french protests

[xsecx]

why are people so pissed at the raising of the retirement age from 60 to 62?

[Marion]

why are people so pissed at the raising of the retirement age from 60 to 62?

Cause they're dumb French people who take every single social improvement for granted.
They're fucking up the whole country. They prevent everyone else from doing their jobs (nearly no gaz left in the stations...awesome!). And the high school kids who think they know what they're talking about. They don't get that, if the reform passes now, they might have a chance at getting their own retirement around 65 maybe... but if we keep putting it off, there's gonna be money missing somewhere... so people my age are not gonna get any retirement. Ever. You can't live until 95 and being retired from 55 (which happens to many people because they work in so-called "special regims", meaning they do generally some jobs that are not physically tough or anything, and they just enjoy a super great retirement at an age when they're perfectly fine), it's just not the way it works.
The worst part is they don't realize how lucky they are and how lucky they'd still be for leaving at 62. Especially since they are some stuffs done for people who work very physically tough jobs, so they can leave early.
And the legal retirement age was 65, just in the 80s. Gosh this pisses me off.
Oh, and the assholes have just blocked my university, so no class. It's just awesome. They don't get that some people might actually want to work, study and stuffs...
Some say it's basically just an anti-government feeling, that they don't care that much for the reform but they just want to demonstrate and be on strike, because that's what dumb French people do.
I so feel like leaving France right now.
My friends and I are so ashamed of the image they give of our country.
The riots and demonstration seem nearly as bad as those which happened in Greece... except that we still have our jobs (well, even if 10% of people didn't feel like going to work...), we still have enough food to eat, we still live comfortably. Something's really wrong with the system.

[xsecx]

Cause they're dumb French people who take every single social improvement for granted.
They're fucking up the whole country. They prevent everyone else from doing their jobs (nearly no gaz left in the stations...awesome!). And the high school kids who think they know what they're talking about. They don't get that, if the reform passes now, they might have a chance at getting their own retirement around 65 maybe... but if we keep putting it off, there's gonna be money missing somewhere... so people my age are not gonna get any retirement. Ever. You can't live until 95 and being retired from 55 (which happens to many people because they work in so-called "special regims", meaning they do generally some jobs that are not physically tough or anything, and they just enjoy a super great retirement at an age when they're perfectly fine), it's just not the way it works.
The worst part is they don't realize how lucky they are and how lucky they'd still be for leaving at 62. Especially since they are some stuffs done for people who work very physically tough jobs, so they can leave early.
And the legal retirement age was 65, just in the 80s. Gosh this pisses me off.
Oh, and the assholes have just blocked my university, so no class. It's just awesome. They don't get that some people might actually want to work, study and stuffs...
Some say it's basically just an anti-government feeling, that they don't care that much for the reform but they just want to demonstrate and be on strike, because that's what dumb French people do.
I so feel like leaving France right now.
My friends and I are so ashamed of the image they give of our country.
The riots and demonstration seem nearly as bad as those which happened in Greece... except that we still have our jobs (well, even if 10% of people didn't feel like going to work...), we still have enough food to eat, we still live comfortably. Something's really wrong with the system.

ok cool, I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thought pretty much that. Here we have a similar fear. We have a huge population that's all getting ready to retire (at 65), and it's pretty likely that it's going to fuck everyone who came after them because there won't be enough workers that are left to pay for their pensions and social security. it's just weird to see people rioting over 2 years in retirement when it's still lower than other nations.

[xVeganAnarchistx]

Man, i hate always being this guy but....


Its not just the 2 years, its that throughout the western world the workers keep getting their wages and benefits cut, students keep getting rising tuition, farmers keep getting thrown off the land, and the wealth inequality keeps growing all the while we make the planet less and less hospitable for future generations. You don't get good pensions by doing what the rest of the world does, you get good pensions by seizing them from capital, and not giving up an inch (or 2 years) without a fight. If it wasn't so hard to get 2 years they'd be taking five or ten. And not everyone hates france. Many people in the left here look up to the french working classes willingness to go to the streets to get a little more from themselves and their comrades. Solidarity forever!

[xsecx]

Man, i hate always being this guy but....


Its not just the 2 years, its that throughout the western world the workers keep getting their wages and benefits cut, students keep getting rising tuition, farmers keep getting thrown off the land, and the wealth inequality keeps growing all the while we make the planet less and less hospitable for future generations. You don't get good pensions by doing what the rest of the world does, you get good pensions by seizing them from capital, and not giving up an inch (or 2 years) without a fight. If it wasn't so hard to get 2 years they'd be taking five or ten. And not everyone hates france. Many people in the left here look up to the french working classes willingness to go to the streets to get a little more from themselves and their comrades. Solidarity forever!

the current model isn't sustainable. the systems weren't built with the current life expectancy and population drop off, especially in the west. You either give some now, or lose everything later. The situation in france is actually pretty dire and if they don't do anything, they will become bankrupt.

[xVeganAnarchistx]

the current model isn't sustainable. the systems weren't built with the current life expectancy and population drop off, especially in the west. You either give some now, or lose everything later. The situation in france is actually pretty dire and if they don't do anything, they will become bankrupt.

You're right its not. Someone has to pay, i want it to be the upper class. And the french union movement (or the greek for that matter) seem to agree and that heartens me! I don't think we should consider giving anything back. We must demand everything and never be satisfied with what we get until capitalism falls. I mean, of course i'm an anarcho-communist, so i want capitalism to feel threatened, and i am happy to see it begging for the working classes to give up a little rather than us begging them for a little!

[xsecx]

You're right its not. Someone has to pay, i want it to be the upper class. And the french union movement (or the greek for that matter) seem to agree and that heartens me! I don't think we should consider giving anything back. We must demand everything and never be satisfied with what we get until capitalism falls. I mean, of course i'm an anarcho-communist, so i want capitalism to feel threatened, and i am happy to see it begging for the working classes to give up a little rather than us begging them for a little!

yeah, except that's not going to happen. the upper class isn't going to suddenly agree to complete wealth distribution. They're not going to give everything they have up so people can retire earlier and work less. At this point, the unions can agree, you can agree, but it doesn't change the situation. Unless you want to greatly decrease the human population, the concepts your talking about aren't sustainable. So faced with the situation now, it's either do something drastic or the entire nation risks going bankrupt.

[xVeganAnarchistx]

or we just take from the expropriators and give to those who need it. Build our society on the ashes of the old

[Marion]

so i want capitalism to feel threatened, and i am happy to see it begging for the working classes to give up a little rather than us begging them for a little!

Oh, you think it's the working class in the street? It's not.
There are also the unions for super-high level people in firms, there are plenty of teachers, people working for the administration, ...
Not that many working class people, not more than the percentage of them as a whole, I think.


So faced with the situation now, it's either do something drastic or the entire nation risks going bankrupt.

Exactly. The worst part is people are gonna make the country go bankrupt all by themselves... because of a reform approved by the people's delegates and launched by a president who was elected democratically (and who clearly said he was gonna reform a lot of things).
It's like we're being held hostage, which goes against my idea of freedom, and France's motto about "liberty".
The main problem is that you can't reform anything in France, everytime you try to improve society, there's a couple million of people in the streets. The college system in dying, so they made a reform 2 years ago... followed by like 1/3 of all universities being blocked (all year long, meaning everyone failed their exams) in order not to pass the reform. Which clearly means they don't care about the system, they just want to fuck everything up, everytime anyone tries to change something!

[Lifestyle_X]

Marion, you need to get out of there immediately and head for the US !!! Did kids even burn down a school ? When they riot in France, they riot good...

[xsecx]

or we just take from the expropriators and give to those who need it. Build our society on the ashes of the old

and by take, you mean by force?

[xVeganAnarchistx]

i guess i should be clearer, at least in the us, i consider teachers working class. Anyone who has no real control of their labor could probably be considered working class.

By Force if necessary sure. I mean the thing about france or greece is that their union are so powerful (if as marion says, they are filled with the same non-revolutionary bureaucratic classes american unions are) and still willing to do more than buy of politicians to keep the system favoring the workers rather than the exploiters. So maybe the system is so crippled that they'll give it up without a physical fight, thats awesome and better for us because if their is a war, we will certainly lose more than them, and i think even the most self-interested CEO could realize, if given the time, (do we have the liberty to devout that much time to them while millions suffer and die from shit like lack of health care or even starvation, good questions!) that a radical democratic society with decentralized power could be a world they would prefer too. But if it ends up being force, then its forces, its no different then the coercive shit they use against us all. If you think working in a sweatshop and eating or not and not is a real choice then you are kidding yourself. And when these sweatshop workers do organize like in Bangladesh they get thrown in jail by western corporations funded governments. So we need to fight in the West or those in even more severe dire straits will die all over the world.

[xsecx]

i guess i should be clearer, at least in the us, i consider teachers working class. Anyone who has no real control of their labor could probably be considered working class.

By Force if necessary sure. I mean the thing about france or greece is that their union are so powerful (if as marion says, they are filled with the same non-revolutionary bureaucratic classes american unions are) and still willing to do more than buy of politicians to keep the system favoring the workers rather than the exploiters. So maybe the system is so crippled that they'll give it up without a physical fight, thats awesome and better for us because if their is a war, we will certainly lose more than them, and i think even the most self-interested CEO could realize, if given the time, (do we have the liberty to devout that much time to them while millions suffer and die from shit like lack of health care or even starvation, good questions!) that a radical democratic society with decentralized power could be a world they would prefer too. But if it ends up being force, then its forces, its no different then the coercive shit they use against us all. If you think working in a sweatshop and eating or not and not is a real choice then you are kidding yourself. And when these sweatshop workers do organize like in Bangladesh they get thrown in jail by western corporations funded governments. So we need to fight in the West or those in even more severe dire straits will die all over the world.

this has always been my issue with this kind of mindset. You're saying this from a position of privilege. you talk about it, but you could actually be spending this time in places like Bangladesh helping to make a direct difference. You expect that you change to happen from the west, while you benefit from the system you're opposed to.

[Marion]

Marion, you need to get out of there immediately and head for the US !!! Did kids even burn down a school ? When they riot in France, they riot good...

Yes indeed, they burnt down a school. They also burn plenty of cars to ashes. They tipped over many others. They smash shops' windows. A girl got hurt pretty bad after the explosion of a scooter.
It's insane.

People won't move a finger to fight for, let's say, kids working in horrendous conditions in Asia, for children in Sierra Leone (whatever the name in English) who have their hands cut because of the diamond industry, they won't do anything against ugly bastards making huge profit on destroying the environment, they won't demonstrate for human rights, they won't go in the street for animal rights.... oh, but wait, sure, if you have them work in perfectly fine conditions (with at least 5weeks of vacation per year, with days off every time they or their kids are sick etc) for 2 more years (only for those still in good shape, of course), then hell yeah, they're destroying the country!
I hate people who don't realize how lucky they are.

[Lifestyle_X]

Why the fuck, every time some president in France decides to do something that not all of the people like, they need to burn cars, tip 'em over, smash in store-windows, .. it's almost like being in a snake pliskin movie. Don't they ever get tired of doing the same things over and over ?

[xCrucialDudex]

why are people so pissed at the raising of the retirement age from 60 to 62?

That's what I thought today when I heard about it on the radio. And I remembered Marion who'd told me just recently how French are in love with criticizing their government and never seem to be satisfied with whatever they have.

[Lifestyle_X]

And I remembered Marion who'd told me just recently how French are in love with criticizing their government and never seem to be satisfied with whatever they have.

And is Marion like this too ?!

[Marion]

And is Marion like this too ?!

He said I was because I'm criticizing the french who keeps criticizing. :)
But it's clearly not the same thing. I hate the "never-change-anyrhing-or-we'll-make-your-life-a-hell" mentality.

[Lifestyle_X]

You're a hater Marion, stop hatin' so much !

[Marion]

You're a hater Marion, stop hatin' so much !

I am so NOT a hater!
But I won't shut up and not tell what's on my mind only because it's seen as not correct to not be against the government. All we hear is the haters, they sound like they're a majority while they're clearly not! I will be heard, that's all.

[Lifestyle_X]

I thought almost everyone was rioting in France ?
I was just kidding about the hatin' part by the way.

[Marion]

I thought almost everyone was rioting in France ?
I was just kidding about the hatin' part by the way.

I thought you were.

It looks like everyone's rioting because it's the only thing showed on tv. But it's between 1 and 3 millions of people... in a country that counts 65 millions

[xVeganAnarchistx]

this has always been my issue with this kind of mindset. You're saying this from a position of privilege. you talk about it, but you could actually be spending this time in places like Bangladesh helping to make a direct difference. You expect that you change to happen from the west, while you benefit from the system you're opposed to.

in Bangladesh im just another one of millions who is fighting against those way more powerful than us. Here in american, i use my position as a student at university of Wisconsin to get out chancellor to cut contracts with companies like NIKE so nike has to be 1200 workers the 2.1 million they are owned in Honduras . Or so Russel has to hire back its workers and recognize the union. Right now the student labor action coalition is putting pressure on the demand side, from the university's apparel while the union organizers and communist parties put pressure on the bottom in Bangladesh. Check out United Students Against Sweathshops (USAS) what we do is really making a difference in the lives of the workers in the third world, and we do that by using our privilege, dropping out of school and going to throw more rocks at the police state in Bangladesh won't be as effective help as what im doing here.

[xsecx]

in Bangladesh im just another one of millions who is fighting against those way more powerful than us. Here in american, i use my position as a student at university of Wisconsin to get out chancellor to cut contracts with companies like NIKE so nike has to be 1200 workers the 2.1 million they are owned in Honduras . Or so Russel has to hire back its workers and recognize the union. Right now the student labor action coalition is putting pressure on the demand side, from the university's apparel while the union organizers and communist parties put pressure on the bottom in Bangladesh. Check out United Students Against Sweathshops (USAS) what we do is really making a difference in the lives of the workers in the third world, and we do that by using our privilege, dropping out of school and going to throw more rocks at the police state in Bangladesh won't be as effective help as what im doing here. That's a complete cop-out though. It's easy to talk about the lives and suffering of others from comfort and privilege. It's also a cop-out to pretend that the only way to help would be to throw rocks. There are NGO's out there making differences. If this is something that is important to you, why don't you give up your privilege and comfort to join one of them?

[xVeganAnarchistx]

That's a complete cop-out though. It's easy to talk about the lives and suffering of others from comfort and privilege. It's also a cop-out to pretend that the only way to help would be to throw rocks. There are NGO's out there making differences. If this is something that is important to you, why don't you give up your privilege and comfort to join one of them?

I'm saying, that as we have it, they would much rather value my forcing companies like Nike or walmart out of hundreds of thousands of dollars then giving food to the hungry, we need the institutional changes more than the charity stuff. Charity is important, don't get me wrong, but we need to change the system to actually affect any lasting change. As for the NGO's thing, that is a viable option but most value a college degree, and with my position as a student i have power to put pressure on corporations the only place that matters to them, their pocket book. But you don't have to be in an NGO or organizing unions in southeast asia to help change how the world is organized. Plus america is currently the powerbase in the world, so we have way more power if we derail this lumbering machine of destruction in her heart then if we flock to bhutan and talk smugly about how wrong the rest of the world is for valuing wealth over happiness or something. i dunno im rambling a little, but i just think that's such a shitty argument

[xsecx]

I'm saying, that as we have it, they would much rather value my forcing companies like Nike or walmart out of hundreds of thousands of dollars then giving food to the hungry, we need the institutional changes more than the charity stuff. Charity is important, don't get me wrong, but we need to change the system to actually affect any lasting change. As for the NGO's thing, that is a viable option but most value a college degree, and with my position as a student i have power to put pressure on corporations the only place that matters to them, their pocket book. But you don't have to be in an NGO or organizing unions in southeast asia to help change how the world is organized. Plus america is currently the powerbase in the world, so we have way more power if we derail this lumbering machine of destruction in her heart then if we flock to bhutan and talk smugly about how wrong the rest of the world is for valuing wealth over happiness or something. i dunno im rambling a little, but i just think that's such a shitty argument

I think it's convenient that you are going to try and argue that only from a place of privilege and comfort can you be any kind of agent for good. The whole statement of trying to take it down from the inside is pretty hollow. Are you seriously trying to argue that you as a student are really making that much of a difference as opposed to people actually on the ground? Calling the work of NGO's "charity" is completely insulting and disingenuous.

[xCrucialDudex]

I thought you were.

It looks like everyone's rioting because it's the only thing showed on tv. But it's between 1 and 3 millions of people... in a country that counts 65 millions

Ah the power of misrepresentation.

[xVeganAnarchistx]

I think it's convenient that you are going to try and argue that only from a place of privilege and comfort can you be any kind of agent for good. The whole statement of trying to take it down from the inside is pretty hollow. Are you seriously trying to argue that you as a student are really making that much of a difference as opposed to people actually on the ground? Calling the work of NGO's "charity" is completely insulting and disingenuous.

i thought that's the work you were getting at? By NGO's not doing the basic stuff like giving food and health care do you mean like NGO's organizing the unions or starting the communist parties for the workers or what? i guess i just don't see what good work a white guy who only speaks English can do in Bangladesh that will really bring the fundamental change. Now of course i'm not saying that the charity work is not important, it alleviates suffering right now, but we can't save the world with charity, at some point we need to destroy the systems that cause so much suffering, and create other systems that create much less suffering worlds. I don't think i can only be an agent of good from a place of privilege, but its just a fact that 30000 thousand americans means hell of a lot more than a couple million or dieing, dead, starving, or otherwise severely uncomfortable Bangladeshis or any other people to the United States government. Even more than 30000 general americans, 1000 thousand students pressuring a university to cut contracts with the most egregious sweatshop supporting companies creates even more of a pressure.

i mean don't get me wrong here, i think organizing the left wing parties in those countries, and fighting the authorities that keep you down are important, and really the keystone to the whole debate, but they have that down, they need our help in the 1st world more than they need some union organizer or rank in file man in Bangladesh.

i'm arguing that as a student i mean alot more than to institutions who can change the situation than i would as just another of the millions organizing for a battle world over there. If i helped change Bangladesh, maybe it goes the route of Bhutan, thats awesome! But if i change the US or England or France or something, thats unbelievably awesome. That's no more flooding of foreign markets with subsidized food stuffs that lead to starvation as farmers lose their purchasing power. That means that much less money devoted to military here or where they are scared of us. It means a much more important break down of the capitalist order. If i destroy capitalism's fundamental mission in a small country like Bhutan has done, thats awesome like i said, but if i do it here in the center of the mess, that's going to have reverberations all over the world.

[xsecx]

i thought that's the work you were getting at? By NGO's not doing the basic stuff like giving food and health care do you mean like NGO's organizing the unions or starting the communist parties for the workers or what? i guess i just don't see what good work a white guy who only speaks English can do in Bangladesh that will really bring the fundamental change. Now of course i'm not saying that the charity work is not important, it alleviates suffering right now, but we can't save the world with charity, at some point we need to destroy the systems that cause so much suffering, and create other systems that create much less suffering worlds. I don't think i can only be an agent of good from a place of privilege, but its just a fact that 30000 thousand americans means hell of a lot more than a couple million or dieing, dead, starving, or otherwise severely uncomfortable Bangladeshis or any other people to the United States government. Even more than 30000 general americans, 1000 thousand students pressuring a university to cut contracts with the most egregious sweatshop supporting companies creates even more of a pressure.


NGO's do an awful lot of things. they're not just charities. Some of it's charity work, some of it is lobbying work, some of it is political work. I think you'd be amazed at what you could do. Radicals that are going to talk about the evils of a system while taking full advantage of that system rather than sacrificing completely undermines your credibility in an argument about suffering when you yourself aren't willing to. In this scenario, all you're doing is taking money out of the corporation, you're not really doing anything to change the businesses behavior. Now, if you were to try and organize an alternative in that same country that paid a fair wage, safe conditions and a good product, that'd have much more of an impact than a boycott here in the states. Until and unless the conditions improve on the ground you won't see anything improve, and simply boycotting business who use sweatshop labor won't change that, especially not when you've got consumers here and elsewhere that are not willing or able to pay more for good than they already do.



i mean don't get me wrong here, i think organizing the left wing parties in those countries, and fighting the authorities that keep you down are important, and really the keystone to the whole debate, but they have that down, they need our help in the 1st world more than they need some union organizer or rank in file man in Bangladesh.

i'm arguing that as a student i mean alot more than to institutions who can change the situation than i would as just another of the millions organizing for a battle world over there. If i helped change Bangladesh, maybe it goes the route of Bhutan, thats awesome! But if i change the US or England or France or something, thats unbelievably awesome. That's no more flooding of foreign markets with subsidized food stuffs that lead to starvation as farmers lose their purchasing power. That means that much less money devoted to military here or where they are scared of us. It means a much more important break down of the capitalist order. If i destroy capitalism's fundamental mission in a small country like Bhutan has done, thats awesome like i said, but if i do it here in the center of the mess, that's going to have reverberations all over the world.

You don't find that completely convenient that you think the help you can give is the part that's the easiest and least risky to you? That you talk about destroying capitalism while reaping it's benefits directly isn't totally hypocritical? I'm not doubting the strength of your beliefs, but you have to admit that to someone on the outside it looks like armchair radicalism.

[xVeganAnarchistx]

NGO's do an awful lot of things. they're not just charities. Some of it's charity work, some of it is lobbying work, some of it is political work. I think you'd be amazed at what you could do. Radicals that are going to talk about the evils of a system while taking full advantage of that system rather than sacrificing completely undermines your credibility in an argument about suffering when you yourself aren't willing to. In this scenario, all you're doing is taking money out of the corporation, you're not really doing anything to change the businesses behavior. Now, if you were to try and organize an alternative in that same country that paid a fair wage, safe conditions and a good product, that'd have much more of an impact than a boycott here in the states. Until and unless the conditions improve on the ground you won't see anything improve, and simply boycotting business who use sweatshop labor won't change that, especially not when you've got consumers here and elsewhere that are not willing or able to pay more for good than they already do.

We are doing lobbying work here in the US were the corporations are headquartered (despite the tax haven shit being so rampant)

I thought i told you that we had successes in both those cases, and the current one is just ramping up. For Russel we got the 1200 workers their jobs back, the company recognized the union, and agreed in writing to accept unions if organized in any of their other factors.

In the Nike case we got the workers their 2.1 million in severance (about 2 years wages each) and worker training payed for by Nike, and a year (i believe, it might be more i'm not 100% here) extension on their health coverage. Oh yea, and that was the first time NIKE has ever sat down with a union in the developing world. That's the same company that was caught enslaving Indonesians only 10 years ago.

So in those two cases we did make an alternative, in one we got clear acceptance of worker unionization, and in the Nike case we made huge progress considering the fucking asshole we are dealing with in Phil Knight.


You don't find that completely convenient that you think the help you can give is the part that's the easiest and least risky to you? That you talk about destroying capitalism while reaping it's benefits directly isn't totally hypocritical? I'm not doubting the strength of your beliefs, but you have to admit that to someone on the outside it looks like armchair radicalism.

I find it convenient in that sense that its awesome for me, but i don't really see it as all that crazy. I live in the heart of the beast, might as well use that position the best i can. We always joke here that everyone hates us in the US. But it really is kinda true, and despite that, American foreign policy is just as reactionary as ever. You think it would be better for the left to flee America and let her become even more right wing? Your argument is coming from the same direction as the "You don't like America then move to China" argument, i understand you aren't going that far, but can't you admit that its way more effective to stop the machine here in the USA then any other single country in the world?

[xsecx]

We are doing lobbying work here in the US were the corporations are headquartered (despite the tax haven shit being so rampant)

I thought i told you that we had successes in both those cases, and the current one is just ramping up. For Russel we got the 1200 workers their jobs back, the company recognized the union, and agreed in writing to accept unions if organized in any of their other factors.

In the Nike case we got the workers their 2.1 million in severance (about 2 years wages each) and worker training payed for by Nike, and a year (i believe, it might be more i'm not 100% here) extension on their health coverage. Oh yea, and that was the first time NIKE has ever sat down with a union in the developing world. That's the same company that was caught enslaving Indonesians only 10 years ago.

So in those two cases we did make an alternative, in one we got clear acceptance of worker unionization, and in the Nike case we made huge progress considering the fucking asshole we are dealing with in Phil Knight.


And that's great but it doesn't really affect the entire population or even really address the root of the issue in those places. Sure, it's what you can do from here, but that's not really what I was talking about, or had an issue with.



I find it convenient in that sense that its awesome for me, but i don't really see it as all that crazy. I live in the heart of the beast, might as well use that position the best i can. We always joke here that everyone hates us in the US. But it really is kinda true, and despite that, American foreign policy is just as reactionary as ever. You think it would be better for the left to flee America and let her become even more right wing? Your argument is coming from the same direction as the "You don't like America then move to China" argument, i understand you aren't going that far, but can't you admit that its way more effective to stop the machine here in the USA then any other single country in the world?

it's not crazy, it's just lazy. It's the way of the half ass. I think that until and unless you remove yourself from privilege, talking about the evils of it is hollow and for the most part undermines any real credibility you may have.

[xVeganAnarchistx]

And that's great but it doesn't really affect the entire population or even really address the root of the issue in those places. Sure, it's what you can do from here, but that's not really what I was talking about, or had an issue with.

See i disagree, i think the rise of a union factories definitely changes the dynamic.
1)You gain class consciousness so you form a union, the company shuts the factory and you are SOL, you probably won't go on to form unions.

2) You gain class consciousness so you form a union, the company shuts the factory. Then you get some assistance from people in the country where the products of your labor are sold, after a year of struggle you get you job back with union recognition, and have a precedent set. Other factories around you here your story and more and more people consider trying it themselves. That's an awesome change.

Now, I'm no marxist, but if we look at history, union movements grew up from nothing, and eventually changed the systems of how a country is run. Right now it looks like it only helps the communities where the unionized factories operate, but it could spread, in some countries it wasn't as great because of an effective red scare, (like the us) but in others like the Scandinavian peninsula or even france we see how a powerful union movement can really take control of a nation and create much more just distributive systems. Now obviously, if we look around, alot of these countries are either having trouble sustaining their standards of living and facing backlash from the public there and abroad (LIKE FRANCE!) or have already began moving to more unequal distributive systems (like some of the peninsular countries) but either way, we can see them as a hell of a lot better off than places where no strong left union movement has taken off and continued into the present. It is probably to far to tell where a country like Bangladesh is going, but they do tend to have wider support for left wing parties and ideas, though sadly they are often of the statist variety.


it's not crazy, it's just lazy. It's the way of the half ass. I think that until and unless you remove yourself from privilege, talking about the evils of it is hollow and for the most part undermines any real credibility you may have.

again, i just really disagree, i think a college degree gives me alot more crediablity with the people who have the real power. I could read everything from rousseau to audre lorde but it doesn't mean shit to some bleeding heart. A piece of cardboard with my name on it is really helpful in this country and you and i both know it. It might seem hypocritical, but that fact is we value the conditions you were born into way more than any merit the ideas you stand behind have. If it wasn't for radicals in the first world they'd just be rounding up and killing union orginizers like they did not so long ago. In my mind the single most devastating force in latin america in the last 50 years was the CIA war against the left. That war is very much more difficult to wage now, and its thanks not to a billion poor non-americans (cause we don't care about them) but to the millions within the United States who found out about and were disgusted by it.

One last thing, Look how divestiture and boycotts worked against south africa. Should minor threat and the DC punks played their shows in the South African ghettos or pressure the country with the most power aside outside of the Afrikaans controlled south african government. I mean, in this case its even more in favor of your opinion since their was an obvious target easily reached, fighting the Multinational Corporation takes much more.

[xsecx]

See i disagree, i think the rise of a union factories definitely changes the dynamic.
1)You gain class consciousness so you form a union, the company shuts the factory and you are SOL, you probably won't go on to form unions.

2) You gain class consciousness so you form a union, the company shuts the factory. Then you get some assistance from people in the country where the products of your labor are sold, after a year of struggle you get you job back with union recognition, and have a precedent set. Other factories around you here your story and more and more people consider trying it themselves. That's an awesome change.

Now, I'm no marxist, but if we look at history, union movements grew up from nothing, and eventually changed the systems of how a country is run. Right now it looks like it only helps the communities where the unionized factories operate, but it could spread, in some countries it wasn't as great because of an effective red scare, (like the us) but in others like the Scandinavian peninsula or even france we see how a powerful union movement can really take control of a nation and create much more just distributive systems. Now obviously, if we look around, alot of these countries are either having trouble sustaining their standards of living and facing backlash from the public there and abroad (LIKE FRANCE!) or have already began moving to more unequal distributive systems (like some of the peninsular countries) but either way, we can see them as a hell of a lot better off than places where no strong left union movement has taken off and continued into the present. It is probably to far to tell where a country like Bangladesh is going, but they do tend to have wider support for left wing parties and ideas, though sadly they are often of the statist variety.



You're talking like factories and sweatshops are the only problems and that labor and commerce are the only things that will fix the problems they have. It's short-sighted. Unionized factories won't fix everything. They won't even fix most things. The poverty of a nation isn't going to be fixed by unions. It's not going to be fixed by factories. I find it interesting that you're against capitalism and ownership but you present that the solution to the worlds problems is commerce and the consumption of goods. It's not going to be fixed until and unless they're able to own, create and maintain systems, ideas and production. You address this by fixing underlying health issues, farming/food production issues, and education. And all of that is far better served by being on the ground and doing things far more than being halfway around the world organizing boycotts.

I mean, let's look at a place like france. Let's look at what is being accomplished by their almost never ending protests. They have a social system that cannot be maintained. They
are on the brink of bankruptcy due to too much social spending. They've decreased the actual amount of production so most jobs are service oriented and not production based which can easily be shifted internally. As time goes on, labor unions before less and less relevant in the west and end up being viewed far more as a problem than as a solution.




again, i just really disagree, i think a college degree gives me alot more crediablity with the people who have the real power. I could read everything from rousseau to audre lorde but it doesn't mean shit to some bleeding heart. A piece of cardboard with my name on it is really helpful in this country and you and i both know it. It might seem hypocritical, but that fact is we value the conditions you were born into way more than any merit the ideas you stand behind have. If it wasn't for radicals in the first world they'd just be rounding up and killing union orginizers like they did not so long ago. In my mind the single most devastating force in latin america in the last 50 years was the CIA war against the left. That war is very much more difficult to wage now, and its thanks not to a billion poor non-americans (cause we don't care about them) but to the millions within the United States who found out about and were disgusted by it.


but you're going to disagree, you have no real desire to give up your first world privileges.
like I doubt everything around you is communal. I doubt you don't lock your bike. I doubt that every day you don't directly benefit from the system you clearly have a problem with. you of course have the choice to try and go somewhere else, but that's hard. staying where you're at, reaping all of the benefits of capitalism while decrying it's

Also, not so long ago? you're talking about shit from the 50s, 60s, 70s and at the latest 80s. This shit hasn't happened in the last 20 years. What have radicals really done in the last 20 years?




One last thing, Look how divestiture and boycotts worked against south africa. Should minor threat and the DC punks played their shows in the South African ghettos or pressure the country with the most power aside outside of the Afrikaans controlled south african government. I mean, in this case its even more in favor of your opinion since their was an obvious target easily reached, fighting the Multinational Corporation takes much more.

Are you really trying to make the argument that minor threat and the dc punks had anything to do with changes in south africa? and even if they are, are you going to try and say that the organization and work done locally within south africa mattered less than what people were doing on the outside?

[xVeganAnarchistx]

You're talking like factories and sweatshops are the only problems and that labor and commerce are the only things that will fix the problems they have. It's short-sighted. Unionized factories won't fix everything. They won't even fix most things. The poverty of a nation isn't going to be fixed by unions. It's not going to be fixed by factories. I find it interesting that you're against capitalism and ownership but you present that the solution to the worlds problems is commerce and the consumption of goods. It's not going to be fixed until and unless they're able to own, create and maintain systems, ideas and production. You address this by fixing underlying health issues, farming/food production issues, and education. And all of that is far better served by being on the ground and doing things far more than being halfway around the world organizing boycotts.

I mean, let's look at a place like france. Let's look at what is being accomplished by their almost never ending protests. They have a social system that cannot be maintained. They
are on the brink of bankruptcy due to too much social spending. They've decreased the actual amount of production so most jobs are service oriented and not production based which can easily be shifted internally. As time goes on, labor unions before less and less relevant in the west and end up being viewed far more as a problem than as a solution.

Let me be clear, if i thought we had the power, i'd just say alright folks lets create our world. But we don't. In fact, we are in such dire straits many of us are startving, Thats why i support things like boycotts and more compassionate consumption. cause that's the only option we have while we are not powerful enough to seize the means of production. For now our most important fight is convincing people a better world is possible, and from there i think we can sort the rest out.

Unionized factories and industries give more wealth to the lower classes, they get to keep more of the product of their labor than in any non unionized factory creating the same shit. It's not like their is a shortage of wealth in the world, there is just vast inequality. You can't fix educate people or give them a good healthcare system if they can't find a way to make a living.

France as a higher average standard of living then a country like the US. They spend more than america on education per capita and they have a longer life expectancy, partly due to a stronger health care system for the whole, and partly due to not being bought and sold by health food companies. And they still make about 20% less per capita than americans. That means, even with less wealth, they get more. And that is because of strong union movement. raising the retirement age 2 year to 62 causes general strikes, here, if the government said its time to raise the retirement age to 70 we'd grumble a bit and then resign ourselves to it. Thats why we spend nearly half our accessible budget on buildings haliburton's new fighter jet while kids die of lack of medicine in our cities.

Finally, i don't see france as an end, far from it, and though they have an active labor movement, they also have some racism in many of their unions (like here) and they are often very conservative unions, bread and butter, not much more types as i think marion may have alluded to a couple posts back. But its better to have a conservative union the no union while living under capitalism. And if instead of focusing on one of the less successful social democracy we looked at norway or sweden or finland or even denmark we'd see even better results.

On the outsourcing of productive labor to the third world, yea, i know and that's why we need to support union struggles in the third world, like Bangladesh, especially with our power in the first world, cause over there, union members still get put in jail or to death. Having the 1st world activists looking over their shoulders is the reason why most of the jailed union activists where freed rather than found to have "committed suicide" in their cells.



but you're going to disagree, you have no real desire to give up your first world privileges.
like I doubt everything around you is communal. I doubt you don't lock your bike. I doubt that every day you don't directly benefit from the system you clearly have a problem with. you of course have the choice to try and go somewhere else, but that's hard. staying where you're at, reaping all of the benefits of capitalism while decrying it's

Also, not so long ago? you're talking about shit from the 50s, 60s, 70s and at the latest 80s. This shit hasn't happened in the last 20 years. What have radicals really done in the last 20 years?


Of course not, i don't want to bring everyone down to the third world level, i want to bring everyone up to the first, and i think we can do that if we give up a little and work together a little more. I mean we can all think of 10 egregiously wasteful things that could change to make it much easier for us all to live comfortably.

I don't recall saying everything around me is communal, i live in the usa. I'm lucky to have found a housing coop and to have grocery coops here and a bakery plus a few coffeehouses. But i don't have much else run collectively and that's cause we are not done. But it sure beats having a walmart and some nameless corporation renting out my house to me. I try to live as openly as i can, but we live in a world dominated by patriarchy racism and capitalism. So of course i got it easier than alot of other people as a white male from the upper middle class. So i use my position the best i see fit, i'm getting a college education, and i'll go into the school system and help others to learn and believe in themselves and before you know we won't be paying farmers not to grow crops, and we won't subsidize our wheat and corn and flood third world markets, we won't even ship our dirtiest industries over seas. I why wouldn't i lock my bike, it's clear that most people aren't quite radicals like me. But i share my stuff bike or car or kitchen with my friends, and theres, and the local food not bombs. You can't really blame me for not having overthrown capitalism and the government yet, most people in the US don't want that. So talking about alternatives, having debates, and trying to exhibit how to better spend our money within capitalism (western made or union made good. Local stores and vegan foods, housing coops, or at least collectively running our non-owned houses) these can show people a taste of the future, and it might take a while, but mail bombs and suicide attacks just aren't really all that convincing are they anyway?

And listen to me a second, If i was a dropout teenager arguing with you at the local bar, wreaking cause i haven't showered in the last couple days, would you, as a person with the power to make a change that could help people other than just yourself, be more likely to take me seriously, or if i was a college educated teacher, or engineer, or whatever else, talking to you at the local farmers market, or grocery store or presentation at your church? Obviously you wouldn't take me seriously if i stopped reaping the benefits of capitalism (like my college education) and instead dropped out to try to spread the revolution here, or moved to Pakistan and asked for you 20 bucks a months to absolve your conscious for the horrors going on in your name. And would you please admit that changing America is FAR more important than changing anywhere else in the world. What country becoming significantly more progressive would have the most difference on the world, it's obviously not Bangladesh.


Are you really trying to make the argument that minor threat and the dc punks had anything to do with changes in south africa? and even if they are, are you going to try and say that the organization and work done locally within south africa mattered less than what people were doing on the outside?

I'm trying to say that if no country cared what the fuck happened in south africa that south africans would still be living in a police state, or their would have been a serious bloodbath. Either of which noone wants. Without outside pressure in the form of sanctions and divestment (by schools among others) shit would be alot worse than it is. You need both masses inside a country and outside pressure. Their are plenty of countries with the masses inside but not the outside pressure, such as Bangladesh, or even palastine

[xsecx]

Let me be clear, if i thought we had the power, i'd just say alright folks lets create our world. But we don't. In fact, we are in such dire straits many of us are startving, Thats why i support things like boycotts and more compassionate consumption. cause that's the only option we have while we are not powerful enough to seize the means of production. For now our most important fight is convincing people a better world is possible, and from there i think we can sort the rest out.

Unionized factories and industries give more wealth to the lower classes, they get to keep more of the product of their labor than in any non unionized factory creating the same shit. It's not like their is a shortage of wealth in the world, there is just vast inequality. You can't fix educate people or give them a good healthcare system if they can't find a way to make a living.


It's what you can do from here without much personal suffering or effort. It's not our only option, it's just the easiest.

You make it sound like the only option is unionized factories. That the only option is to create more low skilled, low paid production jobs. This is a short sighted and narrow mindset. You can't fix problems with unions. You can't fix problems from the other side of the world. You fix them by educating the population. You fix them by encouraging governments to put in place and regulate job conditions. You fix them by having ethical people create and run businesses. This isn't the 1900s. There are solutions that don't involve unions or factories.



France as a higher average standard of living then a country like the US. They spend more than america on education per capita and they have a longer life expectancy, partly due to a stronger health care system for the whole, and partly due to not being bought and sold by health food companies. And they still make about 20% less per capita than americans. That means, even with less wealth, they get more. And that is because of strong union movement. raising the retirement age 2 year to 62 causes general strikes, here, if the government said its time to raise the retirement age to 70 we'd grumble a bit and then resign ourselves to it. Thats why we spend nearly half our accessible budget on buildings haliburton's new fighter jet while kids die of lack of medicine in our cities.

They also have a government on the brink of bankruptcy because of the programs that have been put in place. That's no a model that anyone should be using as an example of anything other than what shouldn't be done.




Of course not, i don't want to bring everyone down to the third world level, i want to bring everyone up to the first, and i think we can do that if we give up a little and work together a little more. I mean we can all think of 10 egregiously wasteful things that could change to make it much easier for us all to live comfortably.


I don't recall saying everything around me is communal, i live in the usa. I'm lucky to have found a housing coop and to have grocery coops here and a bakery plus a few coffeehouses. But i don't have much else run collectively and that's cause we are not done. But it sure beats having a walmart and some nameless corporation renting out my house to me. I try to live as openly as i can, but we live in a world dominated by patriarchy racism and capitalism. So of course i got it easier than alot of other people as a white male from the upper middle class. So i use my position the best i see fit, i'm getting a college education, and i'll go into the school system and help others to learn and believe in themselves and before you know we won't be paying farmers not to grow crops, and we won't subsidize our wheat and corn and flood third world markets, we won't even ship our dirtiest industries over seas. I why wouldn't i lock my bike, it's clear that most people aren't quite radicals like me. But i share my stuff bike or car or kitchen with my friends, and theres, and the local food not bombs. You can't really blame me for not having overthrown capitalism and the government yet, most people in the US don't want that. So talking about alternatives, having debates, and trying to exhibit how to better spend our money within capitalism (western made or union made good. Local stores and vegan foods, housing coops, or at least collectively running our non-owned houses) these can show people a taste of the future, and it might take a while, but mail bombs and suicide attacks just aren't really all that convincing are they anyway?


You pick and choose how you use your privilege. You get to be a radical without really trying or causing yourself any kind of discomfort. So you plan on being a teacher? How exactly are you going to take down capitalism while taking part in it? It just seems completely hollow to me that you're going to criticize the capitalistic system, when you have no real intention of living outside of it. If you honestly believe that the owning of property is wrong, then why would you lock up your bike? Why wouldn't you live completely communally?



And listen to me a second, If i was a dropout teenager arguing with you at the local bar, wreaking cause i haven't showered in the last couple days, would you, as a person with the power to make a change that could help people other than just yourself, be more likely to take me seriously, or if i was a college educated teacher, or engineer, or whatever else, talking to you at the local farmers market, or grocery store or presentation at your church? Obviously you wouldn't take me seriously if i stopped reaping the benefits of capitalism (like my college education) and instead dropped out to try to spread the revolution here, or moved to Pakistan and asked for you 20 bucks a months to absolve your conscious for the horrors going on in your name. And would you please admit that changing America is FAR more important than changing anywhere else in the world. What country becoming significantly more progressive would have the most difference on the world, it's obviously not Bangladesh.

If you were someone who actually went and joined an NGO and did work to improve conditions somewhere else, you'd have the credibility to talk about the situation. I don't take academics seriously now anyway, so until you actually get on the ground it's all the same amount of hot air as crust punk with doom patches.

And no, I'd say changing China and India is far more important that changing anywhere else. They're both emerging economies and far more likely to be changed than anything you can do here by boycotts. The consumption of goods isn't going go away. You make a bigger difference getting on the ground and working directly to make the situation better. If you educate the population, give them a trade, you make people work with the local governments to make changes and hold them accountable to improve conditions and deal with corruption. You don't do it by protesting half a world away.




I'm trying to say that if no country cared what the fuck happened in south africa that south africans would still be living in a police state, or their would have been a serious bloodbath. Either of which noone wants. Without outside pressure in the form of sanctions and divestment (by schools among others) shit would be alot worse than it is. You need both masses inside a country and outside pressure. Their are plenty of countries with the masses inside but not the outside pressure, such as Bangladesh, or even palastine

Yeah, because clearly the people of the world aren't capable of changing their own situation, they need wealthy kids from privileged existences to do it for them. You do realize that there were serious bloodbaths in south africa right? That there were massive riots and protests. Outside economic pressure helped but honestly that country was on the brink of civil war if something wasn't done. If nothing was done on the inside, they'd still be living in apartied. If it was just kids in college protesting, mandela would still be in jail.

[xVeganAnarchistx]

Dude, this one is over. Sorry. I think the best way to change the world is to change the power with the most power to do anything. I think supporting the masses with my position in the united states (using the privilege i was born into) isas helpful, and equally important, i mean considering how if we think a government is to radical we just have the CIA overthrow it.

you think the best way is to withdraw into communes and not like up your bike. Off course i'm being facetious but for real. If i was fighting rape would you say i should just go live in a commune and not rape people? or should i try to change the culture that makes rape so prominent?

[xsecx]

Dude, this one is over. Sorry. I think the best way to change the world is to change the power with the most power to do anything. I think supporting the masses with my position in the united states (using the privilege i was born into) isas helpful, and equally important, i mean considering how if we think a government is to radical we just have the CIA overthrow it.

you think the best way is to withdraw into communes and not like up your bike. Off course i'm being facetious but for real. If i was fighting rape would you say i should just go live in a commune and not rape people? or should i try to change the culture that makes rape so prominent?
No, I think the best way is to get out of your comfort zone and directly do something. I find it interesting that you think direct action is a needed thing for animal rights, but don't want to try and do it for people. If everyone thought like you did, then there wouldn't be anyone on the ground doing anything. It very much is the easy way out. Also, you seriously need to stop thinking it's the 1950's and 60's. The CIA doesn't overthrow shit anymore. It doesn't need to. Whether you want to accept it or not, the world actually has changed over the last century.

If you were fighting rape, are you really going to try and tell me that sitting halfway around the world you're going to make more of a difference than dealing with the problem directly where it's happening? Trying to blame the US makes it easy for you to feel like you're making the difference without really trying. China is the second largest economy on earth and they have the growing middle class. You want to try and make a difference with consumers, you start there. There you'd be able to make a real difference.

[xVeganAnarchistx]

No, I think the best way is to get out of your comfort zone and directly do something. I find it interesting that you think direct action is a needed thing for animal rights, but don't want to try and do it for people. If everyone thought like you did, then there wouldn't be anyone on the ground doing anything. It very much is the easy way out. Also, you seriously need to stop thinking it's the 1950's and 60's. The CIA doesn't overthrow shit anymore. It doesn't need to. Whether you want to accept it or not, the world actually has changed over the last century.

If you were fighting rape, are you really going to try and tell me that sitting halfway around the world you're going to make more of a difference than dealing with the problem directly where it's happening? Trying to blame the US makes it easy for you to feel like you're making the difference without really trying. China is the second largest economy on earth and they have the growing middle class. You want to try and make a difference with consumers, you start there. There you'd be able to make a real difference.

First, that rape thing was stupid, i was mad and i'm sorry. i still disagree with you and i don't think we'll get anywhere and i'll leave it at that.

[xVinceWHCx]

Sorry for being late in this topic and talk about it when it's almost finish ahahaha

Just to say one thing (or maybe more :s)

In France it's time to change EVERYTHING ! we need a new regime no right no left no extrem right or left , people here are used to get everything for nothing (when it's not free)

We are never happy and we won't , 'cause this is how France works !

Like Marion said, more than 50% of the people who are in the streets have nothing to deal with this reform ! Most of them are already protected (I mean, it's special regim like the SNCF for instance who can leave before 60)

Students are stupids it's a political thing : the ones who block schools are students who don't care and you know why ? because they have the money for pay the school ! don't think we have school for free OH NO so have (like me) but not because we want , because our parents can't pay it which mean we receive help from the governement for pay school and transports (sometimes we can also pay our food and our rooms with it) , and when I say the ones who block schools can pay their school I know what I say when two years ago the university (Lille 3) where I was were blocked by pseudo revolutionar kids who didn't knew why they are doing that and who can pay their year !

Some others kids are just stupid and yeah they burn and destroy everything (sometimes cops are in , but they are cops so it's for the good cause see what I mean !)

The political regime here sucks, French suck, the only thing I like in my country is my country itself not the people who live in it !

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK