep to yourself? I mean, why did all those bands over all these years say the things they did? If it's just about yourself, why align yourself with a label that clearly is about something more than one persons personal belief? i just don't see the point of calling yourself straight edge, if all it is is about you and not about trying to make a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmountbrockenx
so do you or do you not, believe the world would be a better place without alcohol?Quote:
Originally Posted by xmountbrockenx
I don't think it will be any better or any worse. What I do think, which is the point I am trying to stress, is that for some people it is wrong and for others permissable. I don't think it is the responsibility of a sxe person to abolish all alcohol like some 1920's abolitionist.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
OK, think of it this way. Some people are allergic to certain substance, such as penicillin. With this in mind, it would be ludicrious to think that it being administered to one that is allergic to it would get any better. However, to someone that is not, it would be beneficial. Now in the case of alcohol, I am not suggesting that it is some medicinal health agent. However, I am suggesting that to some it is poison and to others it is not.
In short, if I were to accept the ridiculous claim that alcohol is bad for all people all the time and that if ALL (not some or most) people drink then they are bad or doing a bad thing, I would exclude a good many people I respect and look up to. Now, it is true that say an overweight person should lose weight for their own health and I could at the same time respect them as a person but not condone what they are doing to their body. But I don't think that even this sort of case would apply. For drinking in moderation for some is no less bad for one's health than say a glass of Mt Dew once a week. And yet I am aware of the fact that it is more about sobriety than healthiness. To this, I say that being 'tipsy' for some is acceptable, and for others, like me, it is not.
Now, my tolerance of others drinking is in no way a diminshment on my sxe principles, I feel. You seem to disagree. You seem to think that sxe principles, as expressed by the majority of sxe advocates, is one that applies to everyone and that the whole of our society, nay the world, should abstain. That may be true. However, if this is the case (which I am in no position to say since all I know of sxe are the guidelines that are generally given as a personal committment not a global effort) then perhaps I am not sxe according to your standards. I find a different set of standards for being sxe, as I have understood them, which is simply one's own abstinence alone; not some unconditional intolerance of its use by all members of socoety in all times, in all places, in all conditions, etc...Thats just not how I understand sxe...perhaps the majority of sxe adherents see it that way. I go by a simple minimalism so to speak.
you're focusing on the first question and completely ignoring the rest. Do you believe that alcohol is something positive and should be encouraged? I didn't ask whether or not you tolerated or even if you accepted the behavior of others. What's the point of giving something a name, like straight edge, if it's just a personal commitment? Why associate with others if that's the case? I also never said anything about unconditional intolerance. There is a distinct difference between accepting the fact that people will use substances and condoning it. I honestly believe that the world would be better place without drugs and alcohol and I have a really hard time understanding how someone could identify with straight edge, with all of the slogans, lyrics, etc , and believe the drinking and drug use is ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmountbrockenx
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
First, i didn't say drug use was OK. It is illegal after all. And as far as your question which you felt I have been avoiding, namely do I believe that alcohol is something positive and should be encouraged, is somethign I can not answer on the grounds that it is a loaded question. It assumes that alcohol is something that has either negative or positive connotations. I take issue with this unnecessary conjunction.
And to answer a couple of your other questions "I didn't ask whether or not you tolerated or even if you accepted the behavior of others. What's the point of giving something a name, like straight edge, if it's just a personal commitment?" Well a personal committment is just that and must a have a name.
"Why associate with others if that's the case? " Because there is a shared common interest that is probably rare and quite uncommon.
"I honestly believe that the world would be better place without drugs and alcohol and I have a really hard time understanding how someone could identify with straight edge, with all of the slogans, lyrics, etc , and believe the drinking and drug use is ok" Well i have a really hard time understanding why someone would think that the world would be better without alcohol. I am pretty sure there have been a great many tyrants that were not alcoholics. And if someone who is sxe feels that the world would be a better place without alcohol then that is their opinion not a necessary condition for being sxe. Being sxe is about a lifestyle, not an opinion about world politics or social ethics.
To contrast your statement, I don't think ridding the world of drugs and alcohol will make a bit of difference. I think ridding the world of pride and selfishness might. So again, sxe, as far as I understand it and not as it is propounded by some, or maybe even many, through the microphones of certain bands, is about abstaining from these things for that person. They are wrong FOR ME, not FOR EVERYONE. If you can not understand how I separate myself from others, just think of it this way...every person is unique...furthermore there are similarities between some persons more than others...these similarities immediately put them in groups...these groups function and behave and act differently than others in other social groups even when subjected to the same diets, situations, life conditions, etc...with this in mind, the best for me is different than the best for you...there are general morals and rules that apply to all...I don't think that this includes alcohol and the like...so, sxe is a specific set of guidelines that govern individuals, not individuality...sxe is a lifestyle for certain humans, not humanity...see the difference...how much clearer can I make myself.
Now I assume you disagree, so where does this leave us? Well I would suppose that you must ask yourself, can someone be sxe who doesn't believe alcohol is bad for ALL people. If so, i have a question for you, why is that? And if one can not, why not?
So what makes drugs different from alcohol? What about tobacco?Quote:
Originally Posted by xmountbrockenx
I don't see how it's a loaded question at all, something is either something that should be encouraged or discouraged. Does alcohol have negative side effects? Are the negative side effects of alcohol use severe enough that it should be avoided? Or are there positives about it's use should be encouraged?
If it's personal then it has no baring on anyone else, so naming it is pointless.Quote:
And to answer a couple of your other questions "I didn't ask whether or not you tolerated or even if you accepted the behavior of others. What's the point of giving something a name, like straight edge, if it's just a personal commitment?" Well a personal committment is just that and must a have a name.
but you just said taht it was personal, so how could it be a shared common interest? What would that shared common interest be? Just simply being sober? If you see no problems with drugs or alcohol, why even make the distinction?Quote:
"Why associate with others if that's the case? " Because there is a shared common interest that is probably rare and quite uncommon.
wait, so you honestly believe that alcohol isn't a direct contributing factors in anything that's wrong with the world? I honestly am calling bullshit on your now, if you think straight edge isn't about world politics or social ethics you clearly haven't listened to very many edge bands. Straight edge is more than just not doing drugs or alcohol.Quote:
"I honestly believe that the world would be better place without drugs and alcohol and I have a really hard time understanding how someone could identify with straight edge, with all of the slogans, lyrics, etc , and believe the drinking and drug use is ok" Well i have a really hard time understanding why someone would think that the world would be better without alcohol. I am pretty sure there have been a great many tyrants that were not alcoholics. And if someone who is sxe feels that the world would be a better place without alcohol then that is their opinion not a necessary condition for being sxe. Being sxe is about a lifestyle, not an opinion about world politics or social ethics.
So drugs and alcohol are not contributing factor to crime, violence, abuse, health problems, death and their absence would make no difference? Really? Drunk drivers would exist then? I find this statement completely ridiculous.Quote:
To contrast your statement, I don't think ridding the world of drugs and alcohol will make a bit of difference. I think ridding the world of pride and selfishness might. So again, sxe, as far as I understand it and not as it is propounded by some, or maybe even many, through the microphones of certain bands, is about abstaining from these things for that person. They are wrong FOR ME, not FOR EVERYONE. If you can not understand how I separate myself from others, just think of it this way...every person is unique...furthermore there are similarities between some persons more than others...these similarities immediately put them in groups...these groups function and behave and act differently than others in other social groups even when subjected to the same diets, situations, life conditions, etc...with this in mind, the best for me is different than the best for you...there are general morals and rules that apply to all...I don't think that this includes alcohol and the like...so, sxe is a specific set of guidelines that govern individuals, not individuality...sxe is a lifestyle for certain humans, not humanity...see the difference...how much clearer can I make myself.
I've already asked myself that question long ago and the answer's the same. I cannot reconcile how someone would take an extreme stance on drugs and alcohol and calling themselves straight edge and ally themselves with everyone else and everything else about it and not feel strongly about the subject globally since it does effect everyone and it's simply down to what a person does in the comfort of their own home with no effect to anyone but themselves.Quote:
Now I assume you disagree, so where does this leave us? Well I would suppose that you must ask yourself, can someone be sxe who doesn't believe alcohol is bad for ALL people. If so, i have a question for you, why is that? And if one can not, why not?