did you seriously read anything in this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by xMoranXArmyx
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did you seriously read anything in this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by xMoranXArmyx
so ultimately you can't actually talk about what's being discussed?Quote:
Originally Posted by xMoranXArmyx
lol...there's a difference between a Christian telling a Christian how to live his/her life and a fuckin non-christian telling a christian how he/she should live life.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
but no, i'm not an authoritarian either, and if you are gonna continue to argue with me, you will not break new ground. it's a lost cause. i'll just leave this forum, never to bother you guys again. However, i will say that this forum is extremely un-helpful. lol...what a crock of shit. to those in here who have been helpful, thank you. its sXe assholes that discourage people in society to go edge for fear they might be rejected and made fun of.
then go find some christians that believe that jesus is god and perfect and that you can't contradict him. shouldn't be hard. Not really sure how it's any different, since all anyone here is saying is that if you're going to be christian you should actually follow your religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by xMoranXArmyx
because you don't actually read or understand what's being discussed. I'm not really sure how it's unhelpful, since hardcore, punk and underground music in general has a really long and vocal history of being at best at odds with christianity and at worst very anti christian.Quote:
but no, i'm not an authoritarian either, and if you are gonna continue to argue with me, you will not break new ground. it's a lost cause. i'll just leave this forum, never to bother you guys again. However, i will say that this forum is extremely un-helpful. lol...what a crock of shit. to those in here who have been helpful, thank you. its sXe assholes that discourage people in society to go edge for fear they might be rejected and made fun of.
Oh, I didn't know playing notes of music in a specific order could be anti-christian.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
oh, I'm sure you're not aware that notes of music in a specific order have things called lyrics to accompany them.Quote:
Originally Posted by THEGROUPCONSCIOUS
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMoranXArmyx
Why not. They have no problem passing judgement on those that aren't. Fucking hypocrites.
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I think I have an idea of main arguments. I believe that a certain ammount of drinking is not immoral according to the Bible, but I have also decided not to consume alcohol because I don't want to be a part of that scene. How does being a Christian, in this sense, keep me from being sXe? Sorry if you already answered this question earlier, I didn't see anything that cleared this question up for me.
Dumb advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by xMoranXArmyx
Christians don't claim to be perfect. The "judgments" most Christians are passing when they are accused of being hypocrites, are only statements of thier beliefs about morality. Christians know they aren't able to live up to the standards that are set before them. No one can hope to live a perfect life (This is where a preacher would insert a message on grace). Christians are supposed to help people see what they are doing wrong to help them, not to hurt them. Not all Christians are good at this, but I don't think that's any reason to blow off all Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by stepinsideissue
-sorry if this is off topic
because people who are edge believe that any amount of drinking alcohol is wrong and shouldn't be consumed. This belief is in direct contradiction to the to your statement of " I believe that a certain ammount of drinking is not immoral according to the Bible,"Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
If that's the case, then what basis do athiests have for a moral objection to anyone drinking alcohol? Sure an athiest could choose to abstain from it, but they have no authority to claim that it is wrong for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
morals aren't defined purely by god. There's also no requirement of authority for someone to believe it's wrong for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Morals don't need to be defined by God, but an athiest claiming the existance of an absolute moral has no backing. A claim like that is just as true as a claim by any other athiest that says it's wrong to not drink. Your definition of sXe is messed up.
A christian claiming the existance of an absolute moral has the same amount of backing. Your concept is that because it comes from a religion that it somehow is more absolute or true than any other source, and that's just not true. And if you want to go down that road, then which religion would be able to claim absolute moralities? A religious person has the backings of writings from another religious person. That doesn't translate to "authority".Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
What does that have to do with my definition of sXe though? And how is it messed up?
I have a reason for believing what I do. That reason is my belief in God. An athiest does not believe God or gods exist; any moral they believe in does not come from anything but thier own mind, or the minds of other humans who influenced them. They can have thier own beliefs about what is good and what is bad, but those beliefs have no spiritual significance, and are only based on emotional or logical premises. Does this make sense?
You say that a Christian cannot be sXe because they do not believe that all drinking is wrong. Then I say that athiests can't be sXe because thier morals are based only in what they know, and they cannot know absolute truth. Any "morals" they have against drinking are invalid because they are really just opinions.
And yours doesn't come from anything better than what's dictated to you by other people. I'm not really sure what you're arguing. So I'm supposed to believe that morality determined by a persons experiences are somehow less valid than ones dictated to them by religious materials and people? That logic has no place in determining morality?Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
no I'm saying you can't be straight edge if you don't think drinking is wrong. And you can't think drinking is wrong if you're christian. The whole point is that straight edge as a subculture and a movement is extremely clearly anti drinking. Now if you disagree then why do you? What makes you think you can be straight edge and not be against drinking?Quote:
You say that a Christian cannot be sXe because they do not believe that all drinking is wrong. Then I say that athiests can't be sXe because thier morals are based only in what they know, and they cannot know absolute truth. Any "morals" they have against drinking are invalid because they are really just opinions.
Also what makes your version of absolute truth better than my verson of absolute truth? You don't know god. You have faith, but you don't have absolute knowledge. If you did, then everyone would believe as you do. But they don't.
Aristotle taught that there were three means of persuasion. These are logos, or logical; pathos, or emotional; and ethos, or ethical. Morals fall under an ethical form of persuasion. They deal with good and evil, and beliefs of a more spiritual nature. I claim that Athiests cannot argue for thier beliefs with moral arguments because they deny the existance of a god to base thier spiritual beliefs in. Logic is an entireley different catagory.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I would consider them beliefs rather than morals. Beliefs that a person develops from personal experience are most often either emotional or logical. If you see someone you love become an alcoholic, and decide not to drink based on that, then that is a predominatley emotional argument for your belief that drinking is wrong. If you don't drink because you know it will cause problems for you (work problems, health problems, relationship problems, etc.) then that is a belief based on a logical argument. If I were to not drink because I believed that God did not want me to, it would be a belief based on an ethical argument, and therefore a moral. These are just a few examples of how these types of arguments work to form beliefs that can cause a person to become straight edge, and are by no means comprehensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Here's the tricky part.I do think drinking is wrong (in a non-ethical way), and I am a Christian. My arguments for my beliefs against drinking are both emotional and logical. Christianity does not condemn drinking, and therefore Christians do not have to. Jesus did drink wine, but he did not have the same logical and emotional considerations I do. I do not think it was a sin for Jesus to drink.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I didn't think athiests had an absolute truth. How can you be sure of anything when all you have to rely on are human experiences? I have faith in God. That means that I can trust that he is there and that he is an eternal source of good and truth. Anything opposed to that is evil. I don't have absolute knowledge, but I know that absolute truth exists. I don't know it because I'm not perfect. My job as a Christian is to interpret that truth. If I had absolute knowledge, I would not need faith, and you're right, everyone would believe as I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I'm sorry if I've sounded pushy, I'm only trying to express my beliefs. I don't mean to sound disrespectful.
Dusty, you guys should make a new shirt design which says "jesus was anti-edge" i'd buy one
Maybe non-edge. I don't think Jesus would be against abstaining from sex, drugs, tobacco and alcohol.Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtD
sex has no relation to sxe.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
jesus encouraged people to drink, and made them drink.
here's the tricky part. you just think you are better than god. that's the whole point.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
I heard that staying away from promiscuous sex was a large part of sXe, but then again I also heard that I'm not sXe, so how much could I know?Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtD
If Jesus, in thier time and culture, telling his disciples to drink the wine that they were already drinking as a remembrance of him at the last supper before he was to be crucified qualifies Jesus as being opposed to a lifestyle that parallels the lifestyle his teachings would have us embrace, then I guess you can call him anti-edge.
you are clearly misinformed.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
his teachings aren't parallel to straight edge at all though!Quote:
If Jesus, in thier time and culture, telling his disciples to drink the wine that they were already drinking as a remembrance of him at the last supper before he was to be crucified qualifies Jesus as being opposed to a lifestyle that parallels the lifestyle his teachings would have us embrace, then I guess you can call him anti-edge.
Ethos meant character, ethikos refered to ethical.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
why do you need to believe in gods to have beliefs of wrong and right, i mean if you are an athiest its because you think its right so it negates your idea straight away. Just because an athiest doesn't act out of fear of eternal damnation doesn't mean they can't act. I mean medical science and past experiences don't equate to god, why can't that mold ethical thoughts of right and wrong?
But an athiest can believe things are morally wrong, morals aren't restricted to god and moral philoshophy is found at the base of biology, ecology, social science, law, politics etc. At that base level its about a rather logical process called meta-ethics, its at this point you could argue that nothing is ever right or wrong and its all relative to your individual, cultural or historical viewpoint - so it would be possible for you to say your gods wishes for you are not right or wrong but this would negate your religion. Of course instead of being realtive it could be argued that its absolute. To say its absolute is like the ideas of god creating the universe where god dictates right and wrong or philisophical naturalism where there is no bend in the idea that humanity is a natural phenomena that evolved naturally and where "good and evil are regarded as labels placed on how well individual behaviour conforms to societal expectations, and is the result of our psychology and socialization."Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
From this we have different roots of ethics or morals, absolutists will say that war, dictatorship and child abuse are inherently immoral regardless of intent. Of course when its moral relativism is in place its not necessary to reflect absoloute truths and there is in fact no need to contend opposing moral beliefs as they have no truth or value. It all becomes rather subjective and is still that there are no single source by which to judge moral truths and that it all comes down to societal convention and personal preference. Now obviously you being a christian are an absoloutist and like most christians its a graded absoloutism. Meaning that above all you serve a duty to god above your duty to fellow humans - now whilst that works fine in a moral heirachy to some it may seem etically unsound especially when they have no belief in your god but the point i'd like to make is that regarless of the morals being relative or absolute the morals dictated by god can only be absoloute yet for a moral to be absoloute it doesn't need to be dictated by god. For instance the human rights theory is a form of moral absoloutism based on human nature and its essence.
So its possible for a non drinking moral to be had both relatively and absoloutely, the reasons behind the moral are more than likely going to be relative in the first instance but as straight edge has become an established entity it is similar to the absoloute idea of human rights in which whilst the abstinance begins as a personal and relative choice you then claim to be a part of a more absoloute label in which you can't choose to change its inherent structure. I.e the idea of it being inherently tied to hardcore.
I don't think its a sin for jesus to drink either, in fact its quite clear that christianity is not against drinking but however you say that god has told you to not drink - thats a matter of your belief i don't really see how you have communicated with god but thats irrelevent. The point is you are no posting at a site which supports the condemnation of drinking so if christianity does not condemn drinking and you are a christian why are you at a site which catagorically states that its against drinking alcohol and believes it to be wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
But how is god any more substantial, its based on faith in other words a hope that he is right or a hope that he will guide you. Your faith is only based on human experiences, you trust he is there based only on experiences of other humans. It would seem that you are missing the point that the truth you hold is only relative within your absoloute moral framework, you are blinded to see that the idea of atheism and that its based on truths that are relative to itself, athiests aren't tied to one belief structure but the basis they have for denying the existance of god . There is no absoloute truth that god exists thus it cannot be anymore absoloute than a truth that says otherwise. What you have is faith based on human experiences not an absoloute truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
No you don't you just have faith that it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
If everyone knew that to be an absoloute truth everyone would believe it though but you do not know it to be absoloute truth at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke 21:34(NIV)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 13:13,14(NIV)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galatians 5:21
How is this so far from straight edge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans 14:21
It doesn't mention hardcore, the reasons straightedge came around were different and were a reaction to a nihilistic attitude already present in the punk scene, it also reacted to the youthful immpresionism that invokes peer pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Sex has nothing to do with straightedge and in fact we would need to define exactly what god meant as sexual immorality in order to make further discourse. But let it be said the idea of sex outside of marriage being a sin is hugely wrong for me and i'm sure many others hence why they engage in the activity.
There are fits of rage, anger and hatred present in hardcore music, this is a sin.
Straightedge doesn't make comment on eating meat, however perhaps if christianity says its not good christians should stop eating meat?
Straight edge and christianity are vastly different and to fit one to the other is a futile process.
The word ethical comes from the greek word ethikos. I'm talking about Aristotle's Rhetoric. You obviously don't understand that all the arguments you are making have nothing to do with any stance you have taken to actual good and evil. In a world without spiritual authority, there is no good and evil. Killing a person would not be evil because it would not be going against any established good. It may be wrong on a logical basis that one person doesn't have the right to take another's life, or wrong based on an emotional argument that said murder victim was emotionally attatched to others, but an athiest cannot claim to have beliefs that are based on the spiritual good and evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by straightXed
I'm not saying that God has told me to not drink. I'm saying that I have decided not to drink on a purely logical and emotional basis. There is no morality involved in that.Quote:
but however you say that god has told you to not drink - thats a matter of your belief i don't really see how you have communicated with god but thats irrelevent.
No, an athiest can believe that things are logically wrong, or are wrong because they offend emotionally, but those arguments are not moral arguments.Quote:
But an athiest can believe things are morally wrong,
Not at all. If you are an athiest, it is not because you believe it is right spiritually to be so. It is only because you are logically convinced that it is true. I still think that athiesm is incredibly silly. Most athiests deny that thier beliefs are based on faith, but no one has actually ever proven that no god exists. I have more respect for agnostics who understand that if It could actually be proven that God did not exist, we would all be athiests.Quote:
i mean if you are an athiest its because you think its right so it negates your idea straight away.
:) I know because I have faithQuote:
No you don't you just have faith that it does.
This is a much better argument against the combatibility of sXe and Christianity. The "Jesus drank" thing doesn't hold up.Quote:
It doesn't mention hardcore
The Bible says that it is good not to, it doesn't say it's wrong to eat meat.Quote:
Straightedge doesn't make comment on eating meat, however perhaps if christianity says its not good christians should stop eating meat?
Except you clearly state that ethos refered to ethical when infact it refers to charcater and is the greek for character. Think before you post.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Yers there is its just not spiritual but well done for ingnoring that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Yes it would be going against established good made by either societal expectations, such as human right infringement and law or by a personal more subjective slant. Again well done for ignoring that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Good and evil isn't based only in spirituality, what you are caliming is that ethical good and evil are only apparent to christians or religious folk which is short sighted. And prooves you haven't understood that there are different ways to arrive at ethics and morals. Again, well done for be ignorant to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Are you telling me you can't think its morally wrong to have alcohol (with its major negative reprecussions and and influence in drink driving and drunken and domestic violence) as a legal part of society?Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Thats because you don't know what morals an athiest has, are you saying i have no morals because i don't believe there is a god?Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
flawed because morals don't have to resemble spirituality.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
No, you need to understand that a moral can equate to a personal principle. And its hardly supprising that a guy blinded by his own faith things athiesm is silly especially when he can't even understand that morals and ethics live outside of spirituality.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Well that would depend on your definition of faith, for instance "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing" is faith, however the idea that you have faith in something that is not proven shows something else, that whilst an athiest will state there is no god to believe you will state there is and firther more go on to follow a large structured religion based on that. your faith is the theological virtue defined as secure belief in god and a trusting acceptance of god's will. So when both an athiest and a christian are basing their beliefs on trust and confidence in the unknown how can an athiest be without faith? Its just placed elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
Well personally i see the evidence stacked slightly more in the favour of athiests myself but i tend not to trouble a great deal of my time deliberating over something which will be revealed on my death. I'm not going to spend my live in fear of something that is so unsure and based on such shoddy ideas because i think that the idea of christianity is somewhat morally wrong at least in todays world.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
well done for missing all the points raised in my post but at least you agree you don't have an absoloute truth because faith in one doesn't constitute it being absoloute.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
it does hold up if you are saying that jesus is wrong and that you shouldn't drink.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
The bible says you should be good, if this is a description of a good act why aren't you doing it? But it still has nothing to do with being straightedge.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim
And thanks again for being incomplete in your responses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xMoranXArmyx
Who the fuck are you as a christian to tell another christian how to live thier life. There is NO diffrence.
Being Christian and edge is a possibility. Especially if straight edge for you is a choice made for one's self and not a choice made for everyone else in the world.
nope. and nope. Unless you want to explain to me how straight edge talks about drinking in moderation being a good idea. Lyrics, zines, etc. That the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone didn't drink. Straight edge is an extreme stance. It's something that happens when someone feels strongly about a subject. If you didn't you wouldn't allign yourself with a group that is so blatantly and unapologetically anti-alcohol, tobacco and drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by xdoylex
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
I do take a stand on those things. I don't hang out with people if they make fucked up choices around me and I tell them exactly what i think about that shit. Especially, lately, I've seen alot of people who used to be edge sell out and start smoking pot and stupid shit like that just because the scene isn't has active locally any more because we had a couple venues close down.
sXe is still alive and kicking in me because I know what I stand for. And you can bet your ass i dont apologize for it.
so you think jesus was wrong and you'd take a stand against him about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by xdoylex
If you want to get technical about this issue of Christ drinking wine, there are a few things you might want to consider...
Red wine was the only chosen drink of Christ or any of His disciples... The alcohol content of this wine was dramatically lower than the content of today's wine, and... Physiologically speaking, very moderate wine drinking is actually quite healthy. It provides lots of antioxidants to your body, and is very healthy for your heart. It's also a very cleansing drink.
Now, for me... I cannot safely drink any type of wine. My personality doesn't mix with it -- but this whole, "Jesus drank wine" as some form of contradiction or life choice that does not coincide with sXe lifestyle is actually not founded in anything factual...
Now, to finish this topic... Most hardcore sXe people seem to have a problem with Christians due to Christians using God as some crutch in their lives... Like a drug -- to say that in times of stress or less, Christians weakly rely on God -- the more the stress, the more God they need -- just like a drug, thus... Fucking your head up.
This makes sense -- and is actually true in a lot of cases, but a *true* Christian isn't like this.
A true Christian loves and embraces God no matter the circumstances, and does not use God as some crutch.
You can be a Straightedge Christian...
your statement is wrong. John the baptist didn't drink alcohol. Now, how is jesus drinking wine and someone who's straight edge who believes that drinking wine isn't contradictory? You're still saying your god is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by xriseupx
A true christian also wouldn't disagree with god or think they can be right about something and god can be wrong.Quote:
Now, to finish this topic... Most hardcore sXe people seem to have a problem with Christians due to Christians using God as some crutch in their lives... Like a drug -- to say that in times of stress or less, Christians weakly rely on God -- the more the stress, the more God they need -- just like a drug, thus... Fucking your head up.
This makes sense -- and is actually true in a lot of cases, but a *true* Christian isn't like this.
A true Christian loves and embraces God no matter the circumstances, and does not use God as some crutch.
You can be a Straightedge Christian...
Alright, I’ll totally level with all of you. I haven’t read all of the posts. I got bored after the first six pages, and had many thoughts of my own. I’ve read the last several to make sure the argument hasn’t changed, and it doesn’t appear to have done so. So here’s me, and this is what I think.
I’m SxE. I’m published in my views on this, and though it’s only a college newspaper, my community knows where I stand. I’m much hated for it, as my community is rumored to have the second highest alcohol consumption per capita in the world. It may not be true, but that rumor does float around, and the community is terrible for it. Anyways…
I’m not a Christian. I believe in a god and I don’t hold with religions. That’s a book’s worth of explanations itself. However, in my opinion, it’s perfectly logical that one could be Christian and Straight Edge. I’ve read what I think is the working argument, and I know this is already making you all jump up and down, but give me a few minutes before you jump all over me and hear me out.
Ok, so what I’ve seen as the base argument is that one cannot follow Jesus (for he imbibed alcohol, though it never directly says that either, but that is what’s being assumed) and be SxE. But because one follows someone, must they in turn be responsible for all of that person’s shortcomings? Must they be a direct translation of that person? I’d hope not, because as much as I’ve personally tried in my foolish youth, I’ve learned nothing if not that becoming someone else totally is impossible.
And these people aren’t trying. Being Christian does not mean trying to become Christ. That would be nuts. My understanding is of course limited, so I’ll admit it, I could be wrong. But this is what I see, and this is how I live SxE.
While being Straight Edge has a lot to do with ideas, it’s actions that count. As far as SxE and religion go, so long as one’s religious practice does not cause them to violate the ideals of Straight Edge, they are in fact both. Now, I realize that some Christianity does require the consumption of wine in communion and The Lord’s Supper and that stuff, and that wouldn’t be acceptable. One would have to choose. If I were in that position, I’d seriously question my faith. So I see where those that say no are coming from, and that much makes sense.
However, I’m quite bothered by the fact that several of the previously cited group infer that to be Straight Edge, one must hate and disrespect non-members. That is bogus. To be Straight Edge is to live and think a certain way, regardless of those around you, and to let your community know where you stand, as well as advocate the position you hold. I’ve seen nothing that tells me to hate others. I realize that SxE isn’t about acceptance either, and I’ve never said it was. I don’t accept what others do into my own life, but I can’t change them, and I can’t hate them for it. People are human, a handicap we ALL share, and everyone has their vices.
An example in my life would be my mentor. He is one of the wisest men I’ve ever known, and I esteem him beyond most men living. To my deep sorrow, he drinks on slight occasion, and while it occurs less times in a year than I have fingers on my hands, it still bothers me. I’m not defending him, and I disagree with what he does. He knows that, and respects me for my belief. I respect him enough to leave him to his. I see him as my role model, though I omit that part of his life from mine. I’m still SxE; I still hold to my beliefs, practice them, and advocate them to my community. I keep my body pure, to the point of obsession. That, alas, in yet another story, and I digress.
Sadly, not all of my friends follow me in my SxE beliefs. I still love them. I don’t like what they do, and they know that, but I don’t hate them for it. I abstain, keep myself pure, and practice and advocate my beliefs. I say this with great fervor, not because I believe that SxE is about acceptance, but because I don’t believe the word hardcore equals hate or disrespect. I say this because of the hatred I’ve received from my family and community, the lack of respect for our cause because of the hatred of SxE members in my town, and in respect for the Buddhist monks that really define hardcore.
There, I’m done. Say what you like.
It doesn't matter that wine can provide antioxidants. There are lots of non alcoholic items that provide the same antioxidants and give the same benifit to the human heart, what does matter is that it is an alcoholic drink that is drank recreationally and thus goes completely against what straightedge stands for.Quote:
Originally Posted by xriseupx
So are you saying a lower ammount of alcohol is ok? What volume of alcohol is ok?
The fact that jesus is saying wine is ok and straightedge says its really not ok at all does tend to put you in a position of either saying jesus is wrong or trying to claim straightedge and drink wine. But then you get on to all the other reasons why strtaightedge and christianity don't fit.
So you are saying the bible isn't factual, thats fine i agree but a christian believes jesus and his actions to be right and true, where as a straightedge kid believes the consumption of wine to be wrong so say hello to the contradiction that doesn't coincide. Straightedge kids think jesus's actions are wrong, to claim to be christian there after would mean you are claiming to be christian even though you believe his actions were wrong. It unravels the core premise of the religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by xriseupx
Quote:
Originally Posted by xriseupx
Well the religion is based on providing a crutch based on its coercive teachings, and they teach you to embrace god fully. This is crutch like and people rely on there faith to see the world in a "better" way, they use the idea of heaven as an incentive to put worth into their life, the teachings of christ give direction to how they should live. They have this ambiguous god to put in place of all the unanswerable questions and to show some kind of psuedo illumination to the fear of the unknown which is comforting and crutch like. It answers the questions it knows you will ask at your most vunerable and gives you an answer which you want to hear, its well designed although a rather archaic control method for todays world. Its not so much weakness as a natural reaction to have these feelings but to allieviate them with religion does make religion crutch like, its designed to do just that and gives you this sense of being on the right and true path. And you can embrace it completely no matter what and its still a crutch, its still a structure that people rely on to resolve equivocal spiritual matters. However i don't believe thats the main problem at all.
No, you can't. Jesus drank wine, is jesus wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by xriseupx
no that's not the base argument at all. you also just said that jesus had short comings, which he can't if he's divine. The actual base argument is that if you are jesus you can't disagree with or believe/think/act as though you are right and he is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raeus
but being christian does mean accepting that jesus was divine and all of his actions were correct, just and should be the basis of all of your thoughts on anything, since he was, well, perfect.Quote:
And these people aren’t trying. Being Christian does not mean trying to become Christ. That would be nuts. My understanding is of course limited, so I’ll admit it, I could be wrong. But this is what I see, and this is how I live SxE.
It's not all religion that's the issue. It's one specific one, with one specific set of beliefs that are actually counter straight edge.Quote:
While being Straight Edge has a lot to do with ideas, it’s actions that count. As far as SxE and religion go, so long as one’s religious practice does not cause them to violate the ideals of Straight Edge, they are in fact both. Now, I realize that some Christianity does require the consumption of wine in communion and The Lord’s Supper and that stuff, and that wouldn’t be acceptable. One would have to choose. If I were in that position, I’d seriously question my faith. So I see where those that say no are coming from, and that much makes sense.
Where did anyone say that "one must hate and disrespect non-members"?Quote:
However, I’m quite bothered by the fact that several of the previously cited group infer that to be Straight Edge, one must hate and disrespect non-members. That is bogus. To be Straight Edge is to live and think a certain way, regardless of those around you, and to let your community know where you stand, as well as advocate the position you hold. I’ve seen nothing that tells me to hate others. I realize that SxE isn’t about acceptance either, and I’ve never said it was. I don’t accept what others do into my own life, but I can’t change them, and I can’t hate them for it. People are human, a handicap we ALL share, and everyone has their vices.