gardein

[Cybapa]

I just heard of this company today and will hopefully pick up some stuff this weekend!

http://gardein.com/foods_we_make.php

Vegan meat alternatives and they look soooooo good! I think they're only available in USA/Canada for now. I'll tell you how they are soon enough.

[CarlaRant]

They're pretty good. They're available at Safeway and Fresh and Easy here in the States. The chkn is hit or miss, but Hubby likes the beef-style stuff.

[lo0m]

huh, that really looks like slices from corpses.. scary I must say.. what's the point of not eating a dead body when you're trying to fool all your senses that it IS a dead body? no flame, just fair game.

[mouseman004]

huh, that really looks like slices from corpses.. scary I must say.. what's the point of not eating a dead body when you're trying to fool all your senses that it IS a dead body? no flame, just fair game.

Because if you are vegan for moral or ethical reasons, you might still like the taste of meat so you would want to find something that closely resembles meat.

[CarlaRant]

Because if you are vegan for moral or ethical reasons, you might still like the taste of meat so you would want to find something that closely resembles meat.

Yeah, I don't like food that tastes too much like meat. However, Hubby occassionally misses the taste of steak, so he likes the faux stuff.

[lo0m]

Because if you are vegan for moral or ethical reasons, you might still like the taste of meat so you would want to find something that closely resembles meat.

i would agree with you without an blink of an eye, if you would mention health reasons. 'Cause when person is a meat eater and suddenly he can't eat meat for health reasons or he knows meat is not good for his organism yet he don't care much about moral reasons, then yes - this is a perfect choice for him.

but if you stop eating meat because of ethics - and than means because you deeply disagree with killing and torturing other animals and you choose to not support it and partake in it - why the hell would you put something that so much evokes the dead animal on your plate? that really smells like hypocrisy to me. it's like if an anti-fur protester would put a faux fur jacket on him.. or an antiracist activist wearing an KKK style mask..

so the only reasons i can swallow are health reasons or when a person is in transition to veg(eteari)anism... other than that - i guess i'll never understand..

[straightXed]

i would agree with you without an blink of an eye, if you would mention health reasons. 'Cause when person is a meat eater and suddenly he can't eat meat for health reasons or he knows meat is not good for his organism yet he don't care much about moral reasons, then yes - this is a perfect choice for him.

but if you stop eating meat because of ethics - and than means because you deeply disagree with killing and torturing other animals and you choose to not support it and partake in it - why the hell would you put something that so much evokes the dead animal on your plate? that really smells like hypocrisy to me. it's like if an anti-fur protester would put a faux fur jacket on him.. or an antiracist activist wearing an KKK style mask..

so the only reasons i can swallow are health reasons or when a person is in transition to veg(eteari)anism... other than that - i guess i'll never understand..

I really don't see how you can compare wearing KKK masks to eating vegetarian or vegan food moulded a particular way. If you find your vegan or vegetarian diet easier to follow and grow accustomed to this way then how is that so bad...you are not eating animals you are just having food that helps you move away from real meat and animal products. Surely the ethic is sound in that it is an aid to crave meat less and sales certainly would point to many people agreeing. Next you will be telling me that animal shaped crackers or bear shaped maize snacks are also bad times! And how is it unethical to wear faux fur? if you like the look of fur but hate the idea of animals being used that way how are ethics being strained? How is it hypocrisy? I mean you aren't using fur and animals aren't dying as a result, you aren't eating meat and are actually substituting where meat was in your diet...i don't see hypocrisy there at all. And the KKK thing just doesn't seem to fit in as a relevant comparison at all.

[mouseman004]

i would agree with you without an blink of an eye, if you would mention health reasons. 'Cause when person is a meat eater and suddenly he can't eat meat for health reasons or he knows meat is not good for his organism yet he don't care much about moral reasons, then yes - this is a perfect choice for him.

but if you stop eating meat because of ethics - and than means because you deeply disagree with killing and torturing other animals and you choose to not support it and partake in it - why the hell would you put something that so much evokes the dead animal on your plate? that really smells like hypocrisy to me. it's like if an anti-fur protester would put a faux fur jacket on him.. or an antiracist activist wearing an KKK style mask..

so the only reasons i can swallow are health reasons or when a person is in transition to veg(eteari)anism... other than that - i guess i'll never understand..

There is absolutely no hyprocrisy invovled in eating veggie or vegan meat alternatives. If I am against the torturing and killing of animals for food, then my moral obligation would be to not eat meat. Eating fake meat in no way harms animals and in no way takes away from my moral stance. You're taking it to an extreme level that makes no sense. There would be nothing wrong with an animal activist wearing faux fur, because there is no actual fur in the coat so they are not doing anything that is against their moral beleif system. And your KKK mask analogy makes no sense.

[xsecx]

i would agree with you without an blink of an eye, if you would mention health reasons. 'Cause when person is a meat eater and suddenly he can't eat meat for health reasons or he knows meat is not good for his organism yet he don't care much about moral reasons, then yes - this is a perfect choice for him.

but if you stop eating meat because of ethics - and than means because you deeply disagree with killing and torturing other animals and you choose to not support it and partake in it - why the hell would you put something that so much evokes the dead animal on your plate? that really smells like hypocrisy to me. it's like if an anti-fur protester would put a faux fur jacket on him.. or an antiracist activist wearing an KKK style mask..

so the only reasons i can swallow are health reasons or when a person is in transition to veg(eteari)anism... other than that - i guess i'll never understand..

"you try to stigmatize a group based on its believes and try to deduce some hypothetical behavior pattern or even level of inteligence .. shit, that is totally comparable to mild racism for me.."

[lo0m]

I really don't see how you can compare wearing KKK masks to eating vegetarian or vegan food moulded a particular way. If you find your vegan or vegetarian diet easier to follow and grow accustomed to this way then how is that so bad...you are not eating animals you are just having food that helps you move away from real meat and animal products. Surely the ethic is sound in that it is an aid to crave meat less and sales certainly would point to many people agreeing. Next you will be telling me that animal shaped crackers or bear shaped maize snacks are also bad times! And how is it unethical to wear faux fur? if you like the look of fur but hate the idea of animals being used that way how are ethics being strained? How is it hypocrisy? I mean you aren't using fur and animals aren't dying as a result, you aren't eating meat and are actually substituting where meat was in your diet...i don't see hypocrisy there at all. And the KKK thing just doesn't seem to fit in as a relevant comparison at all.

ok, that's your opinion and I respect that. But I really see some inconsistency there. Surely there is no animal harmed (not directly). It is surely better that eating meat, i'm not arguing on this at all. But the point of being vegan is not only to deny meat and dairy products. Rather it's to deny exploitation of other living creatures and to deny the IDEA that human needs meat. If the KKK paralel is too much for you, I can easily use more familiar to you.
We're sxe. We deny alcohol, for whatever reason but mostly because of it's effects on human mind and body it has. But imagine that you would drink an non alcoholic drink that would taste like whiskey from a whiskey bottle in a club. Your wouldn't brake edge that's for sure but where would be your message? Where would be your stand against drugs? Where would be your opposition to drug culture when people around you would thing that it's okay to drink whiskey when you're edge?
And it's the same with advocacy for animal rights. When you're not eating meat because the idea of eating meat is disgusting to you, what's the point of fooling yourself that you're eating it?
And what's wrong with wearing faux fur? Because if you do, you're a walking ad for real fur companies. Every person that would look at you and say to himself: "Wow, he looks really cool" is a potential customer to industry that you seamingly boycott.

[lo0m]

"you try to stigmatize a group based on its believes and try to deduce some hypothetical behavior pattern or even level of inteligence .. shit, that is totally comparable to mild racism for me.."

you can stop answering my post, i won't reply.. i really miss the Ignore button for admins.

[straightXed]

ok, that's your opinion and I respect that. But I really see some inconsistency there. Surely there is no animal harmed (not directly). It is surely better that eating meat, i'm not arguing on this at all. But the point of being vegan is not only to deny meat and dairy products. Rather it's to deny exploitation of other living creatures and to deny the IDEA that human needs meat. If the KKK paralel is too much for you, I can easily use more familiar to you.

Its not that its too much its just that it is a really poor choice of paralel as it makes no sense, the comparison does not work.

So How is an animal exploited if vegan sausages are made?

If true veganism is against such things why does the vegan society approve such things?

Making food out of vegan ingredients does deny that a human needs meat, how does it not?

Just because there are age old recipes around that have used meat all things like this sufggest is that this product would serve as a good replacement for chicken in that chicken and mushroom pie you are making. All these products are huge steps away from animal exploitation and the idea that meat is needed, you seem to be a little blinkered on this one.



We're sxe. We deny alcohol, for whatever reason but mostly because of it's effects on human mind and body it has. But imagine that you would drink an non alcoholic drink that would taste like whiskey from a whiskey bottle in a club. Your wouldn't brake edge that's for sure but where would be your message? Where would be your stand against drugs? Where would be your opposition to drug culture when people around you would thing that it's okay to drink whiskey when you're edge?

Well if i actually liked the taste of whiskey and wanted to replace that as the alcohol was my issue then what the problem with that? My message and stance would remain the same, that alcohol is wrong and further more i can enjoy a beverage without the need for it to be alcoholic. I would not have consumed anything other than a soft drink and i do that now, when my family gets together for celebrations and they drink wine i have some kind of sparkling grape juice as an alternative. You could say it is a wine alternative so what should i do? avoid that? I have no idea how you have jumped onto where i stand against drugs from drinking a soft drink, if people think its ok to take drugs based on my actions of drinking non alcoholic soft drinks then the issue is in their heads and quite possibly yours if you think thats sound logic and reasoning. But in addition to all that why anyone would make a soft drink taste like whiskey is beyond me because its disgusting, people geberally don't drink whiskey out of bottles and animal substitutes don't ever taste anything like meat at all.




And it's the same with advocacy for animal rights. When you're not eating meat because the idea of eating meat is disgusting to you, what's the point of fooling yourself that you're eating it?

Well if it is disgusting to you then don't eat anything that is shaped, flavoured or branded to be anykind of meat alternative then. But its a bit nots denying its properties and consistancies within cooking. Like egg replacement to help bind things in baking...sure you can use a product calling itself egg replacement and you would be all against that i suppose but what if they used a banana to behave as an egg...is that wrong? The whole concept you are putting forward makes no sense. I mean TVP is textured to do the job ground meat does, not because its more like meat but because it give a good texture to food, holds flavour and gives consistancy. People use moulded shaped lumps of whatever to replace chicken so they can enjoy a tasty roast dinner. No ones fooled into thinking they are actually eating meat it just serves as a replacement so they can continue to have meals they are accustomed to and/or enjoy having. And theres really nothing disgusting about eating something as a non animal/vegan friendly alternative.



And what's wrong with wearing faux fur? Because if you do, you're a walking ad for real fur companies. Every person that would look at you and say to himself: "Wow, he looks really cool" is a potential customer to industry that you seamingly boycott.

And if that person has an issue with real fur then they will not buy real fur, if they don't then its really no issue. Next you will be telling me that sharps are an advert for nazi skins! I dislike bootlegged clothing, like cheap rip offs of big companies, i really don't want to support that, in order not to support it should i not wear the original clothing put out by those companies? I mean i will just be a walking advert for these rip off companies! You know i eat meat and one of the first things i ask people i see wearing fur is if it is real or not. More often than not it is fake and most people prefer fake over real. Its not until you get into more expensive fashion that fur is a bit more notable and if someone is stupid to buy a product based on the fact they saw someone else where it without first consulting how they feel about fur well then they truly are daft. Hell, maybe some people should stop wearing clothes altogether as they could be a advert for all clothes made in sweatshops. I can see your point but it is apparent you are taking it to unrealistic extremes.

[straightXed]

you can stop answering my post, i won't reply.. i really miss the Ignore button for admins.

Are you ignoring mouseman too?

[xsecx]

you can stop answering my post, i won't reply.. i really miss the Ignore button for admins.

I can, but it's just too much fun to point out where you're a hypocrite.

[lo0m]

I can, but it's just too much fun to point out where you're a hypocrite.

ahaa, so which group that i'm not part of i'm labeling idiots? shit, you got me again.. whatever..

[lo0m]

Are you ignoring mouseman too?

not at all, but i believe that my respond to your post was also kinda response to mouseman as you both share similar opinion..

[lo0m]

Its not that its too much its just that it is a really poor choice of paralel as it makes no sense, the comparison does not work.
maybe it is..

So How is an animal exploited if vegan sausages are made?
these products are sometimes made from products from mono-agriculture. even these "bio" farms mean death to many animals..


If true veganism is against such things why does the vegan society approve such things?
i was not talking about some "flawed veganism" and "true veganism".. i was just talking about a moral choice you're not part of and don't expect you to understand "inner vegan" debates where I am just one little voice with different opinon that some cluster of vegans propably don't share.

Making food out of vegan ingredients does deny that a human needs meat, how does it not? yeah, but making it to look like and taste like meat is whole different story


Just because there are age old recipes around that have used meat all things like this sufggest is that this product would serve as a good replacement for chicken in that chicken and mushroom pie you are making. All these products are huge steps away from animal exploitation and the idea that meat is needed, you seem to be a little blinkered on this one.
yes, that is true. but again - meat in recipes can be replaced with many different things that do not taste like meat. If that was a meat recipe, change it. If that is the legacy from animal exploting forefathers, refuse it.




Well if i actually liked the taste of whiskey and wanted to replace that as the alcohol was my issue then what the problem with that? My message and stance would remain the same, that alcohol is wrong and further more i can enjoy a beverage without the need for it to be alcoholic. I would not have consumed anything other than a soft drink and i do that now, when my family gets together for celebrations and they drink wine i have some kind of sparkling grape juice as an alternative. You could say it is a wine alternative so what should i do? avoid that? I have no idea how you have jumped onto where i stand against drugs from drinking a soft drink, if people think its ok to take drugs based on my actions of drinking non alcoholic soft drinks then the issue is in their heads and quite possibly yours if you think thats sound logic and reasoning. But in addition to all that why anyone would make a soft drink taste like whiskey is beyond me because its disgusting, people geberally don't drink whiskey out of bottles and animal substitutes don't ever taste anything like meat at all.exactly.. it's in their heads..






Well if it is disgusting to you then don't eat anything that is shaped, flavoured or branded to be anykind of meat alternative then. But its a bit nots denying its properties and consistancies within cooking. Like egg replacement to help bind things in baking...sure you can use a product calling itself egg replacement and you would be all against that i suppose but what if they used a banana to behave as an egg...is that wrong? The whole concept you are putting forward makes no sense. I mean TVP is textured to do the job ground meat does, not because its more like meat but because it give a good texture to food, holds flavour and gives consistancy. People use moulded shaped lumps of whatever to replace chicken so they can enjoy a tasty roast dinner. No ones fooled into thinking they are actually eating meat it just serves as a replacement so they can continue to have meals they are accustomed to and/or enjoy having. And theres really nothing disgusting about eating something as a non animal/vegan friendly alternative.well i don't.. the rest of this is just what i've expected from meat eating person..





And if that person has an issue with real fur then they will not buy real fur, if they don't then its really no issue. Next you will be telling me that sharps are an advert for nazi skins! I dislike bootlegged clothing, like cheap rip offs of big companies, i really don't want to support that, in order not to support it should i not wear the original clothing put out by those companies? I mean i will just be a walking advert for these rip off companies! You know i eat meat and one of the first things i ask people i see wearing fur is if it is real or not. More often than not it is fake and most people prefer fake over real. Its not until you get into more expensive fashion that fur is a bit more notable and if someone is stupid to buy a product based on the fact they saw someone else where it without first consulting how they feel about fur well then they truly are daft. Hell, maybe some people should stop wearing clothes altogether as they could be a advert for all clothes made in sweatshops. I can see your point but it is apparent you are taking it to unrealistic extremes.
you propably just discovered the core of capitalist system.. congratulations...
and of course i'm taking it into unrealistic extreme.. that is what I wanted and that was always my intention in pointless internet debates :-) .. that is how I relax ...

[xsecx]

ahaa, so which group that i'm not part of i'm labeling idiots? shit, you got me again.. whatever..

so you're not stigmatizing a group? That people who are vegan for ethical reasons should be disgusted by meat to the point that they shouldn't even eat fake meat? That seems like a hypothetical behavior pattern to me. Or does it not matter because it's what you believe and not me? I find it completely hilarious that you're now looking down your nose at meat eaters and attempt to dismiss one of ed's point because he eats meat. Man, your hypocrisy is awesome.

[lo0m]

so you're not stigmatizing a group? That people who are vegan for ethical reasons should be disgusted by meat to the point that they shouldn't even eat fake meat? That seems like a hypothetical behavior pattern to me. Or does it not matter because it's what you believe and not me? I find it completely hilarious that you're now looking down your nose at meat eaters and attempt to dismiss one of ed's point because he eats meat. Man, your hypocrisy is awesome.

no, i'm not. i'm expresing my own feelings and opinions. all this started with my question why. not with an attack, but with a question, there's a difference.
that hypothetical behaviour pattern is my behaviour pattern. i'm not forcing my opinion to anyone and i'm completely ok with others doing it. i'm just not fine with me doing it and i'm also trying to explain it. maybe a harsh way, but you should be ok with that as you act the same.
i'm not looking down on meat eaters. but the fact is, that it's hard for someone from "outer world" to understand inner differences between members of one group. be it veganism, religion, sxe or local boyscouts. I didn't dismissed ed's point. i respect his view completely, i just expressed my thought that it can be hard to understand my point for him, as he is not a vegetarian, nor a vegan, so ethic arguments regarding meat eating are not very familiar to him.
i'm also completely ok, that you'll reply to this with another attack :-)) .. yeah, my hypocrisy is awesome..

[xsecx]

no, i'm not. i'm expresing my own feelings and opinions. all this started with my question why. not with an attack, but with a question, there's a difference.
that hypothetical behaviour pattern is my behaviour pattern. i'm not forcing my opinion to anyone and i'm completely ok with others doing it. i'm just not fine with me doing it and i'm also trying to explain it. maybe a harsh way, but you should be ok with that as you act the same.
i'm not looking down on meat eaters. but the fact is, that it's hard for someone from "outer world" to understand inner differences between members of one group. be it veganism, religion, sxe or local boyscouts. I didn't dismissed ed's point. i respect his view completely, i just expressed my thought that it can be hard to understand my point for him, as he is not a vegetarian, nor a vegan, so ethic arguments regarding meat eating are not very familiar to him.
i'm also completely ok, that you'll reply to this with another attack :-)) .. yeah, my hypocrisy is awesome..

if it's about you and you only, then why make the statements you have, since they're about the behaviors of others? Statements like "When you're not eating meat because the idea of eating meat is disgusting to you, what's the point of fooling yourself that you're eating it?" kind of imply that you are forcing your opinion of what a vegan should do, what someone who thinks eating meat is disgusting should do. Your statement that you're completely ok with others doing it seems to contradict what you've said in this thread. You don't appear to be ok with it, since you don't think people should even eat things that look like meat. If you did, then you wouldn't think that way, would you? If you were ok with it, you wouldn't be an ethical vegan then.


And uh, you do realize that ed was vegan for years right? It could be that your points are bullshit, but it's easier for you say that he must not understand them because he's not a vegan than to come to terms with the faulty logic your statements are based on.

[lo0m]

if it's about you and you only, then why make the statements you have, since they're about the behaviors of others? Statements like "When you're not eating meat because the idea of eating meat is disgusting to you, what's the point of fooling yourself that you're eating it?" kind of imply that you are forcing your opinion of what a vegan should do, what someone who thinks eating meat is disgusting should do.
Well, that's a question and it should imply what it implies - that i'm asking

Your statement that you're completely ok with others doing it seems to contradict what you've said in this thread. You don't appear to be ok with it, since you don't think people should even eat things that look like meat. If you did, then you wouldn't think that way, would you? If you were ok with it, you wouldn't be an ethical vegan then.
i'm glad to read your opinion.. but as it happened in the past, you're mistaken. maybe from my side, i don't know. but it should give you a hint, that next time asking a question would be better way to find out what I think than insist on your own intelligence and sense of deduction. it just doesn't seem to work well, does it?


And uh, you do realize that ed was vegan for years right? It could be that your points are bullshit, but it's easier for you say that he must not understand them because he's not a vegan than to come to terms with the faulty logic your statements are based on.
no, of course i didn't know ed was vegan. than maybe my points really are bullshit or maybe his view is bullshit, i am willing to find out and i am also willing to learn from my own possible mistakes. i just don't know what's your part in this.. oh, yeah, i remember, you again wanted to boost your ego.. i hope you're satisfied now..

[xsecx]

Well, that's a question and it should imply what it implies - that i'm asking

You make it out like your questions are full of judgment and aren't largely rhetorical. The question you asked was a rhetorical one. You act like you care about the answer when the reality, and your replies show that you don't.





i'm glad to read your opinion.. but as it happened in the past, you're mistaken. maybe from my side, i don't know. but it should give you a hint, that next time asking a question would be better way to find out what I think than insist on your own intelligence and sense of deduction. it just doesn't seem to work well, does it?



So when you say things it doesn't demonstrate how you feel about a subject? That because you think people shouldn't eat fake meat, that doesn't say anything about what you think about something? Or do you just like the sound of your own typing that you just say things that are contradictory and don't actually ever put your own thoughts or feelings into things? If so then what exact does this statement say then? "But the point of being vegan is not only to deny meat and dairy products. Rather it's to deny exploitation of other living creatures and to deny the IDEA that human needs meat." So how exactly are you ok with it? You're more caught up in arguing with me than realizing that the shit you're saying contradicts itself, and honestly is kind of crazy.





no, of course i didn't know ed was vegan. than maybe my points really are bullshit or maybe his view is bullshit, i am willing to find out and i am also willing to learn from my own possible mistakes. i just don't know what's your part in this.. oh, yeah, i remember, you again wanted to boost your ego.. i hope you're satisfied now..

"but it should give you a hint, that next time asking a question would be better way to find out what I think than insist on your own intelligence and sense of deduction." So shouldn't you be following your own advice?

my part in this now is just to fuck with you. it's really easy and fun.

[lo0m]

You make it out like your questions are full of judgment and aren't largely rhetorical. The question you asked was a rhetorical one. You act like you care about the answer when the reality, and your replies show that you don't.






So when you say things it doesn't demonstrate how you feel about a subject? That because you think people shouldn't eat fake meat, that doesn't say anything about what you think about something? Or do you just like the sound of your own typing that you just say things that are contradictory and don't actually ever put your own thoughts or feelings into things? If so then what exact does this statement say then? "But the point of being vegan is not only to deny meat and dairy products. Rather it's to deny exploitation of other living creatures and to deny the IDEA that human needs meat." So how exactly are you ok with it? You're more caught up in arguing with me than realizing that the shit you're saying contradicts itself, and honestly is kind of crazy.





"but it should give you a hint, that next time asking a question would be better way to find out what I think than insist on your own intelligence and sense of deduction." So shouldn't you be following your own advice?

my part in this now is just to fuck with you. it's really easy and fun.

it seems exact opposite from this side of the ocean.. or do you really think that I would fall into honest debate with you again?

[xsecx]

it seems exact opposite from this side of the ocean.. or do you really think that I would fall into honest debate with you again?

You don't seem to be able to help yourself, especially since the points I make are actually valid. The fucking with you part is just an added bonus.

[lo0m]

You don't seem to be able to help yourself, especially since the points I make are actually valid. The fucking with you part is just an added bonus.

if the person who makes the points also determines if they're valid, then my points are valid too..

[xsecx]

if the person who makes the points also determines if they're valid, then my points are valid too..

then you should probably spend some more time worrying about them, and actually address the points made rather than the personalities of the people making them.

[straightXed]

maybe it is..

No, it is just a shit analogy



these products are sometimes made from products from mono-agriculture. even these "bio" farms mean death to many animals..

Sometimes is a rather operative word which you seem to not be taking on board at all.




i was not talking about some "flawed veganism" and "true veganism".. i was just talking about a moral choice you're not part of and don't expect you to understand "inner vegan" debates where I am just one little voice with different opinon that some cluster of vegans propably don't share.

Thats great, so now you think the majority of vegans are morally wrong!




yeah, but making it to look like and taste like meat is whole different story

Like i said, it doesn't taste like meat but it does taste in such a way that appeals to a lot of peoples taste. As for looks, well meat is not exactly as its found, its either processed, sliced or in cuts which make it more applicable to cooking and eating. Consistancy and cuts are things done to suit how humans want the food to be regardless of it being animal or not. Theres a multiple of reasons for the taste and lok/feel but you can't see beyond your own nose.


yes, that is true. but again - meat in recipes can be replaced with many different things that do not taste like meat. If that was a meat recipe, change it. If that is the legacy from animal exploting forefathers, refuse it.

Hello, they are changing it but you still have an issue with it. They really don't taste that much like any kind of meat product but the descriptions serve to identify what it makes a good replacement for. It aides in making a full and varied vegan diet without making a bunch of stuff that tastes like puke.



exactly.. it's in their heads..

you really didn't answer the questions or points raised there, i'm thinking you should just accept your ability at making coherent or working analogies is simply not up to par...give it up or address the points.



well i don't.. the rest of this is just what i've expected from meat eating person..

Way to discuss the actual points i raised!! So instead of actually responding to the questions you point out that i eat meat and that you expected those points but yet don't actually counter them or provide any kind of sensible discussion on the matter. You are giving the impression that you can't logically argue this stance of yours and are now simply refusing too. You are also giving the impression that you aren't very smart but are rather child like in your approach to civil discourse.



you propably just discovered the core of capitalist system.. congratulations...
and of course i'm taking it into unrealistic extreme.. that is what I wanted and that was always my intention in pointless internet debates :-) .. that is how I relax ...

Well congratulations to you also for not actually being able to make your point stand and not having the balls to accept it and instead just start behaving like a dick. If you think its pointless (and i do agree it is pointless as you are clearly unable to discuss things coherently, make logical analogies and field questions without ignoring them or responding with ignorant comebacks) but then say its how you relax then obviously it isn't pointless to you. You just can't stop contradicting yourself can you?

So, to summerise what you are saying is vegans are unethical people but this is because your point is purposefully unrealistic and that the only reason you are engaging in this is to relax somehow...a bit like trolling?

[straightXed]

no, i'm not. i'm expresing my own feelings and opinions. all this started with my question why. not with an attack, but with a question, there's a difference.
that hypothetical behaviour pattern is my behaviour pattern. i'm not forcing my opinion to anyone and i'm completely ok with others doing it. i'm just not fine with me doing it and i'm also trying to explain it. maybe a harsh way, but you should be ok with that as you act the same.
i'm not looking down on meat eaters. but the fact is, that it's hard for someone from "outer world" to understand inner differences between members of one group. be it veganism, religion, sxe or local boyscouts. I didn't dismissed ed's point. i respect his view completely, i just expressed my thought that it can be hard to understand my point for him, as he is not a vegetarian, nor a vegan, so ethic arguments regarding meat eating are not very familiar to him.
i'm also completely ok, that you'll reply to this with another attack :-)) .. yeah, my hypocrisy is awesome..


You dismissed and ignored a lot of what i wrote.

[lo0m]

No, it is just a shit analogy


oh, thank you Allmighty for leting me know the ultimate truth...


Sometimes is a rather operative word which you seem to not be taking on board at all.





Thats great, so now you think the majority of vegans are morally wrong!



Why the hell do you think that?? Is it really me who implies that if I have different opinion than some other vegans than i'm morally superior?




Like i said, it doesn't taste like meat but it does taste in such a way that appeals to a lot of peoples taste. As for looks, well meat is not exactly as its found, its either processed, sliced or in cuts which make it more applicable to cooking and eating. Consistancy and cuts are things done to suit how humans want the food to be regardless of it being animal or not. Theres a multiple of reasons for the taste and lok/feel but you can't see beyond your own nose.

i can't see beyond my own nose? why? that would be true, if i wouldn't just raise a question a defend my opinion. i'm not saying that my truth is the ultimate truth and every vegan has to accept or he/she's not vegan anymore. far from that




Hello, they are changing it but you still have an issue with it. They really don't taste that much like any kind of meat product but the descriptions serve to identify what it makes a good replacement for. It aides in making a full and varied vegan diet without making a bunch of stuff that tastes like puke.

this is also very subjective. you can make propably more delicious food based on vegetables than on vegan meat alternatives. If that tastes like puke, then you're simply bad cook.



you really didn't answer the questions or points raised there, i'm thinking you should just accept your ability at making coherent or working analogies is simply not up to par...give it up or address the points.


the things you said are true and i agreed. you would remain edge if you would drink non-alcoholic drink from whiskey bottle. the difference is propably that i do care about others people thoughts about me being sxe, you aparently don't. there's nothing wrong with that. it just served to show you my different approach to both sxe and veganism..

[/quote]


Way to discuss the actual points i raised!! So instead of actually responding to the questions you point out that i eat meat and that you expected those points but yet don't actually counter them or provide any kind of sensible discussion on the matter. You are giving the impression that you can't logically argue this stance of yours and are now simply refusing too. You are also giving the impression that you aren't very smart but are rather child like in your approach to civil discourse.

ok, food can be stuck together by many different substances. from bananas in cakes to mashed seeds in "salty dishes" (i mean not sweet food). egg is also one of them, but that really doesn't mean that banana or seeds were designed to replace eggs in cooking.
your other arguments just remind me debates with meateaters about "what you eat?", "how do make this and that food without using meat and milk?".. switching to veganism was really not about replacing something in food for me, it was about finding other food, becuase it's more healthy to adopt more vegetable/fruit centered diet than to cook your old recipes with switching meat for an alternative. maybe this is more true to czech kitchen, which similar to german (and that is - very meat oriented. meat, dumplings or potatoes and some sauce) than american, i can't say.



Well congratulations to you also for not actually being able to make your point stand and not having the balls to accept it and instead just start behaving like a dick. If you think its pointless (and i do agree it is pointless as you are clearly unable to discuss things coherently, make logical analogies and field questions without ignoring them or responding with ignorant comebacks) but then say its how you relax then obviously it isn't pointless to you. You just can't stop contradicting yourself can you?

than you relax only on things that really do matter to you.. i can perfectly relax on something pointless..


So, to summerise what you are saying is vegans are unethical people but this is because your point is purposefully unrealistic and that the only reason you are engaging in this is to relax somehow...a bit like trolling?
well, that's all wrong. i didn't say vegans are unethical, i would say that my diet is also unethical (even if i'm very fruit-oriented).. i just wanted an answer (and yes - from vegan if possible) to my question. it really makes no difference for me, but i was curious about why other people have different opinion. and yes, i was relaxing from coding pretty good.
trolling? trolling would be, if i was provoking some emotional response, talking off-topic or disrupting. if that would be the truth, i believe admin would stop me doing this...

ok, let's stop this.. i can now understand why people use meat alternatives. i won't use them as i'm not cooking any meat-requering dishes and anything that resembles real meat makes me sick (just like that, it really makes me wanna go puke). from the list of meat alternatives i eat only seitan (which i really don't consider a meat alternative even it propably can be used as such - i didn't try that). so you basically answered my question.

[straightXed]

oh, thank you Allmighty for leting me know the ultimate truth...

Well you haven't made it work or made it coherently relate and now just use a facetious response istead of either accepting it doesn't work or make a coherent argument for why it does.


Why the hell do you think that??

Because of what you have written in this thread.


Is it really me who implies that if I have different opinion than some other vegans than i'm morally superior?

You do so indirectly by suggesting they are unethical.


i can't see beyond my own nose? why? that would be true, if i wouldn't just raise a question a defend my opinion. i'm not saying that my truth is the ultimate truth and every vegan has to accept or he/she's not vegan anymore. far from that

But your language and diction suggest otherwise. You suggest your opinion as the actuality of being vegan. You say the point of vegan is to be against animal exploitation and go on to suggest that certain vegan food is indicative of exploitation when really it isn't you just have a bizarre and skewed perspective. You also tend to be blinkered to the reasoning that it isn't exploitive of animals. If however you are looking to retract your statement then please go ahead.





this is also very subjective. you can make propably more delicious food based on vegetables than on vegan meat alternatives.

Nice to see you are being way more subjective. Also nice to see you are creating a divide and missing the point of meat alternatives and viewing them as an oppositie instead of an accompying factor. I mean what a ridiculous point...you can make more nice food with vegatables! Its ludicrous, your points are getting way off and missing the point that people want some kind of alternative with their meals. These alternatives are vegetable (or similar) based, but are used to substitute texture and consistancy that make certain meals work. Now people use nuts, tofu, gluten and all sorts to replace meat, what is wrong with catering to that market with other new products that people make or may not enjoy. It certainly is not ethically against being vegan.



If that tastes like puke, then you're simply bad cook.

Me personally, i am a great cook but there are bad cooks out there and you are happy for them to eat food that leaves them unsatisfied and could probably make them ditch the idea of being vegan. The alternatives ensure more of a growth in the number of vegan people. And of course those wonderfully ethical vegans with their new vegan products ethically out trump your daft issue with the ethics of a mushroom being shaped like a sausage.




the things you said are true and i agreed. you would remain edge if you would drink non-alcoholic drink from whiskey bottle. the difference is propably that i do care about others people thoughts about me being sxe, you aparently don't. there's nothing wrong with that. it just served to show you my different approach to both sxe and veganism..

Actually i care a great deal but you show a complete low opinion of how everyone else percieves things which is pretty disgusting. It like you are suggesting everyone else is purely idiotic, thats what you put forward. The point is more and more people are comming to realise that just because a food is shaped like a sausage it doesn't mean it is meat. More and more meat eaters are finding alternatives to meat that they actually find enjoyable. More and more resturaunts carry more and more options for non meat eaters that are just as popular with meat eaters. This is positive growth of the diet and positive exposure for many many more people, it is a great help in making non meat foods a plausable choice for many more people. Which of course aids in reducing the demand of actual meat products. Ethically, as a vegan, you should champion that even if you don't eat it yourself. Instead of chastising the idea of this food as unethical and remaining blinkered. I would love to see bars serve more range with non alcoholic drinks, whiskey i think would be a bad choice, but i would champion more options for non drinkers. I would champion a reduction in the focus on alcohol to the point that if someone saw me drinking something they wouldn't automatically assume its alcohol. I think that would be great and i would love peoples options to be broadened as many people drink alcohol in social situations as the options for anything else are dire. Pretty much like it was for vegans way back in the day.




ok, food can be stuck together by many different substances. from bananas in cakes to mashed seeds in "salty dishes" (i mean not sweet food). egg is also one of them, but that really doesn't mean that banana or seeds were designed to replace eggs in cooking.

But they are being used as replacements, you can't deny that. And so are other foods. I mean the point is you are using a food to act and behave like an egg. Taking soya to act and behave similar to another non vegan food is no different. eggs weren't designed to bind cakes neither were bananas, soya wasn't designed to be made into this that or the other and a cows ass wasn't designed to be made into mince for a chilli. However the ingenuity of man makes all those things possible, using that ingenuity to find an alternative to "exploiting" animals is not exploitive.


your other arguments just remind me debates with meateaters about "what you eat?", "how do make this and that food without using meat and milk?"..

I just think you are so used to reacting to questions about veganism with stock responses you don't fully pay attention to what is being presented to you. I haven't asked what you eat or how you make thinhs without this or that. I have simply put forward other vegan alternatives that equate to the same thing but look decidedly more preposterous to be against. Since we are talking about how we find the others debating style, i have no issue with your personal choice on what you eat but find your suggestion that it is unethical illogical, unfounded, flawed and have found that your reasoning chastises without taking everything into account. I also found that your ability to discuss the matter highlights an inabilty to debate in a civil way, assumes the absoloute worst of others and generally leaves you responding without taking on board what is said.




switching to veganism was really not about replacing something in food for me, it was about finding other food, becuase it's more healthy to adopt more vegetable/fruit centered diet than to cook your old recipes with switching meat for an alternative. maybe this is more true to czech kitchen, which similar to german (and that is - very meat oriented. meat, dumplings or potatoes and some sauce) than american, i can't say.

Well my venture into veganism was purely one of health but that is really neither here nor there, the point is that its not unethical to eat a food stuff that serves as a substitute and it is actually a good thing for veganism.




than you relax only on things that really do matter to you.. i can perfectly relax on something pointless..

You obviously didn't read what i wrote. The point is that if you use it to relax then it has a point...to help you relax, thus its not pointless. Its amazing how little time you put into reading what is written and how little thought you put into what you write.



well, that's all wrong. i didn't say vegans are unethical,

Umm, yes you did. You say the point of being vegan is to deny all exploitation and argue that these vegan foods are exploitation thus they aren't fulfilling the vegan criteria. Are you now retracting this?




i would say that my diet is also unethical (even if i'm very fruit-oriented).. i just wanted an answer (and yes - from vegan if possible) to my question.

does this relate to how you are purposefully unrealistic?




it really makes no difference for me, but i was curious about why other people have different opinion. and yes, i was relaxing from coding pretty good.

Well it seems that when you rellax you lose the ability to debate at all.





trolling? trolling would be, if i was provoking some emotional response, talking off-topic or disrupting. if that would be the truth, i believe admin would stop me doing this...

I said like trolling...i mean you put forward the idea that you find the discussion pointless, you made flipant responses that shows you didn't really take the points on board and also mentioned how you were striving to be unrealistic. These qualities could lend themselves to trolling. Its certainly not a good way to debate is it?



ok, let's stop this.. i can now understand why people use meat alternatives. i won't use them as i'm not cooking any meat-requering dishes and anything that resembles real meat makes me sick (just like that, it really makes me wanna go puke). from the list of meat alternatives i eat only seitan (which i really don't consider a meat alternative even it propably can be used as such - i didn't try that). so you basically answered my question.

well if we are agreed that its not unethical and you are withdrawing that statement and sentiment then i have no argument at all and will gladly conclude this "debate".

[lo0m]

Well you haven't made it work or made it coherently relate and now just use a facetious response istead of either accepting it doesn't work or make a coherent argument for why it does.



Because of what you have written in this thread.



You do so indirectly by suggesting they are unethical.



But your language and diction suggest otherwise. You suggest your opinion as the actuality of being vegan. You say the point of vegan is to be against animal exploitation and go on to suggest that certain vegan food is indicative of exploitation when really it isn't you just have a bizarre and skewed perspective. You also tend to be blinkered to the reasoning that it isn't exploitive of animals. If however you are looking to retract your statement then please go ahead.






Nice to see you are being way more subjective. Also nice to see you are creating a divide and missing the point of meat alternatives and viewing them as an oppositie instead of an accompying factor. I mean what a ridiculous point...you can make more nice food with vegatables! Its ludicrous, your points are getting way off and missing the point that people want some kind of alternative with their meals. These alternatives are vegetable (or similar) based, but are used to substitute texture and consistancy that make certain meals work. Now people use nuts, tofu, gluten and all sorts to replace meat, what is wrong with catering to that market with other new products that people make or may not enjoy. It certainly is not ethically against being vegan.




Me personally, i am a great cook but there are bad cooks out there and you are happy for them to eat food that leaves them unsatisfied and could probably make them ditch the idea of being vegan. The alternatives ensure more of a growth in the number of vegan people. And of course those wonderfully ethical vegans with their new vegan products ethically out trump your daft issue with the ethics of a mushroom being shaped like a sausage.





Actually i care a great deal but you show a complete low opinion of how everyone else percieves things which is pretty disgusting. It like you are suggesting everyone else is purely idiotic, thats what you put forward. The point is more and more people are comming to realise that just because a food is shaped like a sausage it doesn't mean it is meat. More and more meat eaters are finding alternatives to meat that they actually find enjoyable. More and more resturaunts carry more and more options for non meat eaters that are just as popular with meat eaters. This is positive growth of the diet and positive exposure for many many more people, it is a great help in making non meat foods a plausable choice for many more people. Which of course aids in reducing the demand of actual meat products. Ethically, as a vegan, you should champion that even if you don't eat it yourself. Instead of chastising the idea of this food as unethical and remaining blinkered. I would love to see bars serve more range with non alcoholic drinks, whiskey i think would be a bad choice, but i would champion more options for non drinkers. I would champion a reduction in the focus on alcohol to the point that if someone saw me drinking something they wouldn't automatically assume its alcohol. I think that would be great and i would love peoples options to be broadened as many people drink alcohol in social situations as the options for anything else are dire. Pretty much like it was for vegans way back in the day.





But they are being used as replacements, you can't deny that. And so are other foods. I mean the point is you are using a food to act and behave like an egg. Taking soya to act and behave similar to another non vegan food is no different. eggs weren't designed to bind cakes neither were bananas, soya wasn't designed to be made into this that or the other and a cows ass wasn't designed to be made into mince for a chilli. However the ingenuity of man makes all those things possible, using that ingenuity to find an alternative to "exploiting" animals is not exploitive.



I just think you are so used to reacting to questions about veganism with stock responses you don't fully pay attention to what is being presented to you. I haven't asked what you eat or how you make thinhs without this or that. I have simply put forward other vegan alternatives that equate to the same thing but look decidedly more preposterous to be against. Since we are talking about how we find the others debating style, i have no issue with your personal choice on what you eat but find your suggestion that it is unethical illogical, unfounded, flawed and have found that your reasoning chastises without taking everything into account. I also found that your ability to discuss the matter highlights an inabilty to debate in a civil way, assumes the absoloute worst of others and generally leaves you responding without taking on board what is said.





Well my venture into veganism was purely one of health but that is really neither here nor there, the point is that its not unethical to eat a food stuff that serves as a substitute and it is actually a good thing for veganism.





You obviously didn't read what i wrote. The point is that if you use it to relax then it has a point...to help you relax, thus its not pointless. Its amazing how little time you put into reading what is written and how little thought you put into what you write.




Umm, yes you did. You say the point of being vegan is to deny all exploitation and argue that these vegan foods are exploitation thus they aren't fulfilling the vegan criteria. Are you now retracting this?





does this relate to how you are purposefully unrealistic?





Well it seems that when you rellax you lose the ability to debate at all.






I said like trolling...i mean you put forward the idea that you find the discussion pointless, you made flipant responses that shows you didn't really take the points on board and also mentioned how you were striving to be unrealistic. These qualities could lend themselves to trolling. Its certainly not a good way to debate is it?




well if we are agreed that its not unethical and you are withdrawing that statement and sentiment then i have no argument at all and will gladly conclude this "debate".

ok, i take back the statement that it is unethical even if .. hmm doesn't matter. anyway, it would great next time, if you could read between the lines and actually tried to understand and not make an opposition at all costs..
have a nice day..

[straightXed]

ok, i take back the statement that it is unethical even if .. hmm doesn't matter. anyway, it would great next time, if you could read between the lines and actually tried to understand and not make an opposition at all costs..
have a nice day..

It really isn't a case of reading between lines. You either adhere to the words and comments you made or you don't, if you are expecting people to forgo the sentiment of your statement in order to apply somekind of guesswork to establish what you actually mean then you don't really grasp the idea of debating. I understood what you said perfectly well but now i stand accused of not understanding the things you didn't actually say, that is a bit risiculous...if you wish to debate your unwritten agenda and sentiment then by all means go ahead but pointing fault at me for not "reading what was between the lines" is a poor show. I was far from an opposition at all costs i just opposed 2 very simple elements and once i raised these issues with you there was an apparent lack of you being prepared to address and discuss the reasoning i put forward. It seems to me that because i did make put forward opposing commentry you percieved that to mean i was opposing you at all costs and it has come to this point where you have withdrawn the statement but still give the impression you disagree and have a counter argument but aren't willing to put it forward. Seriously, if you have something that logically counters the reasoning i put forward i would love to hear it and debate it which has clearly been my intention from the outset. If you don't wish too discuss it then fine but making out you have a point but aren't willing to put it forward presents something that could easily be mistaken for rather childish behavour. Anyway, thank you, i will have a nice day, i always do. Hope you have a nice days also.