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funwithpinetrees
11-09-2009, 06:44 PM
Here is something I want to say in general, and since this is the commentary section, I feel like doing it.

I just am beginning to realize that I don't like it when other people tell me what i believe. for example if I believe in evolution I can't be in a Christian; if I am a christian then I am a conservative; if i am a conservative then I don't care about the environment, if I am an environmentalist then I care about plastic bottles, and things in a similar manner to that but not specifically that. It does not even have to be a chain at all, it just was a chain right there. It can be like Oh you are a Catholic that means you aren't pro choice. People on both sides of the issue can say that, and I will just be like, no I am a catholic, i'm pro choice, that is my belief you can't tell me that these are mutually exclusive because I am the thing that makes them not. frequently it is about religion, because you know that is why religion is so weird.

So many of these things don't have to do anything with each other. And i always thought i was wrong. But now I realize that the person labeling trying to tell me that if I am a something then I am a something else is incorrect about me. They don't have any weight in terms of how I view myself because I know what I believe and maybe it is a failure in logic or maybe it is not something i will continue to believe, but I just feel things.

Maybe this is something so obvious to everyone else that it is not worth discussing further, but sometimes I think things but I forget them. writing it down helps, and i was going to write it down I might as well share it with some people, you know?

xsecx
11-09-2009, 06:56 PM
Here is something I want to say in general, and since this is the commentary section, I feel like doing it.

I just am beginning to realize that I don't like it when other people tell me what i believe. for example if I believe in evolution I can't be in a Christian; if I am a christian then I am a conservative; if i am a conservative then I don't care about the environment, if I am an environmentalist then I care about plastic bottles, and things in a similar manner to that but not specifically that. It does not even have to be a chain at all, it just was a chain right there. It can be like Oh you are a Catholic that means you aren't pro choice. People on both sides of the issue can say that, and I will just be like, no I am a catholic, i'm pro choice, that is my belief you can't tell me that these are mutually exclusive because I am the thing that makes them not. frequently it is about religion, because you know that is why religion is so weird.

So many of these things don't have to do anything with each other. And i always thought i was wrong. But now I realize that the person labeling trying to tell me that if I am a something then I am a something else is incorrect about me. They don't have any weight in terms of how I view myself because I know what I believe and maybe it is a failure in logic or maybe it is not something i will continue to believe, but I just feel things.

Maybe this is something so obvious to everyone else that it is not worth discussing further, but sometimes I think things but I forget them. writing it down helps, and i was going to write it down I might as well share it with some people, you know?

things like religion have built in beliefs that if you disagree, then you aren't really following it. People tend to hold onto past beliefs and try to reconcile then with what they think now. Like for instance being christian and believing in evolution. These are conflicting beliefs but rather than accepting that the foundation of belief is wrong, people lie to themselves about and try and come up with reasons why they're not contradictory. But with things like religion you don't really have a choice about what you get to believe and what you don't. It's not so much about the individual but what the religion tells you.

lo0m
11-10-2009, 01:05 AM
Here is something I want to say in general, and since this is the commentary section, I feel like doing it.

I just am beginning to realize that I don't like it when other people tell me what i believe. for example if I believe in evolution I can't be in a Christian; if I am a christian then I am a conservative; if i am a conservative then I don't care about the environment, if I am an environmentalist then I care about plastic bottles, and things in a similar manner to that but not specifically that. It does not even have to be a chain at all, it just was a chain right there. It can be like Oh you are a Catholic that means you aren't pro choice. People on both sides of the issue can say that, and I will just be like, no I am a catholic, i'm pro choice, that is my belief you can't tell me that these are mutually exclusive because I am the thing that makes them not. frequently it is about religion, because you know that is why religion is so weird.

So many of these things don't have to do anything with each other. And i always thought i was wrong. But now I realize that the person labeling trying to tell me that if I am a something then I am a something else is incorrect about me. They don't have any weight in terms of how I view myself because I know what I believe and maybe it is a failure in logic or maybe it is not something i will continue to believe, but I just feel things.

Maybe this is something so obvious to everyone else that it is not worth discussing further, but sometimes I think things but I forget them. writing it down helps, and i was going to write it down I might as well share it with some people, you know?

agreed! it's about you and your worldview. you can perfectly be a catholic and believe in evolution. and when someone says you can't be, they're just projecting their thoughts on you. their dogmas and their close-mindness. one day god may come and say "who the hell wrote the bible? i didn't.." or there may be nothing else except your dreams .. we all just play we know something about this world and we propably know just a tiny little bit of what surrounds us. who knows? there was, is , and will be a big portion of mystery in this world and billions of different views on it. billions of different ways to live a life. so many religions are trying to solve this. and yes, modern science is a religion too.
people tend to forget that it's variability and our differences that keeps us unique.

xsecx
11-10-2009, 08:27 AM
agreed! it's about you and your worldview. you can perfectly be a catholic and believe in evolution. and when someone says you can't be, they're just projecting their thoughts on you. their dogmas and their close-mindness. one day god may come and say "who the hell wrote the bible? i didn't.." or there may be nothing else except your dreams .. we all just play we know something about this world and we propably know just a tiny little bit of what surrounds us. who knows? there was, is , and will be a big portion of mystery in this world and billions of different views on it. billions of different ways to live a life. so many religions are trying to solve this. and yes, modern science is a religion too.
people tend to forget that it's variability and our differences that keeps us unique.

so you can be vegan and eat meat? anti-racist, but hate a specific race?

CarlaRant
11-10-2009, 12:30 PM
Aw hell....I know where this is going, but I want to throw in my experience--

I live in a high-Mormon population. People look at me and think, "Hey, she married young, doesn't drink, smoke, or consume caffeine...she must be a Latter Day Saint (LDS)" I hate that. And the pro-life/pro-choice thing....oh, and I'm Irish, so therefore I must be Catholic. I'm a teacher, so therefore I must know every book ever written and how to spell every word in the dictionary and don't mind being asked at random. Ass-u-me nothing!

lo0m
11-11-2009, 02:11 AM
so you can be vegan and eat meat? anti-racist, but hate a specific race?

word vegan MEANS not eating meat (i.a.), anti-racist MEANS you're not hating other races.. on the other hand vegans can be both pro-ALF and anti-ALF.. they can eat cooked food or they don't. being a christian MEANS you're not agnostic, but it doesn't mean you have to drink wine :-) i've expected something smarter from you..

xsecx
11-11-2009, 05:29 AM
word vegan MEANS not eating meat (i.a.), anti-racist MEANS you're not hating other races.. on the other hand vegans can be both pro-ALF and anti-ALF.. they can eat cooked food or they don't. being a christian MEANS you're not agnostic, but it doesn't mean you have to drink wine :-) i've expected something smarter from you..

being christian means a lot more than just you're not agnostic. In each example there are fundamental beliefs that you necessary for someone to be a believer/follower/etc. You've also missed the point. I can call myself vegan ever though I eat meat, I think that using animals as test subjects for consumer goods is wrong. I just picked the one part that I agreed with and just ignored the other parts. You're just projecting your dogma and closed mindedness by telling me that the word means not eating meat.

lo0m
11-11-2009, 06:41 AM
being christian means a lot more than just you're not agnostic. In each example there are fundamental beliefs that you necessary for someone to be a believer/follower/etc. You've also missed the point. I can call myself vegan ever though I eat meat, I think that using animals as test subjects for consumer goods is wrong. I just picked the one part that I agreed with and just ignored the other parts. You're just projecting your dogma and closed mindedness by telling me that the word means not eating meat.

the sounds and clusters of shapes that we use as spoken or written words are mostly universal with agreed meaning (in context of one language of course). thus the word vegan is universally understood as a lifestyle and diet that seeks to exclude animal products. You can perfectly call yourself a vegan even if you eat meat, but then you either don't know what is universally understood by that word or you're not honest to yourself. But behind this first characteristics, there are still different people with different approaches. They can eat only fruit, but still they are vegans. They can dislike fruit but still they're vegan. There's no one way to be a vegan and you can't easily foresee what the person in question is like..
Being christian surely means more things than just being an agnostic. But it doesn't mean that all christians are same and have the same approach to the world around. One could say that being a christian is when someone believes in the Holy Trinity. Yet there are Unitarians, who believe in the Bible yet they interpret it differently. There are catholics and baptists.. shit, they read almost the same Bible and yet the are major differences between them... there are pro-life and pro-choice christians.. you can dislike it, but that's the way it is.. you're living in the world of paradoxes so one could thing you would be getting used to it
But I do agree with you about some set of fundamental beliefs for each religion or movement. That's the core of the problem with movements from my perspective btw. But you just can't automatically say things like "if you're christian, you can't be a sxe, kid" (oh shit, hornet's nest). you yourself once wrote that what defines sxe is what the people inside straight edge believe (we were talking about intercourse then). so when a majority of sxe kids will be christian, then christian sxe is not an oxymoron anymore..
things do change, face it.. try looking around yourself and not see stereotypes, but personalities.. each one of us is different.. we both are very different.. we're both sxe and one could say that we have to love Minor Threat.. i do, and you may too, but it's not a rule..
i'm not saying that this is written in stone.. the perfect and absolute truth.. it's just my outlook. my dogma if you want.. i'm not asking you to adopt it without reserve.. just respect it as i respect your view...

xsecx
11-11-2009, 09:01 AM
the sounds and clusters of shapes that we use as spoken or written words are mostly universal with agreed meaning (in context of one language of course). thus the word vegan is universally understood as a lifestyle and diet that seeks to exclude animal products. You can perfectly call yourself a vegan even if you eat meat, but then you either don't know what is universally understood by that word or you're not honest to yourself. But behind this first characteristics, there are still different people with different approaches. They can eat only fruit, but still they are vegans. They can dislike fruit but still they're vegan. There's no one way to be a vegan and you can't easily foresee what the person in question is like..
Being christian surely means more things than just being an agnostic. But it doesn't mean that all christians are same and have the same approach to the world around. One could say that being a christian is when someone believes in the Holy Trinity. Yet there are Unitarians, who believe in the Bible yet they interpret it differently. There are catholics and baptists.. shit, they read almost the same Bible and yet the are major differences between them... there are pro-life and pro-choice christians.. you can dislike it, but that's the way it is.. you're living in the world of paradoxes so one could thing you would be getting used to it
But I do agree with you about some set of fundamental beliefs for each religion or movement. That's the core of the problem with movements from my perspective btw. But you just can't automatically say things like "if you're christian, you can't be a sxe, kid" (oh shit, hornet's nest). you yourself once wrote that what defines sxe is what the people inside straight edge believe (we were talking about intercourse then). so when a majority of sxe kids will be christian, then christian sxe is not an oxymoron anymore..
things do change, face it.. try looking around yourself and not see stereotypes, but personalities.. each one of us is different.. we both are very different.. we're both sxe and one could say that we have to love Minor Threat.. i do, and you may too, but it's not a rule..
i'm not saying that this is written in stone.. the perfect and absolute truth.. it's just my outlook. my dogma if you want.. i'm not asking you to adopt it without reserve.. just respect it as i respect your view...

So when things are universally approved, like to be catholic you have to follow the doctrine and teaching of catholicism. And one of those doctrines is that the word of the pope is infallible. So how can you be catholic and pro-choice when the pope says you can't? There is a disconnect that people simply refuse to address. The fact of the matter is that their beliefs no long coincide with the church, but because of comfort/habit they still identify as such. If people actually were individuals and wanted to be viewed as such, then why would they hold onto labels that do not describe them? See in my example, you'd dismiss me as not being vegan, but somehow not any of the other examples in this thread? Why is that? Because if you're christian there is a litany of things you HAVE to believe to be christian? The simple fact is that you can't really believe things that are contradictory. You can't be christian and vegan for moral reasons. You can't be christian and homosexual. You can't be muslim and homosexual. You can't be jewish and homosexual. Just because there are people who claim to be, doesn't make them so, any more than me saying I'm vegan make me so. It's just that saying I'm not vegan fits your world view, but pointing out contradictions in other things apparently gives you issues. You want to be openminded when it comes to religion but closed minded about things like animal rights and veganism. You want to hold things to a different standard. I don't. At least I'm consistent and not pretending to be something I'm not.

and thanks for keep proving that you really don't understand the root of the issue between straight edge and christianity. When you can explain to me how someone can think god is wrong and still call themselves christian, then your point may have value, but right now you don't have one. This is a problem that extends far beyond just straight edge but it doesn't appear that you have a firm grasp as to what that problem actually is since everytime you bring it up you fail to talk about the actual real issue at hand and that is quite simply that one who is christian cannot find fault in god or jesus. That is a fundamental belief that all abrahamic religions are founded on. That god is superior to man. If you want to keep talking about it, then address that issue, since that's actually the problem and heart of the issue. Try looking around yourself and looking at things with a critical eye and actually ask yourself whether or not it makes sense, not whether or not it's about someone's spirituality.

lo0m
11-12-2009, 01:56 AM
So when things are universally approved, like to be catholic you have to follow the doctrine and teaching of catholicism. And one of those doctrines is that the word of the pope is infallible. So how can you be catholic and pro-choice when the pope says you can't? There is a disconnect that people simply refuse to address. The fact of the matter is that their beliefs no long coincide with the church, but because of comfort/habit they still identify as such. If people actually were individuals and wanted to be viewed as such, then why would they hold onto labels that do not describe them? See in my example, you'd dismiss me as not being vegan, but somehow not any of the other examples in this thread? Why is that? Because if you're christian there is a litany of things you HAVE to believe to be christian? The simple fact is that you can't really believe things that are contradictory. You can't be christian and vegan for moral reasons. You can't be christian and homosexual. You can't be muslim and homosexual. You can't be jewish and homosexual. Just because there are people who claim to be, doesn't make them so, any more than me saying I'm vegan make me so. It's just that saying I'm not vegan fits your world view, but pointing out contradictions in other things apparently gives you issues. You want to be openminded when it comes to religion but closed minded about things like animal rights and veganism. You want to hold things to a different standard. I don't. At least I'm consistent and not pretending to be something I'm not.

first, surprise, thank you.. this is a post from you i've waiting for some time. i too do see a split between religion (or movement) and individuality (or rather the preception of someones individuality by others). but you again chose a group of people that you're not part of and you're generalising their stance. catholic church surely has it's inner tensions, politics and movements. it's not a homogenic organisation. and I - as i'm not part of it - simply cannot say how many people see the pope just as another human with his flaws. how many people concentrate on faith rather than dogmas.. but I know christian people that concentrate on love as a primary source of faith and freedom (and yes, they see freedom in faith).
on the other hand i'm part of vegan world and AR movement - so yes, i'm projecting my own dogmas in that matter. i'm sensitive to that matter. That's what everyone does with what's dear to him. I didn't say I'm not part of the closeminded society. I'm just trying to escape it and be as openminded as I can be.



and thanks for keep proving that you really don't understand the root of the issue between straight edge and christianity. When you can explain to me how someone can think god is wrong and still call themselves christian, then your point may have value, but right now you don't have one. This is a problem that extends far beyond just straight edge but it doesn't appear that you have a firm grasp as to what that problem actually is since everytime you bring it up you fail to talk about the actual real issue at hand and that is quite simply that one who is christian cannot find fault in god or jesus. That is a fundamental belief that all abrahamic religions are founded on. That god is superior to man. If you want to keep talking about it, then address that issue, since that's actually the problem and heart of the issue. Try looking around yourself and looking at things with a critical eye and actually ask yourself whether or not it makes sense, not whether or not it's about someone's spirituality.

apples and oranges, really. and generalising again. someone can be a christian and think that the Bible is corrupted by men (and i knew some of them).. but they still believe in christ as a saviour. there are christians who think that the whole water-into-wine changing event never really happened and it has a hidden meaning. I'm not saying that I agree with them, nor should I even express if I do or not. It's not my thing. It's their faith and is up to them how they want to live their lifes. If there's a contradiction in their beliefs, let the other believers tell them, not the unbeliever.
but again, I chose it mainly as an example of how movement/religion can change. How people change and how nearly all labels just fall into pieces. And yes, straight edge is a good example of movement that is somehow consistent. But how long that will last? When I look around myself with a critical eye I see lot of 15yo emokids claiming edge...

just my outlook...

xsecx
11-12-2009, 08:44 AM
first, surprise, thank you.. this is a post from you i've waiting for some time. i too do see a split between religion (or movement) and individuality (or rather the preception of someones individuality by others). but you again chose a group of people that you're not part of and you're generalising their stance. catholic church surely has it's inner tensions, politics and movements. it's not a homogenic organisation. and I - as i'm not part of it - simply cannot say how many people see the pope just as another human with his flaws. how many people concentrate on faith rather than dogmas.. but I know christian people that concentrate on love as a primary source of faith and freedom (and yes, they see freedom in faith).
on the other hand i'm part of vegan world and AR movement - so yes, i'm projecting my own dogmas in that matter. i'm sensitive to that matter. That's what everyone does with what's dear to him. I didn't say I'm not part of the closeminded society. I'm just trying to escape it and be as openminded as I can be.


No, I'm accurately stating their beliefs. One of the core beliefs of catholicism is that the pope, when making statements of morality or church doctrine is infallible. It's not a matter of whether or not he's flawed as a human. The entire basis of the church is that the pope is the mouthpiece of god on earth and that when he speaks about matters of the church and morality he's speaking for god via the holy spirit. You make statements as if because I'm not apart of something that I therefore am somehow ignorant of how things work and unable to comment on them, this is now the second instance of this, and the second time where you're completely wrong. Just because you're ignorant on how things work outside of your beliefs doesn't mean everyone is. Dogma is a major part of religion, and what makes them what they are. In your world you just want to discount the dogma and just go with the "hey if you feel it, it's right" method. But you're inconsistent in this view point and the reality is that people can say they believe whatever they want, it just doesn't make it right, and just because it's religion, doesn't make it above scrutiny.



apples and oranges, really. and generalising again. someone can be a christian and think that the Bible is corrupted by men (and i knew some of them).. but they still believe in christ as a saviour. there are christians who think that the whole water-into-wine changing event never really happened and it has a hidden meaning. I'm not saying that I agree with them, nor should I even express if I do or not. It's not my thing. It's their faith and is up to them how they want to live their lifes. If there's a contradiction in their beliefs, let the other believers tell them, not the unbeliever.
but again, I chose it mainly as an example of how movement/religion can change. How people change and how nearly all labels just fall into pieces. And yes, straight edge is a good example of movement that is somehow consistent. But how long that will last? When I look around myself with a critical eye I see lot of 15yo emokids claiming edge...

just my outlook...

How is it apples and oranges, or generalizing? How can you make statements about universal definitions and then tell me that there can't be one for christians? To clarify your point, someone can call themselves a christian, but if they believe the bible is corrupted by man, then how exactly can they know/trust anything in it. Especially now when there are so many different versions and translations. It makes absolutely no sense to say "I believe christ is the savior, but I don't believe anything in the bible". I don't really understand why you think that someones morality, ie non vegan acts are questionable but someone's faith isn't. When people say things like jesus didn't water to wine, you'd have to ask why they think that. What are they basing it on, and if they're saying that jesus didn't perform a miracle? If they do, then they open up a lot more questions about their basis of faith and belief. Your treatment of religion vs everything else is completely hypocritical and inconsistent.

easy
11-16-2009, 11:21 AM
Aw hell....I know where this is going, but I want to throw in my experience--

I live in a high-Mormon population. People look at me and think, "Hey, she married young, doesn't drink, smoke, or consume caffeine...she must be a Latter Day Saint (LDS)" I hate that. And the pro-life/pro-choice thing....oh, and I'm Irish, so therefore I must be Catholic. I'm a teacher, so therefore I must know every book ever written and how to spell every word in the dictionary and don't mind being asked at random. Ass-u-me nothing!

how do you spell specticle? spectacle? spiktickle? specktucull? and what is it like being a catholic latter day saint????

:D

lo0m
11-18-2009, 05:45 AM
Dusty, you propably didn't understand what I meant (primarily the second part). You can call me a hypocrite if you want, that's just another word. All I wanted to say is that there is a great variety of people, each with it's own viewpoint. And they constantly change. Their beliefs change and so do dogmas of various religions.. so, as far as i can understand, it's really easy to put people into groups and generalize and classify their ideas and/or faith but despite of this (or maybe because of this) it really does not represent the real world and real people. the dogmas that you look upon as given (and that sounds like a religious idea to me) can change in next moment. that's all i wanted to add to this..

oh, by the way - religion and movement (like veganism) are really two different categories. they stand on different grounds, so if I treat them differently, it's not a hypocrisy, rather understanding their differences. if you don't (or don't want to) see them, fine, but don't blame me or, preferably, don't insult me...

CarlaRant
11-18-2009, 06:44 AM
how do you spell specticle? spectacle? spiktickle? specktucull? and what is it like being a catholic latter day saint????

:D

I'd give you the middle finger, but it's against my "religion" ;P


Ha-ha. Spiktickle.....

xsecx
11-18-2009, 08:50 AM
Dusty, you propably didn't understand what I meant (primarily the second part). You can call me a hypocrite if you want, that's just another word. All I wanted to say is that there is a great variety of people, each with it's own viewpoint. And they constantly change. Their beliefs change and so do dogmas of various religions.. so, as far as i can understand, it's really easy to put people into groups and generalize and classify their ideas and/or faith but despite of this (or maybe because of this) it really does not represent the real world and real people. the dogmas that you look upon as given (and that sounds like a religious idea to me) can change in next moment. that's all i wanted to add to this..


That doesn't actually address the core problem, that when the individual goes against the group, they cease being part of the group. That there are in fact beliefs that the individual can hold that will make them no longer part of the group, even if they still refer to themselves as they are. The simple point is that you can call yourself whatever you want, but that doesn't make it so. You somehow, even though you don't explain why, think that this doesn't carry over to religion where it does in everything else, but it does. You also fail to recognize that I'm not the one putting these people into groups. They are. I'm just holding them accountable for the beliefs of that group.



oh, by the way - religion and movement (like veganism) are really two different categories. they stand on different grounds, so if I treat them differently, it's not a hypocrisy, rather understanding their differences. if you don't (or don't want to) see them, fine, but don't blame me or, preferably, don't insult me...

ok. why? You keep calling science religion, when it clearly isn't. Why are religious beliefs different to others? Please explain to me why you think that someones morality, ie non vegan acts are questionable but someone's faith isn't.