ok i would like to say that in Bible times
wine was not always alcoholic
it was also grapejuice-like
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ok i would like to say that in Bible times
wine was not always alcoholic
it was also grapejuice-like
yeah, that's actually a lie that some churches came up with relatively recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by XbassmanX
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/Con...114796842.html
"It is clear that both the Old and New Testaments are clear and consistent in their condemnation of drunkenness. However, some Christians today argue that whenever "wine" was used by Jesus or praised as a gift of God, it was really grape juice; only when it caused drunkenness was it wine. Thus, they interpret the Bible as asserting that grape juice is good and that drinking it is acceptable to God but that wine is bad and that drinking it is unacceptable. This reasoning appears to be incorrect for at least two reasons. First, neither the Hebrew nor Biblical Greek word for wine can be translated or interpreted as referring to grape juice. Secondly, grape juice would quickly ferment into wine in the warm climate of the Mediterranean region without refrigeration or modern methods of preservation (Royce, 1986, pp. 55-56; Raymond, 1927, pp. 18-22; Hewitt, 1980, pp. 11-12)."
okay... i'm new here... so i'm still getting used to things... but i don't see how the fact that Jesus drank wine 2000 years ago has any impact whatsoever on modern society... i mean, seriously, if we're supposed to be accepting of other people, why can't you be Christian and sXe... so... excuse my ignorance... but could someone please explain that to me?
me tooQuote:
Originally Posted by iamnotaturtle
and i didnt say all wine back then was grapejuice
and besides how would you know if it wasnt?
I don't see why christians want to be a part of a movement in which the majority of people involved are anti christian.
and i dont see why people in the straightedge scene cry for unity but wont accept other peoples beliefs
1. Hardcore has never been very accepting of Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by XbassmanX
2. Any serious christian I have met that attends church on sunday partakes in the consumption of alcohol (wine the blood of christ) and that ceremony is deeply rooted in the bible and christian beliefs.
3. Why would you be half assed about something you say you so strongly believe in, something that is written in the bible as an essential part of your faith to god and remembering jesus ("take eat, take drink and do this in remembrance of me") should not be ignored right?
4. And this ritual it clearly states he gave them wine and it has been practiced that way for hundreds of years now, how are you remembering Jesus/God if you do not partake in this?
5. Do you even read the bible and understand your religion? Why is it ok to ignore some parts you don't agree with or customize it to your wants and needs, is a straight edge lifestyle worth more than being true to your spiritual beliefs?
then can't the same be said for everything else Jesus did? Also, please read the thread and not just the title to understand why people are saying people can't be christian and edge and why the beliefs conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamnotaturtle
because in some cases, specifically the wedding at cana and passover, it couldn't have been grape juice? Why would it be? There isn't a historical or cultural reason to believe that jesus didn't drink alcohol.Quote:
Originally Posted by XbassmanX
they are both VERY important to me. i can be both. they go along with each otherQuote:
Originally Posted by PROPER JERK
Saying 2 things that contradict each other go along, isn't thing as they actually doing. Do you think Jesus was perfect? And do you think drinking is wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
why can't we just agree to disagree. ? me being a christain doesn't affect ne one but me!Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Why can't you actually address the points have been raised? How am I supposed to agree to disagree when you can't actually counter any of the points that have been raised? Why would/should I respect the opinion of someone who clearly hasn't even really thought this issue through?Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
They don't go along together, both disagree with eachother...Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
You either be edge and disregard essential parts of being christian or you disregard your straight edge beliefs to be christian... in my eyes that isnt really caring much about either of them and a total waste of time.
so are you saying that you dont accept christians because you say its self contradicting?
Almost 40 pages of people saying that Christian beliefs clash with straight edge beliefs and you are asking this question?Quote:
Originally Posted by XbassmanX
I don't know how I can make it anymore crystal clear for you...
making referance to jesus drinking wine therefore being inpure or a impropper roll model and should never be assosiated with being edge is fucking stupid.
back 2000 years ago did they have straight edge.? no they didnt and it was fucking customry to drink wine. things change over time and become more socialy "right" as time goes on. 40 years ago if you had a tattoo you would of been a sailor or in jail. now nealy every fucker has one. in the 1600's and 1700's the law was what the bible said. if read books other then the bible it was noticed you were a witch and you would be hung.
and 2000 years ago people drank wine as customry, not to get off there chops or anything.
im athiest however i have been to religious school only because the education is better. and they say the bible isn't to be taken litteraly. so in my opinion being christian and edge is fuckin rad. also just because you dont listen to the music doesnt mean your not edge.
call yourself what you want. dont be selfish with a name unless somebody is trying put it down then defend it.
I never once mentioned Jesus drinking wine and being an improper role model, my argument on this subject is that being a Christian means taking part in a ceremony in which you consume alcohol to remember Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by NapoleonXXX
The Christian religion is based on a faith in Jesus Christ and god, in the bible it says so itself "Take: eat; take: drink. Do this in remembrance of me." This is instruction from Jesus Christ your lord and Saviour. I don't know about you but it seems to me that the consumption of alcohol is a pretty important part of being a Christian, unless you are of course a born again Christian in which case you might as well write moron on your forehead every day when you wake up.
wow, the only dumbfuck is you.Quote:
Originally Posted by NapoleonXXX
as you started off by calling names, you should have read the thread from the beginning. and again. and again. maybe that will help.
the pure fact is, that if you are a christian, Jesus is your god, he is without sin, and can not be wrong. sxe kids say that drinking is wrong. christian kids say he can not be wrong. a sxe christian is a contradiction in itself.
it still is the customry to drink wine. i don't see what you are pointing at with this one. unless that it is socially right to drink, and if it is in your standards, and you say you are sxe, than that's interesting.
straight edge without hardcore is nothing. the music is the channel for sxe. if you don't listen to the music, you still can be drug free, why be selfish, and use the name if you don't have any relation to it? having the drug free label is not enough?
i personally don't give a damn about kids thinking about themselves as sxe, it does annoy me, but i know full well, they'll be gone in a year or so.
religious school doesn't seem to be too good of an education for you if you can't see the point.
WE DONT DRINK WINE. WILL YOU PEOPLE LISTEN TO ME!!!!
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MAY OR NOT DRINK WINE WITH COMMUNION BUT THE MODERN CHURCH DOES NOT.
its Grape juice. it's SYMBOLIC of what Jesus wanted us to do. not really alcohol.
and none of you have refuted the fact that drinking wine was cultural, 2000 years ago, so not seen as an evil thing that it is now.
and being straight edge is against drinking and doing drugs, so is the christian church.
woah!Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
this is pretty much a flawed logic.
the catholic church really handles out real wine, and i never heard about grape juice before. come and check at any church over here.
a small heads-up: drinking wine is cultural in the days we live in. I don't know how the christian church is against drinking, when the preachers are consuming it (just like the people who do communion) and the preachers have famous wineyards, and schnapps in a lot of countries even in these days we live in. (this is a historically proven fact)
However, it is cool, that you think Jesus is evil! :)
the person who has to listen, and think about these things, is you.(and your friends on here)
answer two basic questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
Do you think drinking is wrong?
Do you think Jesus was perfect?
Man these kids who come into these groups just to argue the idea of christianity not coinciding wth sxe, are lame. I am sure glad that is not how i got started on this website.....
yes, yes.
then if jesus was perfect, then how can something he do be wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
i think that what Jesus did was, accpetable in what he did only because the culture he lived in was ok with it. and he never got drunk.
the Bible is against get drunk, not neccessarily drinking. he never got drunk therefore, never did Jesus break his own laws.
and in Hungary it might be different but the majority of american churches are against drinking and use grape juice.
except for the catholic church, which is universal.
again, why does cultural relevance matter? He was perfect. If he was perfect then, he should be perfect now. That's what perfect means. He chose to do it, one of his disciples chose not to. Jesus drank, John the baptist didn't. According to your own beliefs Jesus was wrong for his choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
But you ARE against drinking, and therefore believe that something jesus did was wrong. You've judged god. That's the crux of the issue. how can you find fault in god?Quote:
the Bible is against get drunk, not neccessarily drinking. he never got drunk therefore, never did Jesus break his own laws.
That is possibly the most retarded thing I have ever heard. The culture we live in now is ok with drinking and it is the most common social activity. Did you ever think to even research or find out anything about straight edge before you claimed it?Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
Also can you tell me what the modern church you belong to is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtD
i dont know what kind of church you are talking about but it sure aint mine
Are you born again?Quote:
Originally Posted by XbassmanX
re-read, it's well hidden in my post!Quote:
Originally Posted by XbassmanX
hint: it starts with a c.
ok, i'm not judging jesus at all. dont say that i do when i dont.
jesus was PERFECT. i dont drink not becuause i think it's bad, but becuase i dont want to be addicted.
i go to a non-denominational church. im a born again believer.
John the Baptist wasn't really his disciple. he was a prophet and fore-comer. and John the Baptist didn't drink becuase he was a Nazarene, not for any other reason.
and if drinking was ok, and getting drunk was not, and Jesus never got drunk, then still is he perfect.
um, I just asked you if you thought drinking was wrong, and you said yes? If you don't think drinking is bad, then why would you call yourself straight edge, a group who does think drinking is bad?Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
Do you realize how incredibly inconsistant you are? First you argue that jesus had to drink, then you refute that john the baptist didn't drink, and now you accept it but then don't actually address your original point.Quote:
John the Baptist wasn't really his disciple. he was a prophet and fore-comer. and John the Baptist didn't drink becuase he was a Nazarene, not for any other reason.
and you still said that you think drinking is wrong. Would you have taken the wine from jesus if he gave it to you? IF so, then how are you against drinking? ANd if not, then how can you say that he's perfect?Quote:
and if drinking was ok, and getting drunk was not, and Jesus never got drunk, then still is he perfect.
i think that world would be a much better place w/out alcohol. but do i think that drinking is like uber uber bad?
for me it would be. i dont judge or presume to know what is best for other people.
well if John the baptist didn't drink, and jesus never got drunk, then how is any of that sinning?
i dont get what you're trying to say.
jESUS wouldn't ask me to drink alcohol so thats not even the issue.
this has been written before, like a thousand times.Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
A) straight edge include a stance against the use of recreational drugs. its not abstaing from drugs just for the sake of it, we do it because we dont agree with it.
B) jesus condoned the usage of alcoholic drinks, read this same thread before for all the facts written in the bible and shit.
C) jesus is the son of god in earth but share his escense with the holy trinity, wich means jesus is god, and also was his representative in earth while he was around here.
D) the idea of god is based on a being who is flawless and perfect, so he cant be wrong.
now, you take D and add it up to C and B, you get a perfect god in earth who turns water into whine for people to drink.
but A also says that you dont agree with the usage of alcohol as a recreative drug, so that means you dont agree with the idea of drinking whine, but jesus gave people whine, so he clearly agrees with it... and you dont... and he does...
you see the contradiction?
what rodrigo said (and the others have been saying since the opening of this topic, if you cared to read..)Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
i'll add one thing:
Jesus never got drunk you say, but he did drink, adn you admit it. So drinking in moderation is cool with you? I mean, come on, you think drinking is über über bad, and the world would be a better place without it...Quote:
well if John the baptist didn't drink, and jesus never got drunk, then how is any of that sinning?
and for your reading pleasure, here's something for you:
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions make me sick
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
They all claim that they have the truth
That'll set you free
Just give 'em all your money and they'll set you free
Free for a fee
They all claim that they have 'the Answer'
When they don't even know the Question
They're just a bunch of liars
They just want your money
They just want your consciousness
All religions suck
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
All religions make me wanna BLEAH
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me ILL
oh yeah, and this one too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPrxB6C-I1M
If you don't understand the lyrics, of which i wouldn't be surprised, get an mp3 of this song. I couldn't find the lyrics for it. NO CIRCLE PITS IN HEAVEN!!!
Cristian infiltration
you've got your biblical vision
wanting to instill it on xxx hardcore
with conservative precision
this ain´t no cross on my hand
this x on my hand is no dead mans
stigmata
centuries of hate disguised on pamphlet
at a show
impressionable kids believe it but they
haven´t lived enough to know
this ain't no cross on my hand
underneath all the false promises and peace
is nothing but a bunch of lies and the end of
you and me.
this ain't no cross on my hand
he asked other people to, specifically the wedding of cana and the last supper?Quote:
Originally Posted by xmegx
Seriously, at this point, is it completely lost on you how much you're contradicting yourself?
once rodrigo put it into a different way, i see how it could be a contradiction.
but i choose, to see it this way, God would want to me to stay sober, because it would be VERY bad for me.
and God/ Jesus is ultimatley right. this is true.
thanks rodrigo for saying it in a non-accusatory way.
the fact is that im a sxe christian person. it doesn't affect anyone but me, and i think that it should be no biggie to anyone else.
so please dont judge me.
maybe it is a contradiction, but lays on my head, not yours.