Can You Be Christian And Straight Edge?

[collin]

Ok, so already I've been hearing some controversy...So what do you guys think? Can you be sXe and Christian?

[SgtD]

Ok, so already I've been hearing some controversy...So what do you guys think? Can you be sXe and Christian?
you can't. but i've already showed you a link on that.

[collin]

yeah but all i got from that link was that there's a lot of dispute about it. why should sXe people exclude God? If that's their belief, then why should they change it? sXe should be open to more people, rather than just excluding some for their beliefs

[SgtD]

yeah but all i got from that link was that there's a lot of dispute about it. why should sXe people exclude God? If that's their belief, then why should they change it? sXe should be open to more people, rather than just excluding some for their beliefs
sxe is what it is, whether you would like it to be more open for other people or not. you contradict yourself, it's clear as day. i mean, in that case, we should expand it to not include hardcore, so more people could be edge, who hate hardcore, and listen to techno.it's the same with christianity

[collin]

i still don't see how i'm contradicting myself by being both. could you please just explain what you mean?

[SgtD]

i still don't see how i'm contradicting myself by being both. could you please just explain what you mean?
so you didn't read it too closely did you?

1. you say you are sxe. therefore you think drinking is wrong.
2. you are christian, and think that god is flawless, however jesus drank wine.
3. jesus drank wine-> he can't be flawless like you say. that's the contradiction

[collin]

1. Jesus drank wine because it was the only drink available, as the water was scarce and polluted.
2. Jesus didn't drink to get drunk.
3. Everyone drank wine-there was no other option.

[rodrigo]

1. Jesus drank wine because it was the only drink available, as the water was scarce and polluted.
2. Jesus didn't drink to get drunk.
3. Everyone drank wine-there was no other option.


well if he was the son of god capable to transform water into wine, he easily could have cleaned or purified the water

[collin]

but wine was necessary for the marriage, according to Jewish law. the wedding wouldn't be considered legal without wine to bring the two parties together. the hebrews were very ritualistic and specific when it came to marriage, and other social aspects. Ephesians 5:18- Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

[SgtD]

1. Jesus drank wine because it was the only drink available, as the water was scarce and polluted.
2. Jesus didn't drink to get drunk.
3. Everyone drank wine-there was no other option.
if i don't drink beer to get drunk, is that okay?

[rodrigo]

but wine was necessary for the marriage, according to Jewish law. the wedding wouldn't be considered legal without wine to bring the two parties together. the hebrews were very ritualistic and specific when it came to marriage, and other social aspects. Ephesians 5:18- Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.


what? jesus got married?!?!?!

[SgtD]

but wine was necessary for the marriage, according to Jewish law. the wedding wouldn't be considered legal without wine to bring the two parties together. the hebrews were very ritualistic and specific when it came to marriage, and other social aspects. Ephesians 5:18- Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
so, if you don't get drunk on wine, it's okay to drink it?

[collin]

no it's not ok. however, if you live in a place where every source of drink is hazardous except wine, then it's ok, because wine is the only drink that you can have without getting sick. as to whether Jesus was married, i have no idea. there are no Scriptural references to Jesus having a wife, but if he had one, it really wouldn't conflict with any aspects of Christianity.

[SgtD]

no it's not ok. however, if you live in a place where every source of drink is hazardous except wine, then it's ok, because wine is the only drink that you can have without getting sick. as to whether Jesus was married, i have no idea. there are no Scriptural references to Jesus having a wife, but if he had one, it really wouldn't conflict with any aspects of Christianity.
there was though

[collin]

there was what?

[SgtD]

there was what?
there was drinkable water

[collin]

actually there wasn't. the wedding where Jesus turned water into wine was at Cana, which was a small town on the Sea Of Galilee. The only water available was salt water, and they didn't have any way to remove the salt back then.

[SgtD]

actually there wasn't. the wedding where Jesus turned water into wine was at Cana, which was a small town on the Sea Of Galilee. The only water available was salt water, and they didn't have any way to remove the salt back then.
what about Peter's well?

[collin]

The water was corrupt. peter's well was beside an area of limestone and sulfur. the well water was unsafe for human consumption. i visited the area when i was visiting the Middle East with my ex-girlfriend.

[rodrigo]

The water was corrupt. peter's well was beside an area of limestone and sulfur. the well water was unsafe for human consumption. i visited the area when i was visiting the Middle East with my ex-girlfriend.

c'mon you know theres gotta be some drinkable water
people usually dont live in places withouth water, thats why civilisations starts near water

[collin]

civilization starts near water, but spreads when other sources of nourishment are found. the only water was corrupt.

[rodrigo]

civilization starts near water, but spreads when other sources of nourishment are found. the only water was corrupt.

so if the water was corrupt, how do you call that a source of nourishment?

[SgtD]

The water was corrupt. peter's well was beside an area of limestone and sulfur. the well water was unsafe for human consumption. i visited the area when i was visiting the Middle East with my ex-girlfriend.
it was drinkable, and whatever you try to come up with you can't prove that you are not contradicting yourself being edge and christian

[collin]

I am edge, but I still hold my full faith in God and in Jesus. And maybe the only reason why the two conflict in your mind is because you're too narrow-minded to admit that there might be a God, and that he rules over everything.

[straightXed]

I am edge, but I still hold my full faith in God and in Jesus. And maybe the only reason why the two conflict in your mind is because you're too narrow-minded to admit that there might be a God, and that he rules over everything.


You aren't edge, theres no god.

[collin]

i think that it's lame to try and say that i can't be edge and christian, and i know plenty of people who are both.

[straightXed]

i think that it's lame to try and say that i can't be edge and christian, and i know plenty of people who are both.

No you know lots of people who claim to be both but are unable to come to terms with the fact they condradict each other.

[SgtD]

I am edge, but I still hold my full faith in God and in Jesus. And maybe the only reason why the two conflict in your mind is because you're too narrow-minded to admit that there might be a God, and that he rules over everything.
shit! you don't get it do you??? re-read please

[xCAMIx]

The kid's right. I'm gonna say I agree with him and leave it there. I've heard these facts. And Jesus actually only distributed the wine.

[pittstonjoma]

Just thought I'd mention.. Jesus had a love interest.. It was mentioned in texts related to the Bible but not part of it.. like The Gospel Of Thomas.

[xsecx]

but wine was necessary for the marriage, according to Jewish law. the wedding wouldn't be considered legal without wine to bring the two parties together. the hebrews were very ritualistic and specific when it came to marriage, and other social aspects. Ephesians 5:18- Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

except that the people were already drunk when jesus turned it into wine.

[xsecx]

1. Jesus drank wine because it was the only drink available, as the water was scarce and polluted.
2. Jesus didn't drink to get drunk.
3. Everyone drank wine-there was no other option.

john the baptist didn't and jesus makes a point of this in the scripture. this statement is categorically and completely wrong.

[xsecx]

The kid's right. I'm gonna say I agree with him and leave it there. I've heard these facts. And Jesus actually only distributed the wine.


which even if he did, jesus would have found no fault in the consumption of alcohol, something you do, so you're still back to the basic problem of saying that jesus was wrong about something.

[xsecx]

Just thought I'd mention.. Jesus had a love interest.. It was mentioned in texts related to the Bible but not part of it.. like The Gospel Of Thomas.

trying to bring the gnostic gospels into something with kids who can't even read and understand that agreed upon bible is futile.

[mouseman004]

This has to be the stupidest argument ever. Of course you can be straight edge and still be christian. the point of being straight edge is not to pollute your body, not to put yourself on a pedestal thinking you are better than everybody else for not drinking and putting in imaginary guidelines. Grow up.

[mouseman004]

Don't drink, Don't smoke, Don't fuck. Nowhere does it say "Don't follow religion" or hate everybody who drinks. Quiting acting so "holy" pardon the pun. Get off your pedestal. Just because somebody has different opinions than you doesnt mean they arent edge.

[xsecx]

This has to be the stupidest argument ever. Of course you can be straight edge and still be christian. the point of being straight edge is not to pollute your body, not to put yourself on a pedestal thinking you are better than everybody else for not drinking and putting in imaginary guidelines. Grow up.

ok. so how can you be both when you just said that jesus polluted his body, but jesus is god, and perfect, so how is that possible? For once could one you actually address the arguement that's being brought up and actually making a point for a change rather than making some sort of bullshit statement that doesn't say anything other than "huh, of course you can be both, but I won't explain to you the how's or why's or even address the really glaring issues surrounding it"

[xsecx]

Don't drink, Don't smoke, Don't fuck. Nowhere does it say "Don't follow religion" or hate everybody who drinks. Quiting acting so "holy" pardon the pun. Get off your pedestal. Just because somebody has different opinions than you doesnt mean they arent edge.

could you please get off your pedestal and actually read what people have written regarding WHY you can't be christian and edge?

[mouseman004]

so logically you are saying that I cant be friends with somebody who is not edge because then im supporting drinking?

[mouseman004]

So here is where I stand. I am not christian, I do not know anything about the bible or Jesus. My problem are the guidelines that are invented to make Straight Edge an exclusive thing. if it makes you feel good telling people that their beleifs are stupid and that they cant be a part of your club, then hey, whatever floats your boat. If it helps you sleep at night feeling superior to others, then go right ahead.

[rodrigo]

So here is where I stand. I am not christian, I do not know anything about the bible or Jesus. My problem are the guidelines that are invented to make Straight Edge an exclusive thing. if it makes you feel good telling people that their beleifs are stupid and that they cant be a part of your club, then hey, whatever floats your boat. If it helps you sleep at night feeling superior to others, then go right ahead.

nobodys claiming to be superior to anybody

[rodrigo]

so logically you are saying that I cant be friends with somebody who is not edge because then im supporting drinking?

no. he is saying that if you dont support drinking, you are also saying that Jesus was wrong

[mouseman004]

in order to be a devout christian you have to beleive that Jesus is Salvation. You dont have to beleive that Jesus was perfect

[mouseman004]

My father is my role model. He drinks, does that mean i cannot be edge?

[rodrigo]

in order to be a devout christian you have to beleive that Jesus is Salvation. You dont have to beleive that Jesus was perfect
jesus being the son of god and part of the holy trinity (wich means he was part of god) cant be wrong... because god is perfect.

if you think jesus was wrong you are saying that god is wrong
and if you believe that god is wrong, you are not christian

[mouseman004]

god is not perfect and to think that is naiive. but this debate is going nowhere because neither of us will ever change our opinions. So I guess because some kids on a website say i'm not edge, i guess im just clean. have fun with your label

[rodrigo]

My father is my role model. He drinks, does that mean i cannot be edge?
no. that means that if you consider that drinking is wrong, you dont really consider your father as a good role model

[mouseman004]

So really to be edge I have to look down on everybody who drinks?

[rodrigo]

So really to be edge I have to look down on everybody who drinks?
no. you have to think that is wrong to do drugs

[SgtD]

god is not perfect and to think that is naiive. but this debate is going nowhere because neither of us will ever change our opinions. So I guess because some kids on a website say i'm not edge, i guess im just clean. have fun with your label
why is not god perfect? please give us an example

[xvunderx]

in order to be a devout christian you have to beleive that Jesus is Salvation. You dont have to beleive that Jesus was perfect

How don't you? Jesus was God, god is perfect, if yopu say God is inperfect in some way, and that you are right on even one marret, you put yourself above God, and I don't think anyone has to be a Christian to know that is blasphemy, on a pretty hig level.

[xvunderx]

god is not perfect and to think that is naiive. but this debate is going nowhere because neither of us will ever change our opinions. So I guess because some kids on a website say i'm not edge, i guess im just clean. have fun with your label

In your opinion it might be naive to think of God as perfect, but as a Christian, it's the most important belief to have.

[xsecx]

so logically you are saying that I cant be friends with somebody who is not edge because then im supporting drinking?

can you read and comprehend english?

[xsecx]

god is not perfect and to think that is naiive. but this debate is going nowhere because neither of us will ever change our opinions. So I guess because some kids on a website say i'm not edge, i guess im just clean. have fun with your label

you seriously have no understanding of the subject at hand, can't read and are honestly pretty ignorant on the entire subject you're trying to talk about. god by definition is perfect and who's actions have to be right, by the very definition of what god is. this goes for any god. you however don't appear to even have a basic understanding of religion or logic.

[xsecx]

in order to be a devout christian you have to beleive that Jesus is Salvation. You dont have to beleive that Jesus was perfect

"So here is where I stand. I am not christian, I do not know anything about the bible or Jesus."

[collin]

is this all you guys do? just gang up and make personal attacks on people just because they don't believe the exact same thing you do? that's really lame. grow up and learn to accept the fact that everybody doesn't have to think like you do. i believe in a perfect god with a perfect son. i believe that drinking is wrong. but wine is much different now than it was then. learn some history. as to jesus having a lover, that is talked about in the gnostic gospel of phillip. i have no problem with the idea that jesus could have been married. but i also have done history and i know that the books that were chosen by Constantine to be in the bible were chosen because they showed the more spiritual aspects of jesus. i believe jesus was fully god and fully man. i believe he was crucified, dead, put in the tomb, and rose from the dead after three days, and later ascended into heaven. don't tell me what i can or can't do, or what i can and can't believe.

[rodrigo]

is this all you guys do? just gang up and make personal attacks on people just because they don't believe the exact same thing you do? that's really lame. grow up and learn to accept the fact that everybody doesn't have to think like you do. i believe in a perfect god with a perfect son. i believe that drinking is wrong. but wine is much different now than it was then. learn some history. as to jesus having a lover, that is talked about in the gnostic gospel of phillip. i have no problem with the idea that jesus could have been married. but i also have done history and i know that the books that were chosen by Constantine to be in the bible were chosen because they showed the more spiritual aspects of jesus. i believe jesus was fully god and fully man. i believe he was crucified, dead, put in the tomb, and rose from the dead after three days, and later ascended into heaven. don't tell me what i can or can't do, or what i can and can't believe.

no we dont, if you actually try to read you will notice that there are only questions, answers, and logic

and none of the things you said can explain why you think that god is wrong and perfect

[mouseman004]

Jesus Christ was human. Humans have faults, that is written in the bible. Call me illiterate, gang up on me and attack me because you think you are better than me. But you have no right deciding who is or is not edge, you have no right to tell somebody that because he has different beleifs than you, he isnt edge.

[xsecx]

is this all you guys do? just gang up and make personal attacks on people just because they don't believe the exact same thing you do? that's really lame. grow up and learn to accept the fact that everybody doesn't have to think like you do. i believe in a perfect god with a perfect son. i believe that drinking is wrong. but wine is much different now than it was then. learn some history. as to jesus having a lover, that is talked about in the gnostic gospel of phillip. i have no problem with the idea that jesus could have been married. but i also have done history and i know that the books that were chosen by Constantine to be in the bible were chosen because they showed the more spiritual aspects of jesus. i believe jesus was fully god and fully man. i believe he was crucified, dead, put in the tomb, and rose from the dead after three days, and later ascended into heaven. don't tell me what i can or can't do, or what i can and can't believe.

ok, so then where historically does it say that wine was different? You believe that drinking is wrong, and that jesus is therefore wrong for drinking. IF you believe he is fully god then you would then also have to believe that he is perfect, not perfect of the time or the situation, but perfect. There is a MAJOR philosophical difference between christianity and the beliefs that you are claiming within straight edge. A religion that puts huge symbolism into wine and a group of people against the consumption of alcohol. Your god and your religion are telling you wht you can and can't do,you're just not paying attention.

[xsecx]

Jesus Christ was human. Humans have faults, that is written in the bible. Call me illiterate, gang up on me and attack me because you think you are better than me. But you have no right deciding who is or is not edge, you have no right to tell somebody that because he has different beleifs than you, he isnt edge.

wait, do you know nothing about jesus and the bible or not? You also somehow think we're the ones making this decision. The issue here is christians believing that drinking alcohol is wrong, not straight edge.

[mouseman004]

The unitarians are highly linked with AA. Many of them beleive drinking is wrong and in fact they serve juice at communion instead of wine. Does that make them less christian?

[xsecx]

The unitarians are highly linked with AA. Many of them beleive drinking is wrong and in fact they serve juice at communion instead of wine. Does that make them less christian?

uh. the unitarian church isn't christian just as it isn't buddhist or muslim or jewish or xyz. and your ignorance aside, serving grape juice over wine isn't the issue. The issue at hand is that Jesus drank alcohol. There is are historical, biblical and cultural reasons to believe this. Jesus is supposedly the son of god and therefore perfect. Jesus was a perfect human that all christians should strive to be like. Now the problem comes in when you put yourself ABOVE god by stating that you are right about something where god was wrong. Now that causes a conflict, because a follower of god can never be above god, let alone correct god. That's a major issue.

[mouseman004]

Okay, suppose I see your point. that then raises another question. In order to be edge would I have to see myself above those who drink?

[xsecx]

Okay, suppose I see your point. that then raises another question. In order to be edge would I have to see myself above those who drink?

same rules don't apply to people. it simply means you disagree with them. people can be wrong, god can't. now if you want to think that you're right and other people are wrong makes you better than them, then that's your call.

[mouseman004]

I am not a christian, nor do I follow any form of organised religion, so I am sorry if you feel I have wasted your time. I guess I am just getting sick of being told (or others being told) that you cant be edge if...(insert reason here). There is always a reason and it seems to get tougher and tougher to call yourself edge every day and that sucks. The point of edge is to not pollute your body, in my opinion it has no precedence over what others want to do with their own bodies. I suppose if thats wrong I'm not edge

[xsecx]

I am not a christian, nor do I follow any form of organised religion, so I am sorry if you feel I have waisted your time. I guess I am just getting sick of being told (or others being told) that you cant be edge if...(insert reason here). There is always a reason and it seems to get tougher and tougher to call yourself edge every day and that sucks. The point of edge is to not pollute your body, in my opinion it has no precedence over what others want to do with their own bodies. I suppose if thats wrong I'm not edge

yeah, but the whole point of this discussion is for people to live in accordance to their beliefs and not hold onto labels for the sake of it. IF you're going to be a christian, then you should be a real christian and live in full accordance to those beliefs. If you're going to be edge, same thing applies. There are however times when people will claim to be apart of 2 groups with conflicting beliefs. This is one of those cases. If you're going to be a devout, honest and good christian, saying that you know better than god isn't possible.

that being said, there's more to being edge than just what you believe.

[mouseman004]

Alright I guess I completely understand that. If you are edge do it because you fully beleive in it, not for the sake of the label. Although I still disagree with some things that were said here, I understand what you are saying so I will leave the issue alone.

[stepinsideissue]

i think that it's lame to try and say that i can't be edge and christian, and i know plenty of people who are both.


But that is what sXe is weither you think it's lame or not. Thats what it has become. You either accept it or you don't.

[stepinsideissue]

Don't drink, Don't smoke, Don't fuck. Nowhere does it say "Don't follow religion" or hate everybody who drinks. Quiting acting so "holy" pardon the pun. Get off your pedestal. Just because somebody has different opinions than you doesnt mean they arent edge.


If you really want to go that route and play Ian MacKaye said then what about the song Filler?

[stepinsideissue]

So........ how about those * insert favorite sports team or favorite band here * man they sure are cool. Good show/ game last week huh.

[xbustedx]

Ok, so already I've been hearing some controversy...So what do you guys think? Can you be sXe and Christian?

oh not again....fuck this.

[stepinsideissue]

oh not again....fuck this.


It's about fucking time someone said what we're all thinking.

[straightXed]

It's about fucking time someone said what we're all thinking.

Well i was thinking, "check out the profanity right there?!"

[Seishin]

I love it how others ask of peoples opinions and when they get a reply they can't accept the answers and get all offensive.

[stepinsideissue]

Well i was thinking, "check out the profanity right there?!"



The advitar says it all my friend.

[xbustedx]

It's about fucking time someone said what we're all thinking.

but seriously I have been in three other threads that all ended up in this exac argument.

[straightXed]

but seriously I have been in three other threads that all ended up in this exac argument.


And people can't convincingly put forward a counter argument, until they do this is the point the discussion will get caught up.

[xCAMIx]

And people can't convincingly put forward a counter argument, until they do this is the point the discussion will get caught up.
Basically your guy's side says that if I buy a Sex Pistol's CD, then say Sid's a genious for the bass lines he made, I cannot be edge because by supporting the band for their music, I'm also supporting their beliefs. I am not. Same thing applies to the Bible, Christianity , and Jesus.
You can be edge and Christian. That's where I'll stand, That's where I'll stay.

[xsecx]

Basically your guy's side says that if I buy a Sex Pistol's CD, then say Sid's a genious for the bass lines he made, I cannot be edge because by supporting the band for their music, I'm also supporting their beliefs. I am not. Same thing applies to the Bible, Christianity , and Jesus.
You can be edge and Christian. That's where I'll stand, That's where I'll stay.

wow, you really don't understand the argument at all.

[straightXed]

Basically your guy's side says that if I buy a Sex Pistol's CD, then say Sid's a genious for the bass lines he made, I cannot be edge because by supporting the band for their music, I'm also supporting their beliefs. I am not. Same thing applies to the Bible, Christianity , and Jesus.
You can be edge and Christian. That's where I'll stand, That's where I'll stay.

Thats not at all an acceptable comparison of the side that says christianity and edge don't equate. What would be a better comparison would be if you claimed to be punk but held the ideals of punk as something that don't apply to you.

If you are edge you are saying god is wrong, so unless you are saying that you can be christian and think that god is wrong (which would be a ridiculous thing to say although i'm sure you are capable of being that ridiculous) then you are wrong in saying you are a christian. However through your posts on this forum it has become abundantly clear that you are an awful christian who really has troubles understanding the concepts behind the ideas set forth in the religion of christianity. I mean you can't even refrain from swearing because its a bit of effort on your part so your insight into the structure of your faith and how it intertwines with other structures really holds very little weight. Even your analogys are painfully off beat and don't address the core of the argument, when you can acceptably address those issues perhaps what you say will begin to have some worth but as it stands you have simply posted inacurate nonsense and accompanied that by simply saying "You can be edge and Christian." Hardly an air tight argument! I mean the very source text of your religion identifys the points that we argue but you choose not to accept the word of your god, your argument isn't even with us its with your own belief system, with your god. You can say that its where you stand and how its where you will stay but that doesn't convince me otherwise of the inconsitancies between being edge and christian, that just shows me that you are standing in defiance of your god. Even though it may seem menial its still his way you are going against. Where you stand just makes you an illogical and awful christain which as you have proven is pretty much the sum of the truth.

[rodrigo]

if I buy a Sex Pistol's CD, then say Sid's a genious for the bass lines he made,

best joke ever

[KyleEvans]

The irony is that sid couldnt play bass and the guitarist played bass on never mind the bullocs.

[Old_Man_sxe]

so you didn't read it too closely did you?

1. you say you are sxe. therefore you think drinking is wrong.
2. you are christian, and think that god is flawless, however jesus drank wine.
3. jesus drank wine-> he can't be flawless like you say. that's the contradiction


Who said the wine that Jesus drank contained alcohol? I have no proof, but most wine back in those times contained no alcohol. Maybe? Possibly?

[xsecx]

Who said the wine that Jesus drank contained alcohol? I have no proof, but most wine back in those times contained no alcohol. Maybe? Possibly?

because contextually there's no reason to believe it didn't. Most wine back then did contain alcohol, that's what made it wine. Jesus makes the distinction between himself and John the baptist. Jesus drank alcohol and John the Baptist didn't.

[Old_Man_sxe]

because contextually there's no reason to believe it didn't. Most wine back then did contain alcohol, that's what made it wine. Jesus makes the distinction between himself and John the baptist. Jesus drank alcohol and John the Baptist didn't.

I have to disagree that alcohol made the wine. Wine that is freshly pressed contains no alcohol.

[xsecx]

I have to disagree that alcohol made the wine. Wine that is freshly pressed contains no alcohol.

liquid that is freshly pressed isn't wine. it's juice. it doesn't become wine until it's fermented. Like I said traditionally there is no reason to believe, like in the instance of the wedding at galea that the wine that jesus created wasn't alcoholic, as it was tradition. Wine at the last supper? Still alcoholic today in passover.

[Old_Man_sxe]

liquid that is freshly pressed isn't wine. it's juice. it doesn't become wine until it's fermented. Like I said traditionally there is no reason to believe, like in the instance of the wedding at galea that the wine that jesus created wasn't alcoholic, as it was tradition. Wine at the last supper? Still alcoholic today in passover.

Grape juice was referred to as wine in those times.

[xsecx]

Grape juice was referred to as wine in those times.

it was refered to as oinos which can mean both, but typically implies alcohol. Now if you want to provide some supporting evidence as to why the wine definitely wasn't alcoholic, then go for it.

[Old_Man_sxe]

it was refered to as oinos which can mean both, but typically implies alcohol. Now if you want to provide some supporting evidence as to why the wine definitely wasn't alcoholic, then go for it.

I already stated my theory with "freshly pressed”, but I wasn't there. I doubt anyone is going to prove it was alcohol or non-alcohol, based on actual fact.

So Christians can be sxe? Possibly?

[xsecx]

I already stated my theory with "freshly pressed”, but I wasn't there. I doubt anyone is going to prove it was alcohol or non-alcohol, based on actual fact.

So Christians can be sxe? Possibly?

based on traditions, based on what's written Jesus drank alcoholic wine. The only people who disagree with this are ones that want to change history and change the bible to condemn alcohol consumption period, even though the bible is very clear that getting drunk is a sin.

[Old_Man_sxe]

based on traditions, based on what's written Jesus drank alcoholic wine. .

You'll have to provide a reference, I'm not aware of anything written that the wine Jesus drank was alcohol wine.

My opinion is no bibical scholar is going to waste his/her time on this kind of research.

[xsecx]

You'll have to provide a reference, I'm not aware of anything written that the wine Jesus drank was alcohol wine.

My opinion is no bibical scholar is going to waste his/her time on this kind of research.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=988

you do realize that there are entire BOOKS written on the topic right?

[Old_Man_sxe]

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=988

you do realize that there are entire BOOKS written on the topic right?

Nope I didn't realize there was............anyways:


Yes Jesus did turn water into wine, but did he drink that wine? It does not say in John. More importantly…..what the waiter is talking about is what happens traditionally at these feasts (drank--> not drank freely as per KJV). Where does it say that he was going to serve the bad wine at that moment? There is no base here for factual. Its a weak argument they make. I don’t find any support here that Jesus drank alcoholic wine. Plus they are using a revised bible that I don’t agree with or find very accurate.

[collin]

i really don't see why everyone gets all bent out of shape over people who are edge also being christians. you won't change our beliefs...

[xsecx]

Nope I didn't realize there was............anyways:


Yes Jesus did turn water into wine, but did he drink that wine? It does not say in John. More importantly…..what the waiter is talking about is what happens traditionally at these feasts (drank--> not drank freely as per KJV). Where does it say that he was going to serve the bad wine at that moment? There is no base here for factual. Its a weak argument they make. I don’t find any support here that Jesus drank alcoholic wine. Plus they are using a revised bible that I don’t agree with or find very accurate.

Even if you want to use that as an argument, jesus is still condoning the drinking of the wine, and you're still contradicting god and telling him that he is wrong, so the issue still remains.

[xsecx]

i really don't see why everyone gets all bent out of shape over people who are edge also being christians. you won't change our beliefs...

because people are either being shitty edge kids, or shitty christians.

[Old_Man_sxe]

Even if you want to use that as an argument, jesus is still condoning the drinking of the wine, and you're still contradicting god and telling him that he is wrong, so the issue still remains.

I thought the debate was that Jesus drank alcohol via wine.

I don't see the condoning of alcohol via wine. There is no proof that the water turned to wine was alcoholic. A waiter talking about traditions at past feasts does not prove anything to support that argument.

I don't belive in the Trinity. Jesus was the son of God.

[xsecx]

I thought the debate was that Jesus drank alcohol via wine.

I don't see the condoning of alcohol via wine. There is no proof that the water turned to wine was alcoholic. A waiter talking about traditions at past feasts does not prove anything to support that argument.

I don't belive in the Trinity. Jesus was the son of God.

the debate is blasphemy of the lord. the scripture is pretty clear that the wine in question was alcoholic. I don't see you providing anything supporting your claims at all at this point. And if youdon't believe in the trinity then this conversation is especially moot since you're already a blasphemer and destined for hell.

[Old_Man_sxe]

the debate is blasphemy of the lord. the scripture is pretty clear that the wine in question was alcoholic. I don't see you providing anything supporting your claims at all at this point. And if youdon't believe in the trinity then this conversation is especially moot since you're already a blasphemer and destined for hell.

The scripture is clear that wine in question was just wine, nothing more. Where do keep coming up with that the wine was alcoholic? Please elaborate. Just because a bunch of pastors put it on the web, doesn't mean jack.

So everyone that doesn't believe in catholicism’s holy trinity is going to hell? That's just plain sad. Very sad.

[xsecx]

The scripture is clear that wine in question was just wine, nothing more. Where do keep coming up with that the wine was alcoholic? Please elaborate. Just because a bunch of pastors put it on the web, doesn't mean jack.

So everyone that doesn't believe in catholicism’s holy trinity is going to hell? That's just plain sad. Very sad.

it makes references to people being drunk. So where do you get that it or any wine that's mentioned in the bible isn't alcoholic? You haven't actually provided anything other than your unsupported opinion up til now, which doesn't mean jack.

the holy trinity isn't a catholic thing. You kind of have to believe in it to believe the rest of it. The concept of the father, son and holy ghost is the foundation of christianity, so yeah if you don't believe it it, and if they're right, you're going to hell.

[Old_Man_sxe]

it makes references to people being drunk.

Check the King James Version and tell me that again.


So where do you get that it or any wine that's mentioned in the bible isn't alcoholic? You haven't actually provided anything other than your unsupported opinion up til now, which doesn't mean jack.

Dido


the holy trinity isn't a catholic thing. You kind of have to believe in it to believe the rest of it. The concept of the father, son and holy ghost is the foundation of christianity, so yeah if you don't believe it it, and if they're right, you're going to hell.

The trinity is the catholicism belief that Jesus Christ was actually God himself, not the son of God. I believe in God, Jesus Christ his son & The Holy Ghost, all as separate entities.

[xsecx]

Check the King James Version and tell me that again.


well drunk is in that version too. the implication that the wedding guests were drunk before the wine was supplied there too.



Dido


yeah. still haven't actually provided anything.




The trinity is the catholicism belief that Jesus Christ was actually God himself, not the son of God. I believe in God, Jesus Christ his son & The Holy Ghost, all as separate entities.

what you're trying to say you believe isn't a christian belief. the trinity isn't a catholicism thing. it's an all organzied christian thing.

[Old_Man_sxe]

well drunk is in that version too. the implication that the wedding guests were drunk before the wine was supplied there too.

This is based on YOUR interpretation. I not going to beat up on this dead horse anymore.



yeah. still haven't actually provided anything.

When you actually prove something, then maybe I'll make the effort





what you're trying to say you believe isn't a christian belief. the trinity isn't a catholicism thing. it's an all organzied christian thing.

Yes it is rooted deep in Catholicism. It's Origins are actually that of Babylonian Sects, but that’s an entire different subject matter.

Some Christians believe in separate entities, even some Catholics who disagree w/ church doctrine. I am one of them, before I turned my back on the church.

[xsecx]

This is based on YOUR interpretation. I not going to beat up on this dead horse anymore.

bible scholars AND mine. you haven't brought up a single supporting piece of evidence other than "maybe the wine isn't wine". no history, no books, no nothing. just you and YOUR opinion.




When you actually prove something, then maybe I'll make the effort


yeah, since you've clearly put so much effort up to this point.




Yes it is rooted deep in Catholicism. It's Origins are actually that of Babylonian Sects, but that’s an entire different subject matter.

Some Christians believe in separate entities, even some Catholics who disagree w/ church doctrine. I am one of them, before I turned my back on the church.

considering that all christianity was deeply rooted in catholicism, I don't really get your point here, espeically since it was the first church. the best part of all of this is that it's moot, because regardless, jesus would still be divine, without sin and without the capablity of sin.

[mouseman004]

it makes references to people being drunk. So where do you get that it or any wine that's mentioned in the bible isn't alcoholic? You haven't actually provided anything other than your unsupported opinion up til now, which doesn't mean jack.

the holy trinity isn't a catholic thing. You kind of have to believe in it to believe the rest of it. The concept of the father, son and holy ghost is the foundation of christianity, so yeah if you don't believe it it, and if they're right, you're going to hell.


The idea that different beliefs are blasphemy and that those with different beleifs are going to hell is completely untrue. I do not know about any religion specifically, but i know that the divisions of christianity that are around today are based upon different interpretations of religion. Martin Luther came up with the idea of protestantism because he disagreed with the catholic church, protestantism is different, however is still a sect of christianity. anglicanism was created in England because of disagreements with catholic beleifs, but still a form of christianity. I can go on. Different beleifs do not make anybody less christian.

[Old_Man_sxe]

bible scholars AND mine. you haven't brought up a single supporting piece of evidence other than "maybe the wine isn't wine". no history, no books, no nothing. just you and YOUR opinion.

Well, what do the scholars have to say?

[Old_Man_sxe]

and none of this bible school graduate stuff like the last reference url.

[mouseman004]

The idea that different beliefs are blasphemy and that those with different beleifs are going to hell is completely untrue. I do not know about any religion specifically, but i know that the divisions of christianity that are around today are based upon different interpretations of religion. Martin Luther came up with the idea of protestantism because he disagreed with the catholic church, protestantism is different, however is still a sect of christianity. anglicanism was created in England because of disagreements with catholic beleifs, but still a form of christianity. I can go on. Different beleifs do not make anybody less christian.

Don't get me wrong here, this isnt helping the idea of Jesus drinking wine, its just the issue that you can have different views on religion

[xsecx]

The idea that different beliefs are blasphemy and that those with different beleifs are going to hell is completely untrue. I do not know about any religion specifically, but i know that the divisions of christianity that are around today are based upon different interpretations of religion. Martin Luther came up with the idea of protestantism because he disagreed with the catholic church, protestantism is different, however is still a sect of christianity. anglicanism was created in England because of disagreements with catholic beleifs, but still a form of christianity. I can go on. Different beleifs do not make anybody less christian.

it's these specific different beliefs that are the question and the issue. Saying that Jesus wasn't divine, is by definition blasphemy. The major differences within christianty when looking at them are all ritual and focus related, not the core belief. They all believe that Jesus was god in human form. They all believe that he was divine and flawless.

[xsecx]

and none of this bible school graduate stuff like the last reference url.

you mean from a bible scholar?

[xsecx]

Well, what do the scholars have to say?

why can't you provide anything that's asked for? are you even capable?

[xbatmanx]

Now I don't know about the sxe guidelines or anything. I didn't really think there was a rule book and for as long as I've been in the scene there has always been debate over certain issues. But I do know that in order to call yourself a Christian you must believe that Jesus is the Saviour. That is the only thing you need to acknowledge if you are a Christian. Nowhere does it say you must drink wine or support drinking wine. So therefore if I am straight edge and I believe that Jesus is my Saviour, it is possible to be sxe and Christian simultaneously.
Somewhere early in this thread someone mentioned a link regarding this debate. Can someone repost that? I'd be interested in reading it.

[xsecx]

Now I don't know about the sxe guidelines or anything. I didn't really think there was a rule book and for as long as I've been in the scene there has always been debate over certain issues. But I do know that in order to call yourself a Christian you must believe that Jesus is the Saviour. That is the only thing you need to acknowledge if you are a Christian. Nowhere does it say you must drink wine or support drinking wine. So therefore if I am straight edge and I believe that Jesus is my Saviour, it is possible to be sxe and Christian simultaneously.
Somewhere early in this thread someone mentioned a link regarding this debate. Can someone repost that? I'd be interested in reading it.


the issue comes down to basic logic, not what is said in the bible. if jesus is your savior and is the lord, then he is flawless. jesus drank alcohol. even if you want to believe he didn't, he still clearly had no problem with alcohol consumption since he turned water to wine. Straight edge kids believe that drinking alcohol is wrong. This contradicts Jesus. You can't contradict jesus if you believe him to be perfect, sinless and flawless.

full debate here:
http://sxe.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2558

[xbatmanx]

It is not necessarily true that Jesus is flawless. Jesus has human characteristics as well. Humans are by nature flawed. Jesus had both divinity (miracles) and human flaws (drinking). Jesus came down to teach us how to live. Not one of his sermons told us we need to drink. He taught us things like loving thy neighbor not drinking thy wine. His actions did not always reflect what he taught. He taught us to turn the other cheek, yet in the temple he flipped out and destroyed the little market they had going on. So drinking was not fundamental to his teachings. I reiterate, Jesus was not perfect. He was human. He was without sin. So all that proves is that drinking is not considered a sin in the eyes of God.

[xsecx]

It is not necessarily true that Jesus is flawless. Jesus has human characteristics as well. Humans are by nature flawed. Jesus had both divinity (miracles) and human flaws (drinking). Jesus came down to teach us how to live. Not one of his sermons told us we need to drink. He taught us things like loving thy neighbor not drinking thy wine. His actions did not always reflect what he taught. He taught us to turn the other cheek, yet in the temple he flipped out and destroyed the little market they had going on. So drinking was not fundamental to his teachings. I reiterate, Jesus was not perfect. He was human. He was without sin. So all that proves is that drinking is not considered a sin in the eyes of God.

Jesus was either without sin AND perfect, or he was neither. You can't be human and sinless. You also can't be human and have no physical father and come from a virgin birth or create miracles. There is a logical paradox in believing that jesus is wrong and you are right. Or even that jesus had the capacity to be wrong. That's the pisser about being christian, it really does have to be an all or nothing kind of thing. Jesus either was something or he wasn't. He can't be kinda godlike. He's either god or he isn't. The same paradox happens with people who think eating meat is wrong and are christian.

[xbatmanx]

Jesus was either without sin AND perfect, or he was neither. You can't be human and sinless. You also can't be human and have no physical father and come from a virgin birth or create miracles. There is a logical paradox in believing that jesus is wrong and you are right. Or even that jesus had the capacity to be wrong. That's the pisser about being christian, it really does have to be an all or nothing kind of thing. Jesus either was something or he wasn't. He can't be kinda godlike. He's either god or he isn't. The same paradox happens with people who think eating meat is wrong and are christian.
No, this is what we refer to as the "duality of Jesus." He was given human nature in order to suffer. Suffer for our sins specifically. I'm also vegan and I don't see a paradox with being both Christian and vegan.

[xsecx]

No, this is what we refer to as the "duality of Jesus." He was given human nature in order to suffer. Suffer for our sins specifically. I'm also vegan and I don't see a paradox with being both Christian and vegan.

He was given human nature, but was still without sin. Unless you're going to try and explain to me how jesus did sin and wasn't perfect. Or if he didn't sin, but then somehow wasn't perfect.

Ok. so you think that eating meat is wrong, but you don't see the paradox in saying that Jesus was wrong? That your opinion on an issue can be different from your god?

[xbatmanx]

He was given human nature, but was still without sin. Unless you're going to try and explain to me how jesus did sin and wasn't perfect. Or if he didn't sin, but then somehow wasn't perfect.

Ok. so you think that eating meat is wrong, but you don't see the paradox in saying that Jesus was wrong? That your opinion on an issue can be different from your god?
A person without sin does not make one a perfect person. Jesus disobeyed Mary, he fell when he carried the cross, he was weak at times. This is the human side of it. Sin is a crime against God basically. If you don't believe in the duality of Jesus that's fine, it's what Christians believe. Christianity is a faith-based religion. I can't argue points of faith with you because we have different beliefs. It's kind of that you either have faith or you don't, ya know?
And as far as eating meat, how about the passage in Genesis where God gives us dominion over animals. As a king has dominion over his people (hence the word kingdom). That does not entitle the king to exploit or eat the people of his kingdom. A good king nurtures his kingdom. I will not claim that the Bible does not have it's contradictions though. But I do keep in mind that despite divine intervention, it was written by the hand of man. And even still it has been translated and edited over and over for close to 2000 years. Something is bound to get lost in translation.

[xsecx]

A person without sin does not make one a perfect person. Jesus disobeyed Mary, he fell when he carried the cross, he was weak at times. This is the human side of it. Sin is a crime against God basically. If you don't believe in the duality of Jesus that's fine, it's what Christians believe. Christianity is a faith-based religion. I can't argue points of faith with you because we have different beliefs. It's kind of that you either have faith or you don't, ya know?
And as far as eating meat, how about the passage in Genesis where God gives us dominion over animals. As a king has dominion over his people (hence the word kingdom). That does not entitle the king to exploit or eat the people of his kingdom. A good king nurtures his kingdom. I will not claim that the Bible does not have it's contradictions though. But I do keep in mind that despite divine intervention, it was written by the hand of man. And even still it has been translated and edited over and over for close to 2000 years. Something is bound to get lost in translation.

without sin means without fault. All faults are a crime against god. Which is why jesus is held as an example. What you just listed as examples would in fact be sins. If Jesus disobeyed mary, then he commited a sin and broken a commandment. Now if jesus is divine, then he is perfect, because god is perfect. Now if you don't think god is perfect then there are issues.

Jesus fed people loaves and fishes. You are saying that eating fish is wrong and that jesus is wrong. Jesus is divine and can't be wrong. and surely you a simple human, who isn't divine can't be right when god is wrong? How can you not recognize that there is a major paradox there? How can your opinion and the opinion of your GOD on an issue differ?

[xbatmanx]

without sin means without fault. All faults are a crime against god. Which is why jesus is held as an example. What you just listed as examples would in fact be sins. If Jesus disobeyed mary, then he commited a sin and broken a commandment. Now if jesus is divine, then he is perfect, because god is perfect. Now if you don't think god is perfect then there are issues.

Jesus fed people loaves and fishes. You are saying that eating fish is wrong and that jesus is wrong. Jesus is divine and can't be wrong. and surely you a simple human, who isn't divine can't be right when god is wrong? How can you not recognize that there is a major paradox there? How can your opinion and the opinion of your GOD on an issue differ?
According to Webster's this is the def. of sin:
1 a : an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT
2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
One can only assume that since the Bible speaks of the Law of God that we can exclude definition 1c from what we are considering sin in this case. Especially since we also need to consider the duality of Jesus. Without sin does not necessarily mean without fault. Imagine that you accidentally rear end a car. You are at fault. It's not a sin though. True that disobeying his mother was against the Ten Commandments, but he disobeyed her to obey God his father. What happens when one parent says one thing and another parent says another? I'd probably go with obeying God in that case.

Ok now as for veganism. First I'd like to reiterate that there are contradictions throughout the Bible on all different issues. This may be due to constant editing and translating. For instance, my thought on the line "I will hold true the law of man in Heaven." or whatever the exact quote is is that may have been added in there by some King or other political figurehead at some point in history because if the law of man goes against the law of God which it seems to do sometimes, then what does one do?
That being said, there are other factors that I believe do not conflict with veganism. Aside from what I said about Genesis in a previous post there is also a verse in Revelations where the Angel is condemning those who eat meat.
As for fish, it is believed that the fish in the Bible stories is symbolic. The Greek word for fish (Ichthys) was used as an acronym which in Greek stood for "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour." The term "meat" in greek translates to nutrients in General. This is noted in Genesis as well where God says "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed: to you it shall be for meat."

[xsecx]

According to Webster's this is the def. of sin:
1 a : an offense against religious or moral law b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food> c : an often serious shortcoming : FAULT
2 a : transgression of the law of God b : a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God
One can only assume that since the Bible speaks of the Law of God that we can exclude definition 1c from what we are considering sin in this case. Especially since we also need to consider the duality of Jesus. Without sin does not necessarily mean without fault. Imagine that you accidentally rear end a car. You are at fault. It's not a sin though. True that disobeying his mother was against the Ten Commandments, but he disobeyed her to obey God his father. What happens when one parent says one thing and another parent says another? I'd probably go with obeying God in that case.


If you notice 2b, it would mean without fault. God is perfect, unless you want to try and explain to me how it isn't. It would also mean that when you do something against gods will, ie bad, that you would be commiting a sin. So unless you can come up with a giant list of what is and isn't a sin. The end of the day you're still left with saying that Jesus was wrong or capable of being wrong which puts your whole religion into the shitter.



Ok now as for veganism. First I'd like to reiterate that there are contradictions throughout the Bible on all different issues. This may be due to constant editing and translating. For instance, my thought on the line "I will hold true the law of man in Heaven." or whatever the exact quote is is that may have been added in there by some King or other political figurehead at some point in history because if the law of man goes against the law of God which it seems to do sometimes, then what does one do?
That being said, there are other factors that I believe do not conflict with veganism. Aside from what I said about Genesis in a previous post there is also a verse in Revelations where the Angel is condemning those who eat meat.
As for fish, it is believed that the fish in the Bible stories is symbolic. The Greek word for fish (Ichthys) was used as an acronym which in Greek stood for "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour." The term "meat" in greek translates to nutrients in General. This is noted in Genesis as well where God says "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed: to you it shall be for meat."

Or it has to do with the fact that it's poorly written, not consistant, not true and flawed. I don't think you quite realize that even if are going to try and say that it's due to translation that it's wrong, then you're saying that the whole book could be wrong. That's also saying that the translations wouldn't be guided by god, since it's his word, which introduced a whole new set of problem. The attempt to think that they're not talking about actual fish is to ignore the history and culture of the time. This just isn't accurate and there's no basis to believe it. The fish symbol was used for worship in secret. It serves no purpose to be written in the bible, nor does it make sense as symbolism in lines like luke 24
He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them. 44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 "You are witnesses of these things. 49 "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."

[xbatmanx]

So God made humans who are not perfect. In our very being, according to what your saying we are sin. Because we are flawed we are constantly sinning. Then according to you, we are all damned. If I am bad at math, that is a flaw. Is it a sin against God to be bad at math? That is the duality of Jesus. Like I said, I can't make you believe the duality of Jesus, but it is what Christians believe. At one point in my life I believed this argument to be a cop out. Certain things have happened that have lead me to have faith, including the duality theory. So certainly my argument will not work with a non-Christian, because it is a difference in beliefs and something that may not be proven on this earth.

Like I said before, there is no denying that there are contradictions in the Bible. Some passages of the bible would lead one to believe that we were meant to live a vegan lifestyle, others contradict that.

[xsecx]

So God made humans who are not perfect. In our very being, according to what your saying we are sin. Because we are flawed we are constantly sinning. Then according to you, we are all damned. If I am bad at math, that is a flaw. Is it a sin against God to be bad at math? That is the duality of Jesus. Like I said, I can't make you believe the duality of Jesus, but it is what Christians believe. At one point in my life I believed this argument to be a cop out. Certain things have happened that have lead me to have faith, including the duality theory. So certainly my argument will not work with a non-Christian, because it is a difference in beliefs and something that may not be proven on this earth.


come on, you're the christian, you should know this stuff. all humans are constantly sinning. They ahve since they were kicked out of the garden of eden. That's what made Jesus special and unique, he was without sin. So jesus was either god in the flesh, or he was human and flawed. The duality concept is flawed and a copout and biblically inaccurate.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.




Like I said before, there is no denying that there are contradictions in the Bible. Some passages of the bible would lead one to believe that we were meant to live a vegan lifestyle, others contradict that.

even if you take that into account, the basis of christianity would be to live as jesus does, which would be to at least eat fish.

[xbatmanx]

come on, you're the christian, you should know this stuff. all humans are constantly sinning. They ahve since they were kicked out of the garden of eden. That's what made Jesus special and unique, he was without sin. So jesus was either god in the flesh, or he was human and flawed. The duality concept is flawed and a copout and biblically inaccurate.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
But since when do faults like car accidents and stuff like that constitute sin? humans are born with original sin and supposed to be trying not to sin. however, God is merciful and forgiving if we repent. but i don't think we're debating that. fine, you believe the duality concept to be a copou just like i told you i once did. end of argument right there, we have two different fundamental beliefs right there which is why neither of us can prove the other wrong. the duality of jesus, for me explains why one can be both sxe and Christian. For you, the lack of duality is why one can not be both sxe and Christian. and i'm not going to convert anyone, i don't do that. but also, this thread isn't about trying to disprove Christianity but only to show whether or not you can be both Christian and sxe. basically in order to understand why Christians believe they can be both Christian and sxe you need to see it from a Christian's point of view.




even if you take that into account, the basis of christianity would be to live as jesus does, which would be to at least eat fish.
If that was to be taken literally, we'd all have to be carpenters too.

[nowtheworld]

Ok, wow. Let's all take a step back and re-visit the words of Mackaye from the song Out of Step, "There's no set of rules". So I ask, where'd the rules come from?

Also, where did the idea of wrong and right come from? Mackaye even talks about how you can't say things are wrong or right,
"good guys bad guys which is which?
the white collar worker or digger in the ditch
man who's to say who's the better man".

[xsecx]

But since when do faults like car accidents and stuff like that constitute sin? humans are born with original sin and supposed to be trying not to sin. however, God is merciful and forgiving if we repent. but i don't think we're debating that. fine, you believe the duality concept to be a copou just like i told you i once did. end of argument right there, we have two different fundamental beliefs right there which is why neither of us can prove the other wrong. the duality of jesus, for me explains why one can be both sxe and Christian. For you, the lack of duality is why one can not be both sxe and Christian. and i'm not going to convert anyone, i don't do that. but also, this thread isn't about trying to disprove Christianity but only to show whether or not you can be both Christian and sxe. basically in order to understand why Christians believe they can be both Christian and sxe you need to see it from a Christian's point of view.


What causes car accidents? And are you going to tell me that behavior isn't a sin? The concept of duality doesn't actually have anything to do with what we're talking about. You're still left with the paradox of thinking that something jesus did was wrong. Now, what's an example of something that's wrong but not a sin? How are you in a place to judge jesus?




If that was to be taken literally, we'd all have to be carpenters too.

no, you just couldn't say that being a carpenter was wrong.

[xsecx]

Ok, wow. Let's all take a step back and re-visit the words of Mackaye from the song Out of Step, "There's no set of rules". So I ask, where'd the rules come from?

Also, where did the idea of wrong and right come from? Mackaye even talks about how you can't say things are wrong or right,
"good guys bad guys which is which?
the white collar worker or digger in the ditch
man who's to say who's the better man".

if you're going to go that route, then let's take a step back and read the lyrics to filler. It's not a matter of rules. it's a matter of conflicting beliefs. This isn't even getting into the very real argument that christianity and subcultures don't mix.

Minor Threat - Filler Lyrics

What happened to you? You're not the same. Something in your
head made a
violent change.
It's in your head. Filler.
You call it religion. You're full of shit.
Was she really worth it? She cost you your life. You'll never
leave her
side. She's gonna be your wife.
You call it romance. You're full of shit.
You're brain is clay. What's going on? You picked up a bible.
And now
you're gone.
You call it religion. You're full of shit.
Filler.

[xbatmanx]

What causes car accidents? And are you going to tell me that behavior isn't a sin? The concept of duality doesn't actually have anything to do with what we're talking about. You're still left with the paradox of thinking that something jesus did was wrong. Now, what's an example of something that's wrong but not a sin? How are you in a place to judge jesus?
I think I'm arguing the wrong thing here. What I should be saying is why should it matter to me what I call myself or if a bunch of sxe kids would accept me? And why am I arguing with someone who wouldn't have me anyway? My beliefs are my own and I stand by them. I am Christian. I am part of the hardcore scene. I am drug-free. If the entire straight edge community says that I can not be both sxe and Christian then so be it. It doesn't mean I'm going to go out and drink and smoke and do drugs. It just means one less label I have on myself. I'm 25 years old, I don't know why I'm arguing over a label. It's not like without this label my friends won't accept me and I will no longer be a part of the hardcore scene that I've been a part of for 10 years now.
And sometimes slick roads cause car accidents. Failure to be able to act in time. Neither of which is considered a sin. So it is possible to be wrong but not have sinned.
And you want to quote filler, but in another thread you say that sxe has evolved away from what Ian had said. We don't hear any lyrics about issues with sex so sex isn't included in sxe anymore. I don't hear any lyrics about religion anymore so has that evolved?

[xsecx]

I think I'm arguing the wrong thing here. What I should be saying is why should it matter to me what I call myself or if a bunch of sxe kids would accept me? And why am I arguing with someone who wouldn't have me anyway? My beliefs are my own and I stand by them. I am Christian. I am part of the hardcore scene. I am drug-free. If the entire straight edge community says that I can not be both sxe and Christian then so be it. It doesn't mean I'm going to go out and drink and smoke and do drugs. It just means one less label I have on myself. I'm 25 years old, I don't know why I'm arguing over a label. It's not like without this label my friends won't accept me and I will no longer be a part of the hardcore scene that I've been a part of for 10 years now.
And sometimes slick roads cause car accidents. Failure to be able to act in time. Neither of which is considered a sin. So it is possible to be wrong but not have sinned.
And you want to quote filler, but in another thread you say that sxe has evolved away from what Ian had said. We don't hear any lyrics about issues with sex so sex isn't included in sxe anymore. I don't hear any lyrics about religion anymore so has that evolved?

Why shouldn't you able to look at your own beliefs and reconcile them. To be a good christian, you can't be in opposition of god. So instead of living your life in accordance to your beliefs, you want to change things to suit you rather than changing yourself to fit your belief structure. You are putting yourself above god and saying that you know better than god. This has nothing to do with straight edge and everything to do with being a christian. The beliefs of christianity simply do not blend with straight edge, however other religions don't have this issue.

and if you actually read the post, you'd notice that I wasn't the one that brought Ian into this and used the filler lyrics as an example that if we were going to go down that road, then christianity has no place here as well as any other religion.

[nowtheworld]

Just because someone he knew became religious and he didn't like it doesn't mean it's a "rule" of straight edge, it just means he didn't like it. Same goes for the other lyrics too I guess, he just didn't like drinking, or drugs. So I'm still confused on where the rules came from, however I haven't read pages and pages of history on "straight edge" so who knows what I've missed...

Is it really "wrong" to drink? Is this just your opinion on it? Maybe it's dumb? Stupidity isn't "wrong".

[xsecx]

Just because someone he knew became religious and he didn't like it doesn't mean it's a "rule" of straight edge, it just means he didn't like it. Same goes for the other lyrics too I guess, he just didn't like drinking, or drugs. So I'm still confused on where the rules came from, however I haven't read pages and pages of history on "straight edge" so who knows what I've missed...

Is it really "wrong" to drink? Is this just your opinion on it? Maybe it's dumb? Stupidity isn't "wrong".

the rule that you're trying to talk about isn't a rule. it's a conflict of the 2 beliefs.

and yes, if you're going to go to the point of saying you're straight edge, you're saying that it's wrong to drink. by caling it stupidy you're just playing word games to try and get around saying wrong, but meaning the same thing.

[Old_Man_sxe]

Even in Christianity there are elitist saying “this is the way it is”, just like in the sxe scene. Truth be known, they are full of crap in both sects. What a waste of time it is to ponder this case. You can be Christian & sxe. To hell with any elitist that says otherwise. You have nothing to prove except what’s in your heart. Just the fact that you made 2 great life choices (sxe, faith), makes you a stand up person in my books.


Now we’ll feel the disgust from those that want us to submit, find fault & confuse us.

[SgtD]

Even in Christianity there are elitist saying “this is the way it is”, just like in the sxe scene. Truth be known, they are full of crap in both sects. What a waste of time it is to ponder this case. You can be Christian & sxe. To hell with any elitist that says otherwise. You have nothing to prove except what’s in your heart. Just the fact that you made 2 great life choices (sxe, faith), makes you a stand up person in my books.


Now we’ll feel the disgust from those that want us to submit, find fault & confuse us.
seriously, you don't see the contradiction at all?

[xsecx]

Even in Christianity there are elitist saying “this is the way it is”, just like in the sxe scene. Truth be known, they are full of crap in both sects. What a waste of time it is to ponder this case. You can be Christian & sxe. To hell with any elitist that says otherwise. You have nothing to prove except what’s in your heart. Just the fact that you made 2 great life choices (sxe, faith), makes you a stand up person in my books.


Now we’ll feel the disgust from those that want us to submit, find fault & confuse us.

so when asked to provide support for your statements, you can't do it. How is it a waste of time to look at your beliefs and your life and see what fits and what doesn't? Which is more important to you, your faith or your beliefs? In your case, it's pretty clear that you don't have much of an understanding of either.

[xbatmanx]

No really, for me, not drinking is a personal choice. It's not inherently immoral to drink in moderation. That is my belief and if you can prove to me that that is not straight edge then I will concede.
And that is how I can reconcile my beliefs, btw. I am not against others drinking safely and in moderation. So according to my beliefs Jesus was not wrong anyway. According to YOUR beliefs maybe.

[xsecx]

No really, for me, not drinking is a personal choice. It's not inherently immoral to drink in moderation. That is my belief and if you can prove to me that that is not straight edge then I will concede.
And that is how I can reconcile my beliefs, btw. I am not against others drinking safely and in moderation. So according to my beliefs Jesus was not wrong anyway. According to YOUR beliefs maybe.

if it's not immoral, then why don't you do it, and then why would you align yourself with a movement that clearly believes that it is?

[xbatmanx]

if it's not immoral, then why don't you do it, and then why would you align yourself with a movement that clearly believes that it is?
I don't do it because it is wrong for me. It stands in the way of my goals. And like I asked in my last post: please prove where sxe says that anyone else drinking in moderation is immoral and that sxe is not a personal choice.

[xsecx]

I don't do it because it is wrong for me. It stands in the way of my goals. And like I asked in my last post: please prove where sxe says that anyone else drinking in moderation is immoral and that sxe is not a personal choice.

Because straight edge doesn't advocate moderation. Unless you want to try and argue that it does then be my guest.

Also how is it wrong for you, but right for other people? And again, if that's the case then why would you align yourself with a group that clearly believes that drinking, all drinking is wrong.

[xbatmanx]

Because straight edge doesn't advocate moderation. Unless you want to try and argue that it does then be my guest.

Also how is it wrong for you, but right for other people? And again, if that's the case then why would you align yourself with a group that clearly believes that drinking, all drinking is wrong.
No, it doesn't advocate moderation, you're right. But I've never met a person who drinks in moderation and calls themselves sxe.
It is wrong for me because it doesn't fall in line with my goals. It may be right for someone else because it's what they want to do.
And I'm still waiting for proof that straight edge is more than a personal choice.

[xsecx]

No, it doesn't advocate moderation, you're right. But I've never met a person who drinks in moderation and calls themselves sxe.
It is wrong for me because it doesn't fall in line with my goals. It may be right for someone else because it's what they want to do.
And I'm still waiting for proof that straight edge is more than a personal choice.

Ok. so it doesn't advocate moderation and makes pretty strong and repeated statements on the evil/immorally of alcohol, but you're waiting on me to prove what to you? I can bring up a fuckload of lyrics if you'd like. So how can it be right for someone else? Can you find me anything that says "i'm straight edge, I think drinking is bad for me, but alcohol is a-ok for everyone else"

and I'm not even sure what you're asking for in terms of proof that straight edge is more than a personal choice? What does a personal choice mean to you? What kind of choice isn't personal in terms of lifestyle? I notice you're not trying to prove that straight edge isn't saying that drinking is wrong, so I guess you concede then, huh.

[xbatmanx]

Can you find me anything that says "i'm straight edge, I think drinking is bad for me, but alcohol is a-ok for everyone else"
Yes, yes I can. Ian Mackaye on his non-edge friends in an interview dated Jan. 3,
1996: "They respected our decision, and they were our friends. It was more about respecting each others individual choices, rather than getting totally obsessed with distractions." He goes on to talk about how some people took it to militant extremes. Then he says "From my point of view, I am not interested in intolerance. I am interested in respect for people's decisions in their lives. I have my own opinions, and I live my own fucking life by those opinions." He then goes on to say that he thought "vegetarianism was a logical step for straight edge." However he explains that when he speaks about straight edge, he is speaking about HIS OWN IDEAS on straight edge and he's not trying to start rules.
So why is it that the person who originally got the ball rolling for sxe can say that it's not about passing judgement, it's about what's right for yourself and just to respect others decisions but somehow you feel like you can define straight edge for others?
If I'm not mistaken, the whole straight edge thing started as an "f the status quo" thing. It came out of punk/hardcore kids who weren't into getting stoned and drunk and were tired of getting made fun of by people for it. Now they had a place to go and a community. Some militants took it further. I've been to places where my friends have knocked beer out of people's hands just because. I've seen edge kids start fist fights with people because they were smoking a cigarette. Does this mean that if you're not kicking everyone with a beer or cigarette's ass that you're not straight edge?
So if the beliefs that I hold don't fall in line with your beliefs on Dusty Edge... sorry I mean Straight Edge, then that's not the end of the world. I will continue to call myself Straight Edge if I so choose. I didn't associate myself with straight edge in order to recieve criticism from some militant sxe kids, or a 28 year old man in your case. I did it in order to disassociate myself with people our age who go to the bar every weekend.
So back to topic, yes, it is possible to be Christian and Straight Edge simultaneously. It does not contradict itself.




and I'm not even sure what you're asking for in terms of proof that straight edge is more than a personal choice? What does a personal choice mean to you? What kind of choice isn't personal in terms of lifestyle? I notice you're not trying to prove that straight edge isn't saying that drinking is wrong, so I guess you concede then, huh.
Personal choice in terms of what is good for you does not mean that others have to do it. Drinking is not good for me. It does not fit in with my goals or lifestyle. Therefore I am staunchly against alcohol or drugs entering into my body. You want to do it? Go ahead, I'll respect your decision.

And by the way, although I repeatedly asked you for evidence stating that the rules of straight edge include drinking being immoral, you have yet to present any. I don't want it, because it will just be one man or one band or a group of bands individual thoughts and interpretations of straight edge. For as many bands that you can come up with that preach militant straight edge beliefs, there are just as many straight edge bands that preach tolerance.

I am done with this argument. If you'd like to think that I concede then that's fine. I can not dissuade you from your beliefs just as you can not dissuade me from mine. But I hope that the original poster of this thread and those who were wondering whether or not you can be straight edge and Christian simultaneously learned something from this thread and will make their own decision. The question is "Can you be Christian and still justify calling yourself straight edge?" It is not "If you're Christian, will anyone else find fault with you being straight edge?"

[straightXed]

Yes, yes I can. Ian Mackaye on his non-edge friends in an interview dated Jan. 3,
1996: "They respected our decision, and they were our friends. It was more about respecting each others individual choices, rather than getting totally obsessed with distractions." He goes on to talk about how some people took it to militant extremes. Then he says "From my point of view, I am not interested in intolerance. I am interested in respect for people's decisions in their lives. I have my own opinions, and I live my own fucking life by those opinions." He then goes on to say that he thought "vegetarianism was a logical step for straight edge." However he explains that when he speaks about straight edge, he is speaking about HIS OWN IDEAS on straight edge and he's not trying to start rules.
So why is it that the person who originally got the ball rolling for sxe can say that it's not about passing judgement, it's about what's right for yourself and just to respect others decisions but somehow you feel like you can define straight edge for others?
If I'm not mistaken, the whole straight edge thing started as an "f the status quo" thing. It came out of punk/hardcore kids who weren't into getting stoned and drunk and were tired of getting made fun of by people for it. Now they had a place to go and a community. Some militants took it further. I've been to places where my friends have knocked beer out of people's hands just because. I've seen edge kids start fist fights with people because they were smoking a cigarette. Does this mean that if you're not kicking everyone with a beer or cigarette's ass that you're not straight edge?
So if the beliefs that I hold don't fall in line with your beliefs on Dusty Edge... sorry I mean Straight Edge, then that's not the end of the world. I will continue to call myself Straight Edge if I so choose. I didn't associate myself with straight edge in order to recieve criticism from some militant sxe kids, or a 28 year old man in your case. I did it in order to disassociate myself with people our age who go to the bar every weekend.
So back to topic, yes, it is possible to be Christian and Straight Edge simultaneously. It does not contradict itself.

Sorry but i'm failing to see who is being militant here and i'm failing to see where you have shown that anyone is saying that drinking is ok. Tollerating and accepting peoples decisions doesn't mean you feel they are ok or right - it just accepts the fact that you shouldn't go around beating people up for that decision. In 1996 iam mackaye hasn't really got much relavance in straightedge in terms of what the movement had grown into by that point, whilst he still talks about it not being about him trying to make rules the straightedge movement had become about certain things which were essentially rules. You can't drink and be straightedge thats pretty much a rule to its definition, with ian's personal idea it leaves it open to complete interpretation. Its his personal views but for 20 years there have been definite ideas/rules that the straightedge kids have agreed upon in terms of straightedge and that has constantly been reflected in the music.

You can can be straightedge and a christian that doesn't follow the life of a christian or a straightedge kid that drinks and follows the life of a christian - on both instances there is a definite contradiction.





Personal choice in terms of what is good for you does not mean that others have to do it. Drinking is not good for me. It does not fit in with my goals or lifestyle. Therefore I am staunchly against alcohol or drugs entering into my body. You want to do it? Go ahead, I'll respect your decision.

Yeah but i could personally call myself straightedge and then not follow the set out idea of living by the definition of what straightedge is thus making it a personal choice to be wrong, pretty much like you and the christian thing. When you make a personal choice to be straightedge you are adhering to a collective thought of the lifestyle, if you don't agree with how the straightedge movement pans out then you wouldn't or shouldn't choose to call yourself straightedge. And again respecting people for their descisions isn't you saying that its right, ok you can see how they got to their decision and you aren't about to beat them for their choices but i'm guessing you don't think its the best decision and that infact drinking isn't the right thing to do. Not everyone chooses straightedge but when they do it is a personal choice that connects you to something larger than personal thought, its collective thought and whilst it remains a personal choice for you to be a part of it, it is definitely defined by the actions and beleifs of the people involved. Thats why people can't call themselves straightedge and have the odd drink because whilst on a personal level they could it wouldn't work within the ideas behind the movement of straightedge.



And by the way, although I repeatedly asked you for evidence stating that the rules of straight edge include drinking being immoral, you have yet to present any. I don't want it, because it will just be one man or one band or a group of bands individual thoughts and interpretations of straight edge. For as many bands that you can come up with that preach militant straight edge beliefs, there are just as many straight edge bands that preach tolerance.

Tollerance isn't the issue, they still aren't saying drinking is ok, this isn't a millitant topic here, its funny how you complain that theres no evidence and then say you don't want any evidence because its wrong.


I am done with this argument. If you'd like to think that I concede then that's fine. I can not dissuade you from your beliefs just as you can not dissuade me from mine. But I hope that the original poster of this thread and those who were wondering whether or not you can be straight edge and Christian simultaneously learned something from this thread and will make their own decision. The question is "Can you be Christian and still justify calling yourself straight edge?" It is not "If you're Christian, will anyone else find fault with you being straight edge?"

And the answer to both is no, not really. You decided to turn it as more of a personal thing when people find illogical flaws in your beliefs but you should be open to people finding fault in them unless you wish to live with fault and continually turn a blind eye to it. Not very christian by its nature but there you go. I think the reason you conceded was you were unable to provide a solid argument from what i read, i feel it remains that the two contradict each other.

[xsecx]

Yes, yes I can. Ian Mackaye on his non-edge friends in an interview dated Jan. 3,
1996: "They respected our decision, and they were our friends. It was more about respecting each others individual choices, rather than getting totally obsessed with distractions." He goes on to talk about how some people took it to militant extremes. Then he says "From my point of view, I am not interested in intolerance. I am interested in respect for people's decisions in their lives. I have my own opinions, and I live my own fucking life by those opinions." He then goes on to say that he thought "vegetarianism was a logical step for straight edge." However he explains that when he speaks about straight edge, he is speaking about HIS OWN IDEAS on straight edge and he's not trying to start rules.
So why is it that the person who originally got the ball rolling for sxe can say that it's not about passing judgement, it's about what's right for yourself and just to respect others decisions but somehow you feel like you can define straight edge for others?
If I'm not mistaken, the whole straight edge thing started as an "f the status quo" thing. It came out of punk/hardcore kids who weren't into getting stoned and drunk and were tired of getting made fun of by people for it. Now they had a place to go and a community. Some militants took it further. I've been to places where my friends have knocked beer out of people's hands just because. I've seen edge kids start fist fights with people because they were smoking a cigarette. Does this mean that if you're not kicking everyone with a beer or cigarette's ass that you're not straight edge?
So if the beliefs that I hold don't fall in line with your beliefs on Dusty Edge... sorry I mean Straight Edge, then that's not the end of the world. I will continue to call myself Straight Edge if I so choose. I didn't associate myself with straight edge in order to recieve criticism from some militant sxe kids, or a 28 year old man in your case. I did it in order to disassociate myself with people our age who go to the bar every weekend.
So back to topic, yes, it is possible to be Christian and Straight Edge simultaneously. It does not contradict itself.



I know this is a hard concept to get your head around, but respecting the choices of others isn't the same as condoning them or agreeing with them. At no point is anyone who's straightedge are they saying, "yes I think drinking is great and everyone but me should do it". Of course we don't. And the reason we don't is because we all agree that drinking is wrong, but we also think that enforcing those beliefs isn't right or practical. So you associate with straight edge because you don't want to associate yourself with people who go to bars every weekend, but you're somehow going to try and say that you respect their choices?




Personal choice in terms of what is good for you does not mean that others have to do it. Drinking is not good for me. It does not fit in with my goals or lifestyle. Therefore I am staunchly against alcohol or drugs entering into my body. You want to do it? Go ahead, I'll respect your decision.


so much so that you refuse to associate with them? Do you think the world would be a better place without alcohol or drugs? Or would it not be any different?



And by the way, although I repeatedly asked you for evidence stating that the rules of straight edge include drinking being immoral, you have yet to present any. I don't want it, because it will just be one man or one band or a group of bands individual thoughts and interpretations of straight edge. For as many bands that you can come up with that preach militant straight edge beliefs, there are just as many straight edge bands that preach tolerance.


Well no, you repeatedly asked for evidence that it's not a personal choice. Which, since it's a lifestyle, really isn't possible, since all lifestyles are personal choices. I've asked you for examples of people edge bands promoting drinking, and the best you can do is come up with an interview with a guy who has said repeatedly that he never wanted to start a movement, doesn't like what it's become and has had nothing to do with it for 20 years. The reality of the situation is that straight edge DOES believe that drinking is wrong and immoral. If we didn't, we'd all drink moderately. but we don't. WE all agree that drinking is wrong and that it's a distraction. You can try and play word games all you want, but it still leaves you back at the exact same place.



I am done with this argument. If you'd like to think that I concede then that's fine. I can not dissuade you from your beliefs just as you can not dissuade me from mine. But I hope that the original poster of this thread and those who were wondering whether or not you can be straight edge and Christian simultaneously learned something from this thread and will make their own decision. The question is "Can you be Christian and still justify calling yourself straight edge?" It is not "If you're Christian, will anyone else find fault with you being straight edge?"

The actual question is, can I be a good christian and be at odds with the behavior of my own god? The answer to that is pretty obvious. You still haven't gotten around the fact and issue that by your own admission you think something your god did was wrong. Or at the very least something you wouldn't do yourself (word game)

[collin]

You can can be straightedge and a christian that doesn't follow the life of a christian or a straightedge kid that drinks and follows the life of a christian - on both instances there is a definite contradiction.
i missed the part of christian life that says you have to drink. seriously, christian lifestyle doesn't conflict with sXe lifestyle.

[xbatmanx]

i missed the part of christian life that says you have to drink. seriously, christian lifestyle doesn't conflict with sXe lifestyle.
Drunkenness (note: I'm not saying drinking) is considered a sin and mentioned several times in the Bible. But I'm still done with the arguing part.

[collin]

Drunkenness (note: I'm not saying drinking) is considered a sin and mentioned several times in the Bible. But I'm still done with the arguing part.
exactly. and jesus wasn't drunk...

[straightXed]

i missed the part of christian life that says you have to drink. seriously, christian lifestyle doesn't conflict with sXe lifestyle.

The beliefs do contradict each other, cvhristianity doesn't have a problem with drinking straightedge does. To be both you would be saying that one or the other beliefs are wrong about drinking.

[straightXed]

exactly. and jesus wasn't drunk...

missing the point aren't you, you are straightedge because youbelieve drinking is wrong and that is not the belief put forth in christianity, so they contradict each other.

[xsecx]

Drunkenness (note: I'm not saying drinking) is considered a sin and mentioned several times in the Bible. But I'm still done with the arguing part.

if you're done with the arguing part, then why continue to post? Clearly points have been raised that you simply can't or don't want to answer.

[neverbackdown]

I think you guys are interpretting the Bible too literally. The church stopped the tedious practice of following every detail found in the scripture in the Dark Ages. Even Protestantism rejects strict adherence to scripture and is based on the principle of salvation by faith alone, in other words, faith in Christ is all that matters. Refusing to drink is in no way a rejection of Christianity. Most churches even substitute grape juice for wine when giving communion because they're purpose is not to encourage the consumption of alcohol. Such a substitution isn't considered a rejection of religious tradition. The Puritans and other more strict protestant sects forebid the cosnumption of alcohol as a sin.
My point is this, Christianity (as well as other religions, I'd imagine) are based more on morality, charity, and faith, not obscure details that have no bearing on the modern Christian's faith and worship. The way some people base their entire understanding and subsequent condemnation of religion on these details is the kind of stuff that makes sXe look like a bunch of militants and radicals and totally goes against the way sXe is supposed to accept anyone that has had enough of everyone around them destroying each other with drugs, smokes, and booze.
Christianity has the potential to help an individual become a better person, and I think some people here are forgetting that the real enemy has gotta be people who wanna drive everyone to be drunk and high.

[xsecx]

I think you guys are interpretting the Bible too literally. The church stopped the tedious practice of following every detail found in the scripture in the Dark Ages. Even Protestantism rejects strict adherence to scripture and is based on the principle of salvation by faith alone, in other words, faith in Christ is all that matters. Refusing to drink is in no way a rejection of Christianity. Most churches even substitute grape juice for wine when giving communion because they're purpose is not to encourage the consumption of alcohol. Such a substitution isn't considered a rejection of religious tradition. The Puritans and other more strict protestant sects forebid the cosnumption of alcohol as a sin.
My point is this, Christianity (as well as other religions, I'd imagine) are based more on morality, charity, and faith, not obscure details that have no bearing on the modern Christian's faith and worship. The way some people base their entire understanding and subsequent condemnation of religion on these details is the kind of stuff that makes sXe look like a bunch of militants and radicals and totally goes against the way sXe is supposed to accept anyone that has had enough of everyone around them destroying each other with drugs, smokes, and booze.
Christianity has the potential to help an individual become a better person, and I think some people here are forgetting that the real enemy has gotta be people who wanna drive everyone to be drunk and high.

so you thinking christ is wrong is somehow an obscure detail?

[straightXed]

I think you guys are interpretting the Bible too literally. The church stopped the tedious practice of following every detail found in the scripture in the Dark Ages. Even Protestantism rejects strict adherence to scripture and is based on the principle of salvation by faith alone, in other words, faith in Christ is all that matters.

So evangelical christianity stopped in the dark ages, interesting but wrong.


Refusing to drink is in no way a rejection of Christianity. Most churches even substitute grape juice for wine when giving communion because they're purpose is not to encourage the consumption of alcohol. Such a substitution isn't considered a rejection of religious tradition. The Puritans and other more strict protestant sects forebid the cosnumption of alcohol as a sin.

So they are replacing what originally was wine, why was it originally wine and when did god change this? Or was it changed by people who wanted their religious belief to tie in better with their lifestyle? If christianity now says alcohol is wrong to consume at all then could you show evidence for this?



My point is this, Christianity (as well as other religions, I'd imagine) are based more on morality, charity, and faith, not obscure details that have no bearing on the modern Christian's faith and worship.

It seems like its based on what conveniently suits them and they pick and choose when the details matter and when they don't. I mean the bible is either right or wrong because if you just take bits and discard others then the whole basis of your belief is under scrutiny and the bible ceases to hold any weight as the word of god.



The way some people base their entire understanding and subsequent condemnation of religion on these details is the kind of stuff that makes sXe look like a bunch of militants and radicals and totally goes against the way sXe is supposed to accept anyone that has had enough of everyone around them destroying each other with drugs, smokes, and booze.

So how is pointing out contradicting ideas at all militant or radical?


Christianity has the potential to help an individual become a better person, and I think some people here are forgetting that the real enemy has gotta be people who wanna drive everyone to be drunk and high.

Christianity also has the potential to make an individual a homophobic, intollerant person that reacts terribly whenever their religion is questioned. It also gives way to a lot of strange indoctrination of beliefs and attitudes in younger people.

[neverbackdown]

no, the obscure detail is the fact that christ drank wine (which was different from todays alcohol), if you believ that was wrong, thats your perrogative. But just because you choose not to do it doesnt mean you have to reject christianity and its teachings. Like i said, there are many christian sects that consider alcohol consumption a damning offense Puritans, Quakers, Amish, ect. My choosing not to drink is not equivalent to saying Christ was misleading and therefore not fit to follow. If you must, however, consider a strict interpretation, then understand that it is doctrine of the Catholic (who in early christian times was the first to establish these principles) church that christ was an extension of God placed on earth to experience the temptations and torments (ie "alcohol" consumption) as well as the need to repent those offenses that which allows us forgiveness for our sins. Christ was put here to be imperfect. Saying Christ was wrong in drinking is not going against the church, but understanding that christ was simply an intentionally imperfect part of God's plan.
Again, however, honroing strictly the tradition of bread and wine at communion is in no way a principle of worship for christians as substitutes are given at pretty much any church you go to. Christianity is based on faith, repentance, and respect for the 10 commandments, not drinking, or getting drunk. Saying "drinking is wrong and i refuse to do it" is not the same as "Christ was evil due to the wine at the last supper, therefore i cannot embrace the truly important aspects of faith"

[xbatmanx]

if you're done with the arguing part, then why continue to post? Clearly points have been raised that you simply can't or don't want to answer.
What I posted there was not part of what we were arguing. It was just a random comment that had relevance to the topic. See how we were not arguing that drunkenness was a sin, we were arguing drinking itself being wrong. I didn't know that just because I was done with the argument that I wasn't allowed to post anymore. And see how I made that little note in there? It's not that points have been raised that I can't or don't want to answer, it's just that the same points keep getting raised.


so you thinking christ is wrong is somehow an obscure detail?
I don't think he said that. There are certain things in the Bible that Christianity considers dogma. And there is certain things in the Bible that Christianity concedes is open for interpretation. Jesus drinking wine is not dogma. So even if I do think drinking for everyone is wrong, I can interpret Jesus drinking wine as symbolic. It would make sense to me that since Jesus taught in parables, there is a possibility that his disciples could also write the gospels in parable.
Scholars and theologians study the Bible for a living. I find it amazing that you are an expert in both straight edge and Christianity.
And by the way, how many straight edgers does it take to make a straight edge rule? Cause this thread seems pretty evenly divided.


Christianity also has the potential to make an individual a homophobic, intollerant person that reacts terribly whenever their religion is questioned. It also gives way to a lot of strange indoctrination of beliefs and attitudes in younger people.
Sounds a lot like hardline too.

[xsecx]

no, the obscure detail is the fact that christ drank wine (which was different from todays alcohol), if you believ that was wrong, thats your perrogative. But just because you choose not to do it doesnt mean you have to reject christianity and its teachings. Like i said, there are many christian sects that consider alcohol consumption a damning offense Puritans, Quakers, Amish, ect. My choosing not to drink is not equivalent to saying Christ was misleading and therefore not fit to follow. If you must, however, consider a strict interpretation, then understand that it is doctrine of the Catholic (who in early christian times was the first to establish these principles) church that christ was an extension of God placed on earth to experience the temptations and torments (ie "alcohol" consumption) as well as the need to repent those offenses that which allows us forgiveness for our sins. Christ was put here to be imperfect. Saying Christ was wrong in drinking is not going against the church, but understanding that christ was simply an intentionally imperfect part of God's plan.
Again, however, honroing strictly the tradition of bread and wine at communion is in no way a principle of worship for christians as substitutes are given at pretty much any church you go to. Christianity is based on faith, repentance, and respect for the 10 commandments, not drinking, or getting drunk. Saying "drinking is wrong and i refuse to do it" is not the same as "Christ was evil due to the wine at the last supper, therefore i cannot embrace the truly important aspects of faith"

so you're saying that not only was christ wrong, but that he was also a sinner? Saying drinking is wrong is saying that christ was wrong. You are putting yourself above the lord. unless you don't think jesus was the lord, or divine. Chosing not to do something isn't the same as saying something is immoral or wrong. By being straight edge, you're taking a very extreme stance and are in fact saying that the consumption of alcohol is wrong.

[straightXed]

Sounds a lot like hardline too.

And hardline isn't straight edge and has no relevence in this conversation, But it doesn't really sound like hardline anyway.

[xsecx]

What I posted there was not part of what we were arguing. It was just a random comment that had relevance to the topic. See how we were not arguing that drunkenness was a sin, we were arguing drinking itself being wrong. I didn't know that just because I was done with the argument that I wasn't allowed to post anymore. And see how I made that little note in there? It's not that points have been raised that I can't or don't want to answer, it's just that the same points keep getting raised.


If you don't want to actually discuss things and when you're in over your head and can't actually continue, what good are you? And of course it's not due to your inabilty to admit that you were actually wrong and haven't actually thought things out.



I don't think he said that. There are certain things in the Bible that Christianity considers dogma. And there is certain things in the Bible that Christianity concedes is open for interpretation. Jesus drinking wine is not dogma. So even if I do think drinking for everyone is wrong, I can interpret Jesus drinking wine as symbolic. It would make sense to me that since Jesus taught in parables, there is a possibility that his disciples could also write the gospels in parable.
Scholars and theologians study the Bible for a living. I find it amazing that you are an expert in both straight edge and Christianity.
And by the way, how many straight edgers does it take to make a straight edge rule? Cause this thread seems pretty evenly divided.


so you think drinking for everyone is wrong now? You can think lots of things are symbolic, but there's simply no reason to believe that jesus didn't drink alcohol. I find it amazing that someone who can't hold up a decent argument is going to try and make cheap shots about people being experts at things. Are you seriously so dense that you don't realize that this is a christian issue and not a "straight edge rule"?




Sounds a lot like hardline too.
good thing hardline was it's own seperate thing and is dead now then, huh.

[neverbackdown]

you guys got good points, and I'm tired of arguing. Christianity is a more important aspect to me than sxe EVER will be. If you can't accept people who see the good in both, so be it. But know that just because I find a lot of value in religion doesnt mean I'm gonna turn into a drunk.

[xbatmanx]

If you don't want to actually discuss things and when you're in over your head and can't actually continue, what good are you? And of course it's not due to your inabilty to admit that you were actually wrong and haven't actually thought things out.

Ok I guess we're going to keep going in this circular argument then since you're not willing to listen when people tell you what is what with their own religion.


so you think drinking for everyone is wrong now? You can think lots of things are symbolic, but there's simply no reason to believe that jesus didn't drink alcohol. I find it amazing that someone who can't hold up a decent argument is going to try and make cheap shots about people being experts at things. Are you seriously so dense that you don't realize that this is a christian issue and not a "straight edge rule"?
Read the words that are in front of you. I said even if I did think that drinking was wrong for everyone. I did not say that I did. This is what we call an example. Holy crap, you call me dense(do you need to resort to namecalling when it's getting harder to make a good point?)? And yeah, there is a reason for me to think that Jesus did not drink alcohol. Because drunkenness and specifically wine is said by God to be wrong, it leads me to believe that wine could possibly stand for something else when mentioned in the Gospels. It is considered debatable, which is why it is not dogma.
And you want to talk about me not holding up a good argument? It's a damn good argument if you open your ears and try to understand Christianity rather than ignoring what you choose to ignore (duality, dogma, etc).
And it does become a "straight edge rule" when we were arguing about straight edge meaning that alcohol was wrong for everyone. Is it possible that not everyone thinks that way and maybe the movement "evolved" again and you missed it.

Don't get angry Dusty. You seem like you're getting angry. It is just a debate.

[xbatmanx]

I know this is a hard concept to get your head around, but respecting the choices of others isn't the same as condoning them or agreeing with them.
So you respect immoral decisions? If someone does something evil why wouldn't you stand up to that? Do you have any non-sxe friends or do you only associate with edge kids? Respecting their decision would mean that you respect the reason they made that decision as well, which to them most likely wasn't an issue of morals.

[xsecx]

Ok I guess we're going to keep going in this circular argument then since you're not willing to listen when people tell you what is what with their own religion.


it's not a circular argument when contradictions are shown and you opt out. Did it ever occur to you that people brought up in the christian tradition could have just as much exposure to christianity as you have?



Read the words that are in front of you. I said even if I did think that drinking was wrong for everyone. I did not say that I did. This is what we call an example. Holy crap, you call me dense(do you need to resort to namecalling when it's getting harder to make a good point?)? And yeah, there is a reason for me to think that Jesus did not drink alcohol. Because drunkenness and specifically wine is said by God to be wrong, it leads me to believe that wine could possibly stand for something else when mentioned in the Gospels. It is considered debatable, which is why it is not dogma.


if you don't then it's a moot point and no reason to bring it up, now does it? Wine is specifically wrong, yet jesus provided wine for a wedding? Alcoholic wine at that. So where exactly does it say that wine is wrong? And how is the telling of a miracle debatable, unless you're saying that jesus didn't turn water to wine and that it was somehow symbolic it kind of bring his divinity into question.



And you want to talk about me not holding up a good argument? It's a damn good argument if you open your ears and try to understand Christianity rather than ignoring what you choose to ignore (duality, dogma, etc).
And it does become a "straight edge rule" when we were arguing about straight edge meaning that alcohol was wrong for everyone. Is it possible that not everyone thinks that way and maybe the movement "evolved" again and you missed it.


so it's a damn good argument that you yourself earlier admitted could easily been seen as a cop-out? Which is it? I've got an amazingly thorough understanding of christianity, I'm not the one here trying to change the religion to fit me, you are. ok, so if you want to bring straight edge into it, then you think drinking alcohol is right? Jesus dude. pick a stand.



Don't get angry Dusty. You seem like you're getting angry. It is just a debate.

how am I getting angry? you're the one playing the "I don't like how this is going so I'm taking my ball and going home" game.

[xsecx]

So you respect immoral decisions? If someone does something evil why wouldn't you stand up to that? Do you have any non-sxe friends or do you only associate with edge kids? Respecting their decision would mean that you respect the reason they made that decision as well, which to them most likely wasn't an issue of morals.

You can respect someones RIGHT to chose their lifestyle without respecting the reason or the immoral action. unless you're telling me now that you respect the reason why people drink, except that you don't want to associate yourself with them? Damn dude. which way is?

[xsecx]

you guys got good points, and I'm tired of arguing. Christianity is a more important aspect to me than sxe EVER will be. If you can't accept people who see the good in both, so be it. But know that just because I find a lot of value in religion doesnt mean I'm gonna turn into a drunk.

it's not a matter of finding good in both, it's the fact that some people are trying to change the religion to suit them and their needs rather than taking it for what it is. If you think drinking is wrong, wouldn't you find a religion that agrees with you? Rather than disregarding the bits and pieces that don't agree with you?

[xbatmanx]

it's not a circular argument when contradictions are shown and you opt out. Did it ever occur to you that people brought up in the christian tradition could have just as much exposure to christianity as you have?
It IS a circular argument when you either choose not to hear or just don't understand certain parts of Christian faith that would allow a Christian to be edge. And when you have yet to explain this collective decision that was made saying that in order to be straight edge you need to think that alcohol is wrong for everyone.
And as you've clearly demonstrated being brought up in the Christian tradition does not necessarily mean you know what you're talking about. As well as there are different sects of Christianity.




if you don't then it's a moot point and no reason to bring it up, now does it? Wine is specifically wrong, yet jesus provided wine for a wedding? Alcoholic wine at that. So where exactly does it say that wine is wrong? And how is the telling of a miracle debatable, unless you're saying that jesus didn't turn water to wine and that it was somehow symbolic it kind of bring his divinity into question.
The subject of the thread is "Can You Be Christian and Straight Edge?" not "Can James Be Christian and Straight Edge?" The "you" in this case is general. Meaning "Can One Be Christian and Straight Edge?" My beliefs don't matter in this argument. I could be a drunken atheist and still make this argument.
Hosea 4:11 "The Lord says, "Wine, both old and new, is robbing my people of their senses."
Proverbs 23:20 "Don't associate with people who drink too much wine or stuff themselves with food."
Ephesians 5:18 "Don't be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, let the Holy Spirit fill and control you."
There are many passages relating to the sin of drunkenness. But these are at least some of the ones that specifically mention wine.



so it's a damn good argument that you yourself earlier admitted could easily been seen as a cop-out? Which is it? I've got an amazingly thorough understanding of christianity, I'm not the one here trying to change the religion to fit me, you are. ok, so if you want to bring straight edge into it, then you think drinking alcohol is right? Jesus dude. pick a stand.
What I said was when I was agnostic and did not have faith, the duality belief sounded to me like a cop-out. Sometimes things happen in your life where you develop faith. Since Christianity is a faith-based religion you need to have faith in order to believe some things. This is the thing that you are not getting. You're trying to argue things in Christianity that there are different beliefs on. I'm not trying to change anything. I hold my beliefs and Christianity happens to fit me.



how am I getting angry? you're the one playing the "I don't like how this is going so I'm taking my ball and going home" game.
I just don't like wasting my time trying to ague something in circles. I've got better things to do. I've gotten so much less done since I started arguing this. I'm not used to sitting on messageboards all day. I'm fine with the direction that this went in. I don't think you've proven anything about Christianity being wrong and I was never trying to convince you to change your mind because it's clear from any of your posts that you are convinced that you are never wrong. And I'm sure I come across as that too. My goal here has been to rebut you enough to provide enough information for people to make their own judgement. And I said that before. Now I'm sure you'll go on to say "oh you can't even come up with an argument," "you're not really sxe," "you're not really Christian," or whatever you can think of to try to make me look bad. I will let my arguments speak for themselves. Just because they don't work for you doesn't mean they won't work for someone else. Seriously, say whatever you want, but I've wasted too much time on this.
So now I'm going to start enjoying the rest of the site if you don't mind.

[kelly]

So now I'm going to start enjoying the rest of the site if you don't mind.
Just wondering if there were air quotes around the word "enjoying" when you said that.

[xbatmanx]

Just wondering if there were air quotes around the word "enjoying" when you said that.
Yeah it looks like there may be some lighter subjects as well hehe.

[xsecx]

It IS a circular argument when you either choose not to hear or just don't understand certain parts of Christian faith that would allow a Christian to be edge. And when you have yet to explain this collective decision that was made saying that in order to be straight edge you need to think that alcohol is wrong for everyone.
And as you've clearly demonstrated being brought up in the Christian tradition does not necessarily mean you know what you're talking about. As well as there are different sects of Christianity.


I've failed to demonstrate that people think alcohol is wrong? What involvement with straight edge have you had up to this point where that even makes sense to you? Even in your own words you claimed to not want to be associated with people who drink, so who's playing word games? I fully understand the part of christian faith, and it still comes down to one central point that you haven't been able to address and won't be able to address. The duality of christ only means the jesus was both divine and human. that doesn't mean he was wrong or capable of being wrong. The bible is VERY clear on that. If you disagree, start point to stuff. Now, what part of the religion don't I understand? I'm not the one saying my god was wrong and I was right?




The subject of the thread is "Can You Be Christian and Straight Edge?" not "Can James Be Christian and Straight Edge?" The "you" in this case is general. Meaning "Can One Be Christian and Straight Edge?" My beliefs don't matter in this argument. I could be a drunken atheist and still make this argument.
Hosea 4:11 "The Lord says, "Wine, both old and new, is robbing my people of their senses."
Proverbs 23:20 "Don't associate with people who drink too much wine or stuff themselves with food."
Ephesians 5:18 "Don't be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, let the Holy Spirit fill and control you."
There are many passages relating to the sin of drunkenness. But these are at least some of the ones that specifically mention wine.


So how is it debatable and symbolic? or did you miss that part? So your beliefs don't matter in this argument, but yet keep making appearances as justifications and explainations as to why someone who isn't christian can't understand how you can be both? So you found 1 old testament verse that in context is talking about prostitution and drunkness not wine itself. and 2 more tht talk about drinking too much, not actually drinking and given that wine is the go to alcoholic beverage in the bible it would stand to reason that is why it's used as an example.





What I said was when I was agnostic and did not have faith, the duality belief sounded to me like a cop-out. Sometimes things happen in your life where you develop faith. Since Christianity is a faith-based religion you need to have faith in order to believe some things. This is the thing that you are not getting. You're trying to argue things in Christianity that there are different beliefs on. I'm not trying to change anything. I hold my beliefs and Christianity happens to fit me.


which includes putting yourself above god.




I just don't like wasting my time trying to ague something in circles. I've got better things to do. I've gotten so much less done since I started arguing this. I'm not used to sitting on messageboards all day. I'm fine with the direction that this went in. I don't think you've proven anything about Christianity being wrong and I was never trying to convince you to change your mind because it's clear from any of your posts that you are convinced that you are never wrong. And I'm sure I come across as that too. My goal here has been to rebut you enough to provide enough information for people to make their own judgement. And I said that before. Now I'm sure you'll go on to say "oh you can't even come up with an argument," "you're not really sxe," "you're not really Christian," or whatever you can think of to try to make me look bad. I will let my arguments speak for themselves. Just because they don't work for you doesn't mean they won't work for someone else. Seriously, say whatever you want, but I've wasted too much time on this.
So now I'm going to start enjoying the rest of the site if you don't mind.

It only goes in circles when you fail to actually address and answer the questions posed, forcing it into a circle and forcing you to give up because it's the easy way out.

[kelly]

It only goes in circles when you fail to actually address and answer the questions posed, forcing it into a circle and forcing you to give up because it's the easy way out.

I kinda thought it was going in circles because you two were both stating the same points over and over again. But that's just me.

[xsecx]

I kinda thought it was going in circles because you two were both stating the same points over and over again. But that's just me.

good to see you're still holding down the status quo by not actually contributing anything other than the occasional smart ass commen.

[kelly]

good to see you're still holding down the status quo by not actually contributing anything other than the occasional smart ass commen.
Yep. Girl's gotta have a purpose in life.

[nucleocide]

This has really turned into a flame war hasn't it. Personally, I see no reason for christianity and sXe to contradict one another. There really is different levels of christianity out there. You have your fanatics who force their beliefs on others. You have those who say they are christian yet sit back, don't participate anyway, and do a lot of un-christian things. You also have your christians who lead by example (us good guys :D).

Isn't this how sXe is? There are the psycho sXe ppl who run around all 'hardcore' punching themselves in the face and putting a bad label on the sXe crowd. You have the sXe ppl who prolly take a swig every now and then but like being a member of the 'club'. Then you have the sXe ppl who lead by example, staying away from the drugs, random sex, and booze (us good guys :D).

Personal beliefs on homosexuality: It's inneficient. The species can't propagate unless the penises are going into the vaginas.

Personal beliefs on sex: Don't put the penis in the vagina unless you eventually plan on having a kid with the other person.

Personal beliefs on sXe & christianity: 1. Some of you folks need to calm the fuck down. 2. We're all entitled to our own opinions, although 3. wouldn't it be nice if more ppl shared our opinions?

[kelly]

Personal beliefs on homosexuality: It's inneficient. The species can't propagate unless the penises are going into the vaginas.

Personal beliefs on sex: Don't put the penis in the vagina unless you eventually plan on having a kid with the other person.

Personal beliefs on sXe & christianity: 1. Some of you folks need to calm the fuck down. 2. We're all entitled to our own opinions, although 3. wouldn't it be nice if more ppl shared our opinions?

Ok, the last sXe and christianity one I agree with. However, the homosexuality thing? What the hell? Since when is propagating the species a major concern? Don't we have an overpopulation problem?

[xsecx]

Ok, the last sXe and christianity one I agree with. However, the homosexuality thing? What the hell? Since when is propagating the species a major concern? Don't we have an overpopulation problem?

the bible's pretty clear on homosexuality.

[kelly]

the bible's pretty clear on homosexuality.

The Bible? Why would I care what the bible says?

[xsecx]

The Bible? Why would I care what the bible says?

because you're talking about homosexuality with "christians"?

[kelly]

because you're talking about homosexuality with "christians"?

Oh yeah. Forgot they were Jesus freaks. Damn Jesus kind of gets in the way of reason.

[collin]

Oh yeah. Forgot they were Jesus freaks. Damn Jesus kind of gets in the way of reason.
easy on the Jesus comments please.....

[xsecx]

easy on the Jesus comments please.....

why?

[collin]

why?
because they're offensive to me.

[xsecx]

because they're offensive to me.

oh well.

[SgtD]

Personally, I see no reason for christianity and sXe to contradict one another.
personally, i feel sorry for you if you can't, it's not brain surgery...



Personal beliefs on homosexuality: It's inneficient. The species can't propagate unless the penises are going into the vaginas.

hahaha! you're a moron


Personal beliefs on sex: Don't put the penis in the vagina unless you eventually plan on having a kid with the other person.

hahaha!

[kelly]

because they're offensive to me.
Religion is a personal choice.. what I say about your religion shouldn't have any impact on you. And why is me saying things about my lack of religion any more offensive than you saying things about your religion? I believe that your religion gets in the way of reasonable assessment of situations, like how to treat homosexuals properly. It's not any more offensive for me to say that than it is for a christian to say something about their beliefs.

[xbatmanx]

because they're offensive to me.
If I believe my friend is a good guy but someone says he's not, I can argue about it, but their stance is not going to offend me. I don't see why you'd be offended. Let people say what they want, is it going to change the way you feel?

[neverbackdown]

This argument has grown pointless. It went from a simple question about sxe and christianity to gay bashing. Its simple, no where in the Bible does it encourage drinking and likewise its unclear about homoseuality (even though that has nothing to do with the original topic).
Sayin "edge kids say drinkings bad therefore anything that even mentions drinking is bad" is ridiculous. If thats the way you look at things, you should move to a 3rd world Jihadist country where the state religion is Islam and they condmen alcohol based on Muslim scripture. By your logic, if anything that even condones drinking is bad, then therefore the entire civilized world is bad and you shouldn't be enjoying any of it. You should stop watching tv (beer commercials), stop reading the newspaper, stop going to drugstores (they sell rubbing alcohol for wounds), and stop driving your car because your mechanic might have had a beer at one point in his life.

If your sxe and reject christianity thats fine, thats your choice. But don't question others dedication if they can understand how the two can coexist.

Like wise, homphobes have every right to run their mouths as everyone else. as much as most people disagree with them, they still have the right to their opinion. but, again, that has nothing to do with the topic.

[xsecx]

This argument has grown pointless. It went from a simple question about sxe and christianity to gay bashing. Its simple, no where in the Bible does it encourage drinking and likewise its unclear about homoseuality (even though that has nothing to do with the original topic).
Sayin "edge kids say drinkings bad therefore anything that even mentions drinking is bad" is ridiculous. If thats the way you look at things, you should move to a 3rd world Jihadist country where the state religion is Islam and they condmen alcohol based on Muslim scripture. By your logic, if anything that even condones drinking is bad, then therefore the entire civilized world is bad and you shouldn't be enjoying any of it. You should stop watching tv (beer commercials), stop reading the newspaper, stop going to drugstores (they sell rubbing alcohol for wounds), and stop driving your car because your mechanic might have had a beer at one point in his life.

If your sxe and reject christianity thats fine, thats your choice. But don't question others dedication if they can understand how the two can coexist.

Like wise, homphobes have every right to run their mouths as everyone else. as much as most people disagree with them, they still have the right to their opinion. but, again, that has nothing to do with the topic.

it might help if you actually understood the argument before talking about it. where did anyone say "edge kids say drinkings bad therefore anything that even mentions drinking is bad"? The issue is actually that edge kids say drinking is bad therefore jesus was wrong for drinking. No if you want to explain how either jesus wasn't wrong, or how edge kids don't think drinking is "bad" then the argument stands. Jesus encouraged drinking by providing wine to a wedding, so your statement is false.

as for homosexuality, the bible isn't vague about it all, and I'm not quite sure what your basis for saying that it's at all unclear about it?

[straightXed]

because they're offensive to me.

Your whole dumb ass religion with your twatty twat of a saviour (who incidently saved no one and never existed) offends me.

[kelly]

Your whole dumb ass religion with your twatty twat of a saviour (who incidently saved no one and never existed) offends me.

Yeah, what he said.

[straightXed]

Yeah, what he said.

Did you like the twatty twat of saviour bit, i thought that was particularly good?!

[SgtD]

Did you like the twatty twat of saviour bit, i thought that was particularly good?!
it made me laugh out loud! or should i say, i LOLed

[kelly]

Did you like the twatty twat of saviour bit, i thought that was particularly good?!

Yeah, you know, I was gonna say something along those lines, but I couldn't think of just the right insult. Twatty twat just about covers it though.

[mouseman004]

Your whole dumb ass religion with your twatty twat of a saviour (who incidently saved no one and never existed) offends me.


Really funny, made me laugh, but its a little harsh isnt it?

[collin]

Your whole dumb ass religion with your twatty twat of a saviour (who incidently saved no one and never existed) offends me.
ok. this is getting stupid. you guys have gone from defending your points of view to making vulgar comments dissing the other side of the argument. jesus christ is my savior, that's my belief, he was perfect and was fully god and fully man, and he is the son of a perfect god. sorry, but all your christian bashing isn't going to do any good. once again, i'm grounded in my faith, and i'm not going to change my beliefs. and i AM christian and straight-edge, so deal with it.

[xsecx]

ok. this is getting stupid. you guys have gone from defending your points of view to making vulgar comments dissing the other side of the argument. jesus christ is my savior, that's my belief, he was perfect and was fully god and fully man, and he is the son of a perfect god. sorry, but all your christian bashing isn't going to do any good. once again, i'm grounded in my faith, and i'm not going to change my beliefs. and i AM christian and straight-edge, so deal with it.

actually. the 2 conversations have nothing to do with each other. some people just really don't like christianity or christians.

he was perfect, but yet he was also wrong .

[collin]

actually. the 2 conversations have nothing to do with each other. some people just really don't like christianity or christians.

he was perfect, but yet he was also wrong .
as has been discussed when talking about the evolution of straightedge, times change. why would you not like me because of who i believe in?

[kelly]

ok. this is getting stupid. you guys have gone from defending your points of view to making vulgar comments dissing the other side of the argument. jesus christ is my savior, that's my belief, he was perfect and was fully god and fully man, and he is the son of a perfect god. sorry, but all your christian bashing isn't going to do any good. once again, i'm grounded in my faith, and i'm not going to change my beliefs. and i AM christian and straight-edge, so deal with it.

See, now xbatmanx's argument has some logic to it. Yours on the other hand is seriously lacking. You just took all of Dusty's reasons why you can't be christian and sXe and listed them to prove that you're christian and sXe.

[collin]

See, now xbatmanx's argument has some logic to it. Yours on the other hand is seriously lacking. You just took all of Dusty's reasons why you can't be christian and sXe and listed them to prove that you're christian and sXe.
so you're telling me that i'm not christian and sXe?

[xsecx]

as has been discussed when talking about the evolution of straightedge, times change. why would you not like me because of who i believe in?

why are you asking me? also the evolution of straight edge doesn't have anything to do with you thinking jesus was wrong.

[collin]

why are you asking me? also the evolution of straight edge doesn't have anything to do with you thinking jesus was wrong.
sorry, the "you" was meant as a reference to everyone.

[rodrigo]

so you're telling me that i'm not christian and sXe?
see ? it wasnt that hard

[collin]

why are you asking me? also the evolution of straight edge doesn't have anything to do with you thinking jesus was wrong.
ahh but it does. what i do or don't think is wrong today might be different if i lived in a place where there was no alternative.

[collin]

see ? it wasnt that hard
but who are you to tell me who i can or can't be?

[xsecx]

ahh but it does. what i do or don't think is wrong today might be different if i lived in a place where there was no alternative.

so jesus is only right in context? and the no alternative thing is a total myth. If you actually read your bible you'd know that it's a bs argument and jesus talks about and compares himself to john the baptist, who didn't drink alcohol.

[rodrigo]

but who are you to tell me who i can or can't be?
im rodrigo

[collin]

so jesus is only right in context? and the no alternative thing is a total myth. If you actually read your bible you'd know that it's a bs argument and jesus talks about and compares himself to john the baptist, who didn't drink alcohol.
show me where it's a bs argument.

[collin]

im rodrigo
so what authority are you over me?

[kelly]

so you're telling me that i'm not christian and sXe?
Have you been reading the thread at all? You can't think jesus is perfect and think drinking booze is wrong. It doesn't jive. The only argument I've seen so far in this thread that makes any kind of sense against dusty's arguments is xbatmanx's argument about the duality of Jesus. But instead you said that Jesus was perfect. Someone who is perfect can't do something that you believe is wrong... either they're not perfect, or your belief that it is wrong is flawed.

[rodrigo]

so what authority are you over me?
i invented straight edge

[collin]

i invented straight edge
right...... and i invented the internet.

[rodrigo]

right...... and i invented the internet.
liar, god invented the internet

[kelly]

liar, god invented the internet
But there is no god.. so how did I get here?

[xsecx]

show me where it's a bs argument.

because john the baptist didn't drink alcohol and jesus did? or on top of that, jesus was god, are you going to tell me he couldn't purify water to drink if he had an issue with wine?

[rodrigo]

But there is no god.. so how did I get here?
because of the Dusty

[xsecx]

Have you been reading the thread at all? You can't think jesus is perfect and think drinking booze is wrong. It doesn't jive. The only argument I've seen so far in this thread that makes any kind of sense against dusty's arguments is xbatmanx's argument about the duality of Jesus. But instead you said that Jesus was perfect. Someone who is perfect can't do something that you believe is wrong... either they're not perfect, or your belief that it is wrong is flawed.

his arguement doesn't hold because duality just means that jesus was able to understand the human condition and sympathize with human suffering, not that he was any less perfect. he was able to die for the sins of man because he was perfect and without sin. not because he was human and therefore flawed as all humans are. To take his form of duality jesus would have be more human that divine and capable of being wrong which his divinity would prevent. unless we want to try and talk about christian scientists who believe that jesus and christ were 2 different things.

[kelly]

his arguement doesn't hold because duality just means that jesus was able to understand the human condition and sympathize with human suffering, not that he was any less perfect. he was able to die for the sins of man because he was perfect and without sin. not because he was human and therefore flawed as all humans are. To take his form of duality jesus would have be more human that divine and capable of being wrong which his divinity would prevent. unless we want to try and talk about christian scientists who believe that jesus and christ were 2 different things.

Yeah, well, I know nothing of this jesus fella, so I'm not arguing in xbatmanx's favor, I just thought that was the only opposing argument to yours that has sounded well thought out.... I mean, personally the concept of any kind of perfection is pretty questionable as a basis for a system of beliefs.

[straightXed]

so what authority are you over me?

Dude, thats god you are talking to!

[straightXed]

ok. this is getting stupid. you guys have gone from defending your points of view to making vulgar comments dissing the other side of the argument. jesus christ is my savior, that's my belief, he was perfect and was fully god and fully man, and he is the son of a perfect god. sorry, but all your christian bashing isn't going to do any good. once again, i'm grounded in my faith, and i'm not going to change my beliefs. and i AM christian and straight-edge, so deal with it.

Its my belief that he's a twatty twat and a myth and you cannot prove that he exists so i don't really care about changing your beliefs. You can't put forward your beliefs on the subject and then get all whiny when people tell you their beliefs. The truth is christians recieve a shit load of sugar coated responses from people because of how protective they are over their religion. I seriously do find the idea of christianity an insulting manipulative cult, twisted archaic paradigm that shows and exploits the erroneous foolish folly of a weaker persons nature; or a completely mismatched bunch of contradictions when people make it up as they go along what christianity means, they make it so open to their own interpretation that they just ignore what their religion meant and change it to suit social climates - either way its my belief that its a bag of shit. This isn't bashing this is how others see things outside of your closed christian world but aside from all that people have put forth a very conclusive argument without putting forward their beliefs on your faith. They have illustrated the flaws that most people seem to be able to accept but it just further goes to proove that christians have a real hard time with their religion. You really don't see how riddled with contradiction christians are with their religion, i am happy to leave you to your beliefs and just keep discussing the reasons why straight edge and christianity don't mix - but when you get all self righteous about your belief you can bet i will put forward my belief with as much righteousness and vigor because to me you and your religion is utter shite.

You can call yourself what you like but you will not escape the contradiction that is inherent to your christian mindset and whilst i can deal with you calling yourself something that doesn't accurately work together its apparent that you are unable to deal with the fact that it does contradict one another.

[kelly]

The truth is christians recieve a shit load of sugar coated responses from people because of how protective they are over their religion.
I totally agree with this. I don't understand why we aren't allowed to say anything insulting about the christian religion, but they are allowed to tell us we are going to be tortured for eternity in hell for our beliefs? That's pretty insulting, if you ask me. And also a blantant mass manipulation ploy used by christianity to play people's natural fear of death and what will happen afterwards. So lets keep on calling jesus a twatty twat.

[stepinsideissue]

Dude, thats god you are talking to!


I'm confused now. Which one of them is god.

[straightXed]

I'm confused now. Which one of them is god.

Which one of who?

[collin]

Its my belief that he's a twatty twat and a myth and you cannot prove that he exists so i don't really care about changing your beliefs. You can't put forward your beliefs on the subject and then get all whiny when people tell you their beliefs. The truth is christians recieve a shit load of sugar coated responses from people because of how protective they are over their religion. I seriously do find the idea of christianity an insulting manipulative cult, twisted archaic paradigm that shows and exploits the erroneous foolish folly of a weaker persons nature; or a completely mismatched bunch of contradictions when people make it up as they go along what christianity means, they make it so open to their own interpretation that they just ignore what their religion meant and change it to suit social climates - either way its my belief that its a bag of shit. This isn't bashing this is how others see things outside of your closed christian world but aside from all that people have put forth a very conclusive argument without putting forward their beliefs on your faith. They have illustrated the flaws that most people seem to be able to accept but it just further goes to proove that christians have a real hard time with their religion. You really don't see how riddled with contradiction christians are with their religion, i am happy to leave you to your beliefs and just keep discussing the reasons why straight edge and christianity don't mix - but when you get all self righteous about your belief you can bet i will put forward my belief with as much righteousness and vigor because to me you and your religion is utter shite.

You can call yourself what you like but you will not escape the contradiction that is inherent to your christian mindset and whilst i can deal with you calling yourself something that doesn't accurately work together its apparent that you are unable to deal with the fact that it does contradict one another.
i'm not whining because you guys are stating your opinions, but there are ways to say it without insulting the other person and his beliefs.

[kelly]

i'm not whining because you guys are stating your opinions, but there are ways to say it without insulting the other person and his beliefs.

He wasn't insulting you, he was insulting Jesus. Follow along.

PS - if you're gonna be all high and mighty, you've better not have ever told a non-christian person they were gonna go to hell for not believing what you believe.

[collin]

PS - if you're gonna be all high and mighty, you've better not have ever told a non-christian person they were gonna go to hell for not believing what you believe.
i don't. i think it's lame for people to say stuff like that, because it really makes the whole image of christians look bad.....

[xsecx]

i don't. i think it's lame for people to say stuff like that, because it really makes the whole image of christians look bad.....

why would it make you look bad when it's the truth?

[collin]

why would it make you look bad when it's the truth?
because telling people that they're going to hell makes a christian seem to be kind of egotistical and it's usually not a good way to spread the love of christ....

[xsecx]

because telling people that they're going to hell makes a christian seem to be kind of egotistical and it's usually not a good way to spread the love of christ....

but that doesn't make it any less true to a christian. the reality being if you don't believe what we believe you're going to suffer eternally.

[straightXed]

i'm not whining because you guys are stating your opinions,

Then you have no problem with me saying jesus is a twatty twat and never existed.



but there are ways to say it without insulting the other person and his beliefs.

Well like i said, your beliefs of christ offend me, i deal with it. You call what i believe vulgar and go on to say christ is perfect i think its all shit myself and i think the idea of it is vulgar. So how are you going to address how your beliefs make me feel? I'm guessing you won't do anything seeing as you have stated you won't change your beliefs (which kinda leaves the idea of discussing anything with you rather futile as you aren't open to other ideas and have set yourself a closed off path from the begining) so why on earth should i change my beliefs and my right to express those beliefs just because you are a "christian" - bollocks to that, learn to deal with opposing beliefs rather than thinking yours are the only beliefs that matter.

[straightXed]

because telling people that they're going to hell makes a christian seem to be kind of egotistical and it's usually not a good way to spread the love of christ....

I find the love of christ offensive and wrong, especially when people try to say he died for me, thats bollocks, he didn't die for me, its a lie and its offensive, he didn't even exist. Keep the love of christ to yourself please.

[collin]

but that doesn't make it any less true to a christian. the reality being if you don't believe what we believe you're going to suffer eternally.
i know it doesn't make it any less true, but sometimes silence is wise....

[collin]

I find the love of christ offensive and wrong, especially when people try to say he died for me, thats bollocks, he didn't die for me, its a lie and its offensive, he didn't even exist. Keep the love of christ to yourself please.
actually, history says he did exist...there are many records of him... if you don't want me to preach to you fine, i'll respect that.

[straightXed]

actually, history says he did exist...there are many records of him... if you don't want me to preach to you fine, i'll respect that.

There never existed a man that could do the things twatty twat did, the man described in the bible never existed. So you aren't going to preach to me, aren't you supposed to be spreading the good news!!? I mean shouldn't you do all you can to save me from going to some ficticious idea of hell?

[collin]

There never existed a man that could do the things twatty twat did, the man described in the bible never existed. So you aren't going to preach to me, aren't you supposed to be spreading the good news!!? I mean shouldn't you do all you can to save me from going to some ficticious idea of hell?
Jesus did exist. If you don't believe he did what I believe he did, that's your opinion and I respect that. Yes I am called to spread the good news, but you've asked me not to, so I'm going to honor your request.

[kelly]

actually, history says he did exist...there are many records of him... if you don't want me to preach to you fine, i'll respect that.

They have limited evidence that some guy existed, who might possibly have been Jesus, and even if he was, they have no evidence that he was anything other than a regular guy who happened to start up a cult.

[collin]

They have limited evidence that some guy existed, who might possibly have been Jesus, and even if he was, they have no evidence that he was anything other than a regular guy who happened to start up a cult.
Once again, that's another issue of faith.

[kelly]

Once again, that's another issue of faith.

The concept of "faith" is a blatant tool used for mass manipulation. If you question anything they just tell you you have to have faith, or you will burn in eternal hellfire. And since people don't really want to burn in eternal hellfire, they follow along.

[collin]

The concept of "faith" is a blatant tool used for mass manipulation. If you question anything they just tell you you have to have faith, or you will burn in eternal hellfire. And since people don't really want to burn in eternal hellfire, they follow along.
that's true for some people....

[straightXed]

Jesus did exist. If you don't believe he did what I believe he did, that's your opinion and I respect that. Yes I am called to spread the good news, but you've asked me not to, so I'm going to honor your request.

Jesus did not exist as the ficticious man depicted in your good book, i can go back and forth with this all day because its my belief. I am now going to ask you not to tell me he exists, lets see if you can honor that request. You aren't spreading much good news here either at the request of a non believer, the news must not be that important.

[straightXed]

that's true for some people....

Its true for your whole religion.

[collin]

Jesus did not exist as the ficticious man depicted in your good book, i can go back and forth with this all day because its my belief. I am now going to ask you not to tell me he exists, lets see if you can honor that request. You aren't spreading much good news here either at the request of a non believer, the news must not be that important.
ok, so we won't argue about his existence. you asked me not to preach to you, and i've been complying with your request.

[kelly]

that's true for some people....

A tool for manipulation can't be true for some people. It's either a tool for manipulation, or it's not.

[straightXed]

Once again, that's another issue of faith.

Faith isn't proof so he didn't exist.

[collin]

Its true for your whole religion.
not really. there are christians who still think that they might go to hell.... faith is just letting yourself go and trusting that there's a master plan...

[kelly]

not really. there are christians who still think that they might go to hell.... faith is just letting yourself go and trusting that there's a master plan...
That's what they tell you to manipulate you into keeping in line.

[straightXed]

ok, so we won't argue about his existence. you asked me not to preach to you, and i've been complying with your request.


Well there is no argument about his existance, he didn't exist. Your religion is full of lies and hypocracy. Keep complying with my request.

[straightXed]

not really. there are christians who still think that they might go to hell.... faith is just letting yourself go and trusting that there's a master plan...

Way to miss the point. your whole religion is based on manipulation. Master plan - sounds like preaching to me.

[collin]

A tool for manipulation can't be true for some people. It's either a tool for manipulation, or it's not.
sure it can. some people are going to not accept it. there aren't just 2 sides to this argument...

[collin]

Way to miss the point. your whole religion is based on manipulation. Master plan - sounds like preaching to me.
not manipulation- trust in something we can't see and can't physically exist. and i'm still complying.

[straightXed]

sure it can. some people are going to not accept it. there aren't just 2 sides to this argument...

Well actually there is. Christianity is manipulative or not, whats the third side?

[collin]

Well actually there is. Christianity is manipulative or not, whats the third side?
some parts/denominations are, some aren't. i'm not a huge fan of the whole denomination idea myself.

[straightXed]

not manipulation- trust in something we can't see and can't physically exist. and i'm still complying.

Its manipulation as you are coerced to believe it with fabricated stories. Without coercion why would you believe it something that can't physically exist?

[straightXed]

some parts/denominations are, some aren't. i'm not a huge fan of the whole denomination idea myself.

You misunderstand how christianity is manipulative then, maybe you are blinded by faith. Do you believe that if you do wrong god will punish you?