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mouseman004
04-05-2011, 11:27 AM
Not to get all teen highschool angsty or anything, but right now I hate women. About a month ago I met this girl who seemed awesome. We talked for hours every day, hungout every weekend. When we started talking she was "kind of" seeing some guy. Before I let it go anywhere I told her I wasn't interested in stealing somebody's girlfriend and she told me that she hasn't had feelings for this guy in while and she ended things with him. Anyways, long story short, after taking her out for her birthday and having an awesome night with her, the next day I get a text that says we need to stop seeing each other because she still has feelings for this other guy and wants to try to work things out.

Now I realise this doesn't seem like a big deal to others, I was only seeing her for 4 weeks, who cares. But the reason I am so rattled really has nothing to do with this girl specifically, but is because this almost exact situation happened to me about 2 years ago (with a girl I was in love with) and it killed me back then. I haven't let myself get attached to anyone since then. After this new girl initiates everything with me I finally decide it is okay to allow myself to get attached/involved with someone again, and this is what I get for it.

rodrigo
04-05-2011, 11:37 AM
Not to get all teen highschool angsty or anything, but right now I hate women. About a month ago I met this girl who seemed awesome. We talked for hours every day, hungout every weekend. When we started talking she was "kind of" seeing some guy. Before I let it go anywhere I told her I wasn't interested in stealing somebody's girlfriend and she told me that she hasn't had feelings for this guy in while and she ended things with him. Anyways, long story short, after taking her out for her birthday and having an awesome night with her, the next day I get a text that says we need to stop seeing each other because she still has feelings for this other guy and wants to try to work things out.

Now I realise this doesn't seem like a big deal to others, I was only seeing her for 4 weeks, who cares. But the reason I am so rattled really has nothing to do with this girl specifically, but is because this almost exact situation happened to me about 2 years ago (with a girl I was in love with) and it killed me back then. I haven't let myself get attached to anyone since then. After this new girl initiates everything with me I finally decide it is okay to allow myself to get attached/involved with someone again, and this is what I get for it.

that's ass. i've been down that road recently and it sucks balls.

xCrucialDudex
04-05-2011, 11:57 AM
Not to get all teen highschool angsty or anything, but right now I hate women. About a month ago I met this girl who seemed awesome. We talked for hours every day, hungout every weekend. When we started talking she was "kind of" seeing some guy. Before I let it go anywhere I told her I wasn't interested in stealing somebody's girlfriend and she told me that she hasn't had feelings for this guy in while and she ended things with him. Anyways, long story short, after taking her out for her birthday and having an awesome night with her, the next day I get a text that says we need to stop seeing each other because she still has feelings for this other guy and wants to try to work things out.

Now I realise this doesn't seem like a big deal to others, I was only seeing her for 4 weeks, who cares. But the reason I am so rattled really has nothing to do with this girl specifically, but is because this almost exact situation happened to me about 2 years ago (with a girl I was in love with) and it killed me back then. I haven't let myself get attached to anyone since then. After this new girl initiates everything with me I finally decide it is okay to allow myself to get attached/involved with someone again, and this is what I get for it.

Never talk for hours every day with a girl you've just met (until you've been seeing her for some reasonable time).
Never hang out with a girl more than once a week at max (until you've been seeing her for some reasonable time).
Never tell a girl you're not going to steal someone's girlfriend. She doesn't care if you try, she doesn't care if you fail to.
Do not take her out on her birthday when you've been seeing her for 4 weeks max.

What you got was expected. Why? What you were doing was saying all the wrong things. Next time try this instead:

- Talk to a girl you've just met only a couple (2) of times a week for 5 min at max. Mainly to set up a date. Don't call to just talk about random things, when you're bored or need love, if you know what I mean.
- See her just once a week for first 10-12 dates or so. Then gradually ramp up the frequency to two dates a week, then three and so on.
- It's not your obligation to inform her what you think about her boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, you as a couple (unless she's asking you outright), if you experienced in kissing, sex etc.
- Never assume things, do not get your hope high, do not (at least try your best) attach to anyone. It's quite possible to enjoy the relationship without being emotionally attached to a person. With a little effort you should be able to do this.

And, yes, I'm pretty serious about it all. Might save you some time, head and heartache next time :)

Lifestyle_X
04-05-2011, 04:07 PM
Yeah he can try that, but it's still no guaranty that the same thing won't happen again. It's hard to keep your emotions on a leash. That is, for me.. But hey, maybe the next girl is perfect. It's impossible to know, but better so maybe. Or maybe take a break for a while.
You know what? Just do whatever you like to do! As long as you're happy and enjoy life and forget about shitty times like this. Kick some ass dude!

xsecx
04-05-2011, 06:49 PM
Never talk for hours every day with a girl you've just met (until you've been seeing her for some reasonable time).
Never hang out with a girl more than once a week at max (until you've been seeing her for some reasonable time).
Never tell a girl you're not going to steal someone's girlfriend. She doesn't care if you try, she doesn't care if you fail to.
Do not take her out on her birthday when you've been seeing her for 4 weeks max.

What you got was expected. Why? What you were doing was saying all the wrong things. Next time try this instead:

- Talk to a girl you've just met only a couple (2) of times a week for 5 min at max. Mainly to set up a date. Don't call to just talk about random things, when you're bored or need love, if you know what I mean.
- See her just once a week for first 10-12 dates or so. Then gradually ramp up the frequency to two dates a week, then three and so on.
- It's not your obligation to inform her what you think about her boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, you as a couple (unless she's asking you outright), if you experienced in kissing, sex etc.
- Never assume things, do not get your hope high, do not (at least try your best) attach to anyone. It's quite possible to enjoy the relationship without being emotionally attached to a person. With a little effort you should be able to do this.

And, yes, I'm pretty serious about it all. Might save you some time, head and heartache next time :)


so how's the mindgames thing working out for you?

xsecx
04-05-2011, 07:00 PM
Not to get all teen highschool angsty or anything, but right now I hate women. About a month ago I met this girl who seemed awesome. We talked for hours every day, hungout every weekend. When we started talking she was "kind of" seeing some guy. Before I let it go anywhere I told her I wasn't interested in stealing somebody's girlfriend and she told me that she hasn't had feelings for this guy in while and she ended things with him. Anyways, long story short, after taking her out for her birthday and having an awesome night with her, the next day I get a text that says we need to stop seeing each other because she still has feelings for this other guy and wants to try to work things out.

Now I realise this doesn't seem like a big deal to others, I was only seeing her for 4 weeks, who cares. But the reason I am so rattled really has nothing to do with this girl specifically, but is because this almost exact situation happened to me about 2 years ago (with a girl I was in love with) and it killed me back then. I haven't let myself get attached to anyone since then. After this new girl initiates everything with me I finally decide it is okay to allow myself to get attached/involved with someone again, and this is what I get for it.

that's ass dude. One time I was out west working and starting seeing a girl from work. On one of the following trips rather than getting a hotel, I stayed with her. I thought things were going great. She apparently didn't. About halfway through the trip, she cut things off. Not only was it a giant kick in the nuts, but it also meant I had to still stay there for a few days because there were no available hotel rooms.

In hindsight, I don't think there's much I could do. All you can do is do your thing, hope the person you're seeing is being honest. Shutting yourself away won't protect you. It won't keep you safe. It just means that if someone awesome does come, you'll miss out because you're too worried about getting hurt.

xCrucialDudex
04-05-2011, 10:17 PM
Yeah he can try that, but it's still no guaranty that the same thing won't happen again. It's hard to keep your emotions on a leash. That is, for me.. But hey, maybe the next girl is perfect. It's impossible to know, but better so maybe. Or maybe take a break for a while.
You know what? Just do whatever you like to do! As long as you're happy and enjoy life and forget about shitty times like this. Kick some ass dude!

Yep, no guarantee. Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics. However, this approach raises once chances to build and keep a girl's interest significantly. Keeping emotions on a leash is a tough feat, but it's not nearly as good to let them run you in a lot of situations in life such as emergency, public speaking, fight, etc. So, why indulge here, if clearly this only ruins everything most of the time?

And hey, as much as I want to believe this no girl is perfect. Girls are just human beings. I know, this is very profound. However, it's so true if you think about it. They're just as insecure, inexperienced in many respects as guys are. Besides, a lot of girls have something about their plans, personality, worldview, etc. that may make it hard for you two to build a " perfect relationship". Not that such thing can exist.. but you get where I'm going with this.

Everyone should do whatever they're pleased to do (unless hurting/disturbing others), but if what you're doing doesn't work SYSTEMATICALLY maybe it's time to ask yourself why and try to do things differently? :)

xCrucialDudex
04-05-2011, 10:19 PM
so how's the mindgames thing working out for you?

It's a completely different approach and mindset. Social dynamics, if you will.

xCrucialDudex
04-05-2011, 10:28 PM
And hey mouseman you don't have to take my word for it. At least keep in mind what I said up there and take a look around and see who girls are really attracted to. What types of guys? What are they doing? Do they call them often? Do they see them often? What do they tell them and what they're talking about with them? Don't get this wrong, however, I'm talking only about that time when people only start seeing each other. When time goes by, this approach I outlined up above will actually backfire on you. In essence, you'll need to do things differently then. But before that, it's just about the best you could do.

Lifestyle_X
04-06-2011, 04:18 AM
No offense, but you make it sound like a guide. Every girl is unique, like every guy is too. Just let him do it in his own way.

xCrucialDudex
04-06-2011, 05:19 AM
No offense, but you make it sound like a guide. Every girl is unique, like every guy is too. Just let him do it in his own way.

You see, if you really think about it and look around, and scrutinize what's happening between people, in the course of their social interactions, you will see patterns, structures. That which is repeated and predicted. Moreover, you'll notice that certain patterns and structures act as triggers. In fact, anything you do has some kind of effect. Now, I'm not championing the idea that you have to learn every communication/interaction pattern there is out there and start using it in an emotionally detached way as if you're doing math. No, all I'm saying is that most guys, people for that matter, are not aware of this stuff, and that knowing something like this helps understand what's happening in their dating/personal life better.

Those numbers and actions I mentioned are not instructions, rather guidelines that, after a lot of trial and error, I realized made sense and "worked" in most of the situations. The whole deal is a lot more complex, sticking rigidly to this shadow of strategy won't work with every girl you meet. You'll have to develop a sense of when to call, when to see her, what and when to do. For someone who's having trouble to even start a relationship or just get a girl he likes to consistently meet him sticking with some sort of set of rules of thumb isn't such a bad idea at all.

Again, if you think it's nonsense, go ahead and conduct a social experiment. Approach a girl, get her numbers, and call her the same day to set up a date this same date, or the next one (this might work). Then call her each day and talk about whatever's on your mind. Pay attention to how fast she's losing interest, and when she finally shuts down on you completely.

Then, or parallel to that, do the same with another girl, only this time stick to the guidelines I gave up above. Pay attention to the same things again.

It'd be best if you did this with 5-10 girls to get more accurate results. If you're brave enough, you might discover that whether we like it or not, there are some sort of social laws that govern how fast we may get intimate and close with other people, how they find us interesting or boring, etc.

And, we had this argument on this forum here before, if everyone's unique that defies the very definition of uniqueness. People share a lot more of common characteristics than they have unique ones.

And, again, if that what he's doing isn't working, just repeating that course of action isn't going to alter the end result.

:)

Lifestyle_X
04-06-2011, 05:41 AM
Euhm, I'm not gonna do this little 'experiment'. Actually, I don't know any friends or guys around here that do this :

Approach a girl, get her numbers, and call her the same day to set up a date this same date, or the next one (this might work). Then call her each day and talk about whatever's on your mind. Pay attention to how fast she's losing interest, and when she finally shuts down on you completely.

And I don't think this is the mouseman his actual 'problem'. It's the fact that this second girl also fucked him over with another guy, but it wasn't his fault. You can't control that you know.

xCrucialDudex
04-06-2011, 06:16 AM
Euhm, I'm not gonna do this little 'experiment'. Actually, I don't know any friends or guys around here that do this :

True, that's an extreme example, however, there are people who do that. For the sake of the "experiment", if you do this, you'll notice how fast girls tend to run away from guys who do all these things, too soon and too much. Alternatively, if you did it differently, as I described before, you would most likely see a tremendous difference in response. All this should give you a good insight into how things like how frequently you talk to a girl, how frequently you call her and have physical interactions in real world with her influence her interest, and ultimately attraction towards you.

It's sad that you're not up to this yet, you're just postponing the inevitable realization that I'm sure will come to you sooner or later.



And I don't think this is the mouseman his actual 'problem'. It's the fact that this second girl also fucked him over with another guy, but it wasn't his fault. You can't control that you know.

In the story he'd shared with us he gave a lot of clues as to with what mindset he's approaching the whole deal. Those clues are very telling and if the dude doesn't take it personal, and gives a try to what I suggest, he might gain that precious insight that might turn his life upside down, in a good sense.

rodrigo
04-06-2011, 07:08 AM
Euhm, I'm not gonna do this little 'experiment'. Actually, I don't know any friends or guys around here that do this :


And I don't think this is the mouseman his actual 'problem'. It's the fact that this second girl also fucked him over with another guy, but it wasn't his fault. You can't control that you know.

dude, look who you're arguing with... and about dating!

xsecx
04-06-2011, 09:23 AM
It's a completely different approach and mindset. Social dynamics, if you will.

and how's that working out for you? Have you had much success? Long term girlfriend and happy relationship as result of this?

xCrucialDudex
04-06-2011, 01:19 PM
dude, look who you're arguing with... and about dating!

what are you saying exactly here?

xCrucialDudex
04-06-2011, 01:29 PM
and how's that working out for you? Have you had much success? Long term girlfriend and happy relationship as result of this?

It's working out just awesome. Most girls that I interacted with responded very powerfully to this. Yes, I've had much more success than before. Yes, I've had a long term relationship with a girl I really liked as a result of this. Is there anything else you would like to know?

xsecx
04-06-2011, 01:39 PM
It's working out just awesome. Most girls that I interacted with responded very powerfully to this. Yes, I've had much more success than before. Yes, I've had a long term relationship with a girl I really liked as a result of this. Is there anything else you would like to know?

powerful can mean a lot of things. If I had anyone in my life that treated people like this, I'd not take kindly to it. It's formulaic. it's presumptive and it's dangerous. I can't really imagine the kind of girl that would responding favorably to basically being fucked with. "hey sorry, I know we're having a really nice conversation, but our five mins are up, talk to you next week!"

Lifestyle_X
04-06-2011, 01:49 PM
This conversation is surreal.

This is the hate thread right? Well, I hate guys that act like that and experiment with girls like that. Show some respect.

xCrucialDudex
04-06-2011, 02:05 PM
powerful can mean a lot of things. If I had anyone in my life that treated people like this, I'd not take kindly to it. It's formulaic. it's presumptive and it's dangerous. I can't really imagine the kind of girl that would responding favorably to basically being fucked with. "hey sorry, I know we're having a really nice conversation, but our five mins are up, talk to you next week!"

Ah, but you see it's nothing like that at all. As I said it's a different mindset. And it's not about fucking with someone, or manipulating, rather changing your own frame of reference. It happens so that any average looking girl, given she's not downright stupid and dumb, has a lot of guys that just pour their attention down on her. Constantly. Everywhere. And hitting on her also constantly and everwhere. If you're that girl... let's make a guess and try to imagine how fast that becomes mundane, boring, irritating and unattractive? Uhmmm... maybe by the age of 15-17? Right, so she's grown up now here's this guy, 20 something years old, doing the same old thing, pouring down attention... like hundreds of other guys are doing. I mean, if you expect a girl to like specifically him among the array of other guys because of just that... boy you're doomed to repeat your own mistakes over and over again. I'll stop right here, because it's really too big of a topic to cover in a hate thread as off-topic material, and you guys clearly don't get it, and try to ridicule me, so I don't feel like investing my time into this more than this.

However, as a final note, next time you're out hanging out with friends or a date, or a girlfriend, just pay attention to what's going on around you. Pay close attention to what women respond when they interact with other guys, what they really like, not what they tell they like. It's two different things. Pay attention to conversations in your local Starbucks, how guys behave in general, how they hold themselves, etc. Doing just this may give you a good clue as to why you may not be doing as great as you wish you were with the ladies. The fastest track is to find a buddy who's good with women, who dates women in droves, not because he's a manipulative jerk, but because women tend to like his company naturally, and compare what he's doing to what you're doing. You're in for a treat.

xCrucialDudex
04-06-2011, 02:07 PM
This conversation is surreal.

This is the hate thread right? Well, I hate guys that act like that and experiment with girls like that. Show some respect.

How is learning disrespectful? I'm not agitating to manipulate people. You got it all wrong.

Lifestyle_X
04-06-2011, 02:37 PM
Do you tell the girls that you're doing an experiment with them and a lot of other girls, before you talk about something else?


The fastest track is to find a buddy who's good with women, who dates women in droves, not because he's a manipulative jerk, but because women tend to like his company naturally, and compare what he's doing to what you're doing.

Hmm, now that you mention this. Actually, one of my best friends is somewhat like this. And to be honest, it makes me rather sick. He's not manipulating anyone, he just dates so much girls it's sick. He has no boundaries. I'm fucking glad I'm not like him.

xsecx
04-06-2011, 03:35 PM
Ah, but you see it's nothing like that at all. As I said it's a different mindset. And it's not about fucking with someone, or manipulating, rather changing your own frame of reference. It happens so that any average looking girl, given she's not downright stupid and dumb, has a lot of guys that just pour their attention down on her. Constantly. Everywhere. And hitting on her also constantly and everwhere. If you're that girl... let's make a guess and try to imagine how fast that becomes mundane, boring, irritating and unattractive? Uhmmm... maybe by the age of 15-17? Right, so she's grown up now here's this guy, 20 something years old, doing the same old thing, pouring down attention... like hundreds of other guys are doing. I mean, if you expect a girl to like specifically him among the array of other guys because of just that... boy you're doomed to repeat your own mistakes over and over again. I'll stop right here, because it's really too big of a topic to cover in a hate thread as off-topic material, and you guys clearly don't get it, and try to ridicule me, so I don't feel like investing my time into this more than this.

However, as a final note, next time you're out hanging out with friends or a date, or a girlfriend, just pay attention to what's going on around you. Pay close attention to what women respond when they interact with other guys, what they really like, not what they tell they like. It's two different things. Pay attention to conversations in your local Starbucks, how guys behave in general, how they hold themselves, etc. Doing just this may give you a good clue as to why you may not be doing as great as you wish you were with the ladies. The fastest track is to find a buddy who's good with women, who dates women in droves, not because he's a manipulative jerk, but because women tend to like his company naturally, and compare what he's doing to what you're doing. You're in for a treat.

you do realize that I've been married for almost 10 years at this point?

What you're talking about isn't how you treat people you're interested in. It's how you do a sociology experiment. You're setting rules that dictate your behavior rather than letting your instincts and judgement determine the best course of action. Any person that realizes that you're doing this rather than being genuine is going to be disgusted by this.

straightXed
04-06-2011, 04:45 PM
Remember you used to get those adverts in the back of comic books with books on how to "pick up chicks"...i think i know who bought them!!

I always wanted the x-ray specs!

straightXed
04-06-2011, 05:33 PM
The fastest track is to find a buddy who's good with women, who dates women in droves, not because he's a manipulative jerk, but because women tend to like his company naturally, and compare what he's doing to what you're doing. You're in for a treat.

I just wanted to pick up on this. Firstly dating women in droves is not a sign of being good with women in fact often in can be more indicative of someone with commitment issues or something else untoward.

Secondly, I myself have been through phases where i have dated a lot of women and phases where i have dated none but neither period suggests i am better with women at one point over another.

I notice in your first post it was very calculative, very much a check list of do's and don'ts but it missed one of the biggies as does your post here. Do be yourself and don't try to make out you are like someone else. I'm not saying you are any different from the guy who dates in droves and so this might be great for you but its clearly bad advice to tell someone to behave in a manner that doesn't fit them at all and ultimately will cause them more heartache.

I have been on the recieving end of calculative behaviour like this and when you realise it it really does become one of the most unnatractive things, i found it to actually be really pitiful and i felt really sorry for this girl. I'm sure you will say what you are saying is completely different but from what you have written it certainly seems to be coming off as such.

Essentially what you are doing or suggesting to do is be a pick up artist, there are methods that will appeal and generate a lot of success in getting women for the short term...I notice you said had a long term relationship with a girl you really liked but maybe you are still just into the teenage mentality that dating is still like a game. Its just your game has gotten more serious and its definitely manipulative. There was a documentry about this on TV recently, guys charging money for courses in picking up women. It followed a guy that was totally shy and unlucky with women and the course promised he would be able to date as many women as he wanted...sounded great! The course worked as thats not at all in question, he was able to get loads of womens numbers and date them as he pleased but it made him ultimately very sad. The documentry illustrated that while the course fulfilled its promise of giving him the skills to date anyone it wasn't making him happy at all and he was never going to find happiness that way.

The true dynamics and laws of attraction are much less contrived, its not something you can follow like an ABC and when you look at it its really quite amazing. Its beyond the scope of this discussion. I don't think MouseMan needs any advice really, he is always himself from what i can tell and he manages to attract women without trying, he is honest with them and unfortunately on this occasion things sucked. I feel that your way of things doesn't allow you to be open, it is very guarded and i am sure stops you feeling any emotionaly pain but maybe thats the way you like it, no one wants to feel pain but you also lose the level of attachment required for a relationship to blossom. I have got some friends who are absolutely natural with girls but its all show, i know these guys and their confidence levels are not all that, sure they can attract women but to be totally open, honest, to be themselves...that scares them which is funny as being yourself is usually the most attractive thing as cliche as it sounds. If you being yourself is to date women following a set of rules then i am sure there are people out there that may gravitate to that but its more than likely that any success keeps them in the dark on your thought process and behaviour which i just feel is not great for a relationship. I wish you all the best but i find it hard to warm to your approach and cannot condone it.

mouseman004
04-06-2011, 08:07 PM
that's ass dude. One time I was out west working and starting seeing a girl from work. On one of the following trips rather than getting a hotel, I stayed with her. I thought things were going great. She apparently didn't. About halfway through the trip, she cut things off. Not only was it a giant kick in the nuts, but it also meant I had to still stay there for a few days because there were no available hotel rooms.

In hindsight, I don't think there's much I could do. All you can do is do your thing, hope the person you're seeing is being honest. Shutting yourself away won't protect you. It won't keep you safe. It just means that if someone awesome does come, you'll miss out because you're too worried about getting hurt.


that's ass. i've been down that road recently and it sucks balls.

Yeah situations like this definitely suck. But looking back at it there was nothing I could have done differently, I got played and there is nothing I can do about that. I know shutting myself away isn't going to help things, and I regret having done it for the past two years so I am not going to let it happen again, but its just hard when I finally decide to put myself out there again I get a repeat performance. I am sure things will turn around for me and the right girl will come around sometime.


Yeah he can try that, but it's still no guaranty that the same thing won't happen again. It's hard to keep your emotions on a leash. That is, for me.. But hey, maybe the next girl is perfect. It's impossible to know, but better so maybe. Or maybe take a break for a while.
You know what? Just do whatever you like to do! As long as you're happy and enjoy life and forget about shitty times like this. Kick some ass dude!

Haha thanks man! I like that advice a lot!

linsee
04-06-2011, 09:25 PM
Now I realise this doesn't seem like a big deal to others, I was only seeing her for 4 weeks, who cares. But the reason I am so rattled really has nothing to do with this girl specifically, but is because this almost exact situation happened to me about 2 years ago (with a girl I was in love with) and it killed me back then. I haven't let myself get attached to anyone since then. After this new girl initiates everything with me I finally decide it is okay to allow myself to get attached/involved with someone again, and this is what I get for it.
If it feels like a big deal, it is a big deal for you, so don't apologize dude. You can't help how you feel,or don't for that matter.
My advice is not to let emotions and feelings take hold so quickly, and kind of try to keep all the awesome stuff at bay for awhile. Speaking from experience, I used to get super stoked over new dudes right away, only to end up feeling extra crushed when it doesn't work out. Learning to feel emotions without it being at maximum output is a nice feeling. A balance, so to speak. It's something I struggled with myself. And, I could be way off base how you're feeling, if so, you can disregard all this. :)

xCrucialDudex
04-07-2011, 12:10 AM
Do you tell the girls that you're doing an experiment with them and a lot of other girls, before you talk about something else?

A lot of serious experiments need to be conducted without people knowing about them to get unbiased, more accurate results. I take all responsibility for treating people decently and properly while doing this. Also, it's in quotation marks throughout this thread for a reason. I'm not a Ph.D. in social sciences, I'm just fumbling my way with whatever knowledge and creativity I have. And I strive to improve, and I can see no other better, more effective way that to try out different things, receive the feedback, adjust my ideas, practices and move on. This is actually learning and it involves making mistakes, hurting somebody else and yourself in the process. That's life!

The only difference you guys talk about is that I'm aware and conscious of my efforts to the extent when I can give them structural description. Fundamentally, I'm not doing anything new or outrageously indecent.


Hmm, now that you mention this. Actually, one of my best friends is somewhat like this. And to be honest, it makes me rather sick. He's not manipulating anyone, he just dates so much girls it's sick. He has no boundaries. I'm fucking glad I'm not like him.

Because you tend to have a different value system and understanding of how things work. It's just like a billionaire investor and a poor man, both have very different understanding of how money works, what value it brings and how to handle it. To some extnet, they're living in different realities.

xCrucialDudex
04-07-2011, 12:15 AM
you do realize that I've been married for almost 10 years at this point?

Of course, but that doesn't make you automatically an expert in dating and relationships. In fact, many married people are clueless when it comes to relationships and have terrible skills (all kinds of skills).


What you're talking about isn't how you treat people you're interested in. It's how you do a sociology experiment. You're setting rules that dictate your behavior rather than letting your instincts and judgement determine the best course of action. Any person that realizes that you're doing this rather than being genuine is going to be disgusted by this.

I started our with condensed, factual message to give an outline of an idea to someone who, I assume, isn't quite aware of the effects of his current course of action. It'd be a suicide to write a mini-book as an Internet forum advice attempt to someone who may not even care about that.

The problem is that your view is limited, you just keep on clinging to whatever you want to see in that what I write, completely neglecting everything else.

xCrucialDudex
04-07-2011, 12:19 AM
I just wanted to pick up on this. Firstly dating women in droves is not a sign of being good with women in fact often in can be more indicative of someone with commitment issues or something else untoward
....

Thank you for your input, but as I said you guys terribly misinterpret what I'm saying. I made it clear that it's a lot more complex than that (what I wrote in the first post that kicked off this discussion), and that it will backfire on someone who keeps on doing this mindlessly and forever. It's funny that all you choose to see is the manipulation and assumed issues with me as a person.

xCrucialDudex
04-07-2011, 12:19 AM
If it feels like a big deal, it is a big deal for you, so don't apologize dude. You can't help how you feel,or don't for that matter.
My advice is not to let emotions and feelings take hold so quickly, and kind of try to keep all the awesome stuff at bay for awhile. Speaking from experience, I used to get super stoked over new dudes right away, only to end up feeling extra crushed when it doesn't work out. Learning to feel emotions without it being at maximum output is a nice feeling. A balance, so to speak. It's something I struggled with myself. And, I could be way off base how you're feeling, if so, you can disregard all this. :)

In fact, this is an awesome input and makes a lot of sense. Essentially, partly it is exactly what I'm talking about here, only in other words. It's funny how a girl points this out right away, while you guys keep on telling me that there's nothing bad in letting your emotions run you and the show, and that I manipulate people and stuff.

Lifestyle_X
04-07-2011, 04:52 AM
A lot of serious experiments need to be conducted without people knowing about them to get unbiased, more accurate results. I take all responsibility for treating people decently and properly while doing this.

I don't know how you guys are raised in your country, but you are contradicting yourself. It's indecent to do this. You don't know how girls think, it's not like they all are an exact copy of your average teenage moviestar.


The only difference you guys talk about is that I'm aware and conscious of my efforts to the extent when I can give them structural description. Fundamentally, I'm not doing anything new or outrageously indecent.

Here you are saying you're doing it premeditated, what makes it even more indecent.


Because you tend to have a different value system and understanding of how things work. It's just like a billionaire investor and a poor man, both have very different understanding of how money works, what value it brings and how to handle it. To some extnet, they're living in different realities.

Bad metaphor dude. So you think it's decent to sleep around with a different girl every week? It's decent to sleep around with your friend's ex-girlfriend?


Of course, but that doesn't make you automatically an expert in dating and relationships. In fact, many married people are clueless when it comes to relationships and have terrible skills (all kinds of skills).

I think married couples like Dusty and Viv, my parents, .. are the ultimate bomb (positive) in dating. They achieved what they want with the other person, they achieved happiness in life, they don't need other people to spice up their life, or need to do ridiculous experiments to know that they have skills in dating.


The problem is that your view is limited, you just keep on clinging to whatever you want to see in that what I write, completely neglecting everything else.

What else is there in what you write?


In fact, this is an awesome input and makes a lot of sense. Essentially, partly it is exactly what I'm talking about here, only in other words. It's funny how a girl points this out right away, while you guys keep on telling me that there's nothing bad in letting your emotions run you and the show, and that I manipulate people and stuff.

There's nothing bad with letting your emotions run you, but it also can be good to keep them on a leash when you're feeling down and try to turn them in happy feelings. That doesn't mean you have to be a second Charlie Sheen and sleep around like a madman and be a dick to girls.

mouseman004
04-07-2011, 06:24 AM
If it feels like a big deal, it is a big deal for you, so don't apologize dude. You can't help how you feel,or don't for that matter.
My advice is not to let emotions and feelings take hold so quickly, and kind of try to keep all the awesome stuff at bay for awhile. Speaking from experience, I used to get super stoked over new dudes right away, only to end up feeling extra crushed when it doesn't work out. Learning to feel emotions without it being at maximum output is a nice feeling. A balance, so to speak. It's something I struggled with myself. And, I could be way off base how you're feeling, if so, you can disregard all this. :)

Yeah getting that balance would be nice, it would sure make it easier to deal with if things don't work out. One of the reasons I was so rattled is because I did sort of keep emotions at bay. I kept things at arms length for 3 weeks until she started initiating the couply stuff like telling me how much I mean to her, holding my hand, all that stuff. It was only after she started with that I figured it would be okay to get attached, then 2 days later this crap happens. But I got too attached too early, and that was my fault.

I am actually over it at this point. Talking to family and friends (including responses from everybody here), I have put things into perspective and realised that there is no point in letting this bug me. She isn't worth feeling shitty over :)

xCrucialDudex
04-07-2011, 06:37 AM
*sighs*

Dude, no offense, but you just don't get it. One's nationality or country of origin has little to do with all this, really. The stuff I'm talking about is nearly universal and is basically cross-cultural, for the inner workings of these social phenomena such as dating and relationship are largely rooted in instincts and deeper, unconscious behavioral patterns. That means that most people aren't even aware of how they work, why they work this or that way, what it tells us about ourselves and what larger social implications they have. This all is quite counterintuitive, and relatively complex to grasp in a single post, or even three, and it took me personally quite some time to truly realize this stuff, through the actual experience and interactions with people (not just girls).

I've a friend, a psychologist, even he was having hard times coming to accept what I've mentioned here. It took literally years for him to start seeing things the way I do these days.

That said, I don't really expect you or anyone else for that matter to fully understand me, yet alone put this into practice right away. However, I personally see tremendous benefit from learning this stuff, and getting better at understanding it with time, so when I see people having trouble with this I can't just stand by and do nothing when I might be able to help someone gain a valuable insight as to what's really going on.

If anything I was taught in my culture was that being indifferent to people's problems, and going about life selfishly to yourself is a very counterproductive way for all of us.

Just for the record, I have another friend who once got fed up with his personal life and complained to me. We used to be very close friends and discussed just about anything. So, we talked this over and he agreed no to question my advice and do his best to implement what I told him (basically the same stuff I addressed to mouseman). In a couple of weeks I received a call from him, all happy, telling me he didn't understand how exactly and why but this worked as hell, and he was finally getting where he wanted to be. Now, he wasn't a fool, and he clearly realized that he stepped on a different path, one he didn't quite understand, so he would have to learn a lot and not expect things to just magically work now that I had shared a few tips with him. In fact, I'm not a guru, just an ordinary guy who realized a couple of important ideas. He often called me to ask for advice that I couldn't give him, but at least I shared what I knew and it helped him to realize what he was doing wrong to get where he wanted to be.

We can argue to death about this, but if you never go outside and do it until you realize what I'm talking about, this contention is but a pointless waste of time.

PS: and hey stop acting as if I'm attacking you or your family personally :) I'm not, I'm your friend, maybe an unusual one but a friend! =)

straightXed
04-07-2011, 12:10 PM
Thank you for your input, but as I said you guys terribly misinterpret what I'm saying. I made it clear that it's a lot more complex than that (what I wrote in the first post that kicked off this discussion), and that it will backfire on someone who keeps on doing this mindlessly and forever. It's funny that all you choose to see is the manipulation and assumed issues with me as a person.

Well if everyone is misinterpreting it maybe the issue is with how you are explaining it. Everyone else seems to get the same thing from what you have said except you. What you wrote in the first post and in all posts doesn't give way to anything particularly complex and the complexity is not an issue anyway its an ethical and moral issue. Its not about it backfiring its about the calculated approach that misrepresents all the good stuff i mentioned. Its funny that i have chosen to see the idea and practice with focus on much more than manipulation and yet you still make this comment.

straightXed
04-07-2011, 12:16 PM
In fact, this is an awesome input and makes a lot of sense. Essentially, partly it is exactly what I'm talking about here, only in other words. It's funny how a girl points this out right away, while you guys keep on telling me that there's nothing bad in letting your emotions run you and the show, and that I manipulate people and stuff.

Who's saying that exactly, i think you are not only putting your point accross in a way that is wrong but you are also completely misunderstanding and getting what other people are say ass backwards. No one is saying let emotions run everything or rush into relationships but you have a calculative approach and have also suggested acting like other people and you also have a strange notion that dating women in droves equals success in dating. You are way off the boil and are getting a lot of things wrong here.

straightXed
04-07-2011, 12:18 PM
*sighs*

Dude, no offense, but you just don't get it. One's nationality or country of origin has little to do with all this, really. The stuff I'm talking about is nearly universal and is basically cross-cultural, for the inner workings of these social phenomena such as dating and relationship are largely rooted in instincts and deeper, unconscious behavioral patterns. That means that most people aren't even aware of how they work, why they work this or that way, what it tells us about ourselves and what larger social implications they have. This all is quite counterintuitive, and relatively complex to grasp in a single post, or even three, and it took me personally quite some time to truly realize this stuff, through the actual experience and interactions with people (not just girls).

I've a friend, a psychologist, even he was having hard times coming to accept what I've mentioned here. It took literally years for him to start seeing things the way I do these days.

That said, I don't really expect you or anyone else for that matter to fully understand me, yet alone put this into practice right away. However, I personally see tremendous benefit from learning this stuff, and getting better at understanding it with time, so when I see people having trouble with this I can't just stand by and do nothing when I might be able to help someone gain a valuable insight as to what's really going on.

If anything I was taught in my culture was that being indifferent to people's problems, and going about life selfishly to yourself is a very counterproductive way for all of us.

Just for the record, I have another friend who once got fed up with his personal life and complained to me. We used to be very close friends and discussed just about anything. So, we talked this over and he agreed no to question my advice and do his best to implement what I told him (basically the same stuff I addressed to mouseman). In a couple of weeks I received a call from him, all happy, telling me he didn't understand how exactly and why but this worked as hell, and he was finally getting where he wanted to be. Now, he wasn't a fool, and he clearly realized that he stepped on a different path, one he didn't quite understand, so he would have to learn a lot and not expect things to just magically work now that I had shared a few tips with him. In fact, I'm not a guru, just an ordinary guy who realized a couple of important ideas. He often called me to ask for advice that I couldn't give him, but at least I shared what I knew and it helped him to realize what he was doing wrong to get where he wanted to be.

We can argue to death about this, but if you never go outside and do it until you realize what I'm talking about, this contention is but a pointless waste of time.

PS: and hey stop acting as if I'm attacking you or your family personally :) I'm not, I'm your friend, maybe an unusual one but a friend! =)

You should have bought the x-ray specs.

xCrucialDudex
04-07-2011, 01:05 PM
Look, I appreciate all the critique but all I can answer is the same, you don't get it, you see that which is not happening or being suggested.

Your crazy idea that being aware of something and doing it consciously equals manipulation is ridiculous in the given context. For this "manipulation" is what all of us are doing unceasingly, for the most part unconsciously. Not only in dating area but everywhere. Right now you're engaging in exactly calculated action trying to demonstrate how wrong I supposedly am. And perhaps without giving much thought to it, but the thing is if you did the same consciously, which I believe to some extent is true and you're actually quite aware of what you're doing, that would make you a manipulative person according to your very own standards. Technically speaking, yes that's "manipulation", as in applying knowledge of techniques to achieve desired results, however I, understanding the phenomenon, would rather call it (that what you're doing) an argumentative technique and deny the negative connotation. For, in essence, what is happening is not a manipulation, rather contention taking place on the Internet, an event that involves a myriad of almost fully automated processes happening with lighting-fast speed deep inside your brain.

Only, it wasn't like this always. You gradually learned all of this, honed your skills to the point when you don't have to stop to think about what you're doing. Even if something goes wrong the adjustments happen so fast, we never notice. However, if someone accused you of engaging in manipulation while you were still learning, making mistakes, and needed considerably more time than now, wouldn't you find it strange to say the least?

You don't call someone who learns to become better at something a manipulator. Plain and simple.

But even if you insist on using this very word, according to

OxfordDictionary (En-En)
manipulator
noun
1) a person who controls or influences others in a clever or unscrupulous way
2) a person who handles or controls something skilfully

Derivatives:
manipulatory adjective

as you can see has two meanings. What I've been talking all along is 2). However, all you see is 1) (which in fact doesn't always bears a negative connotation).

Bottom line is no taking advantage over poor, unsuspecting girls deliberately, no fucking with them, no dishonesty, if only structural, but that's again something we're all guilty of for that's how things work in life.

Hope this helps.

xCrucialDudex
04-07-2011, 01:26 PM
Btw, while we're at it, I encourage everyone to answer the following question "What would you recommend to do to someone who "is being himself" but that clearly doesn't work, a guy has trouble getting dates, let alone building a lasting relationship, girls don't fall for him, those who rarely do are into him only for some inexplicable reason, almost luck, a guy doesn't really have a feeling that he's in control of what's happening in his personal life, etc.?" This is, sadly, a very good description of how life of an awful lot of guys is. So, go ahead and tell me what you think, I'm really interested to hear your opinion. Girls included.

straightXed
04-07-2011, 04:21 PM
Look, I appreciate all the critique but all I can answer is the same, you don't get it, you see that which is not happening or being suggested.

I see what you write.


Your crazy idea that being aware of something and doing it consciously equals manipulation is ridiculous in the given context. For this "manipulation" is what all of us are doing unceasingly, for the most part unconsciously.

So are you saying its not manipulative?



Not only in dating area but everywhere. Right now you're engaging in exactly calculated action trying to demonstrate how wrong I supposedly am. And perhaps without giving much thought to it, but the thing is if you did the same consciously, which I believe to some extent is true and you're actually quite aware of what you're doing, that would make you a manipulative person according to your very own standards.

I'm discussing the things you wrote about at face value. Nothing more nothing less. I presented a logical and thoughtful reasoning at the flaws based on the things you wrote. All you do is say i must not understand and try to pin that on me. You give no time to alternative ideas on what you wrote and act like anyone who disagrees with you doesn't get it but refuse to explain any clearer. You did mention you didn't have time to discuss it but you seriously aren't up for discussion at alland just hugely set on a thought process you can only explain to the point that everyone here thinks you are saying something else.



Technically speaking, yes that's "manipulation", as in applying knowledge of techniques to achieve desired results, however I, understanding the phenomenon, would rather call it (that what you're doing) an argumentative technique and deny the negative connotation. For, in essence, what is happening is not a manipulation, rather contention taking place on the Internet, an event that involves a myriad of almost fully automated processes happening with lighting-fast speed deep inside your brain.

You know you are waffling on there right? So the thing is, we are sat here and being totally upfront about things right? Are you upfront about your practice with women?


Only, it wasn't like this always. You gradually learned all of this, honed your skills to the point when you don't have to stop to think about what you're doing. Even if something goes wrong the adjustments happen so fast, we never notice. However, if someone accused you of engaging in manipulation while you were still learning, making mistakes, and needed considerably more time than now, wouldn't you find it strange to say the least?

This is all well and good but completely irrelevent, i think you are slightly hung up on the idea of explaining manipulation to me, not sure if you think i am not aware of this. The point that interests me is how you see women...your views on women have come into question a few times since you have graced us with your presence. And its the matter of factness around your ideas. Never date a girl on her birthday when dating for four weeks...in some occasions this may be the right thing to do in some the very wrong thing to do...having this set rule is the cold calculative idea that won't always work. This idea of only talking to a girl for five mins max and only twice in the first week again is just silly, you can make a judgement call surely? You don't need a checklist to work women with? Sometimes initial conversations can be long affairs with great depth its this hardwired way to get women that comes accross in your posts. One of the interesting things is you saying you can enjoy the relationship without being emotionally attached...you don't mention a time period for this which is pretty scary, is it an ongoing thing to be in a relationship with no emotional attachment? Or is this another case of me not getting it because what you wrote actually means something else?




You don't call someone who learns to become better at something a manipulator. Plain and simple.

Depends, in running and kung fu i learn to manipulate my body, breathing, opponents. In art or photography the word can be used say they manipulate imagary or colour well. The word is not inherently negative and i have been commended for manipulation in many ways but sometimes manipulation can be a bad thing too...someone who learns to cheat the benefit system by manipulation, someone that uses fear to manipulate people or any host of things. Manipulation is not the problem, its what and who and how you manipulate that comes into question.


But even if you insist on using this very word, according to

OxfordDictionary (En-En)
manipulator
noun
1) a person who controls or influences others in a clever or unscrupulous way
2) a person who handles or controls something skilfully

Derivatives:
manipulatory adjective

as you can see has two meanings. What I've been talking all along is 2). However, all you see is 1) (which in fact doesn't always bears a negative connotation).

Well both one and two fit and can both be either negative or positive or even neutral. You have spend a lot of time responding to the word manipulative and addressed nothing else. You agree the word fits and so i really am at a loss as to your point...you've made a big issue around one word which fits what you do by your own acceptance yet its far from the crux of the conversation. Its clear people are discussing and concerned more about what, who and how you manipulate.




Bottom line is no taking advantage over poor, unsuspecting girls deliberately, no fucking with them, no dishonesty, if only structural, but that's again something we're all guilty of for that's how things work in life.

Define fucking with them.

How honest are you about your rules?

Bottom line is you are adding new rules so you shouldn't be giving people grief if you ommitted to include all the facts...You claim we don't get it and i claim everyone is only going on what you wrote, we are unable to manipulate things so we can read your mind...you need to learn to explain yourself more in a concise way with less waffle explaining one word!


Hope this helps.

It gave me a little more information but you can improve, you should explain everything then we can pick through it and ask for explanation of every point we have a disrepency with...try to cover as many potential real life issues that would negate the rules. And if you can't be bothered or don't have time don't sweat it, we can just go on what you have written thus far!!

Lifestyle_X
04-07-2011, 04:35 PM
Call me simple, but do we even need more information? I'm gonna stay with my opinion. Or... Should I give it a try?

straightXed
04-07-2011, 06:57 PM
Call me simple, but do we even need more information? I'm gonna stay with my opinion. Or... Should I give it a try?

Well based on the information he has given you can't draw to many other conclusions. However he protests that we don't get it but i say the flaw isn't in the perception of the majority but in the explanation and presentation of what he is putting forward.

xCrucialDudex
04-08-2011, 01:05 AM
Right, only you completely miss out on the fact that if you have little knowledge and understanding of any given subject, and someone comes and gives you concise rundown of a couple of ideas that demonstrate that particular subject matter/idea/concept, chances are very high you're going to misinterpret whatever you were presented in the virtue of the lack of exposure, knowledge and experience as a result.

You just keep on saying it's bad presentation, but hey, I'd met people who could understand this almost right away. All they needed was someone to spell this out for them, put it into words.

So, again I'm going to say you just don't get it. It's not just an issue of bad presentation. I'd say it's probably combination of both. Looks more like an inadequate presentation for a group of people with certain knowledge and experience. But you can't just blame this only on me. Maybe something's wrong with you, don't you think this could be a possibility? But anyway, I don't know most of you good enough to make a perfect presentation of these ideas just for you personally. Heck, even people I know quite well, it's no easy task to demonstrate them these ideas.

Yes, I'm being as honest as is possible about my views and conduct.

On restricted communication, what I mean here is that I've come to the point where I realized that talking to someone you've just met for a longer time, generally, is a bad idea. Now, it's more of rule of thumb, but in most situations it holds true. If you keep on just talking to a girl you've just met, chances are she's going to eject from conversation herself pretty soon. Now, there are a lot factors to keep in mind such as where you are, what is your intent, etc. If you're in the street and you're clearly approaching a girl with a hope to get a date with her, she picks it up and understands exactly what's going on. Try to talk to a girl for a long time in this situation right in the street, or in the mall. To my experience some will be more direct and let you know that they're uncomfortable to talking to someone they've just met for this long. They EXPECT you to stay there for only a short time, to exchange a couple of words, maybe take their information, and get back to your business. But there are also girls that are too polite, or in virtue of their psychological makeup just can't take a decisive action and turn the direction of events even though they feel uncomfortable. I've seen both types and I know it's best to eject fast enough, usually 5 minutes is perceived by most people as a suitable, normal time frame. Hence, a very specific advice to mouseman.

This also applies to phone calls. The time frame with which girls become more comfortable talking to you for longer times gradually becomes larger in proportion to how often you interact and, generally speaking, how well you are doing finding a common language.

Now, I've come to realize this through numerous interactions, and today I see how it works, so I act accordingly. This understanding is a part of me now, and what I do is quite natural.

It's not like xsecx imagines it is happening. I'm not hanging up on girls just because my 5 minute time limit is up. In fact, sometimes I get so excited that I talk too much to them. Which is fine, right? Wrong. I've learned that usually this is perceived by most girls as undesirable and unattractive. They just tend to lose interest over time. So, I know that, through experience, and I naturally have a feeling of sorts when and how much to talk, with whom and where. If I just kept on doing what I wanted and that made girls run away as a result, that would be just stupid to not change. But this understanding came through trial and error, I talked too much and I saw undesirable results, so I learned. I talked too little sometimes and I noticed how it can be perceived as weird too, so I learned. I also happen to notice how much time I spend on something, so somewhere along the way I crunched the numbers and realized that there are indeed a couple of rules of thumb that, whether I like it or not, work. Whether I like it or not, anything that I do either increases or decreases a girl's attraction to me. And my end goal is to keep a girl that I like attracted to me. I mean, that's why we initiate the whole dating stuff. So, how is this a manipulation? See, it's not.

In fact, I feel that, generally speaking, relationships take off gradually, and increase in intensity, then they wear off, and may take off again only to wear off with some time. I imagine this as an endless process, as a sine wave if depicted graphically. And it's universal, not just in dating. The same is happening with non-romantic relationships too.

Now, if you really understand what I'm saying here, perhaps you should also see that it's a huuuuge stretch to refer to this as manipulation.

You never answered my question, though.

straightXed
04-10-2011, 05:21 AM
Right, only you completely miss out on the fact that if you have little knowledge and understanding of any given subject, and someone comes and gives you concise rundown of a couple of ideas that demonstrate that particular subject matter/idea/concept, chances are very high you're going to misinterpret whatever you were presented in the virtue of the lack of exposure, knowledge and experience as a result.

You just keep on saying it's bad presentation, but hey, I'd met people who could understand this almost right away. All they needed was someone to spell this out for them, put it into words.

So, again I'm going to say you just don't get it. It's not just an issue of bad presentation. I'd say it's probably combination of both. Looks more like an inadequate presentation for a group of people with certain knowledge and experience. But you can't just blame this only on me. Maybe something's wrong with you, don't you think this could be a possibility? But anyway, I don't know most of you good enough to make a perfect presentation of these ideas just for you personally. Heck, even people I know quite well, it's no easy task to demonstrate them these ideas.

Yes, I'm being as honest as is possible about my views and conduct.

On restricted communication, what I mean here is that I've come to the point where I realized that talking to someone you've just met for a longer time, generally, is a bad idea. Now, it's more of rule of thumb, but in most situations it holds true. If you keep on just talking to a girl you've just met, chances are she's going to eject from conversation herself pretty soon. Now, there are a lot factors to keep in mind such as where you are, what is your intent, etc. If you're in the street and you're clearly approaching a girl with a hope to get a date with her, she picks it up and understands exactly what's going on. Try to talk to a girl for a long time in this situation right in the street, or in the mall. To my experience some will be more direct and let you know that they're uncomfortable to talking to someone they've just met for this long. They EXPECT you to stay there for only a short time, to exchange a couple of words, maybe take their information, and get back to your business. But there are also girls that are too polite, or in virtue of their psychological makeup just can't take a decisive action and turn the direction of events even though they feel uncomfortable. I've seen both types and I know it's best to eject fast enough, usually 5 minutes is perceived by most people as a suitable, normal time frame. Hence, a very specific advice to mouseman.

This also applies to phone calls. The time frame with which girls become more comfortable talking to you for longer times gradually becomes larger in proportion to how often you interact and, generally speaking, how well you are doing finding a common language.

Now, I've come to realize this through numerous interactions, and today I see how it works, so I act accordingly. This understanding is a part of me now, and what I do is quite natural.

It's not like xsecx imagines it is happening. I'm not hanging up on girls just because my 5 minute time limit is up. In fact, sometimes I get so excited that I talk too much to them. Which is fine, right? Wrong. I've learned that usually this is perceived by most girls as undesirable and unattractive. They just tend to lose interest over time. So, I know that, through experience, and I naturally have a feeling of sorts when and how much to talk, with whom and where. If I just kept on doing what I wanted and that made girls run away as a result, that would be just stupid to not change. But this understanding came through trial and error, I talked too much and I saw undesirable results, so I learned. I talked too little sometimes and I noticed how it can be perceived as weird too, so I learned. I also happen to notice how much time I spend on something, so somewhere along the way I crunched the numbers and realized that there are indeed a couple of rules of thumb that, whether I like it or not, work. Whether I like it or not, anything that I do either increases or decreases a girl's attraction to me. And my end goal is to keep a girl that I like attracted to me. I mean, that's why we initiate the whole dating stuff. So, how is this a manipulation? See, it's not.

In fact, I feel that, generally speaking, relationships take off gradually, and increase in intensity, then they wear off, and may take off again only to wear off with some time. I imagine this as an endless process, as a sine wave if depicted graphically. And it's universal, not just in dating. The same is happening with non-romantic relationships too.

Now, if you really understand what I'm saying here, perhaps you should also see that it's a huuuuge stretch to refer to this as manipulation.

You never answered my question, though.

No, the problem is all you.

xCrucialDudex
04-10-2011, 05:43 AM
No, the problem is all you.

I think you're wrong.

straightXed
04-10-2011, 01:59 PM
I think you're wrong.

Well you have already agreed that it is manipulation, you are just going over ground already covered and failing to move forward with the discussion which now resides in discussing the morality of what level of manipulation and to whom and with what intent is acceptable before being considered negative. There were questions about this that you failed to address also and in fact you are doing a poor job of addressing points raised thus your question remains unanswered up to this point but i have considered your question and write with it in mind.

The problem clearly lies with your presentation and trying to share the responsibility out says quite a lot about your mind set here. You have written a bunch of absolutes and are now adding information to them using words like generally, you are actually making things sound different to how it was first written. But still you only explain two types of people and only one type of situation...and perhaps in that one type of situation you are right but there are situations that its absolutely not a good idea at all and personalities that would prefer more than 5 minutes, further more different people interact at different rates, perhaps what you should have said is when chatting to someone you have only just met have a polite and genuine conversation but when you feel you are getting awkward or feel that they may be then make your reasons to leave before overstaying your welcome...it certainly gives more scope and gets away from this idea of a strict five minutes that you presented with no other information. Theres no way i can assume and suppose that its simply a rule of thumb and not attributed to every situation if you write it as an absolute.

But you simply don't like that you have presented your case as well as you would have liked, to be honest your posts actually make you sound like you know a lot less about people than you like to think. You present quite the dichotomy and i feel you catagorize people quite crudely, i could be wrong. Maybe its a youth thing but its quite possible to be exactly who you are, have a lot of fun, feel very comfortable and allow both people to feel very much at ease with no pressing ideas of dates or phone numbers etc. I've been there, i had terrible times trying to date when i was younger, i understand exactly why you would want to do what you do to find a relationship but personally i feel building yourself up is a better thing. Rather than follow a general rule list to all women i found that you look at everything about you and build all the things that you like about you and work on things you don't like and accept who you are then you become a lot more profound and happier and are able to attract others because they are drawn to a positive and confident individual. Believe me i was the shyest guy ever at school and i have not turned into larger than life overbearing character in order to find women. I am happy with me and that is perceivable by potential mates but the changes i went through were done so i was happy to be me with or without someone else. This way i am happy and not looking to fill any holes with a mate, not looking to date to increase my confidence, not seeing women as achivements as such! You are clearly a highly strung young chap, since you first came here you have had a full on attitude towards women and i think this is pretty much the outcome of the ammount of pressure you have put on yourself to be "sucessfull" with women. I mean its great you are aware of things around you but you have come accross really cold and mechanical in your approach and while it might have some success i feel it lacks something for sure. That is how you came accross and maybe you won't accept that but i think its plain to see. Sure we have to learn as we grow and find ways to behave around people that allow them to warm to us, i mean if we didn't we would still pull girls hair to let them know we liked them. Of course this is your system and far be it from me to tell you what to do but perhaps it will carry more weight when you have a sucessful marriage to back it up.

I'm not keen on your method, i don't think its really all that and whilst i won't dispute what it does the way its presented isn't very favourable by many. I don't think its the most sucessful idea and i am aware you passionately disagree but it doesn't reflect what i have seen in all the sucessfull relationships i am surrounded by. I have been at times in my life when it seems i could have dated anyone and times when girls were nowhere to be seen, i don't think it makes that much difference. When you find someone thats perfect for you i guess it all seems a little out of your control and any rule book you have will get omitted really quite quickly. I hope you find someone that has that type of effect and makes you very happy. But you did present this idea badly!

xCrucialDudex
04-10-2011, 03:20 PM
Well you have already agreed that it is manipulation, you are just going over ground already covered and failing to move forward with the discussion which now resides in discussing the morality of what level of manipulation and to whom and with what intent is acceptable before being considered negative. There were questions about this that you failed to address also and in fact you are doing a poor job of addressing points raised thus your question remains unanswered up to this point but i have considered your question and write with it in mind.

The problem clearly lies with your presentation and trying to share the responsibility out says quite a lot about your mind set here. You have written a bunch of absolutes and are now adding information to them using words like generally, you are actually making things sound different to how it was first written. But still you only explain two types of people and only one type of situation...and perhaps in that one type of situation you are right but there are situations that its absolutely not a good idea at all and personalities that would prefer more than 5 minutes, further more different people interact at different rates, perhaps what you should have said is when chatting to someone you have only just met have a polite and genuine conversation but when you feel you are getting awkward or feel that they may be then make your reasons to leave before overstaying your welcome...it certainly gives more scope and gets away from this idea of a strict five minutes that you presented with no other information. Theres no way i can assume and suppose that its simply a rule of thumb and not attributed to every situation if you write it as an absolute.

But you simply don't like that you have presented your case as well as you would have liked, to be honest your posts actually make you sound like you know a lot less about people than you like to think. You present quite the dichotomy and i feel you catagorize people quite crudely, i could be wrong. Maybe its a youth thing but its quite possible to be exactly who you are, have a lot of fun, feel very comfortable and allow both people to feel very much at ease with no pressing ideas of dates or phone numbers etc. I've been there, i had terrible times trying to date when i was younger, i understand exactly why you would want to do what you do to find a relationship but personally i feel building yourself up is a better thing. Rather than follow a general rule list to all women i found that you look at everything about you and build all the things that you like about you and work on things you don't like and accept who you are then you become a lot more profound and happier and are able to attract others because they are drawn to a positive and confident individual. Believe me i was the shyest guy ever at school and i have not turned into larger than life overbearing character in order to find women. I am happy with me and that is perceivable by potential mates but the changes i went through were done so i was happy to be me with or without someone else. This way i am happy and not looking to fill any holes with a mate, not looking to date to increase my confidence, not seeing women as achivements as such! You are clearly a highly strung young chap, since you first came here you have had a full on attitude towards women and i think this is pretty much the outcome of the ammount of pressure you have put on yourself to be "sucessfull" with women. I mean its great you are aware of things around you but you have come accross really cold and mechanical in your approach and while it might have some success i feel it lacks something for sure. That is how you came accross and maybe you won't accept that but i think its plain to see. Sure we have to learn as we grow and find ways to behave around people that allow them to warm to us, i mean if we didn't we would still pull girls hair to let them know we liked them. Of course this is your system and far be it from me to tell you what to do but perhaps it will carry more weight when you have a sucessful marriage to back it up.

I'm not keen on your method, i don't think its really all that and whilst i won't dispute what it does the way its presented isn't very favourable by many. I don't think its the most sucessful idea and i am aware you passionately disagree but it doesn't reflect what i have seen in all the sucessfull relationships i am surrounded by. I have been at times in my life when it seems i could have dated anyone and times when girls were nowhere to be seen, i don't think it makes that much difference. When you find someone thats perfect for you i guess it all seems a little out of your control and any rule book you have will get omitted really quite quickly. I hope you find someone that has that type of effect and makes you very happy. But you did present this idea badly!

It's kinda funny but I'd say we agree more than disagree now that you've posted this.

The thing about me is that I have a way of talking about specific details of any subject matter in a quite abstract and somewhat detached way. I mean, what looks to you like mindless fixation on mechanistic approach to dating presented as a complete systematic approach, in reality is only a presentation of a tiny aspect of it. Perhaps, yes, something to take into consideration...

Specifically, we agree that building yourself up is the single most important thing to do.

However, I strongly believe it's only a part of the deal. There is a place for this understanding of "technicalities" that I talk about, for it is essentially an understanding of how people interact in social settings, and as I said, whether we like it or not, in most situations, these rules of thumb hold true and giving no thought to this, or purposefully staying in denial about how they work and how they affect your interactions, is simply detrimental to your dating life. Staying in denial or having little understanding of this ultimately results in people walking away from you, losing their interest and attraction towards you. Something I've experienced myself numerous times, and now that I've learned to honor these "rules" and strive to be as flexible as I can in my interactions with girls, the end result is quite astounding. I tend to literally light up people (this specifically is the best reward for me), they (including myself) clearly enjoy the interactions, and generally speaking it leads to more fulfilling and enjoyable relationships with many girls that I meet, from dating to friendship. And yes, it's only part of the deal. It isn't and can't be of itself a panacea for your dating life problems.

Now, I feel it's important to bring this up in conversations simply because I see a lot of guys of my age, and especially younger, missing on this stuff completely. According to you and other people who've posted before, these mechanistic technicalities are not as nearly important as I maintain they are, however, and it should be clear by now to anyone who has followed this thread up to this point that I strongly oppose such a view, for I've witnessed my close friends, all being really nice guys and all-around great people that are quite good with girls overall, lose the girls they like simply because they did or didn't do certain "technical" things in their interactions. It seems they've got what you're talking about but somehow it's not helping them to avoid screwing up the relationships. I'm not talking about my own personal experience, that only reinforces my belief that understanding social dynamics is really crucial to being able to successfully handle your own personal life even further. So, what these guys need, in my view, is a little help in understanding how to adjust their behavior in the realm of social interactions. Not becoming the Darth Vaders of a dating scene, but using their own brains to help them improve and enhance their lives, and by extension the lives of those they interact with.

I realize I'm really driving this point home but you guys just don't seem to be getting it, and there's really nothing else to add so I'll just keep on repeating myself until you start to see it for yourself.

linsee
04-10-2011, 10:22 PM
In fact, this is an awesome input and makes a lot of sense. Essentially, partly it is exactly what I'm talking about here, only in other words. It's funny how a girl points this out right away, while you guys keep on telling me that there's nothing bad in letting your emotions run you and the show, and that I manipulate people and stuff.

Then maybe the way you said it sounded shitty, because I didn't agree with your posts. There shouldn't be "set rules" in how you get a girl interested or how much interest you should show. What there should be is rationality and being able to keep emotions in check, which is something I struggled with. I don't play games or set up how I should or should not act with a guy.


Yeah getting that balance would be nice, it would sure make it easier to deal with if things don't work out. One of the reasons I was so rattled is because I did sort of keep emotions at bay. I kept things at arms length for 3 weeks until she started initiating the couply stuff like telling me how much I mean to her, holding my hand, all that stuff. It was only after she started with that I figured it would be okay to get attached, then 2 days later this crap happens. But I got too attached too early, and that was my fault.

I am actually over it at this point. Talking to family and friends (including responses from everybody here), I have put things into perspective and realised that there is no point in letting this bug me. She isn't worth feeling shitty over :)

Bottom line, you feel better and that's what's important. Just don't give up on the dating stuff, there are great people out there, girls and guys. It took me awhile but I finally am in an awesome relationship.

xCrucialDudex
04-11-2011, 03:08 AM
Then maybe the way you said it sounded shitty, because I didn't agree with your posts. There shouldn't be "set rules" in how you get a girl interested or how much interest you should show. What there should be is rationality and being able to keep emotions in check, which is something I struggled with. I don't play games or set up how I should or should not act with a guy.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by rationality in this context as well as keeping emotions in check, any examples?

As far as I'm concerned, I think that this is a very good and valid point, and it is my understanding that rationality, to a girl, is greatly expressed in how well one understands the social dynamics, that is the very actions we take in interactions that communicate our overall attitude and give all the information about how we may be feeling about that particular girl. And girls, as I've come to see, are a lot better than guys at picking up these little clues, reading into and interpreting them damn quick while at the same time with high accuracy. Sometimes I think you people are really psychic or something

So, drawing on my experience and whatever understanding of social dynamics I have I'd say in mouseman's story are a couple of glaring issues.

He said


About a month ago I met this girl who seemed awesome. We talked for hours every day, hungout every weekend.

I take it they didn't talk literally EVERY single day of the week on the phone for hours, but he made it quite clear that they talked a great deal. I think it is often a bad idea simply because girls really like to miss someone they're interested in. They tend to enjoy the opportunity to sit there and guess what he might be doing at that very moment, is he thinking about me, us, and so on. This is of course counterintuitive for most guys, but by making yourself scarce you actually give a girl what she really needs. And she likes you even more, eventually. Forcing your presence on her is most likely to make her run away. You don't have to take my word for it, you can always go out and try it yourself.


When we started talking she was "kind of" seeing some guy. Before I let it go anywhere I told her I wasn't interested in stealing somebody's girlfriend and she told me that she hasn't had feelings for this guy in while and she ended things with him.

Again, if this is a quote, or even if this is simply a meta message, what he said communicated a very bad thing for attraction. What he basically said was that "you're the boss, you decide what happens, I'm not a part of this, all the power to make a decision where this goes is in your hands". The problem here is that most girls tend to like guys that lead and are dominant (as in positively assertive and knowing what they want from their lives and this particular relationship/girl). And saying something like that tacitly communicates the opposite, and so on a subconscious level that girl must have instantly categorized mouseman as someone who is willing to give up his power to her easily. Well, this is exactly what hundreds of other guys are offering, and that is not interesting, or attractive anymore to her. Think about it. If you're being given or offered something every day of your life it becomes boring and uninteresting very quick. Boring means no emotions, no emotions means no attraction, no attraction means no interest, no interest means no reason for a girl to stick around, so they usually move on to another person in such situations. More interesting one. Which, unfortunately, it seems is exactly what happened to mouseman.


Anyways, long story short, after taking her out for her birthday and having an awesome night with her, the next day I get a text that says we need to stop seeing each other because she still has feelings for this other guy and wants to try to work things out.

So, what happens here? A month of pouring down attention on a poor girl, offering her your own personal power, clearly courting her a little too much, going into her personal life a little too fast (I'm referring to taking her out on her birthday only after a month, discussing other guys she's interested in with her.. you're not her girlfriend!), all of this is enough to make most girls feel kinda creepy and run away. I know, this might sound very strange and counter intuitive but that's the reality of how attraction works for girls, and it's different from how we feel attracted to girls, and on top of this it's kinda illogical (not for girls, only guys) so it's very hard for most guys to figure this out by approaching the topic with their, "male type" of logic.

Whatever happened this night (whether they had have sex or not), mouseman clearly convinced the girl beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is not interesting enough for her. Confirmation came via cellular network as an electronic notification damn quick.

So, while I trust straightXed's judgement and have the utmost belief myself that mouseman is a cool guy that a lot of girls may potentially like and even feel mad about, I see the problem in the story he shared with us that basically comes down to him lacking understanding of social dynamics and perhaps good understanding of how attraction works for girls too.

And my piece of advice is aimed at helping him see this aspect of the story.

Bottom line is, you can the best person in the world but if you don't get how your behavior in social interactions influences your dating life, and how attraction works for girls you're bound to go through the same situation again and again. Until you change what you do (fundamentally, also involves what you think), you will not see the change in this area of your life.

xvunderx
04-12-2011, 09:35 AM
I take it they didn't talk literally EVERY single day of the week on the phone for hours, but he made it quite clear that they talked a great deal. I think it is often a bad idea simply because girls really like to miss someone they're interested in. They tend to enjoy the opportunity to sit there and guess what he might be doing at that very moment, is he thinking about me, us, and so on.

This bit right here is the core of why I, and I dare say many of the other on the board feel that the behavior is negative.

What you are basically talking about is deliberately making girls feel insecure. For some people it might work, but missing people and trying to guess what is going on isn't for the most part "fun", it is a seed of doubt.

I have fallen into that pattern with guys in moments of weakness, (like for example the time I got dumped by a long time boyfriend who it turned out was sleeping with my best mate) I was basically emotionally bruised, and following the abuse. It still makes me feel sad and ashamed to think about over a decade on.

In my healthy frame of mind the guy who hardly speaks to me and barely makes any time for me I just chalk up as not that interested and move on to the next guy who is. I used to be the hot girl at the club, I was one of the girls that stood out, and for a few months I was the DJ at one of the clubs I had used to frequent. The result was lot's of guys came up to me like you said before, but... If a guy was "hey you're cute can I have your number?" the answer was "no" Unless I had spent a good part of any evening talking to a guy no digits.

I wasn't interested in the guys that thought I was "hot" I was interested in the interesting guys. If a dude lost my interest after talking to him for more than 5 mins it was because he was boring, and whether I found that out on the first week or the third it doesn't make a lot of difference, and if it's someone I hardly saw, I'd have been weighing up other options in the time spent not being able to get a hold of them or seeing them.

The fact that you think the best thing to do is to make a girl feel insecure, to manipulate her feeling in a negative way to get her to "like" you is cold. It might work on some people, and normally with already insecure people, but it's not a decent thing to do to a person, and it's not a caring thing to do to a person.

Dating is about getting close to someone, it's about caring for a person and them caring back, the fact that you start out in such an uncaring manner doesn't make you good at dating, it makes you a bad boyfriend material.

Sure it's no good smothering a girl early on, that might come off as desperate, but that doesn't mean make them feel bad, it means hold off on the "I love you"s instead tell her she's looks good tonight instead, buy her toy out of gumball machine instead of a dozen red roses. Stay away from the grand gestures and take hints on how much is too much. It's an organic thing.

xCrucialDudex
05-03-2011, 07:54 AM
This bit right here is the core of why I, and I dare say many of the other on the board feel that the behavior is negative.

What you are basically talking about is deliberately making girls feel insecure. For some people it might work, but missing people and trying to guess what is going on isn't for the most part "fun", it is a seed of doubt.

You completely baffle me here when you say that what I'm talking about is, ostensibly, making a "girl feel insecure".

In my experience, if someone is already insecure they get insecure about a lot of things, and if something in general is unclear or presents a challenge, that may trigger a doubt, even self-doubt and a bunch of other problems can arise as a result, and generally speaking a person may feel bad.

However, I'm usually looking to connect with people who don't have those problems, or at least they can handle them and don't feel like the world is out of control for them. For a girl who's emotionally stable and secure, it doesn't do nothing bad at all. She just doesn't care if you called her twice or didn't call her at all this week. She may start thinking why you haven't been in touch lately but if she learns you were genuinely busy, or you didn't feel like calling her when you meet finally, she doesn't get worked up. Someone who's insecure will take notice of small details and tend to blow things out of proportion, like you didn't call me this week, you don't like me at all, or you're being callous, or whatever really. Someone who is secure, however, will be like okay, when we meet everything seems fine and cool, we're having a good time, you didn't call me because you didn't want to, fine, no big issue... looking at a bigger picture. I've met both types, and I personally appreciate the ability to look at a bigger picture in girls.

Some people are indeed insecure, but hey, just as much as you're not interested in people who tell you you're "hot" and consider that enough of a reason to ask for your digits, I'm not interested in someone who gets worked up over the fact that I might not feel like calling in regularly, or often.

In fact, all of the people I talked to admit that at one point or another in their relationships too much communication, ruins it for them completely. But you don't really disagree on this, either.

So, what you call as "making them feel insecure" I actually refer to as "giving them what they really need". I figure an average girl doesn't need someone calling her in every day and hanging with her on the phone for hours. It may work with some girls, for some short time. Most of them just don't need that. As you said yourself "it's no good smothering a girl early on", in fact it's rarely good, if only fleetingly.

Now, let me ask you this. Did you really enjoy a lot of attention, like people calling you in every day, talking to you for hours, wanting to see you each day in the very beginning (say first a couple of months)? Or, perhaps, did you enjoy a lot more someone who was slightly out of reach, gave you a room and time to live your own life, someone who's a little "mysterious" and taking the lead and generally speaking being dominant (not controlling or smth, rather not willing to put up with anything you might have on your mind at any given time, having a character and a spine, confident enough to communicate that he likes you in a way that doesn't come across as soppy or horny, etc.), and basically making you feel great?

I'm going to make a guess and say it's the latter "type". This, I figure, is what most women are really looking for in men on the basic level. And if those men who approach them naturally don't get it, the only option they have is to learn it the hard way, through trial and error. Without "manipulation", as you guys call it, education process really, it's just impossible for those people to see what they're doing wrong.



...

In my healthy frame of mind the guy who hardly speaks to me and barely makes any time for me I just chalk up as not that interested and move on to the next guy who is. I used to be the hot girl at the club, I was one of the girls that stood out, and for a few months I was the DJ at one of the clubs I had used to frequent. The result was lot's of guys came up to me like you said before, but... If a guy was "hey you're cute can I have your number?" the answer was "no" Unless I had spent a good part of any evening talking to a guy no digits.

Well, if someone approaches me and says something like that, I may not be willing to give my info either. Did you run into guys who managed to get your interest without actually spending a good part of an evening talking to you in those times? Do you still remember how it felt? Like, there was something different about the guy, and even though you realized you didn't usually give your info to anyone easily, you still did, you just felt there was something different about him, you just couldn't spell what exactly it was, but you felt like you could give him your info. It's almost inexplicable.

Chances are that happened to you quite a few times, and that would clearly contradict your logical approach to how things ought to be. Point is attraction for the most part is kind of illogical, it's very counter intuitive, that's why they say that when people are in love they do crazy things.

So, what I'm trying to say here is that you're talking from the perspective of how you think things ought to be, when in reality everything that happens in the dating arena largely plays out differently. And while you may think that someone who doesn't call you more than once a week for the first a couple of months is something you're not interested, may in fact be exactly what powerfully fuels your attraction towards that particular person.

What if someone does that on purpose and manipulates your to their own benefit? That's terrible, there's no argument about it. Is it still wrong if someone who genuinely likes you doesn't "get it" naturally, and consciously resists his own urge to call you twice a day and ask you out every day, someone who knows that doing so will most likely ruin your attraction and interest very quickly, and basically give you the opposite of what you really like and what will enable you both to enjoy a possible relationship? He might screw up a few times here and there, overdo the "being mysterious" part, or dominant, or less communication... but in the grand scheme of things, is it so wrong if someone actually does something that might enhance your life, and your relationship between you two?

I'd really love to see you address this question, please, be honest. However, I've noticed that most women are uncomfortable with the idea that a guy is learning how to become better with women. Well, they seem to feel okay about it if they're not dating a guy like that. Every woman wants a man who already gets it. Nothing wrong with that, men are the same basically. We all want someone experienced, so that we don't have to explain everything along the way.

So, considering this, you really leave no option for people to become better. You label education process as manipulation and you tend to discard those who don't get it. I've a problem with only the first part, but I guess you already know this.


I wasn't interested in the guys that thought I was "hot" I was interested in the interesting guys. If a dude lost my interest after talking to him for more than 5 mins it was because he was boring, and whether I found that out on the first week or the third it doesn't make a lot of difference, and if it's someone I hardly saw, I'd have been weighing up other options in the time spent not being able to get a hold of them or seeing them.

Define interesting.


The fact that you think the best thing to do is to make a girl feel insecure, to manipulate her feeling in a negative way to get her to "like" you is cold. It might work on some people, and normally with already insecure people, but it's not a decent thing to do to a person, and it's not a caring thing to do to a person.

I hope you're starting to see that I don't mean anything like that at all.


Dating is about getting close to someone, it's about caring for a person and them caring back, the fact that you start out in such an uncaring manner doesn't make you good at dating, it makes you a bad boyfriend material.

Yes, that is correct to a certain degree, only dating is also about attraction. Which isn't in line with that what you're talking about. If you're really honest about it with yourself you should see what I'm talking about here. You completely discard the attraction bit in this whole dating game, which is so important, I can't begin to tell how it is. Without attraction there can be nothing.


Sure it's no good smothering a girl early on, that might come off as desperate, but that doesn't mean make them feel bad, it means hold off on the "I love you"s instead tell her she's looks good tonight instead, buy her toy out of gumball machine instead of a dozen red roses. Stay away from the grand gestures and take hints on how much is too much. It's an organic thing.

A very good piece of advice shared here. I hope you really start to see that I'm not championing the idea of manipulating anyone.

xvunderx
05-03-2011, 04:35 PM
Ugh this was a long post after 2 nights of not sleeping, but I'll give it a whirl....


You completely baffle me here when you say that what I'm talking about is, ostensibly, making a "girl feel insecure".

I'm refering to the following point you made previously....

because girls really like to miss someone they're interested in. They tend to enjoy the opportunity to sit there and guess what he might be doing at that very moment, is he thinking about me, us, and so on.

This statement showed that part of your action of not calling was to illicit the reaction of the girl sitting and wondering, because girls like that. Girls don't wonder about things they feel secure with, hence the suggestion that you were trying to foster insecurity.


In my experience, if someone is already insecure they get insecure about a lot of things, and if something in general is unclear or presents a challenge, that may trigger a doubt, even self-doubt and a bunch of other problems can arise as a result, and generally speaking a person may feel bad.

However, I'm usually looking to connect with people who don't have those problems, or at least they can handle them and don't feel like the world is out of control for them. For a girl who's emotionally stable and secure, it doesn't do nothing bad at all. She just doesn't care if you called her twice or didn't call her at all this week. She may start thinking why you haven't been in touch lately but if she learns you were genuinely busy, or you didn't feel like calling her when you meet finally, she doesn't get worked up.

But you say not calling should be systematic, it's not about being busy thus negating that point. And if I and other girls don't talk to a new guy a lot it probably isn't a big deal, but keep it up for a few weeks and don't be surprised to find some other dude is meeting up with her instead who did call.


Someone who's insecure will take notice of small details and tend to blow things out of proportion, like you didn't call me this week, you don't like me at all, or you're being callous, or whatever really. Someone who is secure, however, will be like okay, when we meet everything seems fine and cool, we're having a good time, you didn't call me because you didn't want to, fine, no big issue... looking at a bigger picture. I've met both types, and I personally appreciate the ability to look at a bigger picture in girls.

Some people are indeed insecure, but hey, just as much as you're not interested in people who tell you you're "hot" and consider that enough of a reason to ask for your digits, I'm not interested in someone who gets worked up over the fact that I might not feel like calling in regularly, or often.

It's not about a girl getting worked up, or even noticing these things. it's about making a conscious decision to ignore the girl save for a couple of minutes a week to illicit the feelings you want her to feel. That is callus and manipulative.


In fact, all of the people I talked to admit that at one point or another in their relationships too much communication, ruins it for them completely. But you don't really disagree on this, either.

Nope. I'm saying be organic, talk to her if there is something to talk about, and take cues.


So, what you call as "making them feel insecure" I actually refer to as "giving them what they really need". I figure an average girl doesn't need someone calling her in every day and hanging with her on the phone for hours. It may work with some girls, for some short time. Most of them just don't need that. As you said yourself "it's no good smothering a girl early on", in fact it's rarely good, if only fleetingly.

No what I am calling "making people feel insecure" is acting in a way specifically so they are "sitting around wondering...." as you mentioned in the previous space. There is a difference between.... "hmm, i don;t really have anything to say to her today, I'll call up tomorrow to see if she wants to go skating" and "I spoke to her last night, if I don't call her again till next week she'll start thinking about me and I can capitalize on that."


Now, let me ask you this. Did you really enjoy a lot of attention, like people calling you in every day, talking to you for hours, wanting to see you each day in the very beginning (say first a couple of months)?

If we had stuff to do together or something to talk about sure why not.


Or, perhaps, did you enjoy a lot more someone who was slightly out of reach, gave you a room and time to live your own life, someone who's a little "mysterious"

Ha, last time I had a guy I didn't talk to very much like that, by the time I saw him again I was seeing someone else.


and taking the lead and generally speaking being dominant (not controlling or smth, rather not willing to put up with anything you might have on your mind at any given time

If they didn't have time for whatever was going on in my life, they weren't going to be going on in my life.


having a character and a spine, confident enough to communicate that he likes you in a way that doesn't come across as soppy or horny, etc.), and basically making you feel great?

I was with the guy who I shared enough interests with to spend time together that was full of things like skating, going to shows, clubs etc and thus could see them regularly without them seeming "sloppy and horny". I was with the guy who respected me on multiple levels as a person so it didn't have to boil down to "I want to have sex with you I want to have sex with you..." every time we were together. It's perfectly easy to not be the sloppy horny guy if you want to spend time with the girl for the sake of spending time with the girl.


I'm going to make a guess and say it's the latter "type".

No desperate "I want your sex guy", and "I don't have time to hear about your tough dissertation" guy both got dropped.


This, I figure, is what most women are really looking for in men on the basic level. And if those men who approach them naturally don't get it, the only option they have is to learn it the hard way, through trial and error. Without "manipulation", as you guys call it, education process really, it's just impossible for those people to see what they're doing wrong.

Women aren't textbook creatures, there is no system, only sensitivity to different situations can help, and that is learned by falling on your ass a few times with relationships.


Well, if someone approaches me and says something like that, I may not be willing to give my info either. Did you run into guys who managed to get your interest without actually spending a good part of an evening talking to you in those times?

Yes. If the guy was a smoking hottie he'd catch my eye. But I would always weigh up visual clues, things like band shirts and style of dress, if they were obviously into hardcore etc then there was a chance we'd have something in common. If they looked appealing and like the kind of guy i was interested in I might go up to them and strike up a conversation when I wasn't laughing or dancing with my friends (half girls half guys by the way). If the conversation was interesting and we had a fair bit in common I might have seen them again.


Do you still remember how it felt? Like, there was something different about the guy, and even though you realized you didn't usually give your info to anyone easily, you still did, you just felt there was something different about him, you just couldn't spell what exactly it was, but you felt like you could give him your info. It's almost inexplicable.

Yes! I do remember a few guys like that! one guy I spent half an all weekend show hanging out with between bands, the other I spent 8 hours with on the phone the first time he called and then eventually ended up marrying. there was also a cute guy that came in to the club room I ran every week who I would talk to a lot.



Chances are that happened to you quite a few times, and that would clearly contradict your logical approach to how things ought to be.

Honestly no. There were a few guys i thought were good looking and fit the clues of being into the same things i was for various reasons, but if I never got to know them I didn't really get hung up on them.


Point is attraction for the most part is kind of illogical, it's very counter intuitive, that's why they say that when people are in love they do crazy things.

Not to me it isn't, there were certain physical traits I found attractive, and i was interested in guys I had a lot in common with. If a guy was intelligent, funny, principled, and shared a passion for at least a few of the same I loved, then attraction happened (also if we both hated a lot of the same things too, that was a huge plus).


So, what I'm trying to say here is that you're talking from the perspective of how you think things ought to be, when in reality everything that happens in the dating arena largely plays out differently.

No I'm talking about how I and people I knew like me worked. I'm taking as a woman who had a string of successful relationships when I was younger (most 1 year plus) that ended because with age and time we grew up differently, who then found her soul mate, married him and has been happily married for 9 years, and still enjoys spending time with that special someone even after living together for close to a decade.



And while you may think that someone who doesn't call you more than once a week for the first a couple of months is something you're not interested, may in fact be exactly what powerfully fuels your attraction towards that particular person.

No honestly I dated those guys, it's fine for a while, but I wasn't waiting around for a couple of months, I was entertaining the idea of other people who caught my attention sooner and snapped me up before "once a week guy" even got to 1st base.


What if someone does that on purpose and manipulates your to their own benefit? That's terrible, there's no argument about it. Is it still wrong if someone who genuinely likes you doesn't "get it" naturally, and consciously resists his own urge to call you twice a day and ask you out every day, someone who knows that doing so will most likely ruin your attraction and interest very quickly, and basically give you the opposite of what you really like and what will enable you both to enjoy a possible relationship?

it isn't about quantity, it's about quality. If a guy keeps calling asking "what are you doing?" or going on about how much he loves me etc, too much not interested.

But if I have a lot in common with the guy, and the calls are about funny jokes, hanging out for a hot chocolate whilst talking smack about a local band be both hate, followed by genuine interest in say art, or debates on whatever, then he can call up as much as he likes, from day one, to day 201. It's not about timing or quantity of calls, it's about being interesting and treating me and other girls as human beings.


He might screw up a few times here and there, overdo the "being mysterious" part, or dominant, or less communication... but in the grand scheme of things, is it so wrong if someone actually does something that might enhance your life, and your relationship between you two?

If he's playing mysterious and aloof, I'm not kidding, he would have missed his chance. Being fake in any way would not "enhance my life" I am turned off by fakeness and could always smell it a mile away.


I'd really love to see you address this question, please, be honest. However, I've noticed that most women are uncomfortable with the idea that a guy is learning how to become better with women. Well, they seem to feel okay about it if they're not dating a guy like that. Every woman wants a man who already gets it. Nothing wrong with that, men are the same basically. We all want someone experienced, so that we don't have to explain everything along the way.

I want a guy who is real, and doesn't need to hide anything or play at anything because his real self is a man I want to be with.


So, considering this, you really leave no option for people to become better. You label education process as manipulation and you tend to discard those who don't get it. I've a problem with only the first part, but I guess you already know this.

making a prescribed way of acting isn't learning. learning is becoming sensitive to various situations and fluidly responding well. A lot of the time the problem isn't "being bad" it's being with the wrong person.

If I guy can't naturally hold my interest, then we probably aren't a good match.



Define interesting.

Easy!... someone who is smart, spontaneous, witty and has common interests.



I hope you're starting to see that I don't mean anything like that at all.

I think you might be one of the many people who tries to date purely on physical attraction and perhaps have to resort to this kind of manipulation because you aren't out there looking for core compatibility.


Yes, that is correct to a certain degree, only dating is also about attraction. Which isn't in line with that what you're talking about.

No I've been alive for 30 years, it's been exactly this way it's worked since I was in high school. I'm attracted to people, not just looks.


If you're really honest about it with yourself you should see what I'm talking about here. You completely discard the attraction bit in this whole dating game, which is so important, I can't begin to tell how it is. Without attraction there can be nothing.

True, but for attraction to happen I have to know about the person. It's not "he's hot, I want his penis" Attraction isn't just physical, it's a complicated thing that is about the whole person inside and out. I've dated guys who were crazy hot, but they were also kinda dumb, they got 1-2 dates tops.

I'm serious dude I'm taking into account all about attraction. But personality is a big part of attraction.



A very good piece of advice shared here. I hope you really start to see that I'm not championing the idea of manipulating anyone.

Not really because you keep talking about formula to "enhance attraction"

xCrucialDudex
05-04-2011, 10:58 AM
Ugh this was a long post after 2 nights of not sleeping, but I'll give it a whirl....

Yeah, these long posts are killing me too! I've actually just accidentally pressed Ctrl+W and closed an almost finished, detailed reply to this long post of yours! Man, now I'll have to start over from scratch... This one will be less detailed, unfortunately.



I'm referring to the following point you made previously....


This statement showed that part of your action of not calling was to illicit the reaction of the girl sitting and wondering, because girls like that. Girls don't wonder about things they feel secure with, hence the suggestion that you were trying to foster insecurity.


This is essentially the core of our argument. I'll address this more in detail below.



But you say not calling should be systematic, it's not about being busy thus negating that point. And if I and other girls don't talk to a new guy a lot it probably isn't a big deal, but keep it up for a few weeks and don't be surprised to find some other dude is meeting up with her instead who did call.

I don't know if you've read all of the posts in this thread but I'll repeat it again. The initial succinct, instructional style of a piece of advice I gave mouseman was presented in such a form deliberately to avoid placing a stupendous burden of thinking about a possibly whole set of new ideas and perspective on him. Also, throughout my replies I mentioned things like "first couple of months", "in the beginning [of a relationship]", etc. I also added later that if one sticks with this strategy mindlessly it'll backfire on them eventually. All this was implied from the very beginning, but for the sake of simplicity and brevity I reduced it all to a few simple guidelines. Point is I'd rather see someone act than think about it first. This is the kind of thing that requires experience. Before you can step back and think about it, you have to have something to think about, the experience.



It's not about a girl getting worked up, or even noticing these things. it's about making a conscious decision to ignore the girl save for a couple of minutes a week to illicit the feelings you want her to feel. That is callus and manipulative.

Okay, so, your idea basically is be organic, as you put it, do whatever you feel is necessary, read the feedback (the clues) and adjust accordingly, all while treating a girl decently, as a person, and staying true to yourself, never pretend to be who you are not. Is that correct?

Assuming that is a correct understanding, tell me how helpful and effective is this perspective to someone whose natural tendencies ultimately inhibit their success in dating life? I don't know if you're aware of this, but there are literally bazillions of guys who act organic and basically fit your model of proper approach to improving one's dating life. What they get is constantly hit a dead end, they get turned down by girls almost always, or worst, many simply tend to run away from them, either on the spot or later when they get a little closer. I'm talking about a situation where some 85-90% of girls turn a guy down some 90% of the times (rough estimates). If this sounds a little far-fetched, it is not. This is the reality most guys live in.

Considering the fact that attraction is something most of those guys don't even think about, let alone the fact they don't have a good understanding of how it works for women, all you offer to them is keep on doing the same mistakes over and over again, until they manage to learn from them and become better, without the right to consult any external source for the help and try out new things? It doesn't have to be this hard.

I concur with you to a certain degree, though. Everything you say about a guy having desirable characteristics such as wit, sense of humor, charm, common interests, etc. is essential. It doesn't define attraction, though.

There are jerks and control freaks out there of varying degree of assholeness that many women are addicted to and their abusive behavior. It clearly contradicts what those women tell themselves and people around them what they're looking for in men, the fact remains they choose jerks over nice guys. Now, why is that so? The answer is both quite simple and complex, the attraction. Attraction has little to do with logically defined, desirable prerequisites a woman might have as an idea of personal preference for it to happen.

You also say in support of your argument, drawing on your successful personal experience, that without actual interaction attraction cannot happen. Well, I've sparked attraction in a couple of girls without actually talking to them in the street. Not a word. It was all non-verbal communication. It's fairly hard to pull off, but it is possible and a lot of fun to do. And also clearly demonstrates how attraction is independent of actual verbal communication.

So, I have to make a conclusion that you have quite a vague understanding of attraction, what role it plays in all of this and how greatly it is important, because clearly, your examples contradict the reality of things in this world. And the reality is that at the very core level, women feel attracted not to certain characteristics men have per se, but certain emotions, a certain way they feel around those men. Those desirable characteristics, personal preferences, tend to trigger attraction automatically, so most of the time the attraction mechanism and its work goes under the radar of most people, I guess. We just don't give it much thought. Those desirable characteristics, once met, help things go smoother, and are basically powerful clues to a girl, as you proved it in your reply, that a guy may be interesting, but for the sake of the argument I want to point out they're not what creates attraction per se. Those characteristics vary from girl to girl greatly. What sparks attraction for you, may be of no interest to another girl. Underpinning this big range of various, desirable characteristics as a sum of all women's preferences combined is a specific emotion, the attraction.

This is crucial to realize. If you give a piece of advice from the perspective of your personal preferences and what works for you, well, all you do is basically tell someone how to spark attraction in you and people similar to you. Chances are that a person you give advice to will run in a lot of people who aren't nothing like you, they will have different preferences and so your piece of advice won't work in those situations.

Now, with this in mind, let's get back to the model of advice on how to approach the issue of improving one's dating life that you and other forum members seem to share. The biggest problem with it, as I see it, is that you're are strongly opposed to the idea of trying out certain things in order to learn from them while they, supposedly, imply conscious manipulation.

Imagine there's a guy who acts organic but somehow girls don't date him. They just don't seem to be interested. He's doing his best but it just never works out right. He tries to read the clues, but they often don't make much sense. He tries to adjust, but it still doesn't work. He keeps on doing that over and over again, only to see girls turning him down again and again. If this sounds far-fetched too, it is not, it's a reality a lot of guys live in.

As you may tell I have a special interest in this topic, and I've been taking notice of a lot of things going on around me, and I can tell you for sure, most guys following this path progress too slow for them to have anything in their lives before they're dead. I'm not exaggerating here, not a bit. I've seen years and years of my own life wasted on this, as well as many years of my friends' lives wasted on this most impracticable approach with few actual, real improvements over the years. I'm not going to mention how much stress it can place on a person and how that may lead to various problems as a result. Point is, very few people can improve and do that fairly fast without any help in this area.

So, these guys they just don't get it. Like, they completely miss what's really going on around them. Or, alternatively, they may lack an understanding of a few crucial concepts, etc.

So, how do they learn and do it relatively fast, so that they're not 50 when they realize what attraction is really about and how social dynamics works when it comes to dating?

What you suggest is let them fumble about their way in a pitch black room, stumbling over the stuff, breaking it and falling down quite often on their asses.

I see learning process and making mistakes as inseparable. But do we really need to put someone in a pitch black room and let them break their neck trying to navigate it? That sounds like a terrible idea to me.

We don't have much control of where people are being put in their lives, so it's not like we can give them a room with light easily. But we can give them a matchsticks box, or a torch, or a flashlight, or even teach them how to wire this room and have electric lighting in it so they can switch it on or off whenever they need it.

So, it's clear they need to learn. But what is learning? For the sake of brevity, I'm not going to cover this topic in breadth and will focus on that which pertains the most.

Essentially learning is a process of acquiring new or modification of existing knowledge. It can be done either consciously or unconsciously.

So, we differ in supporting different approaches here. Me championing the idea of pragmatic change towards the desired results (conscious learning) and you, and other forum members, maintaining the position that unconscious, trial-and-error kind of learning is more proper.

In either situations people are going to push the limits of what is deemed as acceptable and decent practice, okay?

I can see how doing that unconsciously may gain more favorable view. However, we can't seriously talk about unconscious learning in this hypothetical scenario of a guy who doesn't get it, because people who progress naturally fast need not to question the necessity to learn consciously that at which they excel naturally well. For them, this happens smoothly and naturally, and so they never really stop to question things. Those who face the problem of doing naturally something that leads to undesirable results start to question the nature of their problem at one point or another, and so whatever they do from that point on isn't purely unconscious anymore. They will always think if that what they're doing will lead to this or that result, if it's desirable or not. Even the example you provided that suggested taking clues and adjusting behavior in response is a conscious learning process by definition, for it requires a conscious effort of monitoring the feedback, thinking, modifying the knowledge, values, behavior, etc. ALSO trying out new things to see if your response is working or not.

So, we're not talking absolute terms here, consciousness in the learning is on a continuum and simply varies from situation to situation.

Also when it comes to social skills and attraction you can't just tell someone what the limits are and expect them to apply this knowledge effectively and never push them in one way or another, as if they already have had the insight and gained a real-life experience. A person will have to make a few mistakes in order to learn what works and what doesn't. To gain a feeling of what and how works. Either way they're going to push the limits, might hurt other people in the process as a result, themselves, whether they follow someone's advice or try out some things on their own, spontaneously. It's simply inevitable, whatever path you choose to go. So, what exactly is wrong with giving someone a tool to acquire and subsequently modify their knowledge with? Especially when that tool may give them a boost in learning and help save a great deal of time?

Yeah, I know you say you can't just manipulate people under any condition. Well, we manipulate each other constantly and incessantly. Think about it. You and other people tend to think of it in absolute term, which is far from reality. We all manipulate each other to a certain degree. Always. You just can't avoid doing that. It's impractical, just as much as trying to never lie, or always tell the truth. Just as well as telling always the truth may hurt people and cause emotional damage. It doesn't mean I suggest we go on a unscrupulous manipulating spree, though. All I'm saying that being pragmatic about your dating skills is the most sensible approach that eventually does more good than bad on a larger scale.

More importantly, the end goal from my perspective is to improve one's own skills to become better at dating in such a way that a person doesn't have serious, inhibiting problems in this area anymore and it leads to a more fulfilled and happy life fast, and with as minimum emotional/psychological damage to everyone involved as is possible.

You really have to start taking into account what I've written in this reply and the previous ones. I was never talking about unscrupulously manipulating anyone.

I also felt it was important to address this


I think you might be one of the many people who tries to date purely on physical attraction and perhaps have to resort to this kind of manipulation because you aren't out there looking for core compatibility.

No, that is not me. I'm irresistibly drawn to awesome personalities, and while I strive to find someone who has it all, personality, intelligence, emotional maturity, etc. and also astounding looks, I've always chosen personality over looks. In fact, I'm infamous with my friends for dating sometimes girls whose looks would literally repel them, and they would pick on me in a half-friendly manner for this. I'm also notorious for dating girls with bad rep. Well, I didn't give a shit about all that. I saw that those people were cool, so I hanged out with them despite of all the rumors and opinions.

It's also kinda funny that you use a "physical attraction" word combination here, because while I admit that initially I, as a man, fall for looks uncontrollably, I'm a strong believer that looks isn't everythig and always try to figure out if there's anything worth my time and attention beyond a pretty face or enticingly looking bottom. Because, at the end of the day I guess I like a company of a cool person a lot more than just a pretty visual image or a sexy body in a bed beside me.


I asked everyone who participated in this thread, or those simply interested in the discussion, to write their opinion on how they would ago about giving a piece of advice to someone who struggles in dating arena. No one really, replied except straightXed, I guess. I really see no better solution than a conscious, pragmatic change towards improvement in this area of one's life. I hope I made it clear in this particular reply why I think so. If you think differently, you're welcome to share your perspective.

xsecx
05-04-2011, 06:17 PM
please define attraction and "success in dating"

xCrucialDudex
05-05-2011, 01:09 AM
please define attraction and "success in dating"

Attraction is an emotional response elicited and reinforced by a myriad of factors that vary greatly in their diversity. I'd roughly divide it into two constituents: genetic "wiring" and cultural indoctrination.

Attraction is essentially genetically determined, and free will has very little real influence here. It's not a learned behavior and thus is out of our control to change or influence it significantly.

Cultural programming/baggage plays a considerable role in all of this, but it is essentially irrelevant as is evidenced by most illogical choices people make when it comes to attraction and relationships and their ideas of how things ought to be.

Success in dating may seem like a very personal idea and may indeed vary from person to person greatly, however, it is significantly influenced by cultural indoctrination, and so on one hand it's culturally defined (as much as idea of love, etc.) and is very similar for most members of a given culture, on the other hand within a given culture one can see a certain range of variations of this idea. It is important to note that variations are being limited and suppressed by the predominant cultural values.

It is my view that if a person struggles in a certain aspect of their dating life, s/he doesn't feel in control most of the time or competent enough to have a realistic success as they define it, there's certainly a problem that needs attention.

In the context of this thread I saw a problem in the very first post of the topic starter:


Now I realise this doesn't seem like a big deal to others, I was only seeing her for 4 weeks, who cares. But the reason I am so rattled really has nothing to do with this girl specifically, but is because this almost exact situation happened to me about 2 years ago (with a girl I was in love with) and it killed me back then. I haven't let myself get attached to anyone since then. After this new girl initiates everything with me I finally decide it is okay to allow myself to get attached/involved with someone again, and this is what I get for it.

This rings an alarm for me, because I can sense a note of desperation here. A clear indication of a struggle, it's not about a specific person but about a type of situation that a guy is recurrently running into. And it doesn't feel like he's in control here and handles it the way he'd love to be able to.

xsecx
05-05-2011, 09:08 AM
Attraction is an emotional response elicited and reinforced by a myriad of factors that vary greatly in their diversity. I'd roughly divide it into two constituents: genetic "wiring" and cultural indoctrination.

Attraction is essentially genetically determined, and free will has very little real influence here. It's not a learned behavior and thus is out of our control to change or influence it significantly.

Cultural programming/baggage plays a considerable role in all of this, but it is essentially irrelevant as is evidenced by most illogical choices people make when it comes to attraction and relationships and their ideas of how things ought to be.

Success in dating may seem like a very personal idea and may indeed vary from person to person greatly, however, it is significantly influenced by cultural indoctrination, and so on one hand it's culturally defined (as much as idea of love, etc.) and is very similar for most members of a given culture, on the other hand within a given culture one can see a certain range of variations of this idea. It is important to note that variations are being limited and suppressed by the predominant cultural values.

It is my view that if a person struggles in a certain aspect of their dating life, s/he doesn't feel in control most of the time or competent enough to have a realistic success as they define it, there's certainly a problem that needs attention.

In the context of this thread I saw a problem in the very first post of the topic starter:



This rings an alarm for me, because I can sense a note of desperation here. A clear indication of a struggle, it's not about a specific person but about a type of situation that a guy is recurrently running into. And it doesn't feel like he's in control here and handles it the way he'd love to be able to.

That was really vague and not really helpful. You seem really into hard definitions and rules, so I was wondering how you define attractive. What is attraction to you? What makes you attractive to others and what do you find attractive in others? And what do you consider success in dating? I mean, you don't think people that are happily married know anything about being successful in dating, so I'm curious as to what that means.

mouseman004
05-05-2011, 02:16 PM
In the context of this thread I saw a problem in the very first post of the topic starter:



This rings an alarm for me, because I can sense a note of desperation here. A clear indication of a struggle, it's not about a specific person but about a type of situation that a guy is recurrently running into. And it doesn't feel like he's in control here and handles it the way he'd love to be able to.

How do you possibly get desperation from this? I was seeing a girl, I liked her and she liked me, then things went bad, it bugged me for a little while. You are reading way too much into things.

xCrucialDudex
05-05-2011, 05:19 PM
That was really vague and not really helpful. You seem really into hard definitions and rules, so I was wondering how you define attractive. What is attraction to you? What makes you attractive to others and what do you find attractive in others? And what do you consider success in dating?

I'm sorry that doesn't tell you much but that's exactly how I see attraction, and to me that is a very good explanation of this phenomenon. Considering its complexity I feel it's almost impossible to describe it well in a more simple definition, because anything less would simply leave out all the important bits and distort the idea considerably.

In short, attractive is eliciting a specific emotion, attraction. What is attraction to me in terms of personal preferences (aka desirable characteristics of a partner) is pretty irrelevant when you consider the varying multitude of all people's personal preferences that make up a range with opposite ends. Simply put, it varies from person to person, sometimes greatly, and even cross-culturally. But I've really already said that.

If you really want me to give specific descriptions of desirable characteristics they would be roughly as the following:
- smell that I like
- tone of voice
- body language
- looks (pretty face, petite physique, fit, rather small breasts than big ones)
- height (somewhat shorter than me)
- dark hair color
- mostly caucasian or asian ethnicity
- intelligence
- wit
- gentle character or tough character
- emotional maturity
- independence
- self-reliance
- sense of humor
- class
- style (casual, classy, etc.)
- education
- broad interests
- personality
- individuality

there may be even more to this list, but I really see no point in covering it all since it is indeed irrelevant. Other people may have a very different idea of what makes another person attractive to them.

What makes me attractive to others, if we're looking at it from genetic wiring perspective, it's basically exactly the same what makes you and every other guy attractive to the opposite sex. If we're looking at it from cultural perspective and people's personal preferences I think I'm in no position to say anything here for someone else. I know that there are people who both strongly like what and who I am, as well as those who even vehemently hate me. As I've said numerous times already, it all varies from person to person.

I've also already said what I defines as success in dating:


It is my view that if a person struggles in a certain aspect of their dating life, s/he doesn't feel in control most of the time or competent enough to have a realistic success as they define it, there's certainly a problem that needs attention.

So, to elaborate a bit on this statement, my idea of success in dating is having realistic expectations about success in dating in the first place (like, you can't expect every girl to like you, or you can't expect to never get turned down or rejected, etc.). Then, having established a more or less realistic expectations, I see being able to easily go out and meet new people, connect with them relatively easy, and turn those connections into either long term relationships or something less serious without much trouble as being successful at dating. If you're again looking to see more specific examples it's a bit hard to provide, because sometimes I feel like dating a lot of people, sometimes not. Sometimes I want to just have fun, the other time I want to stick with one particular person and develop a serious relationship. I also tend to see dating as an art or science of sorts, an area where perfection and mastery is never really achieved and so I really enjoy to perfect my skills in this area and see progress, how my interactions and dates, and relationships become more sophisticated with time. So, considering this, being able to do all of that when I feel like doing it, is to me being successful at dating.


I mean, you don't think people that are happily married know anything about being successful in dating, so I'm curious as to what that means.

I know people who got married and never really had that level of success in their dating lives they wanted. Specifically, I know one guy who never really learned to approach someone he really liked anywhere and go through a typical dating scenario. He would almost always be approached somehow, magically by the girls. He got approached by his would be wife one day, instead. And so they got married eventually. We're good friends, and we talked about it, he admitted that he was literally afraid of approaching women with the purpose of getting a date, and he was very uncomfortable about that fact. He also realized he might never learn that now that he was married and has children. Now, that's so painful to me, because he clearly isn't happy about his own situation, but he tries not to give it much thought. He doesn't need those skills much anymore now, so it kinda works for him.

That's not to say I'm claiming you and your wife don't know nothing about being successful in dating. However, you try to make it sound as if anyone who's married automatically is also experienced in dating. That's not always the case, so I felt it was needed to be pointed out.

xCrucialDudex
05-05-2011, 05:24 PM
How do you possibly get desperation from this? I was seeing a girl, I liked her and she liked me, then things went bad, it bugged me for a little while. You are reading way too much into things.

It just feels like that when I read it. I may've got it wrong, but you said yourself that this situation happened to you not for the first time now and it bugs you. So, do you feel like you are in control when it happens? Do you understand the reasons why it happens? Can you really change anything so that it doesn't happen regularly? Do you have an idea what will happen instead of such a situation, how different will it all be?

xsecx
05-05-2011, 06:40 PM
I'm sorry that doesn't tell you much but that's exactly how I see attraction, and to me that is a very good explanation of this phenomenon. Considering its complexity I feel it's almost impossible to describe it well in a more simple definition, because anything less would simply leave out all the important bits and distort the idea considerably.

In short, attractive is eliciting a specific emotion, attraction. What is attraction to me in terms of personal preferences (aka desirable characteristics of a partner) is pretty irrelevant when you consider the varying multitude of all people's personal preferences that make up a range with opposite ends. Simply put, it varies from person to person, sometimes greatly, and even cross-culturally. But I've really already said that.

If you really want me to give specific descriptions of desirable characteristics they would be roughly as the following:
- smell that I like
- tone of voice
- body language
- looks (pretty face, petite physique, fit, rather small breasts than big ones)
- height (somewhat shorter than me)
- dark hair color
- mostly caucasian or asian ethnicity
- intelligence
- wit
- gentle character or tough character
- emotional maturity
- independence
- self-reliance
- sense of humor
- class
- style (casual, classy, etc.)
- education
- broad interests
- personality
- individuality

there may be even more to this list, but I really see no point in covering it all since it is indeed irrelevant. Other people may have a very different idea of what makes another person attractive to them.

What makes me attractive to others, if we're looking at it from genetic wiring perspective, it's basically exactly the same what makes you and every other guy attractive to the opposite sex. If we're looking at it from cultural perspective and people's personal preferences I think I'm in no position to say anything here for someone else. I know that there are people who both strongly like what and who I am, as well as those who even vehemently hate me. As I've said numerous times already, it all varies from person to person.


If it all varies person to person, then why have you said most what you've said in this thread? If attraction is in fact varied, then how can you pretend that there's some kind of rule book you can create on how to treat each individual situation? If you want someone that's independent, then why do you talk about women needed men?




I've also already said what I defines as success in dating:



So, to elaborate a bit on this statement, my idea of success in dating is having realistic expectations about success in dating in the first place (like, you can't expect every girl to like you, or you can't expect to never get turned down or rejected, etc.). Then, having established a more or less realistic expectations, I see being able to easily go out and meet new people, connect with them relatively easy, and turn those connections into either long term relationships or something less serious without much trouble as being successful at dating. If you're again looking to see more specific examples it's a bit hard to provide, because sometimes I feel like dating a lot of people, sometimes not. Sometimes I want to just have fun, the other time I want to stick with one particular person and develop a serious relationship. I also tend to see dating as an art or science of sorts, an area where perfection and mastery is never really achieved and so I really enjoy to perfect my skills in this area and see progress, how my interactions and dates, and relationships become more sophisticated with time. So, considering this, being able to do all of that when I feel like doing it, is to me being successful at dating.



I know people who got married and never really had that level of success in their dating lives they wanted. Specifically, I know one guy who never really learned to approach someone he really liked anywhere and go through a typical dating scenario. He would almost always be approached somehow, magically by the girls. He got approached by his would be wife one day, instead. And so they got married eventually. We're good friends, and we talked about it, he admitted that he was literally afraid of approaching women with the purpose of getting a date, and he was very uncomfortable about that fact. He also realized he might never learn that now that he was married and has children. Now, that's so painful to me, because he clearly isn't happy about his own situation, but he tries not to give it much thought. He doesn't need those skills much anymore now, so it kinda works for him.

That's not to say I'm claiming you and your wife don't know nothing about being successful in dating. However, you try to make it sound as if anyone who's married automatically is also experienced in dating. That's not always the case, so I felt it was needed to be pointed out.

You didn't actually answer it though. You said a lot of words, but you can't say "I think success in dating is x". if success in dating isn't finding someone that you can spend the rest of your life with, then really, what's the point? If you're just looking for conquests, that's a different thing, but you shouldn't really call it dating, because it's more like hunting. What would have to happen in your life to consider yourself a success at dating?

If you want to try and have conversations, especially online, I'd suggest figuring out a way to condense your thoughts. Most people aren't going to read everything you write, and even fewer will respond.

xCrucialDudex
05-07-2011, 01:49 AM
If it all varies person to person, then why have you said most what you've said in this thread? If attraction is in fact varied, then how can you pretend that there's some kind of rule book you can create on how to treat each individual situation? If you want someone that's independent, then why do you talk about women needed men?

I've said most of what I've said in this thread to give a piece of practical advice, explain my position and sustain the conversation.

Attraction, if viewed as a combination of genetic wiring and cultural conditioning, is both the same for everyone and varied to a certain degree. On genetic level it's very much the same for pretty much everyone, on cultural level there's a range of variations of things that trigger attraction for various people. Ultimately, if understood that attraction is basically the same for everyone, it is only a matter of dealing with cultural conditioning people have been exposed to.

There's no rule book per se, however there are certainly predictable responses to certain triggers that work consistently and systematically. The varied diversity of those triggers makes it look like a very challenging, unfathomable idea to be able to trigger attraction in any girl/guy you meet. It is indeed a very hard feat to pull off something like that consistently, on a regular basis. However, if you look at it as a martial art for example, it takes long years of practice to become really good at it. Well, same applies to dating skills. With a lot of practice and determination I'd say it is pretty much doable, and there's quite a bit of predictable things about dating to let someone talk about concrete guidelines and recommendations. Think about us, the humanity, and cosmos. We know very little about it, yet we explore it, we send spacecrafts that make tiny steps toward grand discoveries every day. Is there a rule book NASA, ESO and other scientists use for this? No, they just learn as they go, and in the process they also learn that a lot of things are predictable, consistent and certain rules can be thus made. So, they use them to make their life easier. In dating, it's very much the same.

By independent I meant largely financial independence, referring to the idea that a girl that's financially independent will seek not money in the guys she meets, rather their personality which is kinda important if you really think about it.

Women need men, as well as men do need women. There's a lot to gain from this for both sexes.


You didn't actually answer it though. You said a lot of words, but you can't say "I think success in dating is x". if success in dating isn't finding someone that you can spend the rest of your life with, then really, what's the point? If you're just looking for conquests, that's a different thing, but you shouldn't really call it dating, because it's more like hunting. What would have to happen in your life to consider yourself a success at dating?

If you want to try and have conversations, especially online, I'd suggest figuring out a way to condense your thoughts. Most people aren't going to read everything you write, and even fewer will respond.

First of all, I've answered your and other people's questions numerous times already, and I've done that quite excessively. I think you should stop demanding that people give you an answer that you want to see. Whatever happens is real, whatever you think should've happened is just a projection of yours. I've given the answer several times by now, and all you did was try to superimpose your personal idea of what it should've been instead of approaching it with open mind and genuinely trying to see a different perspective.

"Finding someone that you can spend the rest of your life with" as an idea of success in dating is just that, an idea. People have many different ideas about various things. I'd suggest that you think about where you got that idea from. How did you come to value this particular idea? Was it really your idea? Does everyone else appreciate the importance of this idea?

Just to drive it home, let's take a look at what Wikipedia has to say about dating:


Dating is a form of human courtship consisting of social activities done by two persons with the aim of each assessing the other's suitability as a partner in an intimate relationship or as a spouse. While the term has several senses, it usually refers to the act of meeting and engaging in some mutually agreed upon social activity in public, together, as a couple. The protocols and practices of dating, and the terms used to describe it, vary considerably from country to country. The most common sense is two people trying out a relationship and exploring whether they're compatible by going out together in public as a couple, and who may or may not yet be having sexual relations, and this period of courtship is sometimes seen as a precursor to engagement or marriage.

Firstly, it says OR as a spouse, some people, it seems, are looking for just intimate relationships which is such a broad notion that it encompasses really a lot of types of relationships. And it [dating] only sometimes seen as a precursor to engagement or marriage. Where does it say hunting or any other pejorative word? So, really just stop throwing words like that around. I understand that your ideas are of particular importance to you personally, but that doesn't mean you have an obligation or right to superimpose them on other people.

xsecx
05-07-2011, 07:29 AM
I've said most of what I've said in this thread to give a piece of practical advice, explain my position and sustain the conversation.

Attraction, if viewed as a combination of genetic wiring and cultural conditioning, is both the same for everyone and varied to a certain degree. On genetic level it's very much the same for pretty much everyone, on cultural level there's a range of variations of things that trigger attraction for various people. Ultimately, if understood that attraction is basically the same for everyone, it is only a matter of dealing with cultural conditioning people have been exposed to.

There's no rule book per se, however there are certainly predictable responses to certain triggers that work consistently and systematically. The varied diversity of those triggers makes it look like a very challenging, unfathomable idea to be able to trigger attraction in any girl/guy you meet. It is indeed a very hard feat to pull off something like that consistently, on a regular basis. However, if you look at it as a martial art for example, it takes long years of practice to become really good at it. Well, same applies to dating skills. With a lot of practice and determination I'd say it is pretty much doable, and there's quite a bit of predictable things about dating to let someone talk about concrete guidelines and recommendations. Think about us, the humanity, and cosmos. We know very little about it, yet we explore it, we send spacecrafts that make tiny steps toward grand discoveries every day. Is there a rule book NASA, ESO and other scientists use for this? No, they just learn as they go, and in the process they also learn that a lot of things are predictable, consistent and certain rules can be thus made. So, they use them to make their life easier. In dating, it's very much the same.

By independent I meant largely financial independence, referring to the idea that a girl that's financially independent will seek not money in the guys she meets, rather their personality which is kinda important if you really think about it.

Women need men, as well as men do need women. There's a lot to gain from this for both sexes.


People can't be different and all the same. You can't speak in specifics and generalities. If all women will respond to the same stimulus, like lab animals, then they will be attracted to the same things. If they are different then each would be taken as individuals and treated as such, rather than specimens in your "dating" experiments.

By the way, when everyone else says they want someone that's independent, they're not talking about money. most people view as capable of taking care of themselves, something you've repeated stated you don't believe women are capable of.



First of all, I've answered your and other people's questions numerous times already, and I've done that quite excessively. I think you should stop demanding that people give you an answer that you want to see. Whatever happens is real, whatever you think should've happened is just a projection of yours. I've given the answer several times by now, and all you did was try to superimpose your personal idea of what it should've been instead of approaching it with open mind and genuinely trying to see a different perspective.

You haven't though. You appear to lack the basic ability to give a short, concise answer to a basic question. Yes, you've responded to posts but haven't actually said much. You say things that are contradictory and clinical. You keep saying things like:
"Success in dating may seem like a very personal idea and may indeed vary from person to person greatly, however, it is significantly influenced by cultural indoctrination, and so on one hand it's culturally defined (as much as idea of love, etc.) and is very similar for most members of a given culture, on the other hand within a given culture one can see a certain range of variations of this idea. It is important to note that variations are being limited and suppressed by the predominant cultural values."

In what kind of conversation does that give anyone an idea of how you define success? What criteria did you list? you write words down, but in the end talk in a circle and don't actually say anything. That's not about my closed mind, it's about you being obtuse and not direct. Even above when you talk about attraction, you don't give specific examples, you talk about vague genetic wiring and cultural influence without giving any kind of specifics examples as to what you mean by that.




"Finding someone that you can spend the rest of your life with" as an idea of success in dating is just that, an idea. People have many different ideas about various things. I'd suggest that you think about where you got that idea from. How did you come to value this particular idea? Was it really your idea? Does everyone else appreciate the importance of this idea?

Just to drive it home, let's take a look at what Wikipedia has to say about dating:



Firstly, it says OR as a spouse, some people, it seems, are looking for just intimate relationships which is such a broad notion that it encompasses really a lot of types of relationships. And it [dating] only sometimes seen as a precursor to engagement or marriage. Where does it say hunting or any other pejorative word? So, really just stop throwing words like that around. I understand that your ideas are of particular importance to you personally, but that doesn't mean you have an obligation or right to superimpose them on other people.


it's an idea that's shared by most people, since marriage occurs for the vast majority of the population and would be even higher in homosexuals could as well worldwide. It's a pretty clear cut way to define success in dating, since most people are doing it ultimately to find someone they're compatible with to create a family with, since we're all genetically wired to reproduce and most people prefer to do that in a marriage.

However some people are predatory assholes and/or mentally ill. Based on what you've said here, you are more interested in your own experiments than the people are trying to date. if you have no intention of trying to have a long term relationship with someone, that's fine, but don't fool yourself that you're doing anything other than hunting. It's not a positive thing, and it's not a good thing. It's shallow and manipulative, especially if the first words out of your mouth to the other person aren't "I'm not looking for anything emotion". And then you enter into the world of just using people for sex, which also isn't really all that great either, but at least it's honest.

xCrucialDudex
05-07-2011, 12:02 PM
People can't be different and all the same. You can't speak in specifics and generalities. If all women will respond to the same stimulus, like lab animals, then they will be attracted to the same things. If they are different then each would be taken as individuals and treated as such, rather than specimens in your "dating" experiments.

Really? I think you can't actually talk about things in absolute terms. Granted, most women do respond to the same stimuli that elicit attraction (except for the odd genetically different makeup or any other kinds of inhibitions in a few individuals here and there). Why do you think it's any different from say emotions such as fear or pleasure? People feel happy because of or dread various things, yet they're capable of experiencing the very same emotion and the way they reach the resulting moods, structurally the process is pretty much the same regardless of all the different forms of the stimuli.


By the way, when everyone else says they want someone that's independent, they're not talking about money. most people view as capable of taking care of themselves, something you've repeated stated you don't believe women are capable of.

Again, I never made an absolute claim, I said "largely". That doesn't mean "only that". Generally speaking, when you think of someone as independent, given our economic reality that is at the very core of the fabric of what we call a civilization and modern society, doesn't it cross your mind ever? What other word would you use instead?



You haven't though. You appear to lack the basic ability to give a short, concise answer to a basic question. Yes, you've responded to posts but haven't actually said much. You say things that are contradictory and clinical. You keep saying things like:
"Success in dating may seem like a very personal idea and may indeed vary from person to person greatly, however, it is significantly influenced by cultural indoctrination, and so on one hand it's culturally defined (as much as idea of love, etc.) and is very similar for most members of a given culture, on the other hand within a given culture one can see a certain range of variations of this idea. It is important to note that variations are being limited and suppressed by the predominant cultural values."

In what kind of conversation does that give anyone an idea of how you define success? What criteria did you list? you write words down, but in the end talk in a circle and don't actually say anything. That's not about my closed mind, it's about you being obtuse and not direct. Even above when you talk about attraction, you don't give specific examples, you talk about vague genetic wiring and cultural influence without giving any kind of specifics examples as to what you mean by that.

Well, the problem is that you seek a concrete, specific thing to hear from me in reply. Like marriage, or sex friends, or open relationship, or monogamous long term relationship, etc. And you do it to the point where you just brush off the actual explanations you're given and try to demand the type of answer you want to see all while superimposing your personal ideas trying to claim that is the only valid perspective.

Dude, all of the above, I'm pretty much open to anything, considerably less to marriage right now, though. Yet, none of those directions in particular interest so much that I could stick with just one. I find that rather limiting. I also really answered this before, so I'll just copy-paste it for your consideration once again:


I see being able to easily go out and meet new people, connect with them relatively easy, and turn those connections into either long term relationships or something less serious without much trouble as being successful at dating.

Now, in my view there's no final frontier in this area, there will always be things to improve upon. Getting better at this is becoming more successful at dating to me. Because from there you could go into anything: long term, open, sex friends, marriage, whatever. It's just that I'm not seeking to stick with just one direction, I'm open to doing it all except the marriage.



it's an idea that's shared by most people, since marriage occurs for the vast majority of the population and would be even higher in homosexuals could as well worldwide. It's a pretty clear cut way to define success in dating, since most people are doing it ultimately to find someone they're compatible with to create a family with, since we're all genetically wired to reproduce and most people prefer to do that in a marriage.

Don't you think I'm pretty much aware of how radical and unusual my position may sound to most people, do you? Well, I couldn't care less what other people think about it and how I should follow the suit in this area of my life. It seems you view marriage as the end goal in dating. I don't. It's not always true or important for everyone. It's just an idea a lot of people happen to accept, much like an idea that recreational drug use is OK. My position on this is different, however, I think it enables and gives one more freedom to choose any direction more consciously. If someone decides to choose monogamous long term relationship or marriage, or open relationship, etc. that's cool. It's their life, it's for them to decide what to do with it. I see a huge problem, though, when people take a direction out of desperation or fear of failing. Like my friend, who basically got married because he felt dating was too complicated to deal with. Or people sticking with long term relationships every time they get a chance to do so, because they're afraid of rejection and being alone, and the hassle that comes with it. Look, I've talked to a bunch of different people and I know what I'm talking about. Most are just out of control in this area of their lives, they just give up the fight, often before it's even started, and try to get the best they can out of the situation. That sounds like a major failure to me. There's no end goal, in fact, there are no final frontiers regarding anything. I think people should really stop acting as there are. Will I ever get married? Maybe, I don't know. I think that could be a possibility. That is not an end goal in itself or of dating to me, though.


However some people are predatory assholes and/or mentally ill. Based on what you've said here, you are more interested in your own experiments than the people are trying to date. if you have no intention of trying to have a long term relationship with someone, that's fine, but don't fool yourself that you're doing anything other than hunting. It's not a positive thing, and it's not a good thing. It's shallow and manipulative, especially if the first words out of your mouth to the other person aren't "I'm not looking for anything emotion". And then you enter into the world of just using people for sex, which also isn't really all that great either, but at least it's honest.

Dude, it's not "hunting", it's about becoming better at this. I go through the relationship cycle just like any other people do, most of them end because people become different with time and lose it. If I see more than one girl at a time I let them know about it and if they're not comfortable with that nothing happens. Integrity and other people's mental health in all of this means a lot to me. I almost never develop relationship with someone if I see they don't understand what I really seek and may get hurt in the process. Sometimes I don't know what I want, I'm just a human being and may screw up here and there, but the point is that is not a conscious effort to manipulate someone. I'm strongly opposed to manipulation despite of you repeating over and over again that I somehow manipulate people.