if it's not immoral, then why don't you do it, and then why would you align yourself with a movement that clearly believes that it is?Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
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if it's not immoral, then why don't you do it, and then why would you align yourself with a movement that clearly believes that it is?Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
I don't do it because it is wrong for me. It stands in the way of my goals. And like I asked in my last post: please prove where sxe says that anyone else drinking in moderation is immoral and that sxe is not a personal choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
Because straight edge doesn't advocate moderation. Unless you want to try and argue that it does then be my guest.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
Also how is it wrong for you, but right for other people? And again, if that's the case then why would you align yourself with a group that clearly believes that drinking, all drinking is wrong.
No, it doesn't advocate moderation, you're right. But I've never met a person who drinks in moderation and calls themselves sxe.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
It is wrong for me because it doesn't fall in line with my goals. It may be right for someone else because it's what they want to do.
And I'm still waiting for proof that straight edge is more than a personal choice.
Ok. so it doesn't advocate moderation and makes pretty strong and repeated statements on the evil/immorally of alcohol, but you're waiting on me to prove what to you? I can bring up a fuckload of lyrics if you'd like. So how can it be right for someone else? Can you find me anything that says "i'm straight edge, I think drinking is bad for me, but alcohol is a-ok for everyone else"Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
and I'm not even sure what you're asking for in terms of proof that straight edge is more than a personal choice? What does a personal choice mean to you? What kind of choice isn't personal in terms of lifestyle? I notice you're not trying to prove that straight edge isn't saying that drinking is wrong, so I guess you concede then, huh.
Yes, yes I can. Ian Mackaye on his non-edge friends in an interview dated Jan. 3,Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
1996: "They respected our decision, and they were our friends. It was more about respecting each others individual choices, rather than getting totally obsessed with distractions." He goes on to talk about how some people took it to militant extremes. Then he says "From my point of view, I am not interested in intolerance. I am interested in respect for people's decisions in their lives. I have my own opinions, and I live my own fucking life by those opinions." He then goes on to say that he thought "vegetarianism was a logical step for straight edge." However he explains that when he speaks about straight edge, he is speaking about HIS OWN IDEAS on straight edge and he's not trying to start rules.
So why is it that the person who originally got the ball rolling for sxe can say that it's not about passing judgement, it's about what's right for yourself and just to respect others decisions but somehow you feel like you can define straight edge for others?
If I'm not mistaken, the whole straight edge thing started as an "f the status quo" thing. It came out of punk/hardcore kids who weren't into getting stoned and drunk and were tired of getting made fun of by people for it. Now they had a place to go and a community. Some militants took it further. I've been to places where my friends have knocked beer out of people's hands just because. I've seen edge kids start fist fights with people because they were smoking a cigarette. Does this mean that if you're not kicking everyone with a beer or cigarette's ass that you're not straight edge?
So if the beliefs that I hold don't fall in line with your beliefs on Dusty Edge... sorry I mean Straight Edge, then that's not the end of the world. I will continue to call myself Straight Edge if I so choose. I didn't associate myself with straight edge in order to recieve criticism from some militant sxe kids, or a 28 year old man in your case. I did it in order to disassociate myself with people our age who go to the bar every weekend.
So back to topic, yes, it is possible to be Christian and Straight Edge simultaneously. It does not contradict itself.
Personal choice in terms of what is good for you does not mean that others have to do it. Drinking is not good for me. It does not fit in with my goals or lifestyle. Therefore I am staunchly against alcohol or drugs entering into my body. You want to do it? Go ahead, I'll respect your decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsecx
And by the way, although I repeatedly asked you for evidence stating that the rules of straight edge include drinking being immoral, you have yet to present any. I don't want it, because it will just be one man or one band or a group of bands individual thoughts and interpretations of straight edge. For as many bands that you can come up with that preach militant straight edge beliefs, there are just as many straight edge bands that preach tolerance.
I am done with this argument. If you'd like to think that I concede then that's fine. I can not dissuade you from your beliefs just as you can not dissuade me from mine. But I hope that the original poster of this thread and those who were wondering whether or not you can be straight edge and Christian simultaneously learned something from this thread and will make their own decision. The question is "Can you be Christian and still justify calling yourself straight edge?" It is not "If you're Christian, will anyone else find fault with you being straight edge?"
Sorry but i'm failing to see who is being militant here and i'm failing to see where you have shown that anyone is saying that drinking is ok. Tollerating and accepting peoples decisions doesn't mean you feel they are ok or right - it just accepts the fact that you shouldn't go around beating people up for that decision. In 1996 iam mackaye hasn't really got much relavance in straightedge in terms of what the movement had grown into by that point, whilst he still talks about it not being about him trying to make rules the straightedge movement had become about certain things which were essentially rules. You can't drink and be straightedge thats pretty much a rule to its definition, with ian's personal idea it leaves it open to complete interpretation. Its his personal views but for 20 years there have been definite ideas/rules that the straightedge kids have agreed upon in terms of straightedge and that has constantly been reflected in the music.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
You can can be straightedge and a christian that doesn't follow the life of a christian or a straightedge kid that drinks and follows the life of a christian - on both instances there is a definite contradiction.
Yeah but i could personally call myself straightedge and then not follow the set out idea of living by the definition of what straightedge is thus making it a personal choice to be wrong, pretty much like you and the christian thing. When you make a personal choice to be straightedge you are adhering to a collective thought of the lifestyle, if you don't agree with how the straightedge movement pans out then you wouldn't or shouldn't choose to call yourself straightedge. And again respecting people for their descisions isn't you saying that its right, ok you can see how they got to their decision and you aren't about to beat them for their choices but i'm guessing you don't think its the best decision and that infact drinking isn't the right thing to do. Not everyone chooses straightedge but when they do it is a personal choice that connects you to something larger than personal thought, its collective thought and whilst it remains a personal choice for you to be a part of it, it is definitely defined by the actions and beleifs of the people involved. Thats why people can't call themselves straightedge and have the odd drink because whilst on a personal level they could it wouldn't work within the ideas behind the movement of straightedge.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
Tollerance isn't the issue, they still aren't saying drinking is ok, this isn't a millitant topic here, its funny how you complain that theres no evidence and then say you don't want any evidence because its wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
And the answer to both is no, not really. You decided to turn it as more of a personal thing when people find illogical flaws in your beliefs but you should be open to people finding fault in them unless you wish to live with fault and continually turn a blind eye to it. Not very christian by its nature but there you go. I think the reason you conceded was you were unable to provide a solid argument from what i read, i feel it remains that the two contradict each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
I know this is a hard concept to get your head around, but respecting the choices of others isn't the same as condoning them or agreeing with them. At no point is anyone who's straightedge are they saying, "yes I think drinking is great and everyone but me should do it". Of course we don't. And the reason we don't is because we all agree that drinking is wrong, but we also think that enforcing those beliefs isn't right or practical. So you associate with straight edge because you don't want to associate yourself with people who go to bars every weekend, but you're somehow going to try and say that you respect their choices?Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
so much so that you refuse to associate with them? Do you think the world would be a better place without alcohol or drugs? Or would it not be any different?Quote:
Personal choice in terms of what is good for you does not mean that others have to do it. Drinking is not good for me. It does not fit in with my goals or lifestyle. Therefore I am staunchly against alcohol or drugs entering into my body. You want to do it? Go ahead, I'll respect your decision.
Well no, you repeatedly asked for evidence that it's not a personal choice. Which, since it's a lifestyle, really isn't possible, since all lifestyles are personal choices. I've asked you for examples of people edge bands promoting drinking, and the best you can do is come up with an interview with a guy who has said repeatedly that he never wanted to start a movement, doesn't like what it's become and has had nothing to do with it for 20 years. The reality of the situation is that straight edge DOES believe that drinking is wrong and immoral. If we didn't, we'd all drink moderately. but we don't. WE all agree that drinking is wrong and that it's a distraction. You can try and play word games all you want, but it still leaves you back at the exact same place.Quote:
And by the way, although I repeatedly asked you for evidence stating that the rules of straight edge include drinking being immoral, you have yet to present any. I don't want it, because it will just be one man or one band or a group of bands individual thoughts and interpretations of straight edge. For as many bands that you can come up with that preach militant straight edge beliefs, there are just as many straight edge bands that preach tolerance.
The actual question is, can I be a good christian and be at odds with the behavior of my own god? The answer to that is pretty obvious. You still haven't gotten around the fact and issue that by your own admission you think something your god did was wrong. Or at the very least something you wouldn't do yourself (word game)Quote:
I am done with this argument. If you'd like to think that I concede then that's fine. I can not dissuade you from your beliefs just as you can not dissuade me from mine. But I hope that the original poster of this thread and those who were wondering whether or not you can be straight edge and Christian simultaneously learned something from this thread and will make their own decision. The question is "Can you be Christian and still justify calling yourself straight edge?" It is not "If you're Christian, will anyone else find fault with you being straight edge?"
i missed the part of christian life that says you have to drink. seriously, christian lifestyle doesn't conflict with sXe lifestyle.Quote:
Originally Posted by straightXed
Drunkenness (note: I'm not saying drinking) is considered a sin and mentioned several times in the Bible. But I'm still done with the arguing part.Quote:
Originally Posted by collin
exactly. and jesus wasn't drunk...Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
The beliefs do contradict each other, cvhristianity doesn't have a problem with drinking straightedge does. To be both you would be saying that one or the other beliefs are wrong about drinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by collin
missing the point aren't you, you are straightedge because youbelieve drinking is wrong and that is not the belief put forth in christianity, so they contradict each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by collin
if you're done with the arguing part, then why continue to post? Clearly points have been raised that you simply can't or don't want to answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbatmanx
I think you guys are interpretting the Bible too literally. The church stopped the tedious practice of following every detail found in the scripture in the Dark Ages. Even Protestantism rejects strict adherence to scripture and is based on the principle of salvation by faith alone, in other words, faith in Christ is all that matters. Refusing to drink is in no way a rejection of Christianity. Most churches even substitute grape juice for wine when giving communion because they're purpose is not to encourage the consumption of alcohol. Such a substitution isn't considered a rejection of religious tradition. The Puritans and other more strict protestant sects forebid the cosnumption of alcohol as a sin.
My point is this, Christianity (as well as other religions, I'd imagine) are based more on morality, charity, and faith, not obscure details that have no bearing on the modern Christian's faith and worship. The way some people base their entire understanding and subsequent condemnation of religion on these details is the kind of stuff that makes sXe look like a bunch of militants and radicals and totally goes against the way sXe is supposed to accept anyone that has had enough of everyone around them destroying each other with drugs, smokes, and booze.
Christianity has the potential to help an individual become a better person, and I think some people here are forgetting that the real enemy has gotta be people who wanna drive everyone to be drunk and high.