Can You Be Christian And Straight Edge?

[xmountbrockenx]

people aren't comparing them at all, the argument is that the beliefs of one contradict the beliefs of the other. I also don't understand why you think that straight edge doesn't suggest that drinking is wrong, nor do I understand how something could be a "sin" and not wrong.

Good point. However a comparison must be weighed on some level in order to compare their beliefs; which subsequently would reflect the consistency of holding to Christian beliefs and sxe ones.

Again, I think it all depends on how sxe is viewed. I mean I feel I am familiar with the basic tenets of the sxe lifestyle, but what it means to abstain from drinking is a personal choice. And furthermore, if Jesus drank he was not sxe. However, this does not mean that by holding to a sxe lifestyle one is necessarily committed to viewing Christ as 'bad' or 'evil.' Ultimately, I find that sxe is a phenomenon that is restricted to personal decisions and the punk/hardcore scene. In short, I feel that for the person who is sxe, drinking is not 'wrong' but 'wrong for themselves.' Do you see the difference? I suppose if I were Jesus I would not have claimed since I would be in a situation where drinking reflected a mere necessity of 1st century Jewish culture as well as a less pejorative social stigma.

Furthermore, I think a punk rocker drinking is far worse than say an average joe businessman or construction worker. This is because they're way of life is far different from ours. They essentially live in another world and I suppose if I were not in the scene and the type of person I am I would not have claimed. But I am until death and that is that. And this means that one can be a Christian and sxe (assuming we agree with sxe being restricted to the 20-21 century as well as to the type of scene and lifestyle punkers and ballers enjoy) since drinking is not 'wrong' for everyone, only for those who make the choice to be so. At least that is my take. YOu may think it is wrong for everyone. Well I do not.

[xsecx]

Good point. However a comparison must be weighed on some level in order to compare their beliefs; which subsequently would reflect the consistency of holding to Christian beliefs and sxe ones.

Again, I think it all depends on how sxe is viewed. I mean I feel I am familiar with the basic tenets of the sxe lifestyle, but what it means to abstain from drinking is a personal choice. And furthermore, if Jesus drank he was not sxe. However, this does not mean that by holding to a sxe lifestyle one is necessarily committed to viewing Christ as 'bad' or 'evil.' Ultimately, I find that sxe is a phenomenon that is restricted to personal decisions and the punk/hardcore scene. In short, I feel that for the person who is sxe, drinking is not 'wrong' but 'wrong for themselves.' Do you see the difference? I suppose if I were Jesus I would not have claimed since I would be in a situation where drinking reflected a mere necessity of 1st century Jewish culture as well as a less pejorative social stigma.

Furthermore, I think a punk rocker drinking is far worse than say an average joe businessman or construction worker. This is because they're way of life is far different from ours. They essentially live in another world and I suppose if I were not in the scene and the type of person I am I would not have claimed. But I am until death and that is that. And this means that one can be a Christian and sxe (assuming we agree with sxe being restricted to the 20-21 century as well as to the type of scene and lifestyle punkers and ballers enjoy) since drinking is not 'wrong' for everyone, only for those who make the choice to be so. At least that is my take. YOu may think it is wrong for everyone. Well I do not.

So you think drinking is something that is a positive and should be encourage? How does that reconcile with the words, actions and slogans that surround straight edge? I've never met anyone who claimed to be straight edge who didn't believe strongly that the world would be a better place without drugs and alcohol. There is a difference between accepting the decisions of others and condoning/endorsing them. Straight edge is an extreme lifestyle. It's one of abstinence and not one of moderation. What you're talking about describes someone who does not feel strongly about the consumption of alcohol and drugs, so I don't see why someone like that would take one a label like Straight Edge, one associated with a strict lifestyle of abstinence.

[xmountbrockenx]

So you think drinking is something that is a positive and should be encourage? How does that reconcile with the words, actions and slogans that surround straight edge? I've never met anyone who claimed to be straight edge who didn't believe strongly that the world would be a better place without drugs and alcohol. There is a difference between accepting the decisions of others and condoning/endorsing them. Straight edge is an extreme lifestyle. It's one of abstinence and not one of moderation. What you're talking about describes someone who does not feel strongly about the consumption of alcohol and drugs, so I don't see why someone like that would take one a label like Straight Edge, one associated with a strict lifestyle of abstinence.

I didn't say that drinking is a positive thing across the board. Obviously not in my situation. However, in some people's situations in life, I see nothing wrong with it. Its just not for me. Hey, I didn't think that being sxe meant you had to be evangelical about it, or to say that drinking is 'wrong' for everyone. My wife drinks moderately on occasion. You think i am going to think her less of a person for it. Clearly not. She is a better person in many ways than I am. Being sxe does not make me a better person than others, only that for me if I were to drink I would be less of a person. If you don't want to think of me as edge because I 'believe; differently than you, thats fine. Sxe is about action, or personal committments I thought. Not about a belief system. That sounds like a religion to me.

[xmountbrockenx]

So you think drinking is something that is a positive and should be encourage? How does that reconcile with the words, actions and slogans that surround straight edge? I've never met anyone who claimed to be straight edge who didn't believe strongly that the world would be a better place without drugs and alcohol. There is a difference between accepting the decisions of others and condoning/endorsing them. Straight edge is an extreme lifestyle. It's one of abstinence and not one of moderation. What you're talking about describes someone who does not feel strongly about the consumption of alcohol and drugs, so I don't see why someone like that would take one a label like Straight Edge, one associated with a strict lifestyle of abstinence.


Another comment I would like to make. Sxe is an extreme lifestyle. And that is the word for it; lifestyle. However, I feel I am free to 'believe' as I wish about alcohol. And personally I have no problem with it for some who choose to use it responsibly. I'm sorry, the reason I went edge was because, a.) I hated the lifestyle of those I hung around with that drank, did drugs and whored around. And b.) I didn't want to live that life. However, those who drank that I knew were like me; extreme. I am an extreme personality, and people like me should not drink. But I think it is alright for others who live more passive lives. So sxe gives me the edge in the scene and sort of life and person I am. And I think that this is enough to be edge. Not necessarily to look down on all those who do drink. I respect many who do. Some of my favorite authors drank, C. S. Lewis, G. K. Chesterton, the list goes on. And of course Jesus (not an author obviosuly-but in my opinion God in the flesh). These are much better men than me. But if I have any chance at being the best I can be, I feel I have to abstain from alcohol, unlike them. After all, I doubt they liked bowling themselves into crowds of people, screaming at the top of their lungs to the tune of social ills, or punching holes in walls. Thats just me.

[xsecx]

I didn't say that drinking is a positive thing across the board. Obviously not in my situation. However, in some people's situations in life, I see nothing wrong with it. Its just not for me. Hey, I didn't think that being sxe meant you had to be evangelical about it, or to say that drinking is 'wrong' for everyone. My wife drinks moderately on occasion. You think i am going to think her less of a person for it. Clearly not. She is a better person in many ways than I am. Being sxe does not make me a better person than others, only that for me if I were to drink I would be less of a person. If you don't want to think of me as edge because I 'believe; differently than you, thats fine. Sxe is about action, or personal committments I thought. Not about a belief system. That sounds like a religion to me.

So do you believe that the drinking of alcohol is something positive and should be condoned and encouraged? Do you believe that the world would be a better place without alcohol? What action do you think straight edge is about? What would be the point of a personal commitment, that you just keep to yourself? I mean, why did all those bands over all these years say the things they did? If it's just about yourself, why align yourself with a label that clearly is about something more than one persons personal belief? i just don't see the point of calling yourself straight edge, if all it is is about you and not about trying to make a difference.

[xsecx]

Another comment I would like to make. Sxe is an extreme lifestyle. And that is the word for it; lifestyle. However, I feel I am free to 'believe' as I wish about alcohol. And personally I have no problem with it for some who choose to use it responsibly. I'm sorry, the reason I went edge was because, a.) I hated the lifestyle of those I hung around with that drank, did drugs and whored around. And b.) I didn't want to live that life. However, those who drank that I knew were like me; extreme. I am an extreme personality, and people like me should not drink. But I think it is alright for others who live more passive lives. So sxe gives me the edge in the scene and sort of life and person I am. And I think that this is enough to be edge. Not necessarily to look down on all those who do drink. I respect many who do. Some of my favorite authors drank, C. S. Lewis, G. K. Chesterton, the list goes on. And of course Jesus (not an author obviosuly-but in my opinion God in the flesh). These are much better men than me. But if I have any chance at being the best I can be, I feel I have to abstain from alcohol, unlike them. After all, I doubt they liked bowling themselves into crowds of people, screaming at the top of their lungs to the tune of social ills, or punching holes in walls. Thats just me.

so do you or do you not, believe the world would be a better place without alcohol?

[xmountbrockenx]

So do you believe that the drinking of alcohol is something positive and should be condoned and encouraged? Do you believe that the world would be a better place without alcohol? What action do you think straight edge is about? What would be the point of a personal commitment, that you just keep to yourself? I mean, why did all those bands over all these years say the things they did? If it's just about yourself, why align yourself with a label that clearly is about something more than one persons personal belief? i just don't see the point of calling yourself straight edge, if all it is is about you and not about trying to make a difference.

I don't think it will be any better or any worse. What I do think, which is the point I am trying to stress, is that for some people it is wrong and for others permissable. I don't think it is the responsibility of a sxe person to abolish all alcohol like some 1920's abolitionist.

OK, think of it this way. Some people are allergic to certain substance, such as penicillin. With this in mind, it would be ludicrious to think that it being administered to one that is allergic to it would get any better. However, to someone that is not, it would be beneficial. Now in the case of alcohol, I am not suggesting that it is some medicinal health agent. However, I am suggesting that to some it is poison and to others it is not.

In short, if I were to accept the ridiculous claim that alcohol is bad for all people all the time and that if ALL (not some or most) people drink then they are bad or doing a bad thing, I would exclude a good many people I respect and look up to. Now, it is true that say an overweight person should lose weight for their own health and I could at the same time respect them as a person but not condone what they are doing to their body. But I don't think that even this sort of case would apply. For drinking in moderation for some is no less bad for one's health than say a glass of Mt Dew once a week. And yet I am aware of the fact that it is more about sobriety than healthiness. To this, I say that being 'tipsy' for some is acceptable, and for others, like me, it is not.

Now, my tolerance of others drinking is in no way a diminshment on my sxe principles, I feel. You seem to disagree. You seem to think that sxe principles, as expressed by the majority of sxe advocates, is one that applies to everyone and that the whole of our society, nay the world, should abstain. That may be true. However, if this is the case (which I am in no position to say since all I know of sxe are the guidelines that are generally given as a personal committment not a global effort) then perhaps I am not sxe according to your standards. I find a different set of standards for being sxe, as I have understood them, which is simply one's own abstinence alone; not some unconditional intolerance of its use by all members of socoety in all times, in all places, in all conditions, etc...Thats just not how I understand sxe...perhaps the majority of sxe adherents see it that way. I go by a simple minimalism so to speak.

[xsecx]

I don't think it will be any better or any worse. What I do think, which is the point I am trying to stress, is that for some people it is wrong and for others permissable. I don't think it is the responsibility of a sxe person to abolish all alcohol like some 1920's abolitionist.

OK, think of it this way. Some people are allergic to certain substance, such as penicillin. With this in mind, it would be ludicrious to think that it being administered to one that is allergic to it would get any better. However, to someone that is not, it would be beneficial. Now in the case of alcohol, I am not suggesting that it is some medicinal health agent. However, I am suggesting that to some it is poison and to others it is not.

In short, if I were to accept the ridiculous claim that alcohol is bad for all people all the time and that if ALL (not some or most) people drink then they are bad or doing a bad thing, I would exclude a good many people I respect and look up to. Now, it is true that say an overweight person should lose weight for their own health and I could at the same time respect them as a person but not condone what they are doing to their body. But I don't think that even this sort of case would apply. For drinking in moderation for some is no less bad for one's health than say a glass of Mt Dew once a week. And yet I am aware of the fact that it is more about sobriety than healthiness. To this, I say that being 'tipsy' for some is acceptable, and for others, like me, it is not.

Now, my tolerance of others drinking is in no way a diminshment on my sxe principles, I feel. You seem to disagree. You seem to think that sxe principles, as expressed by the majority of sxe advocates, is one that applies to everyone and that the whole of our society, nay the world, should abstain. That may be true. However, if this is the case (which I am in no position to say since all I know of sxe are the guidelines that are generally given as a personal committment not a global effort) then perhaps I am not sxe according to your standards. I find a different set of standards for being sxe, as I have understood them, which is simply one's own abstinence alone; not some unconditional intolerance of its use by all members of socoety in all times, in all places, in all conditions, etc...Thats just not how I understand sxe...perhaps the majority of sxe adherents see it that way. I go by a simple minimalism so to speak.

you're focusing on the first question and completely ignoring the rest. Do you believe that alcohol is something positive and should be encouraged? I didn't ask whether or not you tolerated or even if you accepted the behavior of others. What's the point of giving something a name, like straight edge, if it's just a personal commitment? Why associate with others if that's the case? I also never said anything about unconditional intolerance. There is a distinct difference between accepting the fact that people will use substances and condoning it. I honestly believe that the world would be better place without drugs and alcohol and I have a really hard time understanding how someone could identify with straight edge, with all of the slogans, lyrics, etc , and believe the drinking and drug use is ok.

[xmountbrockenx]

you're focusing on the first question and completely ignoring the rest. Do you believe that alcohol is something positive and should be encouraged? I didn't ask whether or not you tolerated or even if you accepted the behavior of others. What's the point of giving something a name, like straight edge, if it's just a personal commitment? Why associate with others if that's the case? I also never said anything about unconditional intolerance. There is a distinct difference between accepting the fact that people will use substances and condoning it. I honestly believe that the world would be better place without drugs and alcohol and I have a really hard time understanding how someone could identify with straight edge, with all of the slogans, lyrics, etc , and believe the drinking and drug use is ok.


First, i didn't say drug use was OK. It is illegal after all. And as far as your question which you felt I have been avoiding, namely do I believe that alcohol is something positive and should be encouraged, is somethign I can not answer on the grounds that it is a loaded question. It assumes that alcohol is something that has either negative or positive connotations. I take issue with this unnecessary conjunction.

And to answer a couple of your other questions "I didn't ask whether or not you tolerated or even if you accepted the behavior of others. What's the point of giving something a name, like straight edge, if it's just a personal commitment?" Well a personal committment is just that and must a have a name.

"Why associate with others if that's the case? " Because there is a shared common interest that is probably rare and quite uncommon.


"I honestly believe that the world would be better place without drugs and alcohol and I have a really hard time understanding how someone could identify with straight edge, with all of the slogans, lyrics, etc , and believe the drinking and drug use is ok" Well i have a really hard time understanding why someone would think that the world would be better without alcohol. I am pretty sure there have been a great many tyrants that were not alcoholics. And if someone who is sxe feels that the world would be a better place without alcohol then that is their opinion not a necessary condition for being sxe. Being sxe is about a lifestyle, not an opinion about world politics or social ethics.

To contrast your statement, I don't think ridding the world of drugs and alcohol will make a bit of difference. I think ridding the world of pride and selfishness might. So again, sxe, as far as I understand it and not as it is propounded by some, or maybe even many, through the microphones of certain bands, is about abstaining from these things for that person. They are wrong FOR ME, not FOR EVERYONE. If you can not understand how I separate myself from others, just think of it this way...every person is unique...furthermore there are similarities between some persons more than others...these similarities immediately put them in groups...these groups function and behave and act differently than others in other social groups even when subjected to the same diets, situations, life conditions, etc...with this in mind, the best for me is different than the best for you...there are general morals and rules that apply to all...I don't think that this includes alcohol and the like...so, sxe is a specific set of guidelines that govern individuals, not individuality...sxe is a lifestyle for certain humans, not humanity...see the difference...how much clearer can I make myself.

Now I assume you disagree, so where does this leave us? Well I would suppose that you must ask yourself, can someone be sxe who doesn't believe alcohol is bad for ALL people. If so, i have a question for you, why is that? And if one can not, why not?

[xsecx]

First, i didn't say drug use was OK. It is illegal after all. And as far as your question which you felt I have been avoiding, namely do I believe that alcohol is something positive and should be encouraged, is somethign I can not answer on the grounds that it is a loaded question. It assumes that alcohol is something that has either negative or positive connotations. I take issue with this unnecessary conjunction.

So what makes drugs different from alcohol? What about tobacco?
I don't see how it's a loaded question at all, something is either something that should be encouraged or discouraged. Does alcohol have negative side effects? Are the negative side effects of alcohol use severe enough that it should be avoided? Or are there positives about it's use should be encouraged?



And to answer a couple of your other questions "I didn't ask whether or not you tolerated or even if you accepted the behavior of others. What's the point of giving something a name, like straight edge, if it's just a personal commitment?" Well a personal committment is just that and must a have a name.


If it's personal then it has no baring on anyone else, so naming it is pointless.



"Why associate with others if that's the case? " Because there is a shared common interest that is probably rare and quite uncommon.


but you just said taht it was personal, so how could it be a shared common interest? What would that shared common interest be? Just simply being sober? If you see no problems with drugs or alcohol, why even make the distinction?



"I honestly believe that the world would be better place without drugs and alcohol and I have a really hard time understanding how someone could identify with straight edge, with all of the slogans, lyrics, etc , and believe the drinking and drug use is ok" Well i have a really hard time understanding why someone would think that the world would be better without alcohol. I am pretty sure there have been a great many tyrants that were not alcoholics. And if someone who is sxe feels that the world would be a better place without alcohol then that is their opinion not a necessary condition for being sxe. Being sxe is about a lifestyle, not an opinion about world politics or social ethics.


wait, so you honestly believe that alcohol isn't a direct contributing factors in anything that's wrong with the world? I honestly am calling bullshit on your now, if you think straight edge isn't about world politics or social ethics you clearly haven't listened to very many edge bands. Straight edge is more than just not doing drugs or alcohol.



To contrast your statement, I don't think ridding the world of drugs and alcohol will make a bit of difference. I think ridding the world of pride and selfishness might. So again, sxe, as far as I understand it and not as it is propounded by some, or maybe even many, through the microphones of certain bands, is about abstaining from these things for that person. They are wrong FOR ME, not FOR EVERYONE. If you can not understand how I separate myself from others, just think of it this way...every person is unique...furthermore there are similarities between some persons more than others...these similarities immediately put them in groups...these groups function and behave and act differently than others in other social groups even when subjected to the same diets, situations, life conditions, etc...with this in mind, the best for me is different than the best for you...there are general morals and rules that apply to all...I don't think that this includes alcohol and the like...so, sxe is a specific set of guidelines that govern individuals, not individuality...sxe is a lifestyle for certain humans, not humanity...see the difference...how much clearer can I make myself.


So drugs and alcohol are not contributing factor to crime, violence, abuse, health problems, death and their absence would make no difference? Really? Drunk drivers would exist then? I find this statement completely ridiculous.



Now I assume you disagree, so where does this leave us? Well I would suppose that you must ask yourself, can someone be sxe who doesn't believe alcohol is bad for ALL people. If so, i have a question for you, why is that? And if one can not, why not?

I've already asked myself that question long ago and the answer's the same. I cannot reconcile how someone would take an extreme stance on drugs and alcohol and calling themselves straight edge and ally themselves with everyone else and everything else about it and not feel strongly about the subject globally since it does effect everyone and it's simply down to what a person does in the comfort of their own home with no effect to anyone but themselves.

[xmountbrockenx]

"So what makes drugs different from alcohol? What about tobacco?
I don't see how it's a loaded question at all, something is either something that should be encouraged or discouraged. Does alcohol have negative side effects? Are the negative side effects of alcohol use severe enough that it should be avoided? Or are there positives about it's use should be encouraged?"

I think that there is a third option, namely it isn't the sort of thing that is encouraged or discouraged. I don't encouraage or discourage the eating of meat. If there are negative side effects then these are due to its misuse, not its overall usage.


" If it's personal then it has no baring on anyone else, so naming it is pointless"

It has a bearing on others who hold to the view. Also, I think that abstaining from alcohol and the like, as I've said, is for certain types of people. I am one of those types of people. So while it is personal it also is a preferred lifestyle for one in the punk/hardcore scene; not a wine tester in France or a simple farmer in England or what have you.

"but you just said taht it was personal, so how could it be a shared common interest? What would that shared common interest be? Just simply being sober? If you see no problems with drugs or alcohol, why even make the distinction?"

Its a personal committment rooted in certain types of people that would not only benefit from being sober but are more likely to be immoral when drinking...thats just what I believe.

"wait, so you honestly believe that alcohol isn't a direct contributing factors in anything that's wrong with the world? I honestly am calling bullshit on your now, if you think straight edge isn't about world politics or social ethics you clearly haven't listened to very many edge bands. Straight edge is more than just not doing drugs or alcohol."

I didn't say it wasn't a direct contributing factor, anymore than a secondary cause exists in the collaboration for and of a final cause. But this has nothing to do with being sxe in my view. One does so not because they see it as being dangerous, but because it inhibits one's being the best they can be.

And as far as the bands that speak out against a global effort to rid the world of alcohol, so what? I don't care what they say, for me sxe is about a personal committment rooted in certain types of people that would not only benefit from being sober but are more likely to be immoral when drinking.


"So drugs and alcohol are not contributing factor to crime, violence, abuse, health problems, death and their absence would make no difference? Really? Drunk drivers would exist then? I find this statement completely ridiculous. "

ad hoc. I am not sxe because drinking is dangerous or a contributing factor to crime. Rather, I am because I personally hate to drink and for me, and many others LIKE me (those in the hardcore/punk scene) it is wrong for people like us.


"I've already asked myself that question long ago and the answer's the same. I cannot reconcile how someone would take an extreme stance on drugs and alcohol and calling themselves straight edge and ally themselves with everyone else and everything else about it and not feel strongly about the subject globally since it does effect everyone and it's simply down to what a person does in the comfort of their own home with no effect to anyone but themselves."

Well, all I can say is that we as people are quite different. Sure we have similiarities, but we also have some extreme differences. I think if everyone LIKE ME didn't drink, do drugs or sleep around, THAT WORLD would be better. And while sleeping around and drugs are typically bad for all, I am not sure that I can say that about alcohol FOR ALL people, at all times.

[xsecx]

I think that there is a third option, namely it isn't the sort of thing that is encouraged or discouraged. I don't encouraage or discourage the eating of meat. If there are negative side effects then these are due to its misuse, not its overall usage.

Then it's something you think that people should do then, because you don't see any problem with it. This of course doesn't explain why you think alcohol is different from tobacco.



It has a bearing on others who hold to the view. Also, I think that abstaining from alcohol and the like, as I've said, is for certain types of people. I am one of those types of people. So while it is personal it also is a preferred lifestyle for one in the punk/hardcore scene; not a wine tester in France or a simple farmer in England or what have you.


Yeah but what you're describing doesn't matter, because it has nothing to do with anyone but the individual and doesn't extend beyond the individual.



Its a personal committment rooted in certain types of people that would not only benefit from being sober but are more likely to be immoral when drinking...thats just what I believe.


why are you restricting it just to certain types of people? Why wouldn't everyone benefit from being sober?




I didn't say it wasn't a direct contributing factor, anymore than a secondary cause exists in the collaboration for and of a final cause. But this has nothing to do with being sxe in my view. One does so not because they see it as being dangerous, but because it inhibits one's being the best they can be.


So it's a factor, and therefore a negative thing, but somehow has nothing to do with being straight edge? Do you really think that people don't decide what activity they choose to take part in whether or not there is a personal risk attached to it?




And as far as the bands that speak out against a global effort to rid the world of alcohol, so what? I don't care what they say, for me sxe is about a personal committment rooted in certain types of people that would not only benefit from being sober but are more likely to be immoral when drinking.


So you accept the fact that yes, to everyone else, but apparently you, that we all agree that the world would be a better place without alcohol.
why would only certain types of people benefit from being sober?




ad hoc. I am not sxe because drinking is dangerous or a contributing factor to crime. Rather, I am because I personally hate to drink and for me, and many others LIKE me (those in the hardcore/punk scene) it is wrong for people like us.

Why do you personally hate to drink then? Why do you only seem to care about people like you rather than humanity? Do you feel the same way about drug use, since you completely ignored that the comparison to tobacco and other drugs.



Well, all I can say is that we as people are quite different. Sure we have similiarities, but we also have some extreme differences. I think if everyone LIKE ME didn't drink, do drugs or sleep around, THAT WORLD would be better. And while sleeping around and drugs are typically bad for all, I am not sure that I can say that about alcohol FOR ALL people, at all times.
So why is it limited to just people like you? Why are drugs bad for all, but alcohol isn't? Your viewpoint is inconsistent.

[x JAMES x]

No, you can't.

:D

[kuro]

i think at the end of the day there is no wrong or right way to live your life.
some ppl choose to abstain, some not. its your choice, not the decision of the majority.

its all about choosing what you want to do without other people making up your mind for you.

whether you want to believe in one thing or not, its your choice. why be bonded by rules?
rather live to your own expectations - not other people's.

in all honesty we all contradict ourselves, there is no way around it, no one is perfect we are all contradicting ourselves one way or another.

if all subcultures are meant to be different from society's expectation, why do they, whether they are goth, metal, emo, punk, etc all have their own looks and expectations within? all claiming to be 'different' but they all follow eachother, in dressing, music, beliefs etc...

it think its all Bullsht.

just do what you want to do and let others live the way they want to live.

[xsecx]

i think at the end of the day there is no wrong or right way to live your life.
some ppl choose to abstain, some not. its your choice, not the decision of the majority.

its all about choosing what you want to do without other people making up your mind for you.

whether you want to believe in one thing or not, its your choice. why be bonded by rules?
rather live to your own expectations - not other people's.

in all honesty we all contradict ourselves, there is no way around it, no one is perfect we are all contradicting ourselves one way or another.

if all subcultures are meant to be different from society's expectation, why do they, whether they are goth, metal, emo, punk, etc all have their own looks and expectations within? all claiming to be 'different' but they all follow eachother, in dressing, music, beliefs etc...

it think its all Bullsht.

just do what you want to do and let others live the way they want to live.

why wouldn't or shouldn't someone strive to live as consistently as possible? And why shouldn't other people point out when people are living lies? What people decide to do with it is ultimately their choice but that doesn't mean that the dialog isn't valuable.

[kuro]

why wouldn't or shouldn't someone strive to live as consistently as possible? And why shouldn't other people point out when people are living lies? What people decide to do with it is ultimately their choice but that doesn't mean that the dialog isn't valuable.

i agree with you xsecx to an extent.

yes we should strive to live a better quality of life consistently, but its also our right to choose not to.

And yes, I kind of agree to an extent that pointing things out to people can be a positive thing, but when it becomes extreme, it becomes imposing or even right wing.

its like someone who is into vegan lifestyle and someone who is not.
obviously they both have different opinions. but neither is right or wrong.
its just that one may believe strongly about something - the other may not. but they both dont have the right to enforce their opinions on eachother.

and in terms of people's opinions being 'valuable' - would mean (to me anyway) that you can believe in whatever you want to believe - whether it be about religion, politics, or whether guns are right or wrong, we are all entitled to our opinions, values and beliefs so long as it doesnt impose or oppress other people.

the sad truth is we cant change people's minds.

even what we are discussing here on this forum, whatever the heck im rambling on about might not be of value or mean anything to the person next to me, but hey.. we are all entitled to it...

[x JAMES x]

you CANNOT be christian and be straightedge. HAIL SATAN!

[FELON500]

I'm an Independent Baptist, and it seems to be working fine for me.

----------------
Now playing: Chosen Few - Do the Manic to kill or maim honey - Root and a Beer (killedbydeath.org -- only the finest raw punk crap you've not heard of. if they're famous, they won't be here.) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/chosen+few+-+do+the+manic+to+kill+or+maim+honey/track/root+and+a+beer)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[xsecx]

I'm an Independent Baptist, and it seems to be working fine for me.

guess you didn't really read anything other than the title..

[FELON500]

^ All 52 pages...no...

Busted!

My answer was on topic...right?

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Now playing: F - Citizens Arrest - You Are an EP (killedbydeath.org -- only the finest raw punk crap you've not heard of. if they're famous, they won't be here.) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/f+-+citizens+arrest/track/you+are+an+ep)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[xsecx]

^ All 52 pages...no...

Busted!

My answer was on topic...right?

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Now playing: F - Citizens Arrest - You Are an EP (killedbydeath.org -- only the finest raw punk crap you've not heard of. if they're famous, they won't be here.) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/f+-+citizens+arrest/track/you+are+an+ep)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

not really. could you also please remove bottom part of your messages?

[FELON500]

Straight edge is a life long commitment to abstain from all forms of recreational drugs including alcohol and cigarettes, and, depending on where you are from and personal definition of the term, to abstain from promiscuous sex.

These are the only guidelines for straight edge; all other lifestyle choices such as diet, religion, and political views are all optional disciplines often associated with straight edge.

So according to the most common set of straight edge guidelines that I can find. The answer is YES. You can be Christian and Straightedge.

P.S. Dusty...I sent you a P.M. concerning your request about the bottom parts of my post. Please reply when ever you have time. Thanx.

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Now playing: Youth Brigade - Men In Blue (Part 1) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/youth+brigade/track/men+in+blue+%28part+1%29)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

[straightXed]

Straight edge is a life long commitment to abstain from all forms of recreational drugs including alcohol and cigarettes, and, depending on where you are from and personal definition of the term, to abstain from promiscuous sex.

These are the only guidelines for straight edge; all other lifestyle choices such as diet, religion, and political views are all optional disciplines often associated with straight edge.

So according to the most common set of straight edge guidelines that I can find. The answer is YES. You can be Christian and Straightedge.

P.S. Dusty...I sent you a P.M. concerning your request about the bottom parts of my post. Please reply when ever you have time. Thanx.

----------------
Now playing: Youth Brigade - Men In Blue (Part 1) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/youth+brigade/track/men+in+blue+%28part+1%29)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

Are you sure you read it all? Your reply gives the impression that you didn't.

[FELON500]

Are you sure you read it all? Your reply gives the impression that you didn't.

Nah, I got bored.

[straightXed]

Nah, I got bored.

So why not read it and see what people are discussing?

[FELON500]

So why lie and say you did?

Because I can. (Yes I caught that before you edited it out)


So why not read it and see what people are discussing?

Because I don't have to.

[straightXed]

Because I can. (Yes I caught that before you edited it out)

yeah i misread what you put originaly, i thought you said you had read all 52 pages, my mistake. Thats why in my first reply i was under the impression you had read it all and was wondering why your post didn't relate to what has been discussed thus far.




Because I don't have to.


well then theres no point adding to the discussion if you aren't prepared to read what others have to say on it, it kind of ceases to be a discussion then. And seeing as what you are replying with ignores all the rather valid points raised it makes it pretty redundant anyway. But no, you don't have to read the thread but it makes sense to if you wish to enter into a discussion, surely you don't expect people to type out the arguments for and against just for you because you can't be bothered to read the discussion?

[FELON500]

This topic was started by Collin. So I really only have to address him when replying. He's the one who asked the question.

I think my reply with the most common guidelines of being Edge sticks to the topic and answers Collins question quite well.
IMO this thread was hijacked and then spun off topic through various arguments.
All these various arguments could have been new topic starters making for a more fulfilling experience for all.
Just because I don't want to argue fruitlessly, as apposed to an actual debate, doesn't mean I don't have something of value to say.


Now...these are just my opinions. I should have a right to them like anybody else. I'm not trying to sway anyone from theirs or convince anyone of anything.

[straightXed]

This topic was started by Collin. So I really only have to address him when replying. He's the one who asked the question.

I think my reply with the most common guidelines of being Edge sticks to the topic and answers Collins question quite well.
IMO this thread was hijacked and then spun off topic through various arguments.
All these various arguments could have been new topic starters making for a more fulfilling experience for all.
Just because I don't want to argue fruitlessly, as apposed to an actual debate, doesn't mean I don't have something of value to say.


Now...these are just my opinions. I should have a right to them like anybody else. I'm not trying to sway anyone from theirs or convince anyone of anything.

Perhaps quoting the person you are responding to would be sound advice then! Because it looks like you are just joining in with the discussion as is.

Its really quite interesting that reasons you can't be edge and christian are considered hijacking and off topic by you.

Seeing as the various arguments are in direct response to the subject of reconciling christianity and edge i fail to see a reason for them not to be in this thread. I am unsure also as to how it would enrich your experience if they were not in this thread, would you care to ellaborate?

Well i haven't suggested you have nothing of value to say but your actions of disregarding the points that go against and contradict your opinion does give off a certain impression. Now i understand that that thus far there really hasn't been a sound argument for reconciling christianity and edge so i can see why you feel it would be fruitless but simply ignoring these points makes for an equally fruitless experience.

And again, i have not said you aren't entitled to your opinions, in fact far from it. All i am saying is there are opinions and points raised in this discussion that seem to leave the idea of it being possible to be straightedge and christian highly questionable at best. But like i say, i can understand how it seems fruitless to debate that, i can't see a possible way to reconcile the two and perhaps neither can you.

[xsecx]

Straight edge is a life long commitment to abstain from all forms of recreational drugs including alcohol and cigarettes, and, depending on where you are from and personal definition of the term, to abstain from promiscuous sex.

These are the only guidelines for straight edge; all other lifestyle choices such as diet, religion, and political views are all optional disciplines often associated with straight edge.

So according to the most common set of straight edge guidelines that I can find. The answer is YES. You can be Christian and Straightedge.

P.S. Dusty...I sent you a P.M. concerning your request about the bottom parts of my post. Please reply when ever you have time. Thanx.

----------------
Now playing: Youth Brigade - Men In Blue (Part 1) (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/youth+brigade/track/men+in+blue+%28part+1%29)
via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

this statement is ironic since the issue is with how christianity views and deals with alcohol and not really an issue about straight edge at all.

[FELON500]

this statement is ironic since the issue is with how christianity views and deals with alcohol and not really an issue about straight edge at all.

Actually the topic of this thread is and I quote "Can You Be Christian And Straight Edge?"

ROFL..How the hell can it NOT be about Straight Edge when it's written right there in the question??

C'mon man, seriously, I've read some of your other posts. You're a very intelligent and educated person.

"How Christianity views and deals with alcohol" is another TOPIC, maybe related to this, but another issue none the less. I would love to see this issue as it's own thread.

[xsecx]

Actually the topic of this thread is and I quote "Can You Be Christian And Straight Edge?"

ROFL..How the hell can it NOT be about Straight Edge when it's written right there in the question??

C'mon man, seriously, I've read some of your other posts. You're a very intelligent and educated person.

"How Christianity views and deals with alcohol" is another TOPIC, maybe related to this, but another issue none the less. I would love to see this issue as it's own thread.

the title of the thread is that. The topic is actually the issues that come with christianity's view of alcohol and how it's in opposition with the straight edge view of alcohol use. It doesn't need it's own thread, it just needs you to read more than just the title, since the topic goes far deeper than just the title.

[FELON500]

the title of the thread is that. The topic is actually the issues that come with christianity's view of alcohol and how it's in opposition with the straight edge view of alcohol use. It doesn't need it's own thread, it just needs you to read more than just the title, since the topic goes far deeper than just the title.

No, actually I think that WAS the problem, by page 36 some how or another I became severely confused.

LOL! Why didn't you just tell me to go back to page one? I'm with ya now.

Except for one thing..I see contradiction on both sides of this argument.

[xsecx]

LOL! Why didn't you just tell me to go back to page one? I'm with ya now.

Except for one thing..I see contradiction on both sides of this argument.

then that would be a good place to start the discussion then.

[FELON500]

then that would be a good place to start the discussion then.

It may be a while, I'm gathering facts to back up my points.

[Pilaf]

A Christian can be sXe, but since sXe is rooted in the non-conservative and non-mainstream hardcore scene, there might be some conflicts of ideology there.

The whole debate about whether Catholics can take communion and be sXe is a whole other can of worms, and a discussion I'm frankly sick of having. It's my personal opinion that if it comes to that, a person would have to choose between sXe and Catholicism, but many others disagree. My opinion is probably tainted by my bias against organized religion, which is of course a contradiction since sXe could be seen by many to be a similar organized commitment to ideals.

[FELON500]

^true that!

[xsecx]

A Christian can be sXe, but since sXe is rooted in the non-conservative and non-mainstream hardcore scene, there might be some conflicts of ideology there.

The whole debate about whether Catholics can take communion and be sXe is a whole other can of worms, and a discussion I'm frankly sick of having. It's my personal opinion that if it comes to that, a person would have to choose between sXe and Catholicism, but many others disagree. My opinion is probably tainted by my bias against organized religion, which is of course a contradiction since sXe could be seen by many to be a similar organized commitment to ideals.

Did you even read the thread? Why do you think a christian can be straight edge, in light of the scriptural issues brought up in the thread?

[Emily852]

yes..........you can be christian and straightedge. Half of you don't even know what the fuck you're saying anyways.

[SgtD]

yes..........you can be christian and straightedge. Half of you don't even know what the fuck you're saying anyways.

you have very valid points there...please just read the thread from the beginning, you don't have to read it all way through, it's pretty repetitive.
get your shit right.

[Emily852]

you have very valid points there...please just read the thread from the beginning, you don't have to read it all way through, it's pretty repetitive.
get your shit right.

I read the 1st few pages and all I read was a bunch of dumbasses talking over petty shit that should be pretty much common sense if you're christian.
my shit is right....i was just saying

[xsecx]

I read the 1st few pages and all I read was a bunch of dumbasses talking over petty shit that should be pretty much common sense if you're christian.
my shit is right....i was just saying

so blasphemy of the lord is petty?

also using the term common sense and christian in the same sentence is hilarious.

[Emily852]

so blasphemy of the lord is petty?

also using the term common sense and christian in the same sentence is hilarious.

no.....the fact that it should be common sense is what makes it petty

[xsecx]

no.....the fact that it should be common sense is what makes it petty

so what exactly should be common sense? that you don't know more than your god?

[Emily852]

so what exactly should be common sense? that you don't know more than your god?

everything you need to know is right in the bible....people keep asking all these questions like "so why is there wine in church etc etc" it doesnt say anywhere in the bible that you have to drink and it doesn't condone getting drunk. it says matthew 24:48 "But if you are evil and say to yourself, 'My lord won't be coming for a while,' and begin opressing your fellow servants, partying and getting drunk, your Lord will arrive unannounced and unexpected, and severely whip you and send you off to the judgement of the hypocrites; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". And in church, you don't even have to drink the wine if you don't want to.
And whoever's saying "but Jesus drank so I don't like him" well have fun with that I know other people that are straightedge and a few people in courage crew who are still friends with people that drink occasionally. As long as you follow what you think or know is right in your heart and still stay strong with your own personal choices, I really don't see how it can be a problem.

[xsecx]

everything you need to know is right in the bible....people keep asking all these questions like "so why is there wine in church etc etc" it doesnt say anywhere in the bible that you have to drink and it doesn't condone getting drunk. it says matthew 24:48 "But if you are evil and say to yourself, 'My lord won't be coming for a while,' and begin opressing your fellow servants, partying and getting drunk, your Lord will arrive unannounced and unexpected, and severely whip you and send you off to the judgement of the hypocrites; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth". And in church, you don't even have to drink the wine if you don't want to.
And whoever's saying "but Jesus drank so I don't like him" well have fun with that I know other people that are straightedge and a few people in courage crew who are still friends with people that drink occasionally. As long as you follow what you think or know is right in your heart and still stay strong with your own personal choices, I really don't see how it can be a problem.

do you believe that drinking is wrong and something that the world would be better off without?

[Emily852]

do you believe that drinking is wrong and something that the world would be better off without?

i think it's unnecessary.....except in respect of the church for their symbolic use of it but I personally don't even drink it there.

[xsecx]

i think it's unnecessary.....except in respect of the church for their symbolic use of it but I personally don't even drink it there.

then you're in disagreement with your god, and therefore committing blasphemy.

[Emily852]

then you're in disagreement with your god, and therefore committing blasphemy.

no? In the bible it said Jesus took his blood and told his deciples to drink it.
That was then. Today the church just carries on that tradition in a symbolic sense. They did it on their own. It's not a sin if you don't drink it.

[CarlaRant]

I've been staying out of this thread for personal reasons, but the last post made me curious. So I went to my bible (New International Version) to look up the Lord's Supper which everyone is talking about (Matthew 26:17-30) because I don't think that the cup that was passed the dinner table was Jesus's actual blood, but wine used as a symbol; thus the argument on this site.

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, 'Take and eat; this is my body.'"

"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sings. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.'"

I thought line 29 was very interesting, stating that Jesus would drink "the fruit of the vine" (wine) until the disciples meet him in his father's kingdom; which could be interpreted as heaven or as some fundamental Christians claim, the second coming. So then could the argument be that it would be wise to not drink wine until humanity sees Jesus again? Christians are just followers of Jesus; he sets the example.

I know that the core of the argument here is if we as individuals claiming straightedge believe that drinking is wrong. And if so, does that belief fly in the face of Jesus's actions? Again, I think this all boils down to interpretation of both the bible and the straightedge lifestyle and ideology. I don't think drinking in moderation is wrong, but it's obviously not the best choice for me.

[xsecx]

no? In the bible it said Jesus took his blood and told his deciples to drink it.
That was then. Today the church just carries on that tradition in a symbolic sense. They did it on their own. It's not a sin if you don't drink it.

it wasn't blood, it was wine. It was wine at the wedding in cana. It is a sin to think that god is wrong. If you think the consumption of alcohol is wrong, it's in direct conflict with the teachings and actions of jesus.

[xsecx]

I've been staying out of this thread for personal reasons, but the last post made me curious. So I went to my bible (New International Version) to look up the Lord's Supper which everyone is talking about (Matthew 26:17-30) because I don't think that the cup that was passed the dinner table was Jesus's actual blood, but wine used as a symbol; thus the argument on this site.

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, 'Take and eat; this is my body.'"

"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sings. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.'"

I thought line 29 was very interesting, stating that Jesus would drink "the fruit of the vine" (wine) until the disciples meet him in his father's kingdom; which could be interpreted as heaven or as some fundamental Christians claim, the second coming. So then could the argument be that it would be wise to not drink wine until humanity sees Jesus again? Christians are just followers of Jesus; he sets the example.

I know that the core of the argument here is if we as individuals claiming straightedge believe that drinking is wrong. And if so, does that belief fly in the face of Jesus's actions? Again, I think this all boils down to interpretation of both the bible and the straightedge lifestyle and ideology. I don't think drinking in moderation is wrong, but it's obviously not the best choice for me.

You also have to take into account the wedding at cana. The simple fact of the matter is that jesus had no problem or issue with the consumption of alcohol. This really isn't up to interpretation or argument. I also completely fail to understand how someone can be straight edge and not think that drinking alcohol is wrong. There's a difference between accepting the choices of others and believing that they are positive and something that should be encouraged. I couldn't imagine anyone who calls themselves straight edge honestly believing that the world wouldn't be a better place if there was no alcohol.

[Emily852]

it wasn't blood, it was wine. It was wine at the wedding in cana. It is a sin to think that god is wrong. If you think the consumption of alcohol is wrong, it's in direct conflict with the teachings and actions of jesus.

Forst of all, Mark 14:23 says "Then he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it and gave it to them, "This is my blood, poured out for many, sealing the new agreement between God and man."'

I'm not judging god on why he used wine but I certainly don't think it was to get everyone drunk.

You can think whatever you want but I seriously think your mind is fucked up becase religion isn't politics. It's really not about all the things you do wrong.


I don't even think you got the point where I said you can even be friends with people who drink occasionally and it doesnt mean you're condoning or encouraging it. It kind of ties into the whole "but Jesus did alcohol" thing. You can keep trying to twist it and make it look like it's disagreeing with him or turning your back on him or whatever, and it's not any form of sin by not liking alcohol and not drinking it. And that doesn't go against any "rules" of straightedge.

It doesn't say anywhere that it's a sin thinking God is wrong but it does say you're a fool if you don't follow his word and I'm not breaking any word when it comes to being straightedge. I don't know what you think blasphemy is....but it's turning your back on God. Being straightedge and not liking alcohol is not blasphemy in your little dramatic mind.

[xsecx]

Forst of all, Mark 14:23 says "Then he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it and gave it to them, "This is my blood, poured out for many, sealing the new agreement between God and man."'

that doesn't make it blood, it was symbolic, even if you want think that it was, then focus on the wedding at cana where he gave alcohol to people who were already drunk.



I'm not judging god on why he used wine but I certainly don't think it was to get everyone drunk.

You can think whatever you want but I seriously think your mind is fucked up becase religion isn't politics. It's really not about all the things you do wrong.


So you think that the consumption of alcohol is fine and something you should do? I also don't really understand why you think my mind is fucked up? Religion is about beliefs and living in accordance to those beliefs. The entire point of this thread is that there are very real conflicts between 2 sets of beliefs. 1 set believes that drinking is wrong. 1 set believes that it isn't.




I don't even think you got the point where I said you can even be friends with people who drink occasionally and it doesnt mean you're condoning or encouraging it. It kind of ties into the whole "but Jesus did alcohol" thing. You can keep trying to twist it and make it look like it's disagreeing with him or turning your back on him or whatever, and it's not any form of sin by not liking alcohol and not drinking it. And that doesn't go against any "rules" of straightedge.


No, I got the point, it's just not relevant. You don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in god. Take alcohol, homosexuality, moral veganism. If your views differ from that of god, then you're guilty of the sin of blasphemy. You saying that it isn't a sin, doesn't really mean anything.




It doesn't say anywhere that it's a sin thinking God is wrong but it does say you're a fool if you don't follow his word and I'm not breaking any word when it comes to being straightedge. I don't know what you think blasphemy is....but it's turning your back on God. Being straightedge and not liking alcohol is not blasphemy in your little dramatic mind.



Main Entry:
blas·phe·my Listen to the pronunciation of blasphemy
Pronunciation:
\ˈblas-fə-mē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural blas·phe·mies
Date:
13th century

1 a: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God

Thinking god is wrong, is in fact showing a lack of reverence for god and is insulting. I don't think you understand what blasphemy is and I get the feeling that you're one of those christians that just ignore the parts of the bible you don't agree with rather than coming to terms with the fact that it's a flawed book and a flawed religion. I just find it hilarious that people think that they're good pious christians but then talk about how god is wrong. The fact that you think your god can be wrong, your omniscient all powerful god is wrong, speaks volumes on what your actual beliefs are and what they're based on.

[Emily852]

that doesn't make it blood, it was symbolic, even if you want think that it was, then focus on the wedding at cana where he gave alcohol to people who were already drunk.
It doesn't say anywhere that the people got drunk or that they were already drunk



Religion is about beliefs and living in accordance to those beliefs. The entire point of this thread is that there are very real conflicts between 2 sets of beliefs. 1 set believes that drinking is wrong. 1 set believes that it isn't.
Christianity isn't entirely made up of 1 belief that "drinking is okay" and that's not what it's based on.



You don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in god.
I understand clearly...



Take alcohol, homosexuality, moral veganism. If your views differ from that of god, then you're guilty of the sin of blasphemy. You saying that it isn't a sin, doesn't really mean anything.
I'm not commiting any of those, except the "moral veganism". I do find it wrong to mistreat animals and I barely eat meat anyways because it isn't healthy for you. I don't own anything made from real leather. I try to make sure all my cosmetics don't do testing on animals. So I don't know where you're getting that idea from.



Main Entry:
blas·phe·my Listen to the pronunciation of blasphemy
Pronunciation:
\ˈblas-fə-mē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural blas·phe·mies
Date:
13th century
1 a: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
Thinking god is wrong, is in fact showing a lack of reverence for god and is insulting.

I never said I think God is wrong.......so really......how is it relevant then. He used wine before. So what. I never drank any. And I don't plan on it.

[xsecx]

It doesn't say anywhere that the people got drunk or that they were already drunk

the well drunk part of the scripture. It's kind of insane to think that people had wine flowing at a wedding and that people wouldn't get drunk.



Christianity isn't entirely made up of 1 belief that "drinking is okay" and that's not what it's based on.

entirely or not, it's based on the infallibility of god. in christianity drinking is encouraged and was an activity done by your god. in straight edge, drinking is discouraged and something not done by anyone who is straight edge. these beliefs contradict each other.



I understand clearly...


then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about.



I'm not commiting any of those, except the "moral veganism". I do find it wrong to mistreat animals and I barely eat meat anyways because it isn't healthy for you. I don't own anything made from real leather. I try to make sure all my cosmetics don't do testing on animals. So I don't know where you're getting that idea from.


so you don't disagree with the view of god at all then? I was using those as exampled. the problem of blasphemy exists if for instance, you don't have an issue with homosexuality, if you have an issue with the eating of animals, etc. The problem exists way beyond just straight edge. The morality of christianity doesn't change with time, while the morality of humanity does.



I never said I think God is wrong.......so really......how is it relevant then. He used wine before. So what. I never drank any. And I don't plan on it.

No, you just act like you think he's wrong. Since you ignored the rest of my post and didn't refute it, I'm guessing I hit the nail on the head, so what else do you simply ignore because it doesn't fit your world view?

[Emily852]

the well drunk part of the scripture.
what?


It's kind of insane to think that people had wine flowing at a wedding and that people wouldn't get drunk.
have you ever been to a formal event? it is possible for people to not get drunk.




in christianity drinking is encouraged and was an activity done by your god. in straight edge, drinking is discouraged and something not done by anyone who is straight edge. these beliefs contradict each other.
just because it's encouraged doesn't mean it's a sin if you don't do it. it says 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."
All the quotes in the bible that encourage drinking wine etc etc are all in the old testement anyways. If you follow only the old testement, you're jewish. There are no quotes in the bible in the new testement encouraging drinking. There's only examples of Jesus making wine. But back to what I said of that corinthians quote. So it's not a problem.




then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about.
you said "you don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in God" and I said "I understand clearly...." and then you said "then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about." What???





so you don't disagree with the view of god at all then? I was using those as exampled. the problem of blasphemy exists if for instance, you don't have an issue with homosexuality, if you have an issue with the eating of animals, etc. The problem exists way beyond just straight edge. The morality of christianity doesn't change with time, while the morality of humanity does.
If the problem exists way beyond straight edge then what's this have to do with straight edge anymore then???



No, you just act like you think he's wrong. Since you ignored the rest of my post and didn't refute it, I'm guessing I hit the nail on the head, so what else do you simply ignore because it doesn't fit your world view?
I don't think he's wrong, and I never said I think he's wrong. I think I'm wrong to drink it and i have "permission" to think I'd be wrong to drink it because of 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."


There's no issue with being straight edge and christian

[xsecx]

what?

john 2 , 1-11
1
1 On the third day there was a wedding 2 in Cana 3 in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
2
Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.
3
When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no wine."
4
4 (And) Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come."
5
His mother said to the servers, "Do whatever he tells you."
6
5 Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons.
7
Jesus told them, "Fill the jars with water." So they filled them to the brim.
8
Then he told them, "Draw some out now and take it to the headwaiter." 6 So they took it.
9
And when the headwaiter tasted the water that had become wine, without knowing where it came from (although the servers who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter called the bridegroom
10
and said to him, "Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now."
11
Jesus did this as the beginning of his signs 7 in Cana in Galilee and so revealed his glory, and his disciples began to believe in him.

folks were already drunk or at least well on their way when jesus turned the water to wine.


have you ever been to a formal event? it is possible for people to not get drunk.

I have, and thats why I know that if people are drinking wine to celebrate, and you add something like 180 gallons of wine to it, that people are going to get shitfaced, it's what people do. If you don't want to get drunk at all, you don't drink wine.




just because it's encouraged doesn't mean it's a sin if you don't do it. it says 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."
All the quotes in the bible that encourage drinking wine etc etc are all in the old testement anyways. If you follow only the old testement, you're jewish. There are no quotes in the bible in the new testement encouraging drinking. There's only examples of Jesus making wine. But back to what I said of that corinthians quote. So it's not a problem.


It's these statements that prove to me that you don't get it and are fixated on the wrong thing. The sin isn't not doing it. The sin is believing that the act is wrong and therefore thinking jesus is wrong. The wedding at cana wasn't in the old testament. The last supper wasn't in the old testament. I mean shit, people were drunk at the last supper. 1 Cor. 11:21.

1 cor 6. Your understanding of scripture is suspect. You're picking passages and a reallly weird translation out of context and trying to use it out of context to justify your position.


12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined [4] to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin [5] a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

this passage has nothing to do with that, but instead is talking sexual morality.



you said "you don't seem to understand that the sin is finding fault in God" and I said "I understand clearly...." and then you said "then why are you fixated on what other people do, when it's not relevant to what's being talked about." What???

You kept bringing up not having a problem with people drinking moderately, which continues to lead me to believe that you don't understand what is being talked about here.




If the problem exists way beyond straight edge then what's this have to do with straight edge anymore then???

just because the problem exists in more than just straight edge, doesn't mean it doesn't have anything to do with straight edge.



I don't think he's wrong, and I never said I think he's wrong. I think I'm wrong to drink it and i have "permission" to think I'd be wrong to drink it because of 1 Corinthians 6:12- "I can do anything I want to if Christ has not said no, but some of these things aren't good for me. Even if I am allowed to do them, I'll refuse to if I think they might get such a grip on me that I can't easily stop when I want to."


You think the act of drinking alcohol is wrong. And again, your grasp of scripture is comically bad.



There's no issue with being straight edge and christian
if you say it enough times, that won't change the facts. see you in hell!

[xsecx]

what?


holy shit, you have a paraphrased bible called the living bible. no wonder you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and have a fucked up idea of what the scripture says, you're not even familiar with the source, but a bad interpretation of the source that was so bad that the dude who wrote it chucked it and the newer version isn't anywhere near the shit you just spewed.

[Emily852]

which one were you using

[xsecx]

which one were you using

niv

[xWiglex]

49 pages...
49.. freaking pages....


On topic. There are things you shoulden't do. These are written and they are sins.
But why should god ban evryghting ? He does not. He gave you a chance to think..
You are in charge of your life. God has created you to live, but how to live is your choice.

As for me..
I hope you will live a sinless life and make the world better.

[straightXed]

49 pages...
49.. freaking pages....


On topic. There are things you shoulden't do. These are written and they are sins.
But why should god ban evryghting ? He does not. He gave you a chance to think..
You are in charge of your life. God has created you to live, but how to live is your choice.

As for me..
I hope you will live a sinless life and make the world better.

thats great but i wouldn't like to live by what the bible decribes as sin.

[xWiglex]

thats great but i wouldn't like to live by what the bible decribes as sin.


Anyway.. i can't say im actually a beliver .. But God does excist..
At least i know that..
I know it.. My prayers always got heard.. And im very thankful to him..
Perhaps it was just a coinsidence , but i really doubt that..

Even if im wrong.. Beeing nice to people in general is a good thing, even if you don't belive.

[straightXed]

Anyway.. i can't say im actually a beliver .. But God does excist..
At least i know that..
I know it.. My prayers always got heard.. And im very thankful to him..
Perhaps it was just a coinsidence , but i really doubt that..

Even if im wrong.. Beeing nice to people in general is a good thing, even if you don't belive.

Unless they prayed for something that was completely unlikely and impossible without some god like intervention i would say that is not a great reason to believe that god exists. I mean its completely possible that the things that happened for you could have (and probably did) happen without the help of god. I have no idea why you would doubt it so much, incidently, why is god a he?

Being nice to people is great but the bible is not nice to all people just those that fall in line with the beliefs of christianity, everyone else is going to hell simply for not believing not to mention unable to live a life that decent compassionate people can accept yet christians cannot. That, to me at least, is really not nice at all.

[Age of Faith]

Straitedge means no drinking, smoking, and drugs. That has nothing to do with religion. Just because jesus drank wine does not mean that a straitedge person can't believe in Jesus or God. I believe in God, and I am also straitedge. I have christian friends that are straitedge. Christianity and sxe are in no way related.

[rodrigo]

Straitedge means no drinking, smoking, and drugs. That has nothing to do with religion. Just because jesus drank wine does not mean that a straitedge person can't believe in Jesus or God. I believe in God, and I am also straitedge. I have christian friends that are straitedge. Christianity and sxe are in no way related.

did you read the thread at all?

[xsecx]

Straitedge means no drinking, smoking, and drugs. That has nothing to do with religion. Just because jesus drank wine does not mean that a straitedge person can't believe in Jesus or God. I believe in God, and I am also straitedge. I have christian friends that are straitedge. Christianity and sxe are in no way related.

I will delete your account immediately if you don't learn how to spell it right.

[alex147]

After being in the Catholic School system for a number of years, and being edge for the majority of those years, I can now say that I'm not really of the Catholic faith, but I believe that there's something else beyond death. For now I'm trying to lead my life as best I can, and the best for me is as a Straight Edge person.

[Age of Faith]

I will delete your account immediately if you don't learn how to spell it right.

good argument?

[straightXed]

good argument?

Its not like you actually have a good argument that has countered the points raised in the thread at all though is it...which is probably why your post wasn't addressed as a contending argument of how to reconcile straightedge and christianity, don't you agree?

[Age of Faith]

Its not like you actually have a good argument that has countered the points raised in the thread at all though is it...which is probably why your post wasn't addressed as a contending argument of how to reconcile straightedge and christianity, don't you agree?


I dont really need a good argument, I dont actually care if I win or lose this debate. I already said what I wanted to say, and that was Religion and Straightedge are in no way related. Thats it. Go ahead and attack me.

[straightXed]

I dont really need a good argument, I dont actually care if I win or lose this debate. I already said what I wanted to say, and that was Religion and Straightedge are in no way related. Thats it. Go ahead and attack me.


You need a good argument if a) you are entering into an already existing argument with well discussed points and b) if you are going to call someone else out on the strength of their argument.

You are right, they aren't related and further more one does not fit with the other without major contradiction to the point of blasphemy. If you believe otherwise the onus is on you to put forward an argument as to why that stands up against the points raised within this thread. But i'm not interested in attacking you at all so i'll have to pass on that one.

[easy]

OK I JUST SPENT MY ENTIRE MORNING READING THIS ENTIRE THREAD SO THAT I MAY MAKE A LEGIT POINT... so here it is!!! Can you be Christian and Straight Edge??? Yes, because Christianity is so full of inconsistencies and is based on fabrications by man. You are blindly following the word of people without truly knowing the facts of your god so why pay attention to any facts? You believe that drinking is wrong when you are sxe and according to what people have written about 'jesus' he drank wine... but you basically have to take everything written in the bible with a grain of salt. I say you can follow the basic principles and go to church and pretend to listen and feel like you are saving your soul but your religion is based on lies and fabrications so whether or not jesus existed or whether he drank some wine and possibly if he enjoyed banging hookers (just added that in for fun) is beside the point. BUT if you truly believe every word that is being preached to you and believe that jesus isn't metaphorical and really existed and really drank alcohol but you choose a sxe lifestyle, then you aren't really christian cuz your messiah approved of drinking and took part...

in short.... christianity is hypocritically forged so what's wrong with a little hypocracy in your own life choices? hahaha

[lo0m]

heh, i won't go much into detail.. i will also throw off the facts like when, why, and by whom were compiled Scriptures as we know then today.. but I surely recommend everyone who says he believes in Jesus (as a God) to find those information..

On topic - I don't see any reason why christian can't be straight edge (or vegan as there were claims in different thread I believe)...
sxe - Jesus drank wine? yes, that may be truth.. and what? is there any fuckin christian on this planet that can claim that he's doing WWJD? no, there is NONE.. and never was.. just think.. you have this "man".. but he's no man, he is God.. he knows everything, yet his knowledge is limited.. he is allpowerful, yet he has to ask in prayer to HIMSELF "why have you forsaken me?".. and there everything just falls apart.. if i should do what Jesus did according to this Roman Empire conspiracy called The Bible and if the last day will come and God will ask me "But why didn't you follow Jesus?" I can say with my head held high: "Because I have had no chance to do so and I had no chance to believe the Bible with the brain you gave me.."...
vegan - can be of course a christian... a christian trying to caught the glimpse of the Eden, where human beings were vegan... or from the stance of LOVE... according to 1 Cor 13:13:
" But now remains
faith, hope, love,
these three;
but the greatest of these is love. "
btw. that's one of the messages that New Testament really carries for me.. the word of love and compassion...

[straightXed]

heh, i won't go much into detail.. i will also throw off the facts like when, why, and by whom were compiled Scriptures as we know then today.. but I surely recommend everyone who says he believes in Jesus (as a God) to find those information..

On topic - I don't see any reason why christian can't be straight edge (or vegan as there were claims in different thread I believe)...
sxe - Jesus drank wine? yes, that may be truth.. and what? is there any fuckin christian on this planet that can claim that he's doing WWJD? no, there is NONE.. and never was.. just think.. you have this "man".. but he's no man, he is God.. he knows everything, yet his knowledge is limited.. he is allpowerful, yet he has to ask in prayer to HIMSELF "why have you forsaken me?".. and there everything just falls apart.. if i should do what Jesus did according to this Roman Empire conspiracy called The Bible and if the last day will come and God will ask me "But why didn't you follow Jesus?" I can say with my head held high: "Because I have had no chance to do so and I had no chance to believe the Bible with the brain you gave me.."...
vegan - can be of course a christian... a christian trying to caught the glimpse of the Eden, where human beings were vegan... or from the stance of LOVE... according to 1 Cor 13:13:
" But now remains
faith, hope, love,
these three;
but the greatest of these is love. "
btw. that's one of the messages that New Testament really carries for me.. the word of love and compassion...

So you are saying you think the actions of jesus were wrong, or are you saying you think drinking is right?

[lo0m]

i'm saying that comparing YOUR(or someone others) actions with someone who:

a) is God
b) was propably very different in person than in the Bible
or
c) maybe was a prophet but everything written about him is corrupted by man

is RIDICULOUS.. btw - i don't think that Jesus was drinking as I see drinking as bad choice..

[xsecx]

i'm saying that comparing YOUR(or someone others) actions with someone who:

a) is God
b) was propably very different in person than in the Bible
or
c) maybe was a prophet but everything written about him is corrupted by man

is RIDICULOUS.. btw - i don't think that Jesus was drinking as I see drinking as bad choice..

so if you don't believe the words in the bible, what exactly are you basing your knowledge of who jesus was and what he was about on?

[lo0m]

ok, i didn't wanted to go into this, as I'm sure that my English is not on the level I could fully reason, but well... I don't believe the Bible, I do believe in Jesus as a human, maybe a prophet.. Bible is not the only scripture that teaches about Jesus, you know.. I once believed in the Bible until I learned how, by whom and finally WHEN it was written... i have read it many times and once you see the contadictions you can find yourself finding truth like astrophysician is finding truth about black holes.. even with negative info (info that can't be fully trusted) you can study Jesus.. it also has slight glimpse of J.R.R.Tolkien's view on christianity as a "real myth"... you can study myth, even if you don't believe it, can't you?

[xsecx]

ok, i didn't wanted to go into this, as I'm sure that my English is not on the level I could fully reason, but well... I don't believe the Bible, I do believe in Jesus as a human, maybe a prophet.. Bible is not the only scripture that teaches about Jesus, you know.. I once believed in the Bible until I learned how, by whom and finally WHEN it was written... i have read it many times and once you see the contadictions you can find yourself finding truth like astrophysician is finding truth about black holes.. even with negative info (info that can't be fully trusted) you can study Jesus.. it also has slight glimpse of J.R.R.Tolkien's view on christianity as a "real myth"... you can study myth, even if you don't believe it, can't you?

if you don't believe the bible then how can you talk about Jesus as a god or even a prophet? All of the writings about jesus came far after the actual events so why would you believe any of it if you don't trust the bible?

[lo0m]

that's easy logic, isn't it?

if i don't believe the Bible then why I can't talk about Jesus as God? there's a possibility.. He CAN be.. I DON'T know..so why I should abandon this possibility...

ok.. there's only one other teaching regarding Jesus that says it's revealed by God of Abraham and was revealed after Jesus' death. And that is Quran. It surely was written roughly 6 centuries after Jesus walked the Earth, but, unlike the Bible, it has remained UNCHANGED to this day. So now, we have two scriptures.

Bible - segmented, written by many men, changed by many men. compiling based on politics and personal beliefs. contains infos that are in direct contradiction with our today's scientifical abundance.

Quran - written by one man through cca 23 yrs (not sure), does not contradict itself, is much more logical, contains info that writer propably could not have known and which does not contradict today's science.

hey, I guess that now it's only matter if you DO or DON'T believe The Source - if you believe in God and if you believe particular scripture was revealed by him or not.. I've left this questions opened...

[SgtD]

that's easy logic, isn't it?

if i don't believe the Bible then why I can't talk about Jesus as God? there's a possibility.. He CAN be.. I DON'T know..so why I should abandon this possibility...

ok.. there's only one other teaching regarding Jesus that says it's revealed by God of Abraham and was revealed after Jesus' death. And that is Quran. It surely was written roughly 6 centuries after Jesus walked the Earth, but, unlike the Bible, it has remained UNCHANGED to this day. So now, we have two scriptures.

Bible - segmented, written by many men, changed by many men. compiling based on politics and personal beliefs. contains infos that are in direct contradiction with our today's scientifical abundance.

Quran - written by one man through cca 23 yrs (not sure), does not contradict itself, is much more logical, contains info that writer propably could not have known and which does not contradict today's science.

hey, I guess that now it's only matter if you DO or DON'T believe The Source - if you believe in God and if you believe particular scripture was revealed by him or not.. I've left this questions opened...


i can't believe this thread is 56 pages now.
Please read the thread from the beginning, after a couple of pages you'll have your answers. Then, it all will repeat itself, with the same questions, same flawed logic, and same points/views proven wrong.

Face it: if you're christian, you can't be sxe. Thank you.

[lo0m]

if YOU would read at least MY posts, you would already know that i am not a christian.. and, that would be a bonus, you would know that the post you've quoted is little offtopic and does not say a word about sxe..

[SgtD]

if YOU would read at least MY posts, you would already know that i am not a christian.. and, that would be a bonus, you would know that the post you've quoted is little offtopic and does not say a word about sxe..

i DID read your post, and i realize what it was about, plus I've never said you were christian. (note: IF)
and yeah, you should just start reading the thread from teh beginning.

[lo0m]

so, you realize that i'm not talking about sxe but Abrahamic religions in general. You also realize that didn't ask any question regarding this post yet you want me to read the post i've spend last week reading? huh

and " if you're christian, you can't be sxe. " cannot be simply said.. at least, because "christian" is fucking broad description.. from ultracatolics that meet with fascism to the most liberal, which sometimes claim edge.. face it, there are more viewpoints and you're not the one to tell someone how to interpret his own religion. there are christians that believe that wine is important part of sermon, yet there are others, that view their body as a temple and drugs of any kind as poison. add the aspects of possibility ( eg.that Jesus may NEVER drank wine) I've been talking before and you have very interesting equation (and we STILL didn't touch the neverending debate about translation of Bible which would add even more possibilities). I'm not trying to be rude, but you have no right to generalize someone's believes nor judge him according to your own perception of reality..

[SgtD]

so, you realize that i'm not talking about sxe but Abrahamic religions in general. You also realize that didn't ask any question regarding this post yet you want me to read the post i've spend last week reading? huh

and " if you're christian, you can't be sxe. " cannot be simply said.. at least, because "christian" is fucking broad description.. from ultracatolics that meet with fascism to the most liberal, which sometimes claim edge.. face it, there are more viewpoints and you're not the one to tell someone how to interpret his own religion. there are christians that believe that wine is important part of sermon, yet there are others, that view their body as a temple and drugs of any kind as poison. add the aspects of possibility ( eg.that Jesus may NEVER drank wine) I've been talking before and you have very interesting equation (and we STILL didn't touch the neverending debate about translation of Bible which would add even more possibilities). I'm not trying to be rude, but you have no right to generalize someone's believes nor judge him according to your own perception of reality..
I adressed you by quoting you, becasue your quote was written in relation to the topic. Give me a break.i'm sick of repeating myself, and the things that have already been said in this very thread. Do your research, and read it all over again (if you have read it in the first place, which i doubt, based on your replies.)

it all comes down to integrity. it can be simply said, that if you are christian you can't be sxe, or even better, if you think you are sxe and claim to be a christian, you are a shitty person, no integrity, whatsoever period. it's just flexing and changing bits and pieces of ideas to match the imaginary connections in your head, withouth wanting to try to be rude either

[lo0m]

I adressed you by quoting you, becasue your quote was written in relation to the topic. Give me a break.i'm sick of repeating myself, and the things that have already been said in this very thread. Do your research, and read it all over again (if you have read it in the first place, which i doubt, based on your replies.)

it all comes down to integrity. it can be simply said, that if you are christian you can't be sxe, or even better, if you think you are sxe and claim to be a christian, you are a shitty person, no integrity, whatsoever period. it's just flexing and changing bits and pieces of ideas to match the imaginary connections in your head, withouth wanting to try to be rude either
sorry, writing from links browser, hope it will turn out ok.
forget sxe.. are there christian abstinents? yes, of course there are. there have always been. stop trying to argue from inside the religious "rules" (even when Jesus himself propably said that his teachings are NOT set of rules) you dont abide as youre not christian (reverse logics). let this to theologians as it takes a hard and long study to undestand all aspects and even then (or maybe its because) a theologian is always careful to start point fingers...
ok, i can see your "what-an-asshole" face right now :-))) j/k.. i had to make this point and now away from this neverending topic.. hope i didnt offended you in any way as it was certainly NOT my intention!

[straightXed]

i'm saying that comparing YOUR(or someone others) actions with someone who:

a) is God
b) was propably very different in person than in the Bible
or
c) maybe was a prophet but everything written about him is corrupted by man

is RIDICULOUS.. btw - i don't think that Jesus was drinking as I see drinking as bad choice..

Thats all well and good but its generally accepted that the idea the bible presesnts of jesus is the idea that christians uphold of jesus. In said bible jesus is said to drink, straightedge alligns with the idea that drinking is not right. Thus alligning yourself with both causes contradiction...you either think jesus's actions were wrong and choose not to live like him because you think he was erronous...thus dispelling the idea of him being god and ignoring the advice in the bible. Or you are disregarding segments of the bible as it doens't fit with your life thus simply cherry picking aspects of the bible that fit and further adding to your point c).

Now you saying you don't think jesus was drinking just pretty much disregards the bible altogether, fine, but then do christians not use the bible? is this not the basis of that religion? Whilst you may feel you have a much better understanding of your relationship with god there is still this overwhelming majority of people that follow christianity and the bible and as such i fail to see how anything you say has reconciled those peoples beliefs with that of straightedge. All you have highlighted is that the religion is so poor in consistancy and is so run down that there are so many different schools of thought that disregard this and that, it just seems likme you are saying christianity at large is greatly flawed. I mean hardcore really isn't here for christians to co opt in order to recruit young minds to warp, so even if you do somehow manage to rationalise the inconsistancy in views it remains that in general christianity simply isn't a welcome force in straightedge and hardcore due to the way it corrupts things to mean something else. Don't get me wrong, i respect peoples beliefs but i just find it very puzzling why christians want to be a part of this, other than the recruiting i mean.

[xsecx]

that's easy logic, isn't it?

if i don't believe the Bible then why I can't talk about Jesus as God? there's a possibility.. He CAN be.. I DON'T know..so why I should abandon this possibility...

ok.. there's only one other teaching regarding Jesus that says it's revealed by God of Abraham and was revealed after Jesus' death. And that is Quran. It surely was written roughly 6 centuries after Jesus walked the Earth, but, unlike the Bible, it has remained UNCHANGED to this day. So now, we have two scriptures.

Bible - segmented, written by many men, changed by many men. compiling based on politics and personal beliefs. contains infos that are in direct contradiction with our today's scientifical abundance.

Quran - written by one man through cca 23 yrs (not sure), does not contradict itself, is much more logical, contains info that writer propably could not have known and which does not contradict today's science.

hey, I guess that now it's only matter if you DO or DON'T believe The Source - if you believe in God and if you believe particular scripture was revealed by him or not.. I've left this questions opened...

If you follow the quran then this is a moot conversation because you don't believe that jesus was divine and therefore aren't christian. The discussion at hand is about christian beliefs and their contradictions, if you're following the teachings of the quran then you're introducing something completely different than what is actually being discussed.

[lo0m]

Thats all well and good but its generally accepted that the idea the bible presesnts of jesus is the idea that christians uphold of jesus. In said bible jesus is said to drink, straightedge alligns with the idea that drinking is not right. Thus alligning yourself with both causes contradiction...you either think jesus's actions were wrong and choose not to live like him because you think he was erronous...thus dispelling the idea of him being god and ignoring the advice in the bible. Or you are disregarding segments of the bible as it doens't fit with your life thus simply cherry picking aspects of the bible that fit and further adding to your point c).

Now you saying you don't think jesus was drinking just pretty much disregards the bible altogether, fine, but then do christians not use the bible? is this not the basis of that religion? Whilst you may feel you have a much better understanding of your relationship with god there is still this overwhelming majority of people that follow christianity and the bible and as such i fail to see how anything you say has reconciled those peoples beliefs with that of straightedge. All you have highlighted is that the religion is so poor in consistancy and is so run down that there are so many different schools of thought that disregard this and that, it just seems likme you are saying christianity at large is greatly flawed. I mean hardcore really isn't here for christians to co opt in order to recruit young minds to warp, so even if you do somehow manage to rationalise the inconsistancy in views it remains that in general christianity simply isn't a welcome force in straightedge and hardcore due to the way it corrupts things to mean something else. Don't get me wrong, i respect peoples beliefs but i just find it very puzzling why christians want to be a part of this, other than the recruiting i mean.

wow, well said.. now i can see the problem.. youre talking about religion as a set of dogmas and rules.. thats fine as its true and we can see it every day.. i was talking about some hypothetical, yet very real inner true spirit of christianity.. that represents through charity, forgiveness and similar stuff (lets be honest - which too much christians lack).. grr, i wish my english was better...
anyway, yes, in that case you guys are right, as its a lot simplified reality. pure rules comparing. i guess many christians would tell you that this rule is not that important, but i can be wrong... peace..

[straightXed]

wow, well said.. now i can see the problem.. youre talking about religion as a set of dogmas and rules.. thats fine as its true and we can see it every day.. i was talking about some hypothetical, yet very real inner true spirit of christianity.. that represents through charity, forgiveness and similar stuff (lets be honest - which too much christians lack).. grr, i wish my english was better...
anyway, yes, in that case you guys are right, as its a lot simplified reality. pure rules comparing. i guess many christians would tell you that this rule is not that important, but i can be wrong... peace..

those elements though, charity, forgiveness and similar things, are not exclusive to christianity. You of course are welcome to see it as the true spirit of christianity but anyone can be charitable or forgiving without having any relation to christianity. I think this thread is more about the things that are exclusive and defining of what the world knows as christianity which of course general means looking and the bible as a source.

peace to you too.

[Emily852]

niv

I got the NKJV bible and Matthew 12:31-32 says
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men."
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

Annnnd I'm not going against the spirit of God by being straight edge.

So you can be straight edge and christian.

[xsecx]

I got the NKJV bible and Matthew 12:31-32 says
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men."
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

Annnnd I'm not going against the spirit of God by being straight edge.

So you can be straight edge and christian.

So thinking that god is wrong isn't blasphemy? How exactly?

[Emily852]

So thinking that god is wrong isn't blasphemy? How exactly?

nevermind you're just going to say that bible is wrong too am I right?

[Emily852]

So thinking that god is wrong isn't blasphemy? How exactly?

nevermind the quote is the exact same in your bible....
If you believe in "the holy trinity", they're 3 separate things unified together to 1.

[xsecx]

nevermind the quote is the exact same in your bible....
If you believe in "the holy trinity", they're 3 separate things unified together to 1.

they're 3 parts of one thing. So if you think that jesus was wrong, you're blaspheming the holy spirit. Even if you try and separate them then don't you think it's kind of convenient that you don't think jesus was wrong is blasphemy because a piece of scripture only makes reference to the holy spirit?

[Emily852]

they're 3 parts of one thing.

Then why does it say if blasphemy against Jesus it's forgivable but if blasphemy against the holy spirit it's not? They're clearly 2 different things.

If you still don't understand, hopefully this will help you:
Like if your last name was "Borelli" and if in that family there's you, somebody else, and another person, you guys are still the "Borelli" family (like the 3 things making up what is called the holy trinity) but there's still you, someone else and someone else separate from eachother but you all are still unified as "Borelli".



So if you think that jesus was wrong, you're blaspheming the holy spirit. Even if you try and separate them then don't you think it's kind of convenient that you don't think jesus was wrong is blasphemy because a piece of scripture only makes reference to the holy spirit?

yeah I think it's conveinent, because it means we're not all doomed to go to hell.
A piece of scripture? What other proof do you want? For God to show up on your doorstep and say it verbally?

[xsecx]

Then why does it say if blasphemy against Jesus it's forgivable but if blasphemy against the holy spirit it's not? They're clearly 2 different things.


You're trying to say that because it doesn't mention jesus by name that it clearly wouldn't be the same as the spirit? if that's the case, then please explain to me what would be blasphemy of the holy spirit and what would be blasphemy of jesus? Why would you be able to blaspheme two parts of the trinity and be forgiven and yet one you couldn't? How does that make any kind of sense?



If you still don't understand, hopefully this will help you:
Like if your last name was "Borelli" and if in that family there's you, somebody else, and another person, you guys are still the "Borelli" family (like the 3 things making up what is called the holy trinity) but there's still you, someone else and someone else separate from eachother but you all are still unified as "Borelli".

Yeah, but that's not a good analogy at all. They're still all parts of the same thing. They're still all the godhead. jesus is god in human form. The holy ghost is the non physical manifestation of god's will. It's still essentially all god and they aren't really separable at all.




yeah I think it's conveinent, because it means we're not all doomed to go to hell.
A piece of scripture? What other proof do you want? For God to show up on your doorstep and say it verbally?
If you're a good christian then why would you blaspheme either god or jesus? If you actually believed that the words and actions of your god were right, why would you ever disagree or judge them?

[Emily852]

You're trying to say that because it doesn't mention jesus by name that it clearly wouldn't be the same as the spirit?
It doesn't say Jesus by name because Jesus himself was saying that out loud.



if that's the case, then please explain to me what would be blasphemy of the holy spirit and what would be blasphemy of jesus?
Why would you be able to blaspheme two parts of the trinity and be forgiven and yet one you couldn't? How does that make any kind of sense?
Yeah, but that's not a good analogy at all. They're still all parts of the same thing. They're still all the godhead. jesus is god in human form. The holy ghost is the non physical manifestation of god's will. It's still essentially all god and they aren't really separable at all.


They're still 3 distinct things.
For the holy trinity, it's the father, the son, and the holy spirit, the father is the one who has the fury, the one who judges, the one who ultimately makes the decisions in the end. That's why I was using that family analogy. Then there's the holy spirit. You can compare it to a "motherly" thing. It's about the joy, love, mercy, compassion, etc. Then there's the son, known as Jesus, the guy who we're all supposed to be able to relate to on a human level.
So if you go against the holy spirit, you're basically choosing to be "bad". That's why Jesus said you will be known by your fruits. You've either got good in you or you got bad in you. And on judgment day you'll either be justified or condemned. If you have a good excuse or not basically, if you knew what was right in your heart or not.


Matthew 12:33 says "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad"

and then in Matthew 12:36 it says that God will ultimately be the one to judge, and you will either be justified or condemned. Emphasis on the word "justified". It means life isn't black and white. The gray areas are the parts that you can either be justified on, or condemned. That's why I said before as long as you know what's in your heart & where you stand you should be fine.



If you're a good christian then why would you blaspheme either god or jesus? If you actually believed that the words and actions of your god were right, why would you ever disagree or judge them?

I never said I was perfect & I'm not judging God I'm just trying to do what he says, and it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that I have to drink wine, or that if you don't drink it, it's bad.

[xsecx]

It doesn't say Jesus by name because Jesus himself was saying that out loud.

that doesn't affect the question that you still haven't answered.




They're still 3 distinct things.
For the holy trinity, it's the father, the son, and the holy spirit, the father is the one who has the fury, the one who judges, the one who ultimately makes the decisions in the end. That's why I was using that family analogy. Then there's the holy spirit. You can compare it to a "motherly" thing. It's about the joy, love, mercy, compassion, etc. Then there's the son, known as Jesus, the guy who we're all supposed to be able to relate to on a human level.
So if you go against the holy spirit, you're basically choosing to be "bad". That's why Jesus said you will be known by your fruits. You've either got good in you or you got bad in you. And on judgment day you'll either be justified or condemned. If you have a good excuse or not basically, if you knew what was right in your heart or not.


Matthew 12:33 says "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad"

and then in Matthew 12:36 it says that God will ultimately be the one to judge, and you will either be justified or condemned. Emphasis on the word "justified". It means life isn't black and white. The gray areas are the parts that you can either be justified on, or condemned. That's why I said before as long as you know what's in your heart & where you stand you should be fine.


That's all great but doesn't really address my question to you. You're saying that these things are seperate but you've completely ignored why you think it's forgivable to blaspheme god and jesus but not ok to blaspheme the holy ghost? I also don't think you really understand that concept of the trinity. They cannot be separate and distinct and have it still be a monotheistic religion. What you're describing is a polytheistic system which breaks the whole no other god before me part. The entire point of jesus was that he was the human manifestation of god and infused with the holy spirit. You cannot have one piece of the trinity without the other two, which is why I asked and continue to ask why you think you can blaspheme two but not the third?



I never said I was perfect & I'm not judging God I'm just trying to do what he says, and it doesn't say anywhere in the bible that I have to drink wine, or that if you don't drink it, it's bad.

So drinking of alcohol is ok and something that should be done? Would you give alcohol to people that were already drunk at a wedding? Would you serve alcohol to your friends and family at a dinner?

[lo0m]

t They cannot be separate and distinct and have it still be a monotheistic religion. What you're describing is a polytheistic system which breaks the whole no other god before me part.

and that's the point.. christianity is not a monotheistic religion despite all the claims.. but unitarian christianity or some other denominations maybe are ...

[xsecx]

and that's the point.. christianity is not a monotheistic religion despite all the claims.. but unitarian christianity or some other denominations maybe are ...

the vast majority of christians and christian doctrine would disagree with you.

[Emily852]

that doesn't affect the question that you still haven't answered.
That's all great but doesn't really address my question to you. You're saying that these things are seperate but you've completely ignored why you think it's forgivable to blaspheme god and jesus but not ok to blaspheme the holy ghost?

basically you're asking why I think it's okay for it to be forgiveable to blasphemy jesus and not the holy spirit? Because it says so??



I also don't think you really understand that concept of the trinity. They cannot be separate and distinct and have it still be a monotheistic religion.

if the holy spirit is all about compassion & mercy & everything, how can God have anger, etc? Those two things cannot exist as the same THING, but they can co-exist next to eachother FOR the same thing.


What you're describing is a polytheistic system which breaks the whole no other god before me part.

no, you interpreted it like that



The entire point of jesus was that he was the human manifestation of god and infused with the holy spirit. You cannot have one piece of the trinity without the other two, which is why I asked and continue to ask why you think you can blaspheme two but not the third?

The holy spirit was in Jesus & it's in other people too. Jesus said you will be judged based on your good fruits or bad fruits. The holy spirit is basically what makes someone good (compassion, mercy, love etc.), & it's what made Jesus like he was. If you throw away the holy spirit from your life, it's kind of more intentional than throwing away Jesus out of your life, because normally when that happens it's out of confusion or whatever. And Jesus is merciful & forgiving (which comes from the holy spirit). & if you think about it, you could call any sin a blasphemy. But when you throw away the holy spirit, all of what the holy spirit is about, not just parts of it but the whole holy spirit as one in itself, you're basically "bad" and in the end that's where you get cast into hell. It also says in the bible that for some people there is no hope for them. I think it's pretty much realized that if there's no good in you, then that's pretty much just the kind of person you are.


So drinking of alcohol is ok and something that should be done?
no


Would you give alcohol to people that were already drunk at a wedding?
no


Would you serve alcohol to your friends and family at a dinner?
no

[xsecx]

basically you're asking why I think it's okay for it to be forgiveable to blasphemy jesus and not the holy spirit? Because it says so??

So you just read what things say and don't think about them? If jesus was god, why would he encourage the blasphemy of himself or god?




if the holy spirit is all about compassion & mercy & everything, how can God have anger, etc? Those two things cannot exist as the same THING, but they can co-exist next to eachother FOR the same thing.


You're talking about something that doesn't make sense. You're trying to say that is somehow 3 separate things but are also one thing. You're attributing characteristics to one to separate it from the others, however there's no reason for it. The holy spirit is a christian creation that didn't exist in the old testament, any mention of it then was in relation to god, not as some separate thing.



no, you interpreted it like that

well no, you keep saying they're separate things. If they're not the same thing, then you're worshiping multiple gods.




The holy spirit was in Jesus & it's in other people too. Jesus said you will be judged based on your good fruits or bad fruits. The holy spirit is basically what makes someone good (compassion, mercy, love etc.), & it's what made Jesus like he was. If you throw away the holy spirit from your life, it's kind of more intentional than throwing away Jesus out of your life, because normally when that happens it's out of confusion or whatever. And Jesus is merciful & forgiving (which comes from the holy spirit). & if you think about it, you could call any sin a blasphemy. But when you throw away the holy spirit, all of what the holy spirit is about, not just parts of it but the whole holy spirit as one in itself, you're basically "bad" and in the end that's where you get cast into hell. It also says in the bible that for some people there is no hope for them. I think it's pretty much realized that if there's no good in you, then that's pretty much just the kind of person you are.


So then how exactly is thinking one of jesus's miracles is wrong, not blasphemy of the holy spirit? How does this address why you think it's ok to blaspheme god and jesus? You just linked the actions of jesus with the holy spirit? And no, every sin isn't blasphemy. If you believe that god is wrong, that's blasphemy, not simply because you did something it said you shouldn't. Sin and blasphemy are totally different things.



no


no


no

so you judge the actions of jesus as wrong and something you wouldn't do.

[Emily852]

So you just read what things say and don't think about them? If jesus was god, why would he encourage the blasphemy of himself or god?
who's saying he's encouraging blasphemy? he's saying it's forgiveable.



You're talking about something that doesn't make sense. You're trying to say that is somehow 3 separate things but are also one thing. You're attributing characteristics to one to separate it from the others, however there's no reason for it.

maybe a picture will help you.

http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/most-holy-trinity.jpg



The holy spirit is a christian creation that didn't exist in the old testament, any mention of it then was in relation to god, not as some separate thing.

If you only follow the old testement you're Jewish. The reason why Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the true messiah is because he didn't fufill every single one of their prophecies. If you believe in the new testement and what Jesus was saying, you're christian. There's a difference between Christian and Jewish.


well no, you keep saying they're separate things. If they're not the same thing, then you're worshiping multiple gods. So then how exactly is thinking one of jesus's miracles is wrong, not blasphemy of the holy spirit? How does this address why you think it's ok to blaspheme god and jesus?

If you put everything I said together in the last post, maybe it would have made some sense.

you're relating the holy spirit to jesus since it's all part of the trinity. But when you're allowed to be forgiven for one and not the other, CLEARLY it tells us that they are NOT the same. They are INCLUDED in the same thing, which is what you're supposed to worship: God.
Why would you say when you make the sign of the cross "in the name of the father, the son, the holy spirit" then why even recognize them as 3 names? They each MAKE UP the holy trinity, and the holy trinity itself symbolizes 1 thing, as God. It didn't say if you blasphemy the holy trinity. It said if you blasphemy the holy spirit but not jesus (who is recognized as the son).


You just linked the actions of jesus with the holy spirit? And no, every sin isn't blasphemy. If you believe that god is wrong, that's blasphemy, not simply because you did something it said you shouldn't. Sin and blasphemy are totally different things.
so you judge the actions of jesus as wrong and something you wouldn't do.

if that's how you want to say it, then I guess it's forgiveable anyways.

[xsecx]

who's saying he's encouraging blasphemy? he's saying it's forgiveable.

Actually he isn't, but that appears to be lost on you.



maybe a picture will help you.

http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/most-holy-trinity.jpg

That picture appears to make clear what I've been saying. They're all god.



If you only follow the old testement you're Jewish. The reason why Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the true messiah is because he didn't fufill every single one of their prophecies. If you believe in the new testement and what Jesus was saying, you're christian. There's a difference between Christian and Jewish.

What does that have to do with the fact that christians invented the holy spirit?




If you put everything I said together in the last post, maybe it would have made some sense.

you're relating the holy spirit to jesus since it's all part of the trinity. But when you're allowed to be forgiven for one and not the other, CLEARLY it tells us that they are NOT the same. They are INCLUDED in the same thing, which is what you're supposed to worship: God.
Why would you say when you make the sign of the cross "in the name of the father, the son, the holy spirit" then why even recognize them as 3 names? They each MAKE UP the holy trinity, and the holy trinity itself symbolizes 1 thing, as God. It didn't say if you blasphemy the holy trinity. It said if you blasphemy the holy spirit but not jesus (who is recognized as the son).

You're playing word games to try and justify your statements. Can you honestly say that outside of this conversation that you'd believe that blasphemy of god and jesus is forgivable but blasphemy of the holy spirit is not? There's a round peg and no matter how hard you swing that hammer, it's not going to fit. You're saying in the same breath that they're not the same thing and then immediately saying they are. So then how exactly do you think it's forgivable to believe that god is wrong?




if that's how you want to say it, then I guess it's forgiveable anyways.

How would it be forgivable since it's blasphemy of the holy spirit?

[lo0m]

the vast majority of christians and christian doctrine would disagree with you.

may be...but we have pure logic, common sense.. btw you would be propably suprised how many "mature christians" have the same problem with christianity beeing a monotheistic religion as me...

[lo0m]

If you only follow the old testement you're Jewish. The reason why Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the true messiah is because he didn't fufill every single one of their prophecies. If you believe in the new testement and what Jesus was saying, you're christian. There's a difference between Christian and Jewish.


actually, it don't have to be true.. there are many Jewish people that believe that Jesus was Messiah and still follow the doctrines of Old Testament... and they don't call themselves christians...

[xsecx]

may be...but we have pure logic, common sense.. btw you would be propably suprised how many "mature christians" have the same problem with christianity beeing a monotheistic religion as me...

are you sure you want to use the words logic and common sense when talking about religion?

[xsecx]

actually, it don't have to be true.. there are many Jewish people that believe that Jesus was Messiah and still follow the doctrines of Old Testament... and they don't call themselves christians...

people can call themselves whatever they want, it doesn't necessarily make it an accurate statement.

[Emily852]

actually, it don't have to be true.. there are many Jewish people that believe that Jesus was Messiah and still follow the doctrines of Old Testament... and they don't call themselves christians...

well there's still a difference between that and christianity

[Emily852]

(xsecx) you said in the other post that religion relies on faith

if religion is a matter of faith, why can't you have faith that it's justified?

[xsecx]

(xsecx) you said in the other post that religion relies on faith

if religion is a matter of faith, why can't you have faith that it's justified?

Because I don't put in stock in faith and believe that religion is a disease. I find it hilarious that people will try so hard to change and manipulate their religion to fit their world view rather than coming to terms with that fact that it's an outdated concept that should be abandoned. The bible hasn't changed, mankind has. What was considered taboo and horrible 2000 years ago is now common place, and what was considered normal 2000 years ago, now people think may not be the greatest idea. So rather than coming to terms with the fact that the religion is flawed, followers will continually try and change what the religion "believes" to fit modern times. It just doesn't make sense.

[easy]

Because I don't put in stock in faith and believe that religion is a disease. I find it hilarious that people will try so hard to change and manipulate their religion to fit their world view rather than coming to terms with that fact that it's an outdated concept that should be abandoned. The bible hasn't changed, mankind has. What was considered taboo and horrible 2000 years ago is now common place, and what was considered normal 2000 years ago, now people think may not be the greatest idea. So rather than coming to terms with the fact that the religion is flawed, followers will continually try and change what the religion "believes" to fit modern times. It just doesn't make sense.

yes!!!!! now the thread can finally end! everyone shhh!