PDA

View Full Version : so caffeine isn't a drug?



xsecx
08-10-2008, 06:38 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/17/earlyshow/health/main4267600.shtml

xdoylex
08-12-2008, 12:00 PM
Good article. Locally it seems to be a noticeable problem too. I live in a college town, so that probably plays into quite a bit, seeing as how a large percentage of the population is youth.

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 10:13 AM
I think to be honest, there are far more serious dangers than caffeine.

The way kids run around these days with knives and that for one.

All things are about moderation, and the fact that caffeine has been in drinks for so long, and has never lead to he serious problems that other drugs have can only be a sign that it is not a serious thing.

I'm sure if one was to eat or drink enough of anything it would be dangerous.

I'm completely alcohol, drug and tobacco free, but you can't tell me I'm not allowed to drink tea... Lol - I'm English FFS :P

xsecx
08-15-2008, 10:44 AM
I think to be honest, there are far more serious dangers than caffeine.

The way kids run around these days with knives and that for one.

All things are about moderation, and the fact that caffeine has been in drinks for so long, and has never lead to he serious problems that other drugs have can only be a sign that it is not a serious thing.

I'm sure if one was to eat or drink enough of anything it would be dangerous.

I'm completely alcohol, drug and tobacco free, but you can't tell me I'm not allowed to drink tea... Lol - I'm English FFS :P

so caffeine isn't a drug, and isn't addictive? If all things are about moderation then why don't you drink alcohol moderately? Or consume marijuana moderately?

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 10:52 AM
so caffeine isn't a drug, and isn't addictive? If all things are about moderation then why don't you drink alcohol moderately? Or consume marijuana moderately?

Because by that reasoning chocolate is a drug, sugar too.

Trust me, I'm not posting that just to defend my drinking of tea (coffee is yuk), and I'm not just trying to be an ass, but I really think that caffeine is not as serious as you seem to think, and I feel that I must return you picky-ness with some picky-ness of my own.

Think about it - chocolate causes a release of the same chemicals that are present after intercourse, and eating too much chocolate has very serious and much more common place side effects than those of caffeine - obesity and heart disease happen a lot more than caffeine overdoses.

Sugar could also be considered addictive, and again, an over use of sugar could lead to much more common place and serious problems, like diabetes.

I'm not just trying to cause trouble, but I think you should be careful about saying "You're not Straight-Edge if you..." and then saying something that in general has minimal negative effects.

xsecx
08-15-2008, 10:59 AM
Because by that reasoning chocolate is a drug, sugar too.

Trust me, I'm not posting that just to defend my drinking of tea (coffee is yuk), and I'm not just trying to be an ass, but I really think that caffeine is not as serious as you seem to think, and I feel that I must return you picky-ness with some picky-ness of my own.

Think about it - chocolate causes a release of the same chemicals that are present after intercourse, and eating too much chocolate has very serious and much more common place side effects than those of caffeine - obesity and heart disease happen a lot more than caffeine overdoses.

Sugar could also be considered addictive, and again, an over use of sugar could lead to much more common place and serious problems, like diabetes.

I'm not just trying to cause trouble, but I think you should be careful about saying "You're not Straight-Edge if you..." and then saying something that in general has minimal negative effects.

no, chocolate's a food, sugar too. they aren't drugs. Chocolate however does contain caffeine and theobromine, however not in great amounts based how much and what you're eating, but trying to compare it to the caffeine amount in tea, coffee or soda isn't apples to apples. no matter how you try and justify it, caffeine is a drug.

I didn't say it was serious. I posted an article that talks about the health effects of caffeine consumption. What I have and will say is that it is completely inconsistent to claim to be drug free and then pick and choose what drugs count and which ones don't simply based on social acceptance. i personally think that marijuana and Psilocybin mushrooms are both "less serious" than caffeine but I wouldn't encourage the usage of any of the 3 because it's inconsistent on my belief that the use of any drug for recreational purposes is wrong.

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 11:05 AM
...because it's inconsistent on my belief that the use of any drug for recreational purposes is wrong.

Well then we have a difference of opinion, for me a choice of lifestyle is pointless if it doesn't help you. Using alcohol, taking drugs and smoking all cause long-term suffering, as does promiscuity. Calling something 'right' or 'wrong' for me is not as useful as saying 'helpful and 'unhelpful'.

If one is judgemental then one is not acting with altruism and kindness, and are also not acting with the idea of helping in mind. For me, these attitudes, as well as the various abstinences that I do are part of trying to lead the happiest lifestyle I can. In fact I would say that being judgemental it self is an unhelpful act, as looking outward can prevent one from looking inward.

If you don't want to drink anything with caffeine in, then that's fine, if it ultimately does not cause any suffering; and of course I can't see how it would cause suffering.

Similarly, me drinking my favourite flavour of Twinings tea is fine, since it does not cause me suffering; the act is a neutral act, since I am not drinking tea for the caffeine, the tea has caffeine in it 'cos that's how its made (why?). If one is smoking weed at all then they are doing it for unhelpful purposes for example escapism maybe, and this is unhelpful and won't ultimately lead to their happiness.

xsecx
08-15-2008, 11:11 AM
Well then we have a difference of opinion, for me a choice of lifestyle is pointless if it doesn't help you. Using alcohol, taking drugs and smoking all cause long-term suffering, as does promiscuity. Calling something 'right' or 'wrong' for me is not as useful as saying 'helpful and 'unhelpful'.


actually they don't. I'm sure you can point to lots of people in your life who had used alcohol and drugs through out their lives with absolutely no negative effects. But I do find it interesting that you ignored the rest of the post and have decided to try and shift the focus.
How does calling a behavior wrong any different than calling it helpful or unhelpful? To bring it back to point, are you going to try and argue that the consumption of caffeine is somehow helpful, when any benefits you can get from the beverages can be gotten via other means?



If one is judgemental then one is not acting with altruism and kindness, and are also not acting with the idea of helping in mind. For me, these attitudes, as well as the various abstinences that I do are part of trying to lead the happiest lifestyle I can.

By calling yourself straight edge, you are, whether you like it or not, making a statement of judgment against the use of drugs and alcohol. I can think someone is wrong for doing something and still help them rehabilitate. I don't have to condone the actions of the world and it doesn't have any effect on kindness.

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 11:15 AM
Yeah, I apologise for that... clicked 'Post' without finishing the post for some reason...

However, there are no situations where one can use drugs or alcohol without ultimately cause oneself suffering. It may be kept very internal, or even hidden from the person themselves, but the suffering is still there.

Remember, if one goes into an action with altruistic intentions then one can always be confident of those actions.

Personally I feel I am NOT judging people who drink, I am just saying that it would be better for them if they didn't. And like it or not, I'm gonna be drinking tea without worrying about you.

I joined this forum presuming it would be fairly friendly, but if even the administrator is a little hostile, and I fear NOT trying to help, I am concerned that I was very much mistaken.

http://sxe.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89743

This guy ^ said it better than I did I think.

xsecx
08-15-2008, 12:39 PM
Yeah, I apologise for that... clicked 'Post' without finishing the post for some reason...

However, there are no situations where one can use drugs or alcohol without ultimately cause oneself suffering. It may be kept very internal, or even hidden from the person themselves, but the suffering is still there.


This is a completely bullshit and unfounded statement. What are you basing this belief on?



Remember, if one goes into an action with altruistic intentions then one can always be confident of those actions.

Personally I feel I am NOT judging people who drink, I am just saying that it would be better for them if they didn't. And like it or not, I'm gonna be drinking tea without worrying about you.


You just said that people were harming themselves, so you actually are judging their behavior. I don't really care whether you drink tea or not, I just think you're being hypocritical.



I joined this forum presuming it would be fairly friendly, but if even the administrator is a little hostile, and I fear NOT trying to help, I am concerned that I was very much mistaken.


The only hostility seems to be coming from you, so I'm not really sure why you think I'm being unfriendly, simply by pointing out inconsistencies in your statements. I mean hell you even added a passive/aggressive signature.



http://sxe.com/forums/showpost.php?p=89743

This guy ^ said it better than I did I think.


so I guess you missed the rest of the conversation that went into the details about how it's sometimes important to be consistent in ones thoughts and actions.

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 01:55 PM
I love you all, I really do, and I mean that without any hint of irony or disrespect.

I feel, however that our pre-suppositional bases are too different for this conversation to be a productive one.

May we speak again when we are both more enlightened.

Peace and Love FTW.

xsecx
08-15-2008, 01:57 PM
I love you all, I really do, and I mean that without any hint of irony or disrespect.

I feel, however that our pre-suppositional bases are too different for this conversation to be a productive one.

May we speak again when we are both more enlightened.

Peace and Love FTW.

well. conversations only work when you actually engage in them. so any time you want to come back and actually discuss your statements, everything will still be here.

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 02:11 PM
Hmm...I guess all of that arguing nonsense could have been prevented by me simply posting "Abstaining from Caffeine is not part of ME being Straight Edge, but I don't mind what other people do." in the first place. St00pid me.

*hugs xSecx* (In a manly way, of course)

Lol. Cancel red alert Mr. Worf; Shields Down. (yes I AM a nerd :P)

straightXed
08-15-2008, 02:13 PM
However, there are no situations where one can use drugs or alcohol without ultimately cause oneself suffering. It may be kept very internal, or even hidden from the person themselves, but the suffering is still there.



Hang on, so why is the suffering caused by caffiene ok and suffering from other drugs, no matter how minimal, not ok?

xsecx
08-15-2008, 02:14 PM
Hmm...I guess all of that arguing nonsense could have been prevented by me simply posting "Abstaining from Caffeine is not part of ME being Straight Edge, but I don't mind what other people do." in the first place. St00pid me.

*hugs xSecx* (In a manly way, of course)

Lol. Cancel red alert Mr. Worf; Shields Down. (yes I AM a nerd :P)

well no, because your views are still inconsistent. you can't say you're against drug use, and then talk about how you enjoy using a drug and it all gets back to the original point. Why is caffeine ok, but alcohol or marijuana isn't? What other drugs would be ok then? And we're back to the original point where I don't think you've actually thought about what's been said, and I seriously don't think you've considered what caffeine is.

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 02:36 PM
well no, because your views are still inconsistent. you can't say you're against drug use, and then talk about how you enjoy using a drug and it all gets back to the original point. Why is caffeine ok, but alcohol or marijuana isn't? What other drugs would be ok then?Hey, I was trying to back down from a silly internet argument then, didn't you like my cyber-hug? *sobs hysterically*

Anyway, I guess that in my opinion, legal ones like paracetamol and that are ok, I guess, but only when actually, medically needed, 'cos obviously these things can be abused too.

In fact I'm not even sure I'm against drug use as such, I just think that it is not a good idea, if other people wanna do it, I think they are making a huge mistake but it's their choice, they are still a fellow human being with thoughts and feelings, and I try to still love and respect them.

I think that in taking caffeine is okay, but only if you're in taking it because food / drink you are eating / drinking happens to have it in. Like if you are having your 30th espresso of the day just because "you need some coffee NOW", then I think caffeine is a problem, and I don't think people should use ProPlus to keep them awake and shiz because its unhealthy, but if I am in taking caffeine simply because my favourite drink happens to have caffeine in, then the caffeine is not so much of a problem for me because I am not using it as such, its just sort of, there. If you know what I mean...

*is bad at explaining*
*also is struggling not to type 'Caffine' instead of 'Caffeine'*

And, and this is where our presuppositions are diametrically opposed; I'm not sure, that caffeine is a drug in the same sense that weed or crack are. Because weed and crack can cause a mental and chemical dependance, causing much more definite physiological harm, and will prevent oneself from developing spiritually. I read an article that said that while caffeine causes short term increased heart rate, and increases energy levels on the short term, there is no definite evidence that it definitely does long term harm, and that it may even reduce the risk of cancer.

That is why you think I am being hypocritical and I do not in a nutshell; I do not believe caffeine is a 'drug' in the same way that weed and crack are. Like its still technically a drug, but I'm damned if I'm going to abstain from antibiotics next time the doctor says I need them and they're technically a drug as well.

I dunno, that's only my opinion, you can abstain from caffeine if you want to and I won't think any less or more of you, but please do not think less of me because my opinion differs from yours. [/monster post]

xsecx
08-15-2008, 02:47 PM
Hey, I was trying to back down from a silly internet argument then, didn't you like my cyber-hug? *sobs hysterically*

Anyway, I guess that in my opinion, legal ones like paracetamol and that are ok, I guess, but only when actually, medically needed, 'cos obviously these things can be abused too.

In fact I'm not even sure I'm against drug use as such, I just think that it is not a good idea, if other people wanna do it, I think they are making a huge mistake but it's their choice, they are still a fellow human being with thoughts and feelings, and I try to still love and respect them.

I think that in taking caffeine is okay, but only if you're in taking it because food / drink you are eating / drinking happens to have it in. Like if you are having your 30th espresso of the day just because "you need some coffee NOW", then I think caffeine is a problem, and I don't think people should use ProPlus to keep them awake and shiz because its unhealthy, but if I am in taking caffeine simply because my favourite drink happens to have caffeine in, then the caffeine is not so much of a problem for me because I am not using it as such, its just sort of, there. If you know what I mean...

*is bad at explaining*
*also is struggling not to type 'Caffine' instead of 'Caffeine'*

And, and this is where our presuppositions are diametrically opposed; I'm not sure, that caffeine is a drug in the same sense that weed or crack are. Because weed and crack can cause a mental and chemical dependance, causing much more definite physiological harm, and will prevent oneself from developing spiritually. I read an article that said that while caffeine causes short term increased heart rate, and increases energy levels on the short term, there is no definite evidence that it definitely does long term harm, and that it may even reduce the risk of cancer.

That is why you think I am being hypocritical and I do not in a nutshell; I do not believe caffeine is a 'drug' in the same way that weed and crack are. Like its still technically a drug, but I'm damned if I'm going to abstain from antibiotics next time the doctor says I need them and they're technically a drug as well.

I dunno, that's only my opinion, you can abstain from caffeine if you want to and I won't think any less or more of you, but please do not think less of me because my opinion differs from yours. [/monster post]

a few of things.
1. taking a drug recreationally is totally different from taking a drug medicinally.
2. did you actually read the article that I originally posted?
3. If you can't drink decaf tea, then I have to seriously worry about you.
4. I think that because you've been socialized to believe that caffeine is harmless that you think it is, not because it actually is or isn't. I think you should read the following. http://www.caffeinedependence.org/caffeine_dependence.html
5. So if my favorite drink is beer, I can drink guiness and it's still edge right?

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 02:57 PM
a few of things.
1. taking a drug recreationally is totally different from taking a drug medicinally.

yeah i know, but i thought you meant ALL drugs. :)

2. did you actually read the article that I originally posted?
yes

3. If you can't drink decaf tea, then I have to seriously worry about you.
thanks for your concern, and there are types of decaf tea, but twinings do not make any at all, and I assure you, other brands of tea taste much, much worse, caf or de-caf. (that's why twinings is twice the price :( )

4. I think that because you've been socialized to believe that caffeine is harmless that you think it is, not because it actually is or isn't. I think you should read the following. http://www.caffeinedependence.org/caffeine_dependence.html
i think it is harmless because in my experience it IS harmless, even if there are slight negative effects, abstaining from caffeine is not one of my priorities.

5. So if my favorite drink is beer, I can drink guiness and it's still edge right?
Alcohol is completely different to caffeine, people don't drink for the drink, they drink to get drunk, alcohol changes ones ability to have self control, and changes the way a person acts, usually making them unpleasant. Alcohol is one of society's menaces, whereas caffeine isn't, in my opinion.

*sigh* can you not accept that my opinion is different to yours? I am basically an atheist, but I can get on fine with people who a religious because I respect their right to have a different opinion to mine... I respect that you abstain from caffeine, well done for you, you should be proud, but I do not feel that this is a necessary step for me, I just don't see it as the problem you see it as.

*tentatively holds his arms out, awaiting a reply cyber-hug*

straightXed
08-15-2008, 03:00 PM
Hey, I was trying to back down from a silly internet argument then, didn't you like my cyber-hug? *sobs hysterically*

Anyway, I guess that in my opinion, legal ones like paracetamol and that are ok, I guess, but only when actually, medically needed, 'cos obviously these things can be abused too.

In fact I'm not even sure I'm against drug use as such, I just think that it is not a good idea, if other people wanna do it, I think they are making a huge mistake but it's their choice, they are still a fellow human being with thoughts and feelings, and I try to still love and respect them.

I think that in taking caffeine is okay, but only if you're in taking it because food / drink you are eating / drinking happens to have it in. Like if you are having your 30th espresso of the day just because "you need some coffee NOW", then I think caffeine is a problem, and I don't think people should use ProPlus to keep them awake and shiz because its unhealthy, but if I am in taking caffeine simply because my favourite drink happens to have caffeine in, then the caffeine is not so much of a problem for me because I am not using it as such, its just sort of, there. If you know what I mean...

*is bad at explaining*
*also is struggling not to type 'Caffine' instead of 'Caffeine'*

And, and this is where our presuppositions are diametrically opposed; I'm not sure, that caffeine is a drug in the same sense that weed or crack are. Because weed and crack can cause a mental and chemical dependance, causing much more definite physiological harm, and will prevent oneself from developing spiritually. I read an article that said that while caffeine causes short term increased heart rate, and increases energy levels on the short term, there is no definite evidence that it definitely does long term harm, and that it may even reduce the risk of cancer.

That is why you think I am being hypocritical and I do not in a nutshell; I do not believe caffeine is a 'drug' in the same way that weed and crack are. Like its still technically a drug, but I'm damned if I'm going to abstain from antibiotics next time the doctor says I need them and they're technically a drug as well.

I dunno, that's only my opinion, you can abstain from caffeine if you want to and I won't think any less or more of you, but please do not think less of me because my opinion differs from yours. [/monster post]

I'm confused, when did medicinal drugs come into question? When did cancer become a drug? I'm trying to follow this but now you are saying you don't think you are against drug use but think its a mistake to do it? Caffiene is ok if its in food or drink...so alcohol is ok too right? Or even hash cakes!? You aren't sure that caffiene is a drug??? It is a drug, i'm not and is more similar to crack than marijuana is to crack...i'm struggling to understand why you think it isn't? And caffiene can and does develop dependance. I've read articles about the benifits of all drugs just as you read an article about the benefits of caffiene but surely that doesn't change the actuallity of the fact it is a drug, a stimulant, that carries the negative side effects of a stimulant. Sure its not the most powerful stimulant but its continual daily useage can have powerful detrimental effects by volume and longevity of use - i mean a small dose of other drugs doesn't stop them being drugs. But the main point is if you say you are against drugs then why not this one and why are you against others? Whats the criteria for abstaining and why doesn't it extend to the recreational use of caffiene? I know you have already been asked that but i'm still not sure you have answered it and started talking about medicine and health benefits of caffiene instead. I'm just wondering how you arrive at the opinion you hold rather than being judgemental on you holding it...personally i don't think less of you i just think your reasoning is really illogical.

xsecx
08-15-2008, 03:12 PM
yeah i know, but i thought you meant ALL drugs. :)

Then you missed previous posts where all that's been discussed has been recreational use.



yes

don't think you did. just like I don't think you looked at the link either.



thanks for your concern, and there are types of decaf tea, but twinings do not make any at all, and I assure you, other brands of tea taste much, much worse, caf or de-caf. (that's why twinings is twice the price :( )

So basically your addiction prevents you from doing anything else that would be more inline with your actual beliefs.



i think it is harmless because in my experience it IS harmless, aeven if there are slight negative effects, abstaining from caffeine is not one of my priorities.


yeah, and you think a beer a night or a joint a week somehow is harmless.



Alcohol is completely different to caffeine, people don't drink for the drink, they drink to get drunk, alcohol changes ones ability to have self control, and changes the way a person acts, usually making them unpleasant. Alcohol is one of society's menaces, whereas caffeine isn't, in my opinion.


Your world view is seriously limited if you think this is the case. This may be true for teenagers, but not for the majority of the world. There are plenty of people who drink moderately and do so on regular basis. Like I said before this is based on your socialization and not any facts or even looking at it objectively.



*sigh* can you not accept that my opinion is different to yours? I am basically an atheist, but I can get on fine with people who a religious because I respect their right to have a different opinion to mine... I respect that you abstain from caffeine, well done for you, you should be proud, but I do not feel that this is a necessary step for me, I just don't see it as the problem you see it as.

*tentatively holds his arms out, awaiting a reply cyber-hug*

If you're fine with being a hypocrite, that's your deal. Your views are uneducated and inconsistent and don't really appear to be based on anything real other than your belief that all alcohol is bad, but that caffeine is good, but only sometimes, but only because you like tea and no real logical reason.

straightXed
08-15-2008, 03:15 PM
thanks for your concern, and there are types of decaf tea, but twinings do not make any at all, and I assure you, other brands of tea taste much, much worse, caf or de-caf. (that's why twinings is twice the price :( )

Twinnings do a fair amount of decaffinated products...i have some myself.


i think it is harmless because in my experience it IS harmless, even if there are slight negative effects, abstaining from caffeine is not one of my priorities.

So abstaining from drugs is not your priority. Thinking something is harmless doesn't make it so, most drug users think their drug is relatively harmless.


Alcohol is completely different to caffeine, people don't drink for the drink, they drink to get drunk, alcohol changes ones ability to have self control, and changes the way a person acts, usually making them unpleasant. Alcohol is one of society's menaces, whereas caffeine isn't, in my opinion.

This is the same for caffiene, many people take caffiene for its stimulant properties and our countries highway code even suggest its use for those benefits to stay alert on long drives where drowsiness can be an issue, i personally believe that to be a rather irresponsible thing to suggest. And on the flip side many people drink alcohol for its flavour, wine connoisseurs obviously and there are many events worldwide celebrating alcoholic drinks for its flavour. A lot of people i know via my brother are big fans of real ale and the unique flavours from a lot of these more high quality alcoholic beverages, drinking isn't just people who go down town on a friday and down 12 pints of carlsberg.

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 03:18 PM
I'm confused, when did medicinal drugs come into question? When did cancer become a drug? yeah what happened there was I clicked 'post' before i proof-read. cos im an idiot.

In answer to your other points, I'll put it like this, and then for the time being I'm done explaining myself, Im gonna go watch Star Trek or something for a bit.

When I go out with my friends (all of whom aren't straight-Edge), I see them drinking alcohol, and then I see them change, the get silly, less coordinated, they make fools of themselves, and they endanger themselves. They think they are having a good time, and call me an idiot, but it breaks my heart. It actually makes my eyes water a little.

Some of my other friends smoke weed, and I see the way they get completely out of it, they just stare, or they start laughing stupidly at nothing, and again, I feel so upset, its like I'm so scared of them hurting themselves or endangering themselves, and there's nothing I can do.

A lot of my friends and acquaintances smoke, and when I tell them about the risks of cancer and such they just say "oh, I'm addicted". Like that makes it okay?

There was a girl I knew who would have a lot of casual 'relationships' and then would cry to me saying no-one loved her.

When I see these things I think I am helpless, if I could take all their pain and addictions away from them I would do, I would smoke all the weed in the world if it would stop everyone else from mindlessly smoking their lives away, I can't tell you how upset it makes me, my eyes are actually watering now, I can barely see the keyboard...

I don't want to be that person, I don't want to throw my mind away like so many other people - that is why I am straight-edge.

Caffeine does not have this effect on people, not that I can see, I don't see people drink coffee and then see them change to the point where I feel like crying. I guess that's why I don't think caffeine is such a problem.

EDIT:- I DID look at both the links. And I looked on the Twinings website, they do Breakfast and Everyday De-caf, but not Assam.. The swines.

xsecx
08-15-2008, 03:19 PM
Caffeine does not have this effect on people, not that I can see, I don't see people drink coffee and then see them change to the point where I feel like crying. I guess that's why I don't think caffeine is such a problem.

how often do you think you actually see people free from caffeine use?

straightXed
08-15-2008, 03:46 PM
yeah what happened there was I clicked 'post' before i proof-read. cos im an idiot.

In answer to your other points, I'll put it like this, and then for the time being I'm done explaining myself, Im gonna go watch Star Trek or something for a bit.

When I go out with my friends (all of whom aren't straight-Edge), I see them drinking alcohol, and then I see them change, the get silly, less coordinated, they make fools of themselves, and they endanger themselves. They think they are having a good time, and call me an idiot, but it breaks my heart. It actually makes my eyes water a little.

Some of my other friends smoke weed, and I see the way they get completely out of it, they just stare, or they start laughing stupidly at nothing, and again, I feel so upset, its like I'm so scared of them hurting themselves or endangering themselves, and there's nothing I can do.

A lot of my friends and acquaintances smoke, and when I tell them about the risks of cancer and such they just say "oh, I'm addicted". Like that makes it okay?

There was a girl I knew who would have a lot of casual 'relationships' and then would cry to me saying no-one loved her.

When I see these things I think I am helpless, if I could take all their pain and addictions away from them I would do, I would smoke all the weed in the world if it would stop everyone else from mindlessly smoking their lives away, I can't tell you how upset it makes me, my eyes are actually watering now, I can barely see the keyboard...

I don't want to be that person, I don't want to throw my mind away like so many other people - that is why I am straight-edge.

Caffeine does not have this effect on people, not that I can see, I don't see people drink coffee and then see them change to the point where I feel like crying. I guess that's why I don't think caffeine is such a problem.

This doesn't really address anything i posted at all and we most certainly are not discussing relationships. You still fail to give a cohesive and logical reason as to why caffiene is ok, i mean just because your friends drink a lot doesn't actually make that the result of all alcohol consumption. Would you have a single glass of wine with your dinner, it won't cause the effects that drive you away from its use, and a small amount of marijuana occasionally? Is that ok too? Its not going to give the effects you speak of so why be against that? There really is no consistancy in your standpoint, if you are all about moderate consumption then great, but its not what straightedge is about. It seems like you are not condoning moderate usage of anything other than a drug you actually use which is hipocritical. I am not sure why you didn't address the points i raised in my post but the fact you didn't makes it hard to see any logical reasoning on your standpoint.


EDIT:- I DID look at both the links. And I looked on the Twinings website, they do Breakfast and Everyday De-caf, but not Assam.. The swines.

And alcohol free beer has a smaller range too, i guess thats a good reason to still drink beer or wine etc?

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 04:29 PM
Advice...

One of the other reasons I started to consider myself Edge is that for a while now I have been thinking about the way I think act and how that affects my life. This is in part due to my recent reading of a lot about Buddhism and in general things written by HH the Dalai Lama. Part of that leads me to think I should probably no-longer eat meat, I have felt guilty about that for a while, but I dismissed those feelings as stupid... I dunno anyway I would be very grateful for your advice...

Do you guys think it would help me to get De-Caf tea, like aside from your point of view of whether or not you think I am truly Edge or not, tea is the only thing I drink with caffeine in, do you guys think it would help me like in my everyday life to get rid of it? I guess since I've been drinking tea since I was like 10 I must have had caffeine in my system for a very long time, but I am always open to suggestions about how I could improve my life, has abstinence from caffeine helped any of you guys? I have never really considered it has having a negative effect, but yeah, do you guys think I should give it up?

straightXed
08-15-2008, 05:36 PM
Advice...

One of the other reasons I started to consider myself Edge is that for a while now I have been thinking about the way I think act and how that affects my life. This is in part due to my recent reading of a lot about Buddhism and in general things written by HH the Dalai Lama. Part of that leads me to think I should probably no-longer eat meat, I have felt guilty about that for a while, but I dismissed those feelings as stupid... I dunno anyway I would be very grateful for your advice...

Do you guys think it would help me to get De-Caf tea, like aside from your point of view of whether or not you think I am truly Edge or not, tea is the only thing I drink with caffeine in, do you guys think it would help me like in my everyday life to get rid of it? I guess since I've been drinking tea since I was like 10 I must have had caffeine in my system for a very long time, but I am always open to suggestions about how I could improve my life, has abstinence from caffeine helped any of you guys? I have never really considered it has having a negative effect, but yeah, do you guys think I should give it up?

I can't make the choice for you, i can suggest that you search the forums for caffiene related threads to see the disscussions that have gone before and look at reasoning and counter arguments to the consumption of caffiene. Also search the internet and really understand just what caffiene is and does and stay objective. People here will give objective responses also so you don't need to worry about people just agreeing blindly because that is of little help and avoids the issue. Forget about straightedge for the time being and seriously consider where you stand on things such as moderate use or abstinance and try not to just think in terms of your friends. If after deliberating the facts you end up with a standpoint that aligns with straightedge then great but that really is a secondary thing. See its easy to consider being straightedge without actually considering what it is, it happens often but i feel its important to know what it is you stand for first before aligning with it. Straightedge could easily suffer from not really meaning anything at all if it becomes associated with acceptance of moderate drug use, so consistancy in what you believe is important - it should be important anyway! But the truth is that obviously if one drug is ok and another one is not then it lacks consistancy, this inconsistancy can easily lead to the idea that moderate amounts of any drug is ok and just leaves the idea of a stance against recreational drug use lacking legitimacy.

I stopped drinking caffiene a long time ago now, i was never a big drinker of it so never really noticed much difference but my aunt drank coffee all her life, every morning she would have a cup and wouldn't/couldn't start the day without it. Over the years it has contributed to health issues and she no can longer drink caffiene comfortably, she stopped drinking it a long time ago now and found that it had been effecting her sleep dramatically, after getting used to not having caffiene she found her sleep improved greatly which was helpful in other aspects of her health. She, by comparison to a lot of people, was a relatively light user of the drug. One of the most eye opening experiences i had was after i had been avoiding all caffiene for a long time i absent mindedly accepted a cup of tea at a friends house one evening, a few hours later i was at home trying to sleep and just couldn't, i was wide awake from the caffiene, i also had a racing heart rate. That right there illustrated to me that it was actually a legitimate drug with stimulating effect, you won't really notice these effects when using it regularly as you grow accustomed and develop familiarity to the feeling as well as a certain level of immunity which is why a lot of people end up drinking more and more of it.

Pirate Dave
08-15-2008, 05:59 PM
Straightedge could easily suffer from not really meaning anything at all if it becomes associated with acceptance of moderate drug use, so consistency in what you believe is important - it should be important anyway!
I have already thought about this a lot, previous to knowing what straight-edge was. I was reading some things about diet written by the Dalai lama, when one is unsure he suggests meditating on the negative or positive aspects of an action or belief. For example, imagining yourself a complete drunk, and imagining yourself completely tea-total and comparing the two, and which one you would prefer to be like. Since I have never tasted alcohol and had sort of already decided not ever to have it when I was like 14, this one was easy. I struggle more with things like food, I am not a good eater and have difficulty deciding what is the right path for myself. I shall, in the future meditate on the negative and positive aspects of caffeine, so as so come to the proper conclusion.


...a few hours later i was at home trying to sleep and just couldn't, i was wide awake from the caffeine, i also had a racing heart rate. I can appreciate that, I have a lot of trouble sleeping, aside from caffeine and such I have trouble sleeping anyway, I always seem to get very miserable at night, which I guess from reading some of those articles could also be connected to the caffeine, (although I'm 19, so it could also be that I've not grown out of being a moody teenager yet) but yeah, lack of sleep is a big problem for me. As a student its hard, 'cos part of me wants to stay awake until the silly hours so I can do my work at the last minute...

Thanks for your advice. :)

xAllTheRagex
08-18-2008, 03:01 PM
Atleast you're not using stimulant drinks, such as RedBull, to keep yourself awake or for a casual drink, like a lot of people do. Those are much worse than tea. Plus, if someone has too many of those you do see a change in them, like how alcohol has an effect on the mind and body. Therefore, moving away from caffine shouldn't be hard to move away from. Also, when I had a cup of tea, I didn't notice anything about racing heart beat or being really awake, and I used to have it very rarely.

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 01:48 PM
By definition, I'll admit that caffeine is a drug. However, until caffeine causes memory loss, cancer, altered judgement, liver damage, and/or decreased lung capacity, I'll keep comsuming it.





To me, Straight Edge is a choice, not a set of rules that you force yourself to live by. That's what it started as, then people took it too far. I'm not saying people are wrong for not being down for caffeine consumption, I'm just saying that I don't believe it's that big of a deal. Read the interview with Ian MacKaye in the book All Ages. If the creator of the "movement" so many people consider themselves a part of used to drink Coke ALL the time, I don't see what the problem is.

D1988
08-20-2008, 02:03 PM
People come on this forum, they talk about many things, but as soon as it comes to the caffiene discussion they always come out with the same reasoning and always come out with the same questions that have been answered and debated atleast 8 times before.

Kids be lazy with there reading!

D1988
08-20-2008, 02:06 PM
By definition, I'll admit that caffeine is a drug. However, until caffeine causes memory loss, cancer, altered judgement, liver damage, and/or decreased lung capacity, I'll keep comsuming it.

To me, Straight Edge is a choice, not a set of rules that you force yourself to live by. That's what it started as, then people took it too far. I'm not saying people are wrong for not being down for caffeine consumption, I'm just saying that I don't believe it's that big of a deal. Read the interview with Ian MacKaye in the book All Ages. If the creator of the "movement" so many people consider themselves a part of used to drink Coke ALL the time, I don't see what the problem is.

OK, you admit caffeiene is a drug. So you also admit that you aren't actually drug free then?

A bottle of beer every now and again will not cause you any damage health wise. You probably know as well as most people that a glass of wine now and again is actually GOOD for you. So would you have a drink of wine once a week even though you know it is a drug , but yeah, it isn't effecting you negatively so it's OK to drink the odd wine and still claim to be drug free?

Think about it man.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 02:06 PM
Atleast you're not using stimulant drinks, such as RedBull, to keep yourself awake or for a casual drink, like a lot of people do. Those are much worse than tea. Plus, if someone has too many of those you do see a change in them, like how alcohol has an effect on the mind and body. Therefore, moving away from caffine shouldn't be hard to move away from. Also, when I had a cup of tea, I didn't notice anything about racing heart beat or being really awake, and I used to have it very rarely.

The difference is i was not consuming caffiene at all. Most people wouldn't nottice anything if its something their body has gotton used to, and even irregular use will keep your body somewhat used to a dose of caffiene. Now if you actively avoid all caffiene for a extended period of time and then have a cup of tea, try sleeping. I mean most people i know can have 4 or 5 mugs of tea and still feel completely normal, i know for a fact that my body would run riot on that much due to its level of exposure to the drug!

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 02:08 PM
Well, naturally people HAVE to discuss things that they disagree on. Unfortunately, the caffeine vs. no caffeine debate is a lot like the God debate. When it comes down to it, it's faith vs. science and that's what ALL of the arguments are based off of. Obviously faith and science aren't the primary focus HERE, but I'm sure you see my point.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 02:13 PM
By definition, I'll admit that caffeine is a drug. However, until caffeine causes memory loss, cancer, altered judgement, liver damage, and/or decreased lung capacity, I'll keep comsuming it.





To me, Straight Edge is a choice, not a set of rules that you force yourself to live by. That's what it started as, then people took it too far. I'm not saying people are wrong for not being down for caffeine consumption, I'm just saying that I don't believe it's that big of a deal. Read the interview with Ian MacKaye in the book All Ages. If the creator of the "movement" so many people consider themselves a part of used to drink Coke ALL the time, I don't see what the problem is.


So it sounds as if you are blissfully unaware of the health risks that caffiene presents. Perhaps some research is in order!

Also ian mackaye is not a creator of the movement he was just a guy in a band that coined the term. It was others that ran with it and made it a movement and continue to do so today. Ian mackaye is not behind the movement and so if he drank coke it really doesn't matter. But interestingly enough, back then some people involved in the straightedge movement still drank beer, so if you want to stay rooted in the early eighties at straightedges inception and not move forward with the idea like anyone else then you have no reason not to crack open a beer.

But seriously, you need to look into the effects caffiene can have on your health before getting into this.

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 02:14 PM
OK, you admit caffeiene is a drug. So you also admit that you aren't actually drug free then?

A bottle of beer every now and again will not cause you any damage health wise. You probably know as well as most people that a glass of wine now and again is actually GOOD for you. So would you have a drink of wine once a week even though you know it is a drug , but yeah, it isn't effecting you negatively so it's OK to drink the odd wine and still claim to be drug free?

Think about it man.

Well then by YOUR rationale, no, I'm not drug free. But fortunately we can live by our own rules and beliefs.




Valid point. I have no response.

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 02:17 PM
So it sounds as if you are blissfully unaware of the health risks that caffiene presents. Perhaps some research is in order!

Also ian mackaye is not a creator of the movement he was just a guy in a band that coined the term. It was others that ran with it and made it a movement and continue to do so today. Ian mackaye is not behind the movement and so if he drank coke it really doesn't matter. But interestingly enough, back then some people involved in the straightedge movement still drank beer, so if you want to stay rooted in the early eighties at straightedges inception and not move forward with the idea like anyone else then you have no reason not to crack open a beer.

But seriously, you need to look into the effects caffiene can have on your health before getting into this.

I know the effects of caffeine. They are no where near as bad as the effects of other "drugs".

Can you cite me where you read this about people drinking beer? I'm not calling you a liar, I'd just like to read it.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 02:17 PM
Well, naturally people HAVE to discuss things that they disagree on. Unfortunately, the caffeine vs. no caffeine debate is a lot like the God debate. When it comes down to it, it's faith vs. science and that's what ALL of the arguments are based off of. Obviously faith and science aren't the primary focus HERE, but I'm sure you see my point.


Yeah but it seems like you disagree based on nothing factual, and whilst you could argue god does exist its not anything like trying to argue that caffiene isn't a drug. To argue that point is not a case of faith but rather a case of ignorance of the facts. Now perhaps you could bring out some argument based on your faith in caffiene...that would be a new one on me!

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 02:23 PM
Yeah but it seems like you disagree based on nothing factual, and whilst you could argue god does exist its not anything like trying to argue that caffiene isn't a drug. To argue that point is not a case of faith but rather a case of ignorance of the facts. Now perhaps you could bring out some argument based on your faith in caffiene...that would be a new one on me!

I was saying that the same arguments will be repeated because there really aren't many when it comes to those two topics. I disagree because I choose not to get wrapped up in technicalities. Sure, TECHNICALLY caffeine is a drug, but I don't trip balls when I drink it.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 02:25 PM
I know the effects of caffeine. They are no where near as bad as the effects of other "drugs".

They are pretty bad, especiallty as a accumalative effect over years of drinking the drug. But if you are now setting a criteria based on only avoid drugs based on how much harm they cause then surely you will be supportive of minimal or moderate usage of other drugs. Caffiene can and does damage your health, do you dispute that?


Can you cite me where you read this about people drinking beer? I'm not calling you a liar, I'd just like to read it.

I can and i will, i always thought there was some mention of it in that god awful all ages book. Bare with me and i will find something.

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 02:31 PM
I'm not supportive on moderate uses of other drugs because I like having a 100% percent clear mind at all times. Caffeine doesn't affect my judgement, which is another reason that I have no problem with it. Nope, I don't dispute that long term and frequent use of caffeine could have negative effects. But so could potato chips.

I liked that book.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 02:31 PM
I was saying that the same arguments will be repeated because there really aren't many when it comes to those two topics. I disagree because I choose not to get wrapped up in technicalities. Sure, TECHNICALLY caffeine is a drug, but I don't trip balls when I drink it.

My mother doesn't "trip balls" when she has a glass of wine, so whats your point?

The arhuments repeated are one based on fact and ones trying to somehow ignore those facts or justify in someway that those facts are less important. Your reasoning for consuming caffiene over other drugs is not sound, you act like it has no negative effects and you act like the consumption of any other drug is going to kill you, and that just isn't the reality of things. You need to accept that by your logic a glass of wine occasionally is ok, perhaps even a hash cake once in a while, caffiene will still be having negative effects, probably more so than the occasional wine or hash cake. And while you are entitled to that logic based on health factors i would like to stress how that simply doesn't fall in line with having a stance against recreational drug use ala straightedge.

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 02:41 PM
My mother doesn't "trip balls" when she has a glass of wine, so whats your point?

The arhuments repeated are one based on fact and ones trying to somehow ignore those facts or justify in someway that those facts are less important. Your reasoning for consuming caffiene over other drugs is not sound, you act like it has no negative effects and you act like the consumption of any other drug is going to kill you, and that just isn't the reality of things. You need to accept that by your logic a glass of wine occasionally is ok, perhaps even a hash cake once in a while, caffiene will still be having negative effects, probably more so than the occasional wine or hash cake. And while you are entitled to that logic based on health factors i would like to stress how that simply doesn't fall in line with having a stance against recreational drug use ala straightedge.
My point is that it might be a drug, but it does't really act like one. Unless someone drinks 10 red bulls or something.

Haha, I never said I had a problem with people having a glass of wine! Consumption of other drugs WON'T kill you, but it alters how you feel and I don't like that. In the most respectful way possible, I don't give two shits whether you think my logic qualifies me as Straight Edge. It's not your place to tell me whether or not I'm fit to be a part of it. You believe how you do and I believe how I do. You are not the king of the movement, you don't make the rules.


Once again, no disrespect intended.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 02:41 PM
I'm not supportive on moderate uses of other drugs because I like having a 100% percent clear mind at all times. Caffeine doesn't affect my judgement, which is another reason that I have no problem with it. Nope, I don't dispute that long term and frequent use of caffeine could have negative effects. But so could potato chips.

I liked that book.

but potatoes aren't drugs, caffiene is a drug and you admit it effects your health. Seeing as caffiene is really similar to cocaine perhaps a small amount of that is ok too, i mean it is simply effecting the central nervous system like caffiene instead of clouding your mind, it must be ok to have a little right!

But now you are using a different criteria to the one you started with, i mean you seem to be moving away from health factors and moving towards clear mindedness. You take a drug that causes damage yo your health, yet avoid other drugs that could cause less damage.

xsecx
08-20-2008, 02:42 PM
does anyone ever read the things that are posted or do they just react to the thread title?

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 02:44 PM
but potatoes aren't drugs, caffiene is a drug and you admit it effects your health. Seeing as caffiene is really similar to cocaine perhaps a small amount of that is ok too, i mean it is simply effecting the central nervous system like caffiene instead of clouding your mind, it must be ok to have a little right!

But now you are using a different criteria to the one you started with, i mean you seem to be moving away from health factors and moving towards clear mindedness. You take a drug that causes damage yo your health, yet avoid other drugs that could cause less damage.
No, but long term and frequent use of pretty much anything that can be eaten or drank could have negative side-effects. Caffeine doesn't make me feel like I'm on Cocaine. That's all that needs to be said about that. You've obviously never done Coke.

Because we've already discussed health factors.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 02:48 PM
My point is that it might be a drug, but it does't really act like one. Unless someone drinks 10 red bulls or something.

It does act like one, and if you support it only in small quantities then why not feel the same way about other drugs. If you have one glass of wine its not the same as 10 glasses so are you saying it doesn't act like one because the effect is less noticable. Thats so flawed.


Haha, I never said I had a problem with people having a glass of wine! Consumption of other drugs WON'T kill you, but it alters how you feel and I don't like that. In the most respectful way possible, I don't give two shits whether you think my logic qualifies me as Straight Edge. It's not your place to tell me whether or not I'm fit to be a part of it. You believe how you do and I believe how I do. You are not the king of the movement, you don't make the rules.

Ummm, who said i made the rules, i'm just pointing out exaxctly how flawed your stance is, its my place to respond to ill informed posts and challenge them to actually think about how they are inconsistant...and guess what, thats exactly what i'm doing. If you want to say you are against drugs because of health reasons then consume a drug that effects your health...well thats simply inconsistant. And if you can't handle that you can either become consistant or don't post about your inconsistancy, this isn't about being king at all.



Once again, no disrespect intended.


None taken, you are still inconsistant though.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 02:51 PM
No, but long term and frequent use of pretty much anything that can be eaten or drank could have negative side-effects. Caffeine doesn't make me feel like I'm on Cocaine. That's all that needs to be said about that. You've obviously never done Coke.

Because we've already discussed health factors.

But we are discussing drugs, not food or anything else. If you take enough caffiene you will get a more cocaine like effect, if you take a much smaller dose of cocaine you will get a more caffiene like effect. So with that in mind a little cocaine is ok right? Like perhaps we could add it to soft drinks or something!!!

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 02:53 PM
It does act like one, and if you support it only in small quantities then why not feel the same way about other drugs. If you have one glass of wine its not the same as 10 glasses so are you saying it doesn't act like one because the effect is less noticable. Thats so flawed.



Ummm, who said i made the rules, i'm just pointing out exaxctly how flawed your stance is, its my place to respond to ill informed posts and challenge them to actually think about how they are inconsistant...and guess what, thats exactly what i'm doing. If you want to say you are against drugs because of health reasons then consume a drug that effects your health...well thats simply inconsistant. And if you can't handle that you can either become consistant or don't post about your inconsistancy, this isn't about being king at all.





None taken, you are still inconsistant though.
No, it really doesn't. You obviously don't consume caffeine, so how would you know? Your Cocaine to caffeine comparison is as "flawed" as my argument (according to you).

You stressing how my views don't fall in with being Straight Edge gives me the impression that you run the shit.

Tell me how I'm being inconsistant.

Standinghard
08-20-2008, 02:54 PM
But we are discussing drugs, not food or anything else. If you take enough caffiene you will get a more cocaine like effect, if you take a much smaller dose of cocaine you will get a more caffiene like effect. So with that in mind a little cocaine is ok right? Like perhaps we could add it to soft drinks or something!!!
Do some Cocaine before making this comparison.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 04:54 PM
No, it really doesn't. You obviously don't consume caffeine, so how would you know?

i have consumed it in the past but thats really neither here nor there, how exactly does it not behave like a drug? I mean even you say it acts like one if you have 10 red bulls so you simply are talking crap at this point.



Your Cocaine to caffeine comparison is as "flawed" as my argument (according to you).

No, not really, you say you wouldn't condone cocaine. So if it was used as a ingrediant in soda like in the good old days you would actively stand against that. Ok thats fine, but why? I mean it wouldn't be the same as snorting a line of cocaine and it would in fact be similar to the way you use caffiene.


You stressing how my views don't fall in with being Straight Edge gives me the impression that you run the shit.

Well no, i'm just pointing out how you are picking and choosing what drugs to avoid based on flawed criteria. And as such it makes straightedge a little null and void if people just freely choose not to be against any particular substance and justify that with a lame ass argument that would work better as a cullender.




Tell me how I'm being inconsistant.

I already have!

straightXed
08-20-2008, 04:57 PM
Do some Cocaine before making this comparison.

It makes no difference if i do it or not, its based on the the scientific and medical research of how that group of drugs work. But congratulations on your presumptuous reply.

straightXed
08-20-2008, 04:59 PM
does anyone ever read the things that are posted or do they just react to the thread title?

it makes you wonder!

mouseman004
08-20-2008, 08:18 PM
does anyone ever read the things that are posted or do they just react to the thread title?

Yeah! Don't you hate it when people join the boards and start arguing a thread without reading what has been said in it! Who does that?





.....if anybody actually thinks I am serious here, go read my first posts on this site and you will see that I am making a joke at my own expense.

D1988
08-21-2008, 04:32 AM
does anyone ever read the things that are posted or do they just react to the thread title?

Exactly what I was getting at man.

xsecx
08-21-2008, 12:51 PM
Exactly what I was getting at man.


I'm just saying. the article I posted talks about what happens when you consume too much caffeine. People ignore this and then just want to talk about using a smaller amount, but then want to talk about how using a smaller amount of other substances are bad.
I don't fucking get it.