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lo0m
06-02-2009, 08:53 AM
are you sure you want to use the words logic and common sense when talking about religion?

yes, religion should be logical if God wants to obey it's teachings.. Buddhism is logical, Islam is logical, Maya's religion was logical, etc.. why not christianity?

xsecx
06-02-2009, 08:57 AM
yes, religion should be logical if God wants to obey it's teachings.. Buddhism is logical, Islam is logical, Maya's religion was logical, etc.. why not christianity?

the concept of a god is illogical. religion defies logic and relies of faith.

lo0m
06-03-2009, 01:50 AM
the concept of a god is illogical. religion defies logic and relies of faith.

well, that's your opinion so don't put it like it's truth.. for other may be absence of God illogical... if you'll look in the nature, you'll see patterns... everywhere.. and some people see in them a work of God... it's not like that faith is for idiots.. one of the greatest scientists are/were believers and i'm sure they approched faith from logical perspective... btw the existence of God cannot be refutated with logic proof.. that's a known thing.. and yes, i am talking about THE logic, as scientific discipline

anyway, i was talking about something else.. and that is inner logic... whenever you believe or don't believe in God and find the whole faith thing logical or not, you can study religion's inner logic,.. that is, if that particular faith has contradictions..

xsecx
06-03-2009, 05:54 AM
well, that's your opinion so don't put it like it's truth.. for other may be absence of God illogical... if you'll look in the nature, you'll see patterns... everywhere.. and some people see in them a work of God... it's not like that faith is for idiots.. one of the greatest scientists are/were believers and i'm sure they approched faith from logical perspective... btw the existence of God cannot be refutated with logic proof.. that's a known thing.. and yes, i am talking about THE logic, as scientific discipline

anyway, i was talking about something else.. and that is inner logic... whenever you believe or don't believe in God and find the whole faith thing logical or not, you can study religion's inner logic,.. that is, if that particular faith has contradictions..

most theologians will agree that religion isn't logical. It doesn't make any sense to assume that something that can't be seen or observed or proven is somehow responsible for something. There's a reason why currently there's an absence of believers in the scientific community today.

I would also say that I don't really know why you think that other faiths are somehow logical.

lo0m
06-03-2009, 06:37 AM
It doesn't make any sense to assume that something that can't be seen or observed or proven is somehow responsible for something. There's a reason why currently there's an absence of believers in the scientific community today.

hey, there are things that can't be observed and still are responsible for something. i'm not talking about religion, now.. i'm talking about known limits of our science.. few hundred years ago every scientists was absolutely convinced that Earth is flat and is centre of the Universe.. that was not because they were idiots, rather their scientific abundance and ability to measure and explore things around was very limited (and yes, it was partly influence of dogmatized Church). to think, that today's science is without limitation is.. well, limited :-) .. we know now more than ever in history that our knowledge has borders and there are propably things that we will never be able to explore enough... anyway, back to topic.. if it doesn't make sense to you,it's ok, but understand that different people see different things and there are very logical opinions that imply the existence of intelligent creator of some kind.. even albert einstein (even when he didn't believe in God as christians see him) said that he can't imagine that this universe was non-created. and we base much of today's science about reality on his thought.. and there are many more.. but as i said.. i wasn't talking about logic that implies or denies existence of god, i was talking about inner logic of religion...



I would also say that I don't really know why you think that other faiths are somehow logical.

look.. if you look deeper into christianity, you will see an amount of contradictions in the Bible. that's a fact.. different people will try to interpret those contradictions in different ways (on theology level).. and now i'm not even talking about those who are not honest and are just using religion for their own purposes... when you look into Buddhism, you won't find those contradictions.. yes, you will find different schools but these not contradict each other rather they concentrate on different aspect of the same faith/philosophy... if you look into Islam, you will certainly find misunderstandings and misuses of Islam (terrorists).. but if you'll read Quran than you'll find that it's rock solid.. there are no verses that directly contradict each other.. Bible contradicts itself even on those topics as Trinity or Jesus, which should be the bases of every believers faith and should be logically understood by anyone... that were the examples of inner logic..

hope i made myself more clear :-))

xsecx
06-03-2009, 08:26 AM
hey, there are things that can't be observed and still are responsible for something. i'm not talking about religion, now.. i'm talking about known limits of our science.. few hundred years ago every scientists was absolutely convinced that Earth is flat and is centre of the Universe.. that was not because they were idiots, rather their scientific abundance and ability to measure and explore things around was very limited (and yes, it was partly influence of dogmatized Church). to think, that today's science is without limitation is.. well, limited :-) .. we know now more than ever in history that our knowledge has borders and there are propably things that we will never be able to explore enough... anyway, back to topic.. if it doesn't make sense to you,it's ok, but understand that different people see different things and there are very logical opinions that imply the existence of intelligent creator of some kind.. even albert einstein (even when he didn't believe in God as christians see him) said that he can't imagine that this universe was non-created. and we base much of today's science about reality on his thought.. and there are many more.. but as i said.. i wasn't talking about logic that implies or denies existence of god, i was talking about inner logic of religion...



There's a direct correlation to the amount of education that someone has and their belief in a higher power. This is a studied and tracked fact. There are NO well respected scientists that believe in any specific religion's view of creation. Science is based on observable reactions and inferences. At no point is "because god must have done it" a valid scientific statement. The best that happens in that cause is that a cause is found and then the faithful try and attribute that cause to "god" because it's what they need for their world view to work, but that doesn't equate to logic, it's down to a matter of faith.



look.. if you look deeper into christianity, you will see an amount of contradictions in the Bible. that's a fact.. different people will try to interpret those contradictions in different ways (on theology level).. and now i'm not even talking about those who are not honest and are just using religion for their own purposes... when you look into Buddhism, you won't find those contradictions.. yes, you will find different schools but these not contradict each other rather they concentrate on different aspect of the same faith/philosophy... if you look into Islam, you will certainly find misunderstandings and misuses of Islam (terrorists).. but if you'll read Quran than you'll find that it's rock solid.. there are no verses that directly contradict each other.. Bible contradicts itself even on those topics as Trinity or Jesus, which should be the bases of every believers faith and should be logically understood by anyone... that were the examples of inner logic..

hope i made myself more clear :-))

buddhism isn't a religion in the sense of christianity and islam, so it doesn't really make sense to discuss it as such, since it doesn't really deal with gods or gods doing things. I don't really understand why you think the quran doesn't contradict itself?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

Seems to me that there are contradictions there too.

lo0m
06-03-2009, 09:08 AM
There's a direct correlation to the amount of education that someone has and their belief in a higher power. This is a studied and tracked fact. There are NO well respected scientists that believe in any specific religion's view of creation. Science is based on observable reactions and inferences. At no point is "because god must have done it" a valid scientific statement. The best that happens in that cause is that a cause is found and then the faithful try and attribute that cause to "god" because it's what they need for their world view to work, but that doesn't equate to logic, it's down to a matter of faith.



no well respected scientists? hmm, i named propably the most respected scientist of our modern history..and Darwin did believe... i know about Grygar (astronom) as the other .i don't know the names of others but i know there were even some paleontologist that wrote for National Geographic .. try google..
the scientist who believes in god does not use "because god must have done this" as a scientific statement. i didn't say that.




buddhism isn't a religion in the sense of christianity and islam, so it doesn't really make sense to discuss it as such, since it doesn't really deal with gods or gods doing things. I don't really understand why you think the quran doesn't contradict itself?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html

Seems to me that there are contradictions there too.

love this site :-) i would appreciate if the writers would use some modern translation of Quran, best by a muslim, not a revised version based on 19th century misconception of Islam, but yeah - i guess i won't get what i'm asking for..also.. putting verse without context is not a fair play either as EVERYONE can disvalue almost any book using this principle. i would recommend you a book called The Bible, The Quran, The Science .. i'm not saying that it is a perfect book with no flaws at all, but it gives good basic view of misunderstanding Islam in today's West (there's more in it but not related to this topic)...
but even if I'm totally full of shit (and that's maybe truth - i'm not playing a theologian here and the thing about religion is that we can never know), you clearly finally understood what is the inner logic of religion :-)) now we can go back to what we were talking in the first place...

xsecx
06-03-2009, 02:00 PM
no well respected scientists? hmm, i named propably the most respected scientist of our modern history..and Darwin did believe... i know about Grygar (astronom) as the other .i don't know the names of others but i know there were even some paleontologist that wrote for National Geographic .. try google..
the scientist who believes in god does not use "because god must have done this" as a scientific statement. i didn't say that.


Einstein was an agnostic at best and darwin didn't. It's a common misconception that happened after his death. You're the one talking about religion being used within science, so I'm sure you can google and come up with some names.




love this site :-) i would appreciate if the writers would use some modern translation of Quran, best by a muslim, not a revised version based on 19th century misconception of Islam, but yeah - i guess i won't get what i'm asking for..also.. putting verse without context is not a fair play either as EVERYONE can disvalue almost any book using this principle. i would recommend you a book called The Bible, The Quran, The Science .. i'm not saying that it is a perfect book with no flaws at all, but it gives good basic view of misunderstanding Islam in today's West (there's more in it but not related to this topic)...
but even if I'm totally full of shit (and that's maybe truth - i'm not playing a theologian here and the thing about religion is that we can never know), you clearly finally understood what is the inner logic of religion :-)) now we can go back to what we were talking in the first place...

Your statement was that the quran was rock solid and without contradiction. Are you now retracting that? Or are you going to try and blame the contradictions on translations? The faithful ignore the contradictions in religions or lie to themselves to say that they don't exist, that doesn't equate to logic, inner or outer. It is not logical to believe in god because religion, all religion, at it's core is illogical.

Veskou
06-03-2009, 06:36 PM
Thruth is religion has absolutely no logic at all. They say all written in the Bible is right simply because it's written and no one can judje it. For an example: Science has proven that masturbation is something normal and it's also healthy and we NEED do to it (unless ofcourse you have a normal sexual life), but the church says that it's a sin and it's wrong because that's what the Bible says and you cannot (under any circumstances) judje it!

lo0m
06-04-2009, 02:27 AM
Einstein was an agnostic at best and darwin didn't. It's a common misconception that happened after his death. You're the one talking about religion being used within science, so I'm sure you can google and come up with some names.


agnostic at best??
“The more I study science the more I believe in God.” Einstein

“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details.” Albert Einstein

“The deeper one penetrates into nature’s secrets, the greater becomes one’s respect for God.” Einstein

darwin didn't?

“Another source of conviction in the existence of God, connected with the reason and not with the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting, I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist.” darwin

In 1879, three years before his death Darwin wrote that he had “never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God.”

the others were Planck, Heisenberg, Townes - laser inventor (“I strongly believe in the existence of God, based on intuition, observations, logic, and also scientific knowledge.”), Shawlow, etc, Kant, Rosseau, Spinoza from philosophers...

but yes, only about 7% of todays scientists believe in God


Your statement was that the quran was rock solid and without contradiction. Are you now retracting that? Or are you going to try and blame the contradictions on translations? The faithful ignore the contradictions in religions or lie to themselves to say that they don't exist, that doesn't equate to logic, inner or outer. It is not logical to believe in god because religion, all religion, at it's core is illogical.

well, i tried to disqualify every major religion from age of about 16. with christianity it was an easy work, as it really breaks in your hands, judaism even more... i could not do this with Islam (not talking about sects as Sufis or Shiia), as the vast majority of "contradictions" were a) bad translation (and that's a huge part, really), b) taking verses out of context or c) total misunderstanding due the influence of western media... so when i said it's rock solid, i meant i found it rock solid and i've spent some time trying to prove it wrong... well, there are many other more qualified people to convince me if i'm wrong.. i'm waiting for it.. it just didn't come yet and that site didn't helped either :-)
and yes, there must be something in religion, that catches peoples hearts and brains (as i still believe there is inner logic in religion - and if not in the scriptures of various religions, than in its parctices) as only 16% of world population are agnostic/atheists.. don't try to tell me that more than 80% of people are with low level education (what a poor ranking of people capitalism developed), psychic disorder or low serotonin.. that is mathematicaly impossible..

but anyway... thank you for another fruitful debate.. i really like exchanging thoughts with you as you always have some answers and strong opinions :-) .. that's great as it forces me to think, investigate and reconsider my past thoughts... i will study more and some day come back with some others thoughts or to testimony that you were right...

if you have some other interesting sites about this, post them

xsecx
06-04-2009, 09:14 AM
agnostic at best??
“The more I study science the more I believe in God.” Einstein

“I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details.” Albert Einstein

“The deeper one penetrates into nature’s secrets, the greater becomes one’s respect for God.” Einstein


"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."




darwin didn't?

“Another source of conviction in the existence of God, connected with the reason and not with the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting, I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist.” darwin

In 1879, three years before his death Darwin wrote that he had “never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God.”



"I am aware that the assumed instinctive belief in God has been used by many persons as an argument for his existence. The idea of a universal and beneficent Creator does not seem to arise in the mind of man, until he has been elevated by long-continued culture."

"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic."

Trying to say that someone who claims to be agnostic is a believer in god, especially in the context of the abrahamic religions is pointless.



the others were Planck, Heisenberg, Townes - laser inventor (“I strongly believe in the existence of God, based on intuition, observations, logic, and also scientific knowledge.”), Shawlow, etc, Kant, Rosseau, Spinoza from philosophers...

but yes, only about 7% of todays scientists believe in God


So, then how can you think it's logical to believe in god when only 7% of scientists today do?



well, i tried to disqualify every major religion from age of about 16. with christianity it was an easy work, as it really breaks in your hands, judaism even more... i could not do this with Islam (not talking about sects as Sufis or Shiia), as the vast majority of "contradictions" were a) bad translation (and that's a huge part, really), b) taking verses out of context or c) total misunderstanding due the influence of western media... so when i said it's rock solid, i meant i found it rock solid and i've spent some time trying to prove it wrong... well, there are many other more qualified people to convince me if i'm wrong.. i'm waiting for it.. it just didn't come yet and that site didn't helped either :-)
and yes, there must be something in religion, that catches peoples hearts and brains (as i still believe there is inner logic in religion - and if not in the scriptures of various religions, than in its parctices) as only 16% of world population are agnostic/atheists.. don't try to tell me that more than 80% of people are with low level education (what a poor ranking of people capitalism developed), psychic disorder or low serotonin.. that is mathematicaly impossible..

but anyway... thank you for another fruitful debate.. i really like exchanging thoughts with you as you always have some answers and strong opinions :-) .. that's great as it forces me to think, investigate and reconsider my past thoughts... i will study more and some day come back with some others thoughts or to testimony that you were right...

if you have some other interesting sites about this, post them

blaming things on translation is convenient though. How do you know that people didn't see the contradictions and simply go and change the translations to deal with them, not at all effecting the source of the contradiction. That's the great thing about things that are supposedly religiously inspired but written by man, they're easily changed to fit whatever agenda the person providing it wants them to. "No the actual translation means this..."

16% now as opposed to what before? I'd also challenge those numbers as to whether or not it includes people who grew up in a religion but stopped worshipping and simply still use the term to identify themselves rather than an accurate representation of belief.

lo0m
06-04-2009, 01:16 PM
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."





"I am aware that the assumed instinctive belief in God has been used by many persons as an argument for his existence. The idea of a universal and beneficent Creator does not seem to arise in the mind of man, until he has been elevated by long-continued culture."

"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic."

Trying to say that someone who claims to be agnostic is a believer in god, especially in the context of the abrahamic religions is pointless.



So, then how can you think it's logical to believe in god when only 7% of scientists today do?



blaming things on translation is convenient though. How do you know that people didn't see the contradictions and simply go and change the translations to deal with them, not at all effecting the source of the contradiction. That's the great thing about things that are supposedly religiously inspired but written by man, they're easily changed to fit whatever agenda the person providing it wants them to. "No the actual translation means this..."

16% now as opposed to what before? I'd also challenge those numbers as to whether or not it includes people who grew up in a religion but stopped worshipping and simply still use the term to identify themselves rather than an accurate representation of belief.

* yes, those quotes clearly contradict each other.. i put there two for both Einstein and Darwin that were recorder not long before their deaths, but i guess it deserves a deeper study

* 7% is still different from "not one".. anyway.. the vast majority of economs today claim that liberalism is the best economic system and still im not convinced and try to have my own opinion

* i think you misunderstood me with the problem with translations.. i didnt compare it to another English translation.. i took these verses and with some luck tried to read them and analyze them in Arabic - with secular dictionaries.. original Quran remains unchanged from the time it was written (or min. from 100 years later as that is the oldest Quran in Turkey old)

* you are right with those "false believers"/exbelievers.. but even when the percent of the nonbelievers would be 3 times higher it still less than a half of world population..

thx again for interesting thoughts

xsecx
06-04-2009, 01:26 PM
* 7% is still different from "not one".. anyway.. the vast majority of economs today claim that liberalism is the best economic system and still im not convinced and try to have my own opinion


93% of all scientists is a huge number. 7% might as well be not one since chances are they aren't prominent and aren't able to convince others.



* i think you misunderstood me with the problem with translations.. i didnt compare it to another English translation.. i took these verses and with some luck tried to read them and analyze them in Arabic - with secular dictionaries.. original Quran remains unchanged from the time it was written (or min. from 100 years later as that is the oldest Quran in Turkey old)

Then your way is still plagued with the same issues. If you take any language and simply use a translation dictionary you loose all sense of context and nuance. I honestly don't understand how you can find issues with the bible but not the quran since from my perspective they have the same problems.




* you are right with those "false believers"/exbelievers.. but even when the percent of the nonbelievers would be 3 times higher it still less than a half of world population..


Yes, and it's a number that is increasing year over year. Religion holds a completely different place in the world today then it did even 100 years ago. The trend is definitely towards the loss of religion, not the other way around.

lo0m
06-05-2009, 01:43 AM
93% of all scientists is a huge number. 7% might as well be not one since chances are they aren't prominent and aren't able to convince others.

this is simply a speculation.. oh, just to say, i didn't count the agnostics or "im not sure" as they are not believers.. those were about 20%


Then your way is still plagued with the same issues. If you take any language and simply use a translation dictionary you loose all sense of context and nuance. I honestly don't understand how you can find issues with the bible but not the quran since from my perspective they have the same problems.

no, that's not true.. if i'll take a german text, german dictionary and german (dunno how's this book called.. conversation book?) and combine it with a power of internet i can propably clearly translate even highly technical texts.. bible and quran don't have the same problems.. they may share some little which i don't know about, but their problem and problem with their followers is totally different



Yes, and it's a number that is increasing year over year. Religion holds a completely different place in the world today then it did even 100 years ago. The trend is definitely towards the loss of religion, not the other way around.

yes, the trend is towards the loss of religion, but hey - you know that it doesn't mean anything at all.. there are so many factors.. western media, globalization, socioeconomic changes, influence of pure materialist society, lower morals, etc... i'm not opposing the fact btw, i'm just saying that it is not a matter of logic.. it's a matter of influences on societies and individuals..

xsecx
06-05-2009, 09:12 AM
this is simply a speculation.. oh, just to say, i didn't count the agnostics or "im not sure" as they are not believers.. those were about 20%


Then you're still talking about at most 73% which is still an overwhelming majority.



no, that's not true.. if i'll take a german text, german dictionary and german (dunno how's this book called.. conversation book?) and combine it with a power of internet i can propably clearly translate even highly technical texts.. bible and quran don't have the same problems.. they may share some little which i don't know about, but their problem and problem with their followers is totally different


And you'll still do a far shittier job than someone who is fluent in both languages and understands the uniqueness of both. Translation of texts, and doing it well, it something far harder than you seem to think it is. How are their problems totally different? You have discrepancies in both. You have inconsistencies in both. And you have massively outdated concepts in both.




yes, the trend is towards the loss of religion, but hey - you know that it doesn't mean anything at all.. there are so many factors.. western media, globalization, socioeconomic changes, influence of pure materialist society, lower morals, etc... i'm not opposing the fact btw, i'm just saying that it is not a matter of logic.. it's a matter of influences on societies and individuals..

So you think that people no longer believing in god has nothing to do with logic? That the things you list don't expose them to experiences which shape how they view things and how they logically view the world?

XNightTerrorX
06-15-2009, 11:26 AM
people believe in god because they A. can't deal with their own mortality B. need meaning or purpose in their life or C. need an explanation for everything,but the fact is humans will never be omnipotent beings...there will always be life's mystery s... that's just how i feel about it... i'm sure there are more personal reasons,but I find that to be the three main reasons.

MrMcKeigue
07-13-2009, 12:09 AM
people believe in god because they A. can't deal with their own mortality B. need meaning or purpose in their life or C. need an explanation for everything,but the fact is humans will never be omnipotent beings...there will always be life's mystery s... that's just how i feel about it... i'm sure there are more personal reasons,but I find that to be the three main reasons.

Honestly, the reason I believe in God is because I have luck when I have faith. Nothing more.

straightXed
07-13-2009, 01:34 PM
Honestly, the reason I believe in God is because I have luck when I have faith. Nothing more.

I have faith but i don't believe in god, i can be quite lucky also.

MrMcKeigue
07-13-2009, 08:19 PM
I have faith but i don't believe in god, i can be quite lucky also.

I meant religious faith. Faith in general is a good thing for anyone to have.

straightXed
07-14-2009, 10:05 AM
I meant religious faith. Faith in general is a good thing for anyone to have.

Faith is faith though, its still a belief with no proof. Yours is specific to the unfounded belief that there is a god, mine might be just as out there but less orchestrated.

Faith can be good and bad really, misplaced confidence can be dangerous.