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collin
03-08-2006, 11:13 AM
Its manipulation as you are coerced to believe it with fabricated stories. Without coercion why would you believe it something that can't physically exist?
because i feel something inside of me, that tells me its God, and i trust it because it feels 100% more real than anything else I've ever known, more real than even physical things.

collin
03-08-2006, 11:14 AM
You misunderstand how christianity is manipulative then, maybe you are blinded by faith. Do you believe that if you do wrong god will punish you?
i believe that if i repent, my sins will be forgiven.

straightXed
03-08-2006, 11:19 AM
because i feel something inside of me, that tells me its God, and i trust it because it feels 100% more real than anything else I've ever known, more real than even physical things.

No, people have told you that that feeling is god, and with indoctrination you have come to believe that its completely real, when in fact its just a suggestive feeling that you were open too but you could get the same feeling from a hypno annalyst. Speaking of hypno annalysts theirs a christian practice that has been set up to "cure" of being gay, how ridiculous are christians.

straightXed
03-08-2006, 11:20 AM
i believe that if i repent, my sins will be forgiven.

By who? God, you don't see how that basic idea of god is manipulating your actions and how you live your life?

collin
03-08-2006, 11:21 AM
No, people have told you that that feeling is god, and with indoctrination you have come to believe that its completely real, when in fact its just a suggestive feeling that you were open too but you could get the same feeling from a hypno annalyst. Speaking of hypno annalysts theirs a christian practice that has been set up to "cure" of being gay, how ridiculous are christians.
actually, i choose to believe that it's god. i do agree that the "curing homosexuality" thing is absolutely ridiculous.

collin
03-08-2006, 11:23 AM
By who? God, you don't see how that basic idea of god is manipulating your actions and how you live your life?
yes, by god. ok, let's say you're right and i'm living my life under the "manipulation" of religion. What have i lost or missed out on?

straightXed
03-08-2006, 11:26 AM
actually, i choose to believe that it's god. i do agree that the "curing homosexuality" thing is absolutely ridiculous.

You choose because they keep giving you false answers until you shut off from anything that would contradict the idea of god. And now you accept it because you have associated a certain feeling with the idea of god and aren't willing to accept it could be anything else. Its a manipulative process.

collin
03-08-2006, 11:27 AM
You choose because they keep giving you false answers until you shut off from anything that would contradict the idea of god. And now you accept it because you have associated a certain feeling with the idea of god and aren't willing to accept it could be anything else. Its a manipulative process.
no, i've heard all of the arguments against god, but i still choose to believe.

straightXed
03-08-2006, 11:31 AM
yes, by god. ok, let's say you're right and i'm living my life under the "manipulation" of religion. What have i lost or missed out on?

You miss out being free from manipulative ideas and doctrines and you give yourself to the idea of god rather than being open to ideas that differ from this.

straightXed
03-08-2006, 11:32 AM
no, i've heard all of the arguments against god, but i still choose to believe.

You see, a classic response. Someone could paint a flawless picture as to why god doesn't exist but due to manipulation you refuse to accept them.

kelly
03-08-2006, 11:35 AM
yes, by god. ok, let's say you're right and i'm living my life under the "manipulation" of religion. What have i lost or missed out on?
Free will.

collin
03-08-2006, 12:15 PM
You see, a classic response. Someone could paint a flawless picture as to why god doesn't exist but due to manipulation you refuse to accept them.
not due to manipulation, my choice is one of freewill.

straightXed
03-08-2006, 03:35 PM
not due to manipulation, my choice is one of freewill.

And you will continue to tell yourself that because you aren't prepared to substitute myth and fallacy for reason, logic and common sense. When you do find certain a certain discrepancy between what you think and what your religion says you meld your religions words to sound more like what you want them to sound like and thats why you disagree with the bible of issues like homosexuality. And thats why even within christianity no one agrees, you are all crazy.

xCAMIx
03-08-2006, 07:06 PM
Holy Crap! Still On This?!

xsecx
03-08-2006, 07:19 PM
Holy Crap! Still On This?!

why has christianity changed?

Scooter
03-08-2006, 11:14 PM
theres 5 kids i knwo that are straight edge and they all go to my church. also if u cant be straight edge and christian then why are there christian straightedge bands? uc an be christian and straight edge. if u say u cant becasue jesus drank that amkes u hate edge. so yeah u can be both.

SgtD
03-09-2006, 02:21 AM
theres 5 kids i knwo that are straight edge and they all go to my church. also if u cant be straight edge and christian then why are there christian straightedge bands? uc an be christian and straight edge. if u say u cant becasue jesus drank that amkes u hate edge. so yeah u can be both.
i don't know where you get this bullshit, hate edge means hardline.
you can think that you are sxe and christian at the same time, if you wish. but just think it through, how the two beliefs contradict themselves.

as for christian edge bands, i always thought that even christian hardcore bands were hypocrits because of the christian beliefs are lame, and in my eyes hardcore and punk has been against it since day 1

xsecx
03-09-2006, 08:33 AM
i don't know where you get this bullshit, hate edge means hardline.
you can think that you are sxe and christian at the same time, if you wish. but just think it through, how the two beliefs contradict themselves.

as for christian edge bands, i always thought that even christian hardcore bands were hypocrits because of the christian beliefs are lame, and in my eyes hardcore and punk has been against it since day 1

hate edge and hardline mean totally different things.

xsecx
03-09-2006, 08:41 AM
theres 5 kids i knwo that are straight edge and they all go to my church. also if u cant be straight edge and christian then why are there christian straightedge bands? uc an be christian and straight edge. if u say u cant becasue jesus drank that amkes u hate edge. so yeah u can be both.

see, here's my problem with this response. people have been reasons as to why the 2 contradict each other, complete with biblical and historical references. the standard christian response so far has been, "uh yeah you can" but then doesn't actually explain why there isn't a conflict.

XxXbassist
03-09-2006, 09:03 AM
And you will continue to tell yourself that because you aren't prepared to substitute myth and fallacy for reason, logic and common sense. When you do find certain a certain discrepancy between what you think and what your religion says you meld your religions words to sound more like what you want them to sound like and thats why you disagree with the bible of issues like homosexuality. And thats why even within christianity no one agrees, you are all crazy.

This response is all thanks to people endlessly sugar coating their religion untill it satisfies them even going so far as to even give it up

SgtD
03-09-2006, 09:20 AM
hate edge and hardline mean totally different things.
sorry i fucked it up. hate edge is militant sxe, but still, it has nothing to do anything with jesus drank wine.

collin
03-09-2006, 12:25 PM
sorry i fucked it up. hate edge is militant sxe, but still, it has nothing to do anything with jesus drank wine.
right.....

SgtD
03-09-2006, 12:31 PM
right.....
yes

straightXed
03-09-2006, 01:31 PM
theres 5 kids i knwo that are straight edge and they all go to my church. also if u cant be straight edge and christian then why are there christian straightedge bands? uc an be christian and straight edge. if u say u cant becasue jesus drank that amkes u hate edge. so yeah u can be both.

Saying you are a martian doesn't make it so. And how does pointing out a contradiction equate to hate edge? And why can't you type "you" instead of "u"?

Scooter
03-09-2006, 04:39 PM
if ur straight edge ur not mad at everyone else for not being straight edge and u dont yell at people for drinking and smoking and doin drugs and havign casual sex u just dont do that urself. hate edge is the opposite where ur straight edge and hate people who arent and drink and stuff that is like hating jesus because he drank which means that u are hate edge. oh yeah and i put u instead of you because i feel like it and its shorter.

xsecx
03-09-2006, 04:42 PM
if ur straight edge ur not mad at everyone else for not being straight edge and u dont yell at people for drinking and smoking and doin drugs and havign casual sex u just dont do that urself. hate edge is the opposite where ur straight edge and hate people who arent and drink and stuff that is like hating jesus because he drank which means that u are hate edge. oh yeah and i put u instead of you because i feel like it and its shorter.

what are you basing this opinion on "if ur straight edge ur not mad at everyone else for not being straight edge and u dont yell at people for drinking and smoking and doin drugs and havign casual sex u just dont do that urself. hate edge is the opposite where ur straight edge and hate people who arent and drink and stuff that is like hating jesus because he drank which means that u are hate edge."

xvunderx
03-09-2006, 04:58 PM
if ur straight edge ur not mad at everyone else for not being straight edge and u dont yell at people for drinking and smoking and doin drugs and havign casual sex u just dont do that urself. hate edge is the opposite where ur straight edge and hate people who arent and drink and stuff that is like hating jesus because he drank which means that u are hate edge. oh yeah and i put u instead of you because i feel like it and its shorter.

Being sXe isn't saying you hate people for drinking etc (excluding the sex thing, since that's noting to do with edge really) but it does mean that you are taking a stong stance, and are saying you beleive drinking to be wrong. Hence the problem with Christianity and edge.

(I have to say though putting U instead of You is kind of anoying for any one trying to read it)

XThe EdgeX
03-09-2006, 04:59 PM
OK about this whole christian thing....About the wine, it was all they could drink because the water had so much bacteria in it and they had no way to purify it. The only way to do that was to ferment it which also killed the bacteria. Just thought id add that....

_john_

p.s. just playing devils advocate

xsecx
03-09-2006, 08:04 PM
OK about this whole christian thing....About the wine, it was all they could drink because the water had so much bacteria in it and they had no way to purify it. The only way to do that was to ferment it which also killed the bacteria. Just thought id add that....

_john_

p.s. just playing devils advocate

this isn't true and is already covered in the thread.

stepinsideissue
03-10-2006, 12:57 AM
why has christianity changed?


Boy wouldn't that be a nice change of pace.

straightXed
03-10-2006, 12:38 PM
if ur straight edge ur not mad at everyone else for not being straight edge and u dont yell at people for drinking and smoking and doin drugs and havign casual sex u just dont do that urself. hate edge is the opposite where ur straight edge and hate people who arent and drink and stuff that is like hating jesus because he drank which means that u are hate edge. oh yeah and i put u instead of you because i feel like it and its shorter.


Who hates jesus because he drank?

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 05:47 PM
You guys are taking this Jesus drank whine to literal. As a Christian you try to be like him as best you can. But if you choose not to drink he isnít going to not let you into heaven. No where in the bible does it say you have to drink alcohol, nor is it required in church. So yes you can be edge and Christian. If we start going youíre a Christian you cant be edge, you dress different you cant be edge. If you only say kids that fit the scene can be edge you push people away from us. We are a movement to stop kids from destroying their bodyís and their lives. Think of us as an army. If you divide the army up and make the army weak brittle and useless, nothing will be achieved. I mean this movement is trying to stop kids from using drugs and alcohol and destroying they lives, right? If we start deciding that edge kids have to fit a special model, We might as well join the punk who never did achieve anything. We want the movement to be successful. We want to open peopleís eyes to how much better it is to be edge and not to waste their lives

straightXed
03-13-2006, 06:36 PM
You guys are taking this Jesus drank whine to literal. As a Christian you try to be like him as best you can. But if you choose not to drink he isn’t going to not let you into heaven. No where in the bible does it say you have to drink alcohol, nor is it required in church. So yes you can be edge and Christian. If we start going you’re a Christian you cant be edge, you dress different you cant be edge. If you only say kids that fit the scene can be edge you push people away from us. We are a movement to stop kids from destroying their body’s and their lives. Think of us as an army. If you divide the army up and make the army weak brittle and useless, nothing will be achieved. I mean this movement is trying to stop kids from using drugs and alcohol and destroying they lives, right? If we start deciding that edge kids have to fit a special model, We might as well join the punk who never did achieve anything. We want the movement to be successful. We want to open people’s eyes to how much better it is to be edge and not to waste their lives

So are you meant to live as jesus did or not?

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 06:57 PM
no one can prefectly. but drinking alchol has nothing to do with being like him. they mean in his action in how he treated people. the way he helped people. so if you dont drink that doesnt mean your not fellowing his way.

xsecx
03-13-2006, 06:58 PM
You guys are taking this Jesus drank whine to literal. As a Christian you try to be like him as best you can. But if you choose not to drink he isnít going to not let you into heaven. No where in the bible does it say you have to drink alcohol, nor is it required in church. So yes you can be edge and Christian. If we start going youíre a Christian you cant be edge, you dress different you cant be edge. If you only say kids that fit the scene can be edge you push people away from us. We are a movement to stop kids from destroying their bodyís and their lives. Think of us as an army. If you divide the army up and make the army weak brittle and useless, nothing will be achieved. I mean this movement is trying to stop kids from using drugs and alcohol and destroying they lives, right? If we start deciding that edge kids have to fit a special model, We might as well join the punk who never did achieve anything. We want the movement to be successful. We want to open peopleís eyes to how much better it is to be edge and not to waste their lives

oh cool you're smarter and know better than jesus.

I really wish people would read and address the actual issue instead of the subject of the thread.

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 07:07 PM
no i have just read the bible and know what i have learned what is the issue if not can you be a christian and edge then?

xsecx
03-13-2006, 07:17 PM
no i have just read the bible and know what i have learned what is the issue if not can you be a christian and edge then?

go back and read the thread. it's been discussed several times.

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 07:23 PM
Ok, so already I've been hearing some controversy...So what do you guys think? Can you be sXe and Christian?
this is the tread. i think i answered the question "YES"

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 07:25 PM
pretty much your closed minded if you have to only say whine is what makes christians not be edge

xsecx
03-13-2006, 07:26 PM
pretty much your closed minded if you have to only say whine is what makes christians not be edge

no. beleiving that god was wrong makes you can't be christian.

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 07:32 PM
yea that does but god wasnt wrong. you are for thinking being a christian makes you not edge.

xsecx
03-13-2006, 07:39 PM
yea that does but god wasnt wrong. you are for thinking being a christian makes you not edge.

by you saying that drinking alcohol is wrong you are actually saying that you are right and god was wrong. if you're straight edge you're saying you believe drinking alcohol is wrong. it's really simple people.

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 07:42 PM
no he drank whine it doesnt say it was alchol it could have been jouice we dont know. because he drank doesnt mean i have to. plus buddy it never said he drank the stuff. it only says he made it.

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 07:44 PM
i said he drank it sorry i didnt mean that

xsecx
03-13-2006, 07:45 PM
no he drank whine it doesnt say it was alchol it could have been jouice we dont know. because he drank doesnt mean i have to. plus buddy it never said he drank the stuff. it only says he made it.

he was jewish and celebrated passover. the wine at the last supper was passover wine and was as custom dictated alcoholic. Jesus created wine for his first miracle. You're still back to the same point of thinking that jesus was wrong about something. Unless you think drinking alcohol is fine and that you should supply people with alcohol. I shouldn't know more about what the bible says about this shit than people who claim to be christian.

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 07:54 PM
your so damn wrong. you make it sound like a colt. he doesnt make you have to drink! just because he did doesnt make us. just because we dont doesnt mean we think hes wrong

xsecx
03-13-2006, 07:58 PM
your so damn wrong. you make it sound like a colt. he doesnt make you have to drink! just because he did doesnt make us. just because we dont doesnt mean we think hes wrong

by saying you're straight edge you are actually saying that you believe drinking alcohol is wrong. as well as jesus. I'm so damn wrong, but you can't tell me why or what I'm wrong about. First you say jesus did drink, then he didn't, then he just gave people alcohol. It's not a matter of him making you, which he does with the last supper, but whatever. It has to do with your own beliefs not making sense. because. well. they don't. Unless you want to start explaining how you can be straight edge and think drinking alcohol is a great idea that everyone should do.

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 08:04 PM
look we arent jews we dont have to drink for anything. he die on the cross so we dont have to do that stuff. so that makes my belifes wrong? because he drank he gave jews alchol. iam wrong he died for my sins and so i dont have to do those rituals. dont you get it he did all that stuff so i could be edge he did it so i didnt have to drink.

xsecx
03-13-2006, 08:12 PM
look we arent jews we dont have to drink for anything. he die on the cross so we dont have to do that stuff. so that makes my belifes wrong? because he drank he gave jews alchol. iam wrong he died for my sins and so i dont have to do those rituals. dont you get it he did all that stuff so i could be edge he did it so i didnt have to drink.

you honestly don't even understand the basic principles, history or customs of christianity. he did all that "stuff" because it was his divine path. not so someone 2000 years later could say that he was wrong and that some kid knows better than his "god"

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 08:19 PM
so your saying right now edge is flat out wrong so are you. i obviously know more about god then you do because being edge is ok with him. its not about the drinking that makes him who he is.

xsecx
03-13-2006, 08:24 PM
so your saying right now edge is flat out wrong so are you. i obviously know more about god then you do because being edge is ok with him. its not about the drinking that makes him who he is.

well no. I think that christianity is wrong and edge is right. You obviously know less because you can't even explain why you think what you do. How can you and god disagree on anything?

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 08:37 PM
see your one of those people that make people think were some fucked up gang or something. your a damn hard head that just cant leave things. least just say we are all in the same movement right? but because you want to think so deep into something so hard that it makes the whole movement a waste of time. that is what your doing bro. your think this out to deep. yea jesus drank i dont iam edge iam a christian. it doesnt matter what you are where your fromas long as you push the movement. see we are fighting the same thing. if we fight each other about religon and god we are killing each other. you see what iam saying? you think gods wrong thats fine iam not going to push to join us. i am going to support the cause we both stand for and where my X on my hand proud. i wont chnage my mind because some one like you think i cant be edge. edge is what iam and if in the end this really isnt what God wanted of me i guess we will find out then.

xsecx
03-13-2006, 08:45 PM
see your one of those people that make people think were some fucked up gang or something. your a damn hard head that just cant leave things. least just say we are all in the same movement right? but because you want to think so deep into something so hard that it makes the whole movement a waste of time. that is what your doing bro. your think this out to deep. yea jesus drank i dont iam edge iam a christian. it doesnt matter what you are where your fromas long as you push the movement. see we are fighting the same thing. if we fight each other about religon and god we are killing each other. you see what iam saying? you think gods wrong thats fine iam not going to push to join us. i am going to support the cause we both stand for and where my X on my hand proud. i wont chnage my mind because some one like you think i cant be edge. edge is what iam and if in the end this really isnt what God wanted of me i guess we will find out then.

no you're one of those people who has beliefs, but don't understand them, haven't thought about the, and honestly can't talk about them intelligently. The fact that you don't find a problem with disagreeing with god demonstrates that. You beliefs that contradict each other. That's not even taking into account that being christian doesn't fit into hardcore or any subculture for that point and is being used as a recruitment ground.
I'm still wondering how you can disagree with god.

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 08:49 PM
i dont see how you say its disagreeing with him. he doesnt tell us to drink if he did and it was a order then we would be dis agreeing.

xsecx
03-13-2006, 08:53 PM
i dont see how you say its disagreeing with him. he doesnt tell us to drink if he did and it was a order then we would be dis agreeing.

he does in the eucharist.


so you don't see how believing that drinking alcohol is wrong is disagreeing with god? Jesus drank and provided alcohol. You believe that drinking alcohol is wrong. you're saying that jesus did something that was wrong. How isn't it disagreeing with god?

XBILLYX
03-13-2006, 09:09 PM
because things have change. back then they didnt do it to destory themself like kids today. i dont believe he made it to have kids use it the way they do. you us that in cathlic practice we dont do it with whine as chritians. we hardly do comunin. were you once a christian?

XshiXnyX
03-13-2006, 11:59 PM
I guess im one of the few people who think that jesus was wrong, and that he wasent god.

*shrug* oh well, back to the frying pan

atXdawnXweXburn
03-14-2006, 12:13 AM
I guess im one of the few people who think that jesus was wrong, and that he wasent god.

*shrug* oh well, back to the frying pan


right on, i'm starting to like you more with every post. LoL

SgtD
03-14-2006, 12:26 AM
XBILLYX needs to start and read the thread from the first page.

straightXed
03-14-2006, 02:28 AM
no he drank whine it doesnt say it was alchol it could have been jouice we dont know. because he drank doesnt mean i have to. plus buddy it never said he drank the stuff. it only says he made it.

You obviously read the abridged version of the bible from a cereal packet.

straightXed
03-14-2006, 02:29 AM
your so damn wrong. you make it sound like a colt. he doesnt make you have to drink! just because he did doesnt make us. just because we dont doesnt mean we think hes wrong


No but you say he was wrong for doing so by believing drinking is wrong, thats the point.

straightXed
03-14-2006, 02:34 AM
because things have change. back then they didnt do it to destory themself like kids today. i dont believe he made it to have kids use it the way they do. you us that in cathlic practice we dont do it with whine as chritians. we hardly do comunin. were you once a christian?


So where do you pick up the amendments in gods word? Because if your only reason for negating certain factors of what was written is the change of the times that that would surely leave all of the "good news" out of date and irrelevent thus making christianity an archaic belief system with no relevance in today's world - you could be on to something there.

xsecx
03-14-2006, 09:19 AM
because things have change. back then they didnt do it to destory themself like kids today. i dont believe he made it to have kids use it the way they do. you us that in cathlic practice we dont do it with whine as chritians. we hardly do comunin. were you once a christian?

yeah, that's why the bible doesn't say anything about drunkness being a sin. oh wait it does.
I was raised a christian and then I realized that it didn't fit what I actually believe or how I wanted to live my life.

XshiXnyX
03-14-2006, 11:11 AM
right on, i'm starting to like you more with every post. LoL

I have some advice.

Two things never to talk about to your girlffreind.
Your religion, and why you hate george bush. I just learned the hard way ='(

Danm, thats goona cost ALOT of money ><

kelly
03-14-2006, 11:17 AM
I have some advice.

Two things never to talk about to your girlffreind.
Your religion, and why you hate george bush. I just learned the hard way ='(

Danm, thats goona cost ALOT of money ><
maybe you shoulda talked about those things before she was your girlfriend?

xsecx
03-14-2006, 11:18 AM
maybe you shoulda talked about those things before she was your girlfriend?

but she's like totally hot and that's why you date people.

XshiXnyX
03-14-2006, 11:20 AM
but she's like totally hot and that's why you date people.


See, he knows whats goin on.

And I know well get over it....Unless shes PMSin, cauz then im in trouble x.x

xsecx
03-14-2006, 11:21 AM
See, he knows whats goin on.

And I know well get over it....Unless shes PMSin, cauz then im in trouble x.x

I'm glad you're young.

kelly
03-14-2006, 11:23 AM
I'm glad you're young.
And a bit delusional...

xsecx
03-14-2006, 11:24 AM
And a bit delusional...

come on, you're just pms'ing.

XshiXnyX
03-14-2006, 11:33 AM
ahhh, this thread cracks me up.

XBILLYX
03-14-2006, 12:06 PM
yeah, that's why the bible doesn't say anything about drunkness being a sin. oh wait it does.
I was raised a christian and then I realized that it didn't fit what I actually believe or how I wanted to live my life.

wait you just said it its a sin to be drunk not a sin not to drink. see he nevers says you have to drink.

XBILLYX
03-14-2006, 12:11 PM
ok now i think iam starting to see your point i do disagree with him. but being that he is god and he forgives you for your sins you can disagree with him. if its something to better yourself i dont think hes going to send you to hell.

XshiXnyX
03-14-2006, 12:12 PM
Look, Ima point this out right now. Im not against women or anything, I just think that PMSing is an excuse to be a bitch

Ahh, and let the replies flow forth

xsecx
03-14-2006, 12:18 PM
ok now i think iam starting to see your point i do disagree with him. but being that he is god and he forgives you for your sins you can disagree with him. if its something to better yourself i dont think hes going to send you to hell.

He only forgives you if you repent and change. What you're talking about is living in open defiance of god.

xsecx
03-14-2006, 12:19 PM
wait you just said it its a sin to be drunk not a sin not to drink. see he nevers says you have to drink.

are you at all familiar with the last supper? how is that not telling people to drink wine as symbolism for his blood?

and yes. the bible is clear that moderate drinking isn't a sin, but getting drunk is. however, this also doesn't fit in with straight edge.

XshiXnyX
03-14-2006, 12:27 PM
So having wine at communion is breaking edge right? because I relly like the grape juice that they have ^^

xsecx
03-14-2006, 12:31 PM
So having wine at communion is breaking edge right? because I relly like the grape juice that they have ^^

wine is wine regardless of the setting.

XshiXnyX
03-14-2006, 12:43 PM
Thanks. I was just making sure ^^

collin
03-14-2006, 01:37 PM
He only forgives you if you repent and change. What you're talking about is living in open defiance of god.
no, it's not defying god if you choose not to drink.

xsecx
03-14-2006, 01:39 PM
no, it's not defying god if you choose not to drink.

it is if you say drinking is wrong.

collin
03-14-2006, 01:40 PM
it is if you say drinking is wrong.
no, not really. here we go again.....

xsecx
03-14-2006, 01:42 PM
no, not really. here we go again.....

ok. so how is it not really? your god drinks and makes alcoholic wine for others. you say that drinking is wrong. how is that not defying god and putting yourself above god? Do you kids seriously not understand that by disagreeing with anything your god says or did you are saying that you know better than god?

collin
03-14-2006, 01:48 PM
ok. so how is it not really? your god drinks and makes alcoholic wine for others. you say that drinking is wrong. how is that not defying god and putting yourself above god? Do you kids seriously not understand that by disagreeing with anything your god says or did you are saying that you know better than god?
no we're not, we're just exercising the freewill he gave us. where is the evidence that it was alcoholic?

mouseman004
03-14-2006, 01:52 PM
Nothing is going to be solved by this debate, neither of you will change your minds...why not just stop wasting each others time?

xsecx
03-14-2006, 01:54 PM
no we're not, we're just exercising the freewill he gave us. where is the evidence that it was alcoholic?

the freewill just gives you the ability to make choices, it doesn't give you an excuse to defy god. The fact that you don't even recognize the arrogance that you could be right about something that god isn't is amazing.

the original words used to describe the event at galea was oinos which was alcoholic. The jews did and still do drink alcoholic wine at passover. Jesus used himself as an example of someone who drank alcohol and John the Baptist as someone who doesn't. So where is the evidence that it wasn't alcoholic?

xsecx
03-14-2006, 01:55 PM
Nothing is going to be solved by this debate, neither of you will change your minds...why not just stop wasting each others time?

peoples minds get changed all the time. If you don't want to read it, then don't.

mouseman004
03-14-2006, 01:57 PM
peoples minds get changed all the time. If you don't want to read it, then don't.


Is yours going to change?

xsecx
03-14-2006, 01:59 PM
Is yours going to change?

if someone could actually make a decent argument, sure.

collin
03-14-2006, 02:09 PM
the freewill just gives you the ability to make choices, it doesn't give you an excuse to defy god. The fact that you don't even recognize the arrogance that you could be right about something that god isn't is amazing.

the original words used to describe the event at galea was oinos which was alcoholic. The jews did and still do drink alcoholic wine at passover. Jesus used himself as an example of someone who drank alcohol and John the Baptist as someone who doesn't. So where is the evidence that it wasn't alcoholic?
Moderationists view Christís miraculous transformation of water into wine at the wedding of Cana as primary evidence of Jesusí sanctioning the use of alcoholic beverages. They argue that if Jesus produced between 120 and 160 gallons of high-quality alcoholic wine for the wedding party and guests at Cana, it is evident that He approved of its use in moderation.

The belief that the wine Christ provided in Cana was alcoholic rests on five major assumptions. First, it is assumed that the word oinos "wine" indicates only "fermented-quality grape drink, i.e. wine."5 Second, it is assumed that since the word oinos "wine" is used in reference both to the wine which ran out and the wine that Christ made, both wines must have been alcoholic. Third, it is assumed that the Jews did not know how to prevent the fermentation of grape juice; and since, as argued by William Hendriksen, the season of the wedding was just before Spring Passover (cf. John 2:13), that is, six months after the grape harvest, the wine used at Cana had ample time to ferment.6 Fourth, it is assumed that the description given by the master of the banquet to the wine provided by Christ as "the good wine" means a high-quality alcoholic wine.7 Fifth, it is assumed that the expression "well drunk" (John 2:10) used by the master of the banquet indicates that the guests were intoxicated because they had been drinking fermented wine. Consequently, the wine Jesus made must also have been fermented.8 In view of the importance these assumptions play in determining the nature of the wine provided by Christ, we shall examine each of them briefly in the order given.

The Meaning of Oinos. The popular assumption that both in secular and Biblical Greek the word oinos meant fermented grape juice exclusively was examined at great length in Chapter 2. We submitted numerous examples from both pagan and Christian authors who used the Greek word oinos referring both to fermented and unfermented grape juice. We also noticed that oinos is used at least 33 times in the Septuagint to translate tirosh, the Hebrew word for grape juice.

A better acquaintance with the use of the word "wine," not only in the Greek language, but also in old English, Latin and Hebrew, would have saved scholars from falling into the mistaken conclusion that oinos means only fermented wine. The truth of the matter is, as we have shown, that oinos is a generic term, including all kinds of wine, unfermented and fermented, like yayin in Hebrew and vinum in Latin. Thus the fact that the wine made by Christ at Cana is called oinos, offers no ground for concluding that it was fermented wine. Its nature must be determined by internal evidence and moral likelihood. The record of the evangelist, as we shall see, affords information for determining this question.

Is Oinos Always Alcoholic? The second assumption, that both the wine that ran out and the wine Jesus made were alcoholic, depends largely upon the first assumption, namely, that the word oinos means exclusively alcoholic wine. As stated by Kenneth L. Gentry, "The word oinos is used in reference to both wines in question. It has been shown that this word indicates fermented-quality grape drink, i.e. wine."9

This assumption is discredited by two facts. First, as mentioned earlier, the word oinos is a generic term referring either to fermented or to unfermented wine. Thus the fact that the same word oinos is used for both wines in question does not necessitate that both wines be alcoholic. In his booklet Christ, the Apostles and Wine, Ernest Gordon responds in a similar vein to the same assumption, saying: "To the objection that the word oinos, wine, is used both for the intoxicating wine of the feast and the wine Christ made, and hence that both must have been intoxicating, one can quote Abbott, Dictionary of Religious Knowledge, ĎIt is tolerably clear that the word wine does not necessarily imply fermented liquor. It signifies only a production of the vine.í The eminent Hellenist, Sir Richard Jebb, former Professor of Greek at the University of Cambridge, declared oinos "a general term which might include all kinds of beverages."10

Second, the wine provided by Christ is differentiated from the other by being characterized as ton kalon, "the good" wine. This suggests that the two wines were not identical. The nature of the difference between the two wines will be discussed below.

Preservation of Grape Juice. The third assumption, that it would have been impossible to supply unfermented grape juice for a Spring time wedding about six months after vintage, rests on the assumption that the technology for preserving grape juice unfermented was unknown at the time.

The latter assumption is clearly discredited by numerous testimonies from the Roman world of New Testament times describing various methods for preserving grape juice. We have seen in Chapter 4 that the preservation of grape juice was in some ways a simpler process than the preservation of fermented wine. Thus, the possibility existed at the wedding of Cana to supply unfermented grape juice near the Passover season, since such a beverage could be kept unfermented throughout the year.

"High-Quality Alcoholic Wine." The fourth assumption is that the wine Jesus provided was pronounced "the good wine" (John 2:10) by the master of the banquet, because it was high in alcoholic content. Such an assumption is based on twentieth-century tastes.

Albert Barnes, a well-known New Testament scholar and commentator, warns in his comment on John 2:10 not to "be deceived by the phrase Ďgood wine.í" The reason, he explains, is that "We use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength, and its power to intoxicate. But no such sense is to be attached to the word here."11

We noted in Chapter 4 that in the Roman world of New Testament times, the best wines were those whose alcoholic potency had been removed by boiling or filtration. Pliny, for example, says that "wines are most beneficial (utilissimum) when all their potency has been removed by the strainer."12 Similarly, Plutarch points out that wine is "much more pleasant to drink" when it "neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions"13 because its strength has been removed through frequent filtering.

Referring to some of the same ancient authors, Barnes says: "Pliny, Plutarch and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine which was harmless or innocentópoculis vini innocentis. The most useful wineóutilissimum vinumówas that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wineósaluberrimum vinumówas that which had not been adulterated by Ďthe addition of anything to the must or juice.í Pliny expressly says that a Ďgood wineí was one that was destitute of spirit. Lib iv. c.13. It should not be assumed, therefore, that the Ďgood wineí was stronger than the other. It is rather to be presumed that it was milder. That would be the best wine certainly. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine; nor drugged wine; nor wine compounded of various substances such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape."14

The wine Christ made was of high quality, not because of its alcohol content, but because, as Henry Morris explains, it was "new wine, freshly created! It was not old, decayed wine, as it would have to be if it were intoxicating. There was no time for the fermentation process to break down the structure of its energy-giving sugars into disintegrative alcohols. It thus was a fitting representation of His glory and was appropriate to serve as the very first of His great miracles (John 2:11)."15

xsecx
03-14-2006, 03:24 PM
cut


and this isn't proof but an attempt to ignore history and tradition and try and apply modern feelings on alcohol to the past.


Did Jesus Make Wine or Grape Juice?
By Rev. Sam Harris
Question: Our church is very strong against drinking in any form, and I donít drinkó
mostly because of what I have seen when alcohol destroyed several members of my family
and a marriage. But I also concur with my churchís stand. Our preacher recently preached
on the passage in John 2:1-12 where Jesus performed His first miracle at Canaóturning
water into wine. He stated that Jesus actually turned the water into grape juice. My pastor
uses the New King James Version, and the word ďwineĒ is used in this passage. Iím confused;
what is the real truth here?
Answer: Thanks for the question; itís a ďhorseĒ that has been ridden many times. This
miracle was never meant to emphasize the water into wine, but to demonstrate the awesome
power and deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. As you read through the Gospel of John, all
of the miracles focus attention on Christís deity.
As Christians, we should all be most concerned about the abuse of alcohol. There are
very few families that have not been torn apart by alcohol. Working now in a trauma one
emergency department, I have seen first hand the results of alcohol abuseóoften causing
serious physical disabilities and even death. Alcoholism is a serious problem that must be
addressed!
Now, did Jesus turn water into wine or grape juice? According to the Greek text, the word
used here is oinos, a wine derived from grapes; there is no evidence that wine is to be
translated ďgrape juice.Ē
If you go back into the Old Testament, you find that wine was a symbol of joy and blessing.
Psalm 104:15: ďAnd wine which makes the heart glad, so that he may make his face
glisten with oil, and food which sustains a manís heart.Ē Wine was used as a part of the
offering to God (Exodus 29:40). We also know that wine was drunk at feasts, look at 1
Samuel 25:18. Paul recommended to Timothy that a little wine was good for the stomach
and your frequent ailments (1 Timothy 5: 23). Notice that Paul uses the word ďlittleĒ here.


The fact is, jews drank wine. Jews drank wine at passover then, jews drank wine at passover now. Jesus made a point of distinguishing himself from John the Baptist, who didn't drink. If Jesus didn't drink alcohol, why would he do this?

[Matt. 11:18,19:] "John came neither eating nor drinking, and they
say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and
they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a wine-bibber, a friend of
publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."

XshiXnyX
03-14-2006, 03:26 PM
how much time do you guys spend looking up all this stuff? its impressive

xsecx
03-14-2006, 03:27 PM
how much time do you guys spend looking up all this stuff? its impressive

most of this stuff I have off the top of my head at this point.

XshiXnyX
03-14-2006, 04:28 PM
Thats crazy =P

XBILLYX
03-14-2006, 06:59 PM
lets put it this way. at the end of the day no matter what you say iam going to proclaim iam edge no matter what i say you are to. we arent going to change each others minds no one can make a arguement that will do that. it seems the ones that stick to being the same are just to damn hard headed.

xsecx
03-14-2006, 07:42 PM
lets put it this way. at the end of the day no matter what you say iam going to proclaim iam edge no matter what i say you are to. we arent going to change each others minds no one can make a arguement that will do that. it seems the ones that stick to being the same are just to damn hard headed.

yeah, why at the end of the day should you take a good hard look at the facts and reevaluate your beliefs in something that doesn't make sense.

XshiXnyX
03-14-2006, 09:39 PM
We should a thread where we say something nice about the person above.

Ahhh, thatd be grand

XBILLYX
03-14-2006, 10:21 PM
look dusty i dont give a fuck at how you look at it and if you think iam wrong. iam what iam and if iam wrong in your eyes i dont give a flying fuck. you have came up with some bullshit lie that i cant prove wrong and you cant prove right. think of peter he was forgiven. so i am done arguing with you.

SgtD
03-15-2006, 02:24 AM
I just can't get through to you
Despite all the ways I try or any of the things I do
Maybe I'd be better off talkin to a wall
Cause you ain't making any sense at all

Am I just wastin, just wasting all my precious time
Cause I ain't wastin a breath on you or any of your kind
If you had any brains you would open your mind
But I guess you're juts afriad of what you're gonna find
It's a malfunction

xsecx
03-15-2006, 03:17 AM
look dusty i dont give a fuck at how you look at it and if you think iam wrong. iam what iam and if iam wrong in your eyes i dont give a flying fuck. you have came up with some bullshit lie that i cant prove wrong and you cant prove right. think of peter he was forgiven. so i am done arguing with you.

you are what you are. someone woefully ignorant oftheir own beliefs and living in completely contradiction. You don't even understand the basis of the religion that you were most likely born into, haven't really thought about and never analyzed, just accepted.

XBILLYX
03-15-2006, 12:00 PM
you can say that i guess. but you cant judge me only god will.

atXdawnXweXburn
03-15-2006, 12:06 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/CradleToEnslave665/intermission.jpg

let's all just take a break, eat some s'mores, and sing a nice song...

im singin in the rain
just singin in the rain
what a glorious feelin
i'm happy again

xsecx
03-15-2006, 12:12 PM
you can say that i guess. but you cant judge me only god will.

why not, you think you know more than god, so why can't I know more than you?

straightXed
03-15-2006, 12:14 PM
you can say that i guess. but you cant judge me only god will.

Actually anyone can judge anyone.

XBILLYX
03-15-2006, 01:10 PM
why not, you think you know more than god, so why can't I know more than you?

dusty you can know more then me your older. but i know i dont know anything compared to Gods knowledge. yea anyone one can judge your right but the only one that matters to me is the final judgement when God judges me. i am not ignorant i see what you are saying and what you say makes good sense. but i choose to fallow God still because i dont see it like you.

xsecx
03-15-2006, 01:12 PM
dusty you can know more then me your older. but i know i dont know anything compared to Gods knowledge. yea anyone one can judge your right but the only one that matters to me is the final judgement when God judges me. i am not ignorant i see what you are saying and what you say makes good sense. but i choose to fallow God still because i dont see it like you.

yeah but you're not following god, you're in direct opposition to god's life and words. if you followed god you would be living a life of moderation.

XBILLYX
03-15-2006, 01:19 PM
yes, your right. pretty much the only problem with him is he drank right? so i dont follow him there. so i dont follow him on onething out of a thousand

xsecx
03-15-2006, 01:22 PM
yes, your right. pretty much the only problem with him is he drank right? so i dont follow him there. so i dont follow him on onething out of a thousand

yeah. here's the problem you're a human. you're not immortal. you're not supernatural. you're not omniscient. you aren't perfect. god by the very fact of what it is, is. so, somehow you think you can disagree with god on ANYTHING and think that it's ok.

XBILLYX
03-15-2006, 01:42 PM
yes, remember he died on the cross for are sins. he died so we didnt have to do the old rituals such as drink whine.

xsecx
03-15-2006, 02:03 PM
yes, remember he died on the cross for are sins. he died so we didnt have to do the old rituals such as drink whine.

that's not true. nor does it actually address the issue of you believing your god is wrong. seriously, do you have even a basic understanding of your own religion?

SgtD
03-15-2006, 02:04 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/CradleToEnslave665/intermission.jpg

let's all just take a break, eat some s'mores, and sing a nice song...

im singin in the rain
just singin in the rain
what a glorious feelin
i'm happy again
hippie!

SgtD
03-15-2006, 02:06 PM
yes, remember he died on the cross for are sins. he died so we didnt have to do the old rituals such as drink whine.
seems like you don't really get the christian belief!

collin
03-15-2006, 02:49 PM
yeah. here's the problem you're a human. you're not immortal. you're not supernatural. you're not omniscient. you aren't perfect. god by the very fact of what it is, is. so, somehow you think you can disagree with god on ANYTHING and think that it's ok.
Dude, nobody said christians are immortal...jesus died so that we don't have to be anything other than his followers. i'm not going to drink, but i'm not going to be crucified or walk on water. does that mean that i'm disagreeing with god because I'm not doing exactly what his son did?

atXdawnXweXburn
03-15-2006, 02:59 PM
hippie!

nah, i just like s'mores and old fred astaire movies.

collin
03-15-2006, 03:07 PM
nah, i just like s'mores and old fred astaire movies.
i'm more of a frank sinatra guy myself, never cared much for ol' fred...

atXdawnXweXburn
03-15-2006, 03:24 PM
i'm more of a frank sinatra guy myself, never cared much for ol' fred...

indeed, ol' blue eyes was quite the singer.

xsecx
03-15-2006, 03:55 PM
Dude, nobody said christians are immortal...jesus died so that we don't have to be anything other than his followers. i'm not going to drink, but i'm not going to be crucified or walk on water. does that mean that i'm disagreeing with god because I'm not doing exactly what his son did?

thanks for demonstrating that you don't even understand the issue.

XshiXnyX
03-15-2006, 06:00 PM
You know, Im really suprised that this thread has even gotten to 25 pages

hmmm, Now if I could just find that one picture...

XBILLYX
03-15-2006, 09:01 PM
yea better then you do apparently. now i figured out why its so hard for you to see it. i was haveing a hard time why you didnt get it. but you said you were raised chritian not that you accepted christ and you became a christain. if you did you would see his insight. do you understand no you dont hes not in you. he lives in me i disagree with drinking so iam a christian and sXe

xsecx
03-15-2006, 09:04 PM
yea better then you do apparently. now i figured out why its so hard for you to see it. i was haveing a hard time why you didnt get it. but you said you were raised chritian not that you accepted christ and you became a christain. if you did you would see his insight. do you understand no you dont hes not in you. he lives in me i disagree with drinking so iam a christian and sXe

yeah, because you somehow believe him dying for your sins is somehow related to you being able to to think that jesus was something he wasn't capable of. How can he live in someone that doesn't believe he's god?

XBILLYX
03-15-2006, 09:16 PM
see i do you dont. he lives in me. so your saying he was incapale of not drinking?

xsecx
03-15-2006, 09:19 PM
see i do you dont. he lives in me. so your saying he was incapale of not drinking?

man you're dense. I'm saying that if Jesus was god he isn't capable of being wrong. You're saying not only was he capable, but that he was wrong. Jesus drank. Jesue provided alcohol to others. You believe that drinking is wrong and that the behavior that jesus did was wrong. So what else were jesus and god wrong about? Do you kids honestly don't get that you can't think anything jesus did on any level is wrong or it completely fucks up your religion?

XshiXnyX
03-15-2006, 09:20 PM
man you're dense. I'm saying that if Jesus was god he isn't capable of being wrong. You're saying not only was he capable, but that he was wrong. Jesus drank. Jesue provided alcohol to others. You believe that drinking is wrong and that the behavior that jesus did was wrong. So what else were jesus and god wrong about? Do you kids honestly don't get that you can't think anything jesus did on any level is wrong or it completely fucks up your religion?

So what if we dont believe that jesus was god, or that jesus is perfect?

XBILLYX
03-15-2006, 09:22 PM
dont you get it. the whine meant nothing to him. it was a symbol of his blood! being that it was whine wasnt the point. it could have been anything.

xsecx
03-15-2006, 09:27 PM
dont you get it. the whine meant nothing to him. it was a symbol of his blood! being that it was whine wasnt the point. it could have been anything.

don't you get it, he drank wine because culturally,historically and traditionally it's what people did and continue to do. It couldn't have been anything because it was the passover meal, if you're talking about the eucharist. He could have turned water into anything, but he CHOSE wine. Your god had no problem with people drinking wine, yet you somehow do. So I'm still wondering, what else was god and jesus wrong about? What else do you know better than they do about?

xsecx
03-15-2006, 09:27 PM
So what if we dont believe that jesus was god, or that jesus is perfect?

then you're not a christian?

atXdawnXweXburn
03-15-2006, 09:28 PM
dont you get it. the whine meant nothing to him. it was a symbol of his blood! being that it was whine wasnt the point. it could have been anything.

the entire point is that jesus drank wine, and made it readily available to others. at the last supper he even passed it around and ENCOURAGED the drinking of it ("drink this in rememberence of me")

therefore the religion and sXe are at a flawed compatability. apparently you're the one who doesnt get it.

XBILLYX
03-15-2006, 09:30 PM
yea he doesnt with people drinking it. its this modern time when its become a hobby to see how cool you are. i hate drinking i hate what it does to you i hate all of it but do you think if it wasnt this way we would still think the same way? do you think if people drank it like he did we would have a problem? what we have become is because of the way the devil has used it to destroy people not because god drank it.

xsecx
03-15-2006, 09:35 PM
yea he doesnt with people drinking it. its this modern time when its become a hobby to see how cool you are. i hate drinking i hate what it does to you i hate all of it but do you think if it wasnt this way we would still think the same way? do you think if people drank it like he did we would have a problem? what we have become is because of the way the devil has used it to destroy people not because god drank it.

this is a bullshit argument though. drunkness didn't just happen. It's been a problem since the beginning of time. Hinduism and Buddhism, which predate christianity are both very clear that any consumption of alcohol get in the way. Judaism and Christianty aren't this way. Jesus drank alcohol because he was a jew and had no problem with it. You're still back to the same point in thinking something Jesus did was wrong, and that you're right. Jesus is either right for his time or right for all time. You can't have it both ways. And you still haven't answered what else jesus and god have been wrong about.

atXdawnXweXburn
03-15-2006, 09:36 PM
this is a bullshit argument though. drunkness didn't just happen. It's been a problem since the beginning of time. Hinduism and Buddhism, which predate christianity are both very clear that any consumption of alcohol get in the way. Judaism and Christianty aren't this way. Jesus drank alcohol because he was a jew and had no problem with it. You're still back to the same point in thinking something Jesus did was wrong, and that you're right. Jesus is either right for his time or right for all time. You can't have it both ways. And you still haven't answered what else jesus and god have been wrong about.


you're completely right

even noah was a winemaker, and a BIBLE DOCUMENTED alcoholic

XBILLYX
03-15-2006, 09:38 PM
i say nothing. but the devil has used it forever against god. dont you see they used it yes but didnt abuse it. they dint kill themselves with it. did they? why was sXe started? because kids hated how people destroyed themselves with it not because they didnt agree with god.

XshiXnyX
03-15-2006, 09:39 PM
then you're not a christian?

oh, guess im not. hmm, alwasy though I at least kind of wa.

Learn new things everyday =P

xsecx
03-15-2006, 09:40 PM
you're completely right

even noah was a winemaker, and a BIBLE DOCUMENTED alcoholic

the old testament is full of some fucked up shit. lot's daughters getting him drunk and essentially raping him.

atXdawnXweXburn
03-15-2006, 09:42 PM
people turning to salt. a benevolent god flooding the earth. incest (adam and eve. come on now. if they were the only 2 made, how did six billion+ people come about?)

isnt incest supposed to be a sin?

xsecx
03-15-2006, 09:42 PM
i say nothing. but the devil has used it forever against god. dont you see they used it yes but didnt abuse it. they dint kill themselves with it. did they? why was sXe started? because kids hated how people destroyed themselves with it not because they didnt agree with god.

right then your issue should be with the abuse of alcohol, not the consumption of it. then your beliefs wouldn't contradict. And the kids who started straight edge very much didn't agree with god.

stepinsideissue
03-16-2006, 02:01 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/CradleToEnslave665/intermission.jpg

let's all just take a break, eat some s'mores, and sing a nice song...

im singin in the rain
just singin in the rain
what a glorious feelin
i'm happy again


That was not very hXc.

XBILLYX
03-16-2006, 01:37 PM
right then your issue should be with the abuse of alcohol, not the consumption of it. then your beliefs wouldn't contradict. And the kids who started straight edge very much didn't agree with god.

and the differce is?

xsecx
03-16-2006, 01:40 PM
and the differce is?

being straight edge means being against any level of consumption of alcoholic beverages.

XBILLYX
03-16-2006, 01:42 PM
yep. and iam.

xsecx
03-16-2006, 01:43 PM
yep. and iam.

so you think jesus was wrong for drinking wine and providing wine to others.

THEGROUPCONSCIOUS
03-17-2006, 09:54 AM
When "Straight Edge" first came about, it was never about a No Tolerence Policy. it was about not getting fucked up. If you have one glass of wine, its not going to fuck you up, but it could lead to that, which is bad. But, if you do drugs then your reality is automatically inpaired, rendering you out of control of your bady. Hence, making you fucked up. Same with sex. It was never about chastity and not having sex, it was about staying in control of your body and only having sex with one partner. The image of straight edge that we have today is a bastardized, raped, and mutated form and a warped reality of what it should be.

Straight edge is about staying in control of your body, NOT about a no tolerence policy.

XBILLYX
03-17-2006, 12:00 PM
when i tried saying that i couldnt fine the words. dusty will tell you thats not true, or atleast he did me.

xsecx
03-17-2006, 12:38 PM
When "Straight Edge" first came about, it was never about a No Tolerence Policy. it was about not getting fucked up. If you have one glass of wine, its not going to fuck you up, but it could lead to that, which is bad. But, if you do drugs then your reality is automatically inpaired, rendering you out of control of your bady. Hence, making you fucked up. Same with sex. It was never about chastity and not having sex, it was about staying in control of your body and only having sex with one partner. The image of straight edge that we have today is a bastardized, raped, and mutated form and a warped reality of what it should be.

Straight edge is about staying in control of your body, NOT about a no tolerence policy.

when "straight edge" came about as a movement, and not a song, it was actually about a no tolerence policy. Unless you have some evidence that it wasn't?

xsecx
03-17-2006, 12:38 PM
when i tried saying that i couldnt fine the words. dusty will tell you thats not true, or atleast he did me.

that's because it's not true. unless you want to tell me how you drink a beer and still be straight edge?

XBILLYX
03-17-2006, 02:17 PM
i cant. i dont think you can drink a beer and be sXe. i forgot he had said the no Tolerence Policy. but i agree with its all about control.

xsecx
03-17-2006, 04:17 PM
i cant. i dont think you can drink a beer and be sXe. i forgot he had said the no Tolerence Policy. but i agree with its all about control.

no one ever said that it wasn't all about control.

THEGROUPCONSCIOUS
03-17-2006, 04:25 PM
when "straight edge" came about as a movement, and not a song, it was actually about a no tolerence policy. Unless you have some evidence that it wasn't?


Well, I am going by what Ian has said in articles and interviews about it. It wasn't like a caucus sat down and said "THIS IS STRAIGHT EDGE" ... its personal beliefs and personal choices.





Ian Mackaye:

"From my point of view, I am not interested in intolerance. I am interested in respect for people's decisions in their lives. I have my own opinions and I live my own fucking life by those opinions. If someone leaned on me, told me what to do, I would tell them to fuck off. People who did that really pissed me off."




"All Ages: Reflections on Straight Edge"
By Beth Lahickey
Pg 103

xsecx
03-17-2006, 04:27 PM
Well, I am going by what Ian has said in articles and interviews about it. It wasn't like a caucus sat down and said "THIS IS STRAIGHT EDGE" ... its personal beliefs and personal choices.

please read the part where it says became a movement. when that happened ian mackaye had nothing to do with it and who's opinion on the subject doesn't really matter at this point.

PSF: How did the idea of 'straight-edge' come about?

It was just the title of a song that i wrote. I guess I coined the phrase but certainly never intended to start a movement.

PSF: Do you still follow this?

I am still straight, but have never really been involved with the 'straight edge movement'.

http://www.furious.com/PERFECT/fugazi.html

THEGROUPCONSCIOUS
03-17-2006, 04:51 PM
When did I ever say that I embrace the movement? I embrace the lifestyle. When it becomes a movement, it becomes a trend.

xsecx
03-17-2006, 08:01 PM
When did I ever say that I embrace the movement? I embrace the lifestyle. When it becomes a movement, it becomes a trend.

there is no lifestyle, there's only the movement at this point. And since it became a movement 20 years ago, I'm not really sure what your point is since no one involved in straight edge would agree with you that drinking a beer would be ok.

XBILLYX
03-18-2006, 06:24 PM
iam dumb and disagree with dusty on alot of things but its a movement no doubt.

SgtD
03-19-2006, 04:19 AM
iam dumb
we all knew about this!

stepinsideissue
03-19-2006, 08:38 AM
we all knew about this!


Hahaha if the shoe fits right?

SgtD
03-19-2006, 09:02 AM
Hahaha if the shoe fits right?
n/t

stepinsideissue
03-19-2006, 09:27 AM
n/t


n/t ?????

SgtD
03-19-2006, 02:18 PM
n/t ?????
yeah, no text. your sentence said it all. same as "nuff said"

stepinsideissue
03-19-2006, 04:47 PM
yeah, no text. your sentence said it all. same as "nuff said"


Gotcha.

XBILLYX
03-19-2006, 08:40 PM
we all knew about this!
cutie. just because i dont conform.

SgtD
03-20-2006, 12:07 AM
cutie. just because i dont conform.
well, conformation has nothing to do with you calling yourself dumb!

xMoranXArmyx
03-20-2006, 11:34 PM
Ok, so already I've been hearing some controversy...So what do you guys think? Can you be sXe and Christian?

i would think that the two would pretty much go hand in hand. jesus encouraged a healthy mind, body, and spirit. doesn't sXe encourage the same thing? i am proud to call my self christian(catholic) sXe...and no, i dont take wine at communion. lol...personally, i never have.

atXdawnXweXburn
03-21-2006, 12:16 AM
i would think that the two would pretty much go hand in hand. jesus encouraged a healthy mind, body, and spirit. doesn't sXe encourage the same thing? i am proud to call my self christian(catholic) sXe...and no, i dont take wine at communion. lol...personally, i never have.

the whole point is really that jesus made wine, drank wine, and encouraged its use. at least i believe that's what the gist of the whole thread was about. how can you be straightedge when you follow a system of beliefs that encourage such things? jesus even said to drink wine in rememberance of his blood. hence where communion wine comes from. even though they both encourage healthy minds and bodies there are majour differences.

so as i myself stated before, no. i dont believe it is a possibility to be christian and sXe.

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 12:30 AM
the whole point is really that jesus made wine, drank wine, and encouraged its use. at least i believe that's what the gist of the whole thread was about. how can you be straightedge when you follow a system of beliefs that encourage such things? jesus even said to drink wine in rememberance of his blood. hence where communion wine comes from. even though they both encourage healthy minds and bodies there are majour differences.

so as i myself stated before, no. i dont believe it is a possibility to be christian and sXe.

well just because you are Catholic doesnt mean you have to take wine. i dont take wine at communion. sure, he encourages the usage of it in communal sense, however, i dont drink the wine, never have, never will. i get what you are trying to say, but i think that you are a little confused on what some church teaching is. They don't mandate that you must take wine, it is your personal choice. As for Christ, I believe in most of Christ's teachings, but i do not believe in the catholic teaching of transubstantiation (the bread and wine becoming the body and blood of christ). should i be banned to hell? should i be kicked out of the sXe realm?

atXdawnXweXburn
03-21-2006, 12:34 AM
should i be banned to hell? should i be kicked out of the sXe realm?


come on now, did i ever say that? hell, just because you dont take the wine doesnt mean anything. as i stated, its the whole belief system that he ENCOURAGED it. you're following the teachings of somebody who was definately not sXe. even so, its nothing to get worked up about. i have plenty of friends who aren't sXe. you wont be "kicked out of the realm" or shunned because of your beliefs. personally, i respect the fact you're drug free. it takes some guts to be frug free now days, and i think it's admirable. even so, i wouldnt quite say you're sXe

and yeah, i have no problems with catholics. i'm marrying into a big ass irish catholic family.

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 12:36 AM
it just seems that sXe is only reserved for agnostics and aetheists and other forms of religion other than christianity....am i correct? this seems strange since i thought that sXe was against forms of discrimination

atXdawnXweXburn
03-21-2006, 12:39 AM
it just seems that sXe is only reserved for agnostics and aetheists and other forms of religion other than christianity....am i correct? this seems strange since i thought that sXe was against forms of discrimination

honestly, this would be more of a question for dusty. i dont have the knowledge to say so much, but i wouldnt quite call it "discrimination"

it's not like all sXe people HATE christians. as i said, i have nothing against them. but i just believe that due to the beliefs behind christianity it is impossible to unite sXe with the religion.

but hey, ask dusty. he'll know for sure.

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 12:39 AM
since i'm new to this entire mindset of sXe...please clarify this for me because arent there christian sXe bands out there? (ie xLooking Forwardx)

SgtD
03-21-2006, 12:40 AM
it just seems that sXe is only reserved for agnostics and aetheists and other forms of religion other than christianity....am i correct? this seems strange since i thought that sXe was against forms of discrimination
if you bother reading the trhead and think about it, you'll understand how the two contradict each other.
and sxe is pretty much discriminating, do you think it's an openminded movement while we diss people who do recreational drugs?

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 12:42 AM
honestly, this would be more of a question for dusty. i dont have the knowledge to say so much, but i wouldnt quite call it "discrimination"

it's not like all sXe people HATE christians. as i said, i have nothing against them. but i just believe that due to the beliefs behind christianity it is impossible to unite sXe with the religion.

but hey, ask dusty. he'll know for sure.

you wouldnt quite call the fact that there are people who consider themselves sXe, but who are christian, in reality really can never be sXe because they believe in Christ who said "take this cup and drink of my blood" ? that seems like discrimination to me...no offense man, i totally get what you are saying...but overall, it seems like discrimination. you can never be sXe because you are christian

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 12:44 AM
if you bother reading the trhead and think about it, you'll understand how the two contradict each other.
and sxe is pretty much discriminating, do you think it's an openminded movement while we diss people who do recreational drugs?


well, as you know, i'm new to this. i'm still seeing if giving this new method of drug free mindset will turn into a potential sXe life. you guys gotta help me out.

atXdawnXweXburn
03-21-2006, 12:47 AM
you wouldnt quite call the fact that there are people who consider themselves sXe, but who are christian, in reality really can never be sXe because they believe in Christ who said "take this cup and drink of my blood" ? that seems like discrimination to me...no offense man, i totally get what you are saying...but overall, it seems like discrimination. you can never be sXe because you are christian


hence why i said to ask dusty for sure.

but either way it goes, congrats on being drug free *throws confetti*

at least you wont end up homeless on the street blowing people for meth money like my mom! =P

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 12:49 AM
so ultimately, to end this tiff, i am not sXe because i am christian...therefore, must i renounce my faith to become sXe?

atXdawnXweXburn
03-21-2006, 12:51 AM
so ultimately, to end this tiff, i am not sXe because i am christian...therefore, must i renounce my faith to become sXe?


i plead the fifth

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 12:52 AM
lol...so many technicalities....ARGGG!!!

atXdawnXweXburn
03-21-2006, 12:53 AM
lol...so many technicalities....ARGGG!!!

indeed, it is a technical lifestyle.

well, im going to go get some rice milk and hit the sack. its almost 2 am, and i have to be up in 5 hours. good luck on finding the answer to your question

SgtD
03-21-2006, 12:57 AM
so ultimately, to end this tiff, i am not sXe because i am christian...therefore, must i renounce my faith to become sXe?
i'd say, you are a phony sxe, and a phony christian if you think you can be both. the contradiction is clear, and i'M glad you accept this, unlike most christians on this board who are extremely one-sided.
you can't be christian and edge

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 01:01 AM
well, i was discouraged quickly...lol...i dunno, perhaps we should consult the sXe God's for assistance

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 01:04 AM
well, i was discouraged quickly...lol...i dunno, perhaps we should consult the sXe God's for assistance


no seriously, i'm kidding...but yeah dude, didnt realize that sXe really got down to the nitty gritty...i thought it would be open to christianity...does this mean i can no longer post on here?

SgtD
03-21-2006, 01:15 AM
no seriously, i'm kidding...but yeah dude, didnt realize that sXe really got down to the nitty gritty...i thought it would be open to christianity...does this mean i can no longer post on here?
i suggest you think your life through. if you're committed to christianity that much, i guess you should just not call yourself sxe, to avoid looking dumb (like the other "sxe" christians on here.) you can enjoy being drug free without the label sxe anyway...

THEGROUPCONSCIOUS
03-21-2006, 08:45 AM
This is pathetic. Like Christianity, Straight Edge should be a personal thing. If you have to ask "Because of this technicallity, am I still straight edge?" You probably never were to begin with. It's pretty lame when you have to ask other people how to live your life based on thier own fractured opinions.

It seems to me that these sxe Christians are a lot more open and loving in every way about this and about not being discriminative. Hmmmm.... don't the atheists and agnostics normally yell at Christians about being self-righteous assholes? Seems like you guys have this thing backwards.





Now, to address the Jesus >> Wine >> Distributing thing...

Jesus was in fact perfect, even though he drank "wine". Contrary to popular beliefs on this board, Jesus was not wasted 24/7 like some people would have you to believe. Wine was NOT the only drink available in the area. Saying that it was is bullshit. Water was very abundant, you know the story... Jesus gets into town... he's tired and thristy.... the hooker goes and gets him water to drink from the well... that hooker was Mary.

Yes, some people did get drunk though: The atheists, agnostics, and pagens...

There were many different potencies and proofs though. Dinner wine was basically just barely fermented, where as the wine the drunkards consumed were a much higher dose. In essence, you had different brands. Then you had the "wine" that was grape juice.

When Jesus turned water to wine he made grape juice... the people were already drunk so they couldn't tell the difference.

xsecx
03-21-2006, 09:04 AM
it just seems that sXe is only reserved for agnostics and aetheists and other forms of religion other than christianity....am i correct? this seems strange since i thought that sXe was against forms of discrimination

what makes you think this is a problem with straight edge and not a problem with christianity?

xsecx
03-21-2006, 09:08 AM
This is pathetic. Like Christianity, Straight Edge should be a personal thing. If you have to ask "Because of this technicallity, am I still straight edge?" You probably never were to begin with. It's pretty lame when you have to ask other people how to live your life based on thier own fractured opinions.

It seems to me that these sxe Christians are a lot more open and loving in every way about this and about not being discriminative. Hmmmm.... don't the atheists and agnostics normally yell at Christians about being self-righteous assholes? Seems like you guys have this thing backwards.





Now, to address the Jesus >> Wine >> Distributing thing...

Jesus was in fact perfect, even though he drank "wine". Contrary to popular beliefs on this board, Jesus was not wasted 24/7 like some people would have you to believe. Wine was NOT the only drink available in the area. Saying that it was is bullshit. Water was very abundant, you know the story... Jesus gets into town... he's tired and thristy.... the hooker goes and gets him water to drink from the well... that hooker was Mary.

Yes, some people did get drunk though: The atheists, agnostics, and pagens...

There were many different potencies and proofs though. Dinner wine was basically just barely fermented, where as the wine the drunkards consumed were a much higher dose. In essence, you had different brands. Then you had the "wine" that was grape juice.

When Jesus turned water to wine he made grape juice... the people were already drunk so they couldn't tell the difference.

Considering you think you can drink and be edge, let's just take your views on what straight edge is or should be with a grain of salt. You also are failing to understand the arguement and using terms like discriminatory clearly demonstrates that.

you don't actually read what people write do you? Point to me where anyone said anything about jesus being drunk.

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 09:29 AM
This is pathetic. Like Christianity, Straight Edge should be a personal thing. If you have to ask "Because of this technicallity, am I still straight edge?" You probably never were to begin with. It's pretty lame when you have to ask other people how to live your life based on thier own fractured opinions.

It seems to me that these sxe Christians are a lot more open and loving in every way about this and about not being discriminative. Hmmmm.... don't the atheists and agnostics normally yell at Christians about being self-righteous assholes? Seems like you guys have this thing backwards.





Now, to address the Jesus >> Wine >> Distributing thing...

Jesus was in fact perfect, even though he drank "wine". Contrary to popular beliefs on this board, Jesus was not wasted 24/7 like some people would have you to believe. Wine was NOT the only drink available in the area. Saying that it was is bullshit. Water was very abundant, you know the story... Jesus gets into town... he's tired and thristy.... the hooker goes and gets him water to drink from the well... that hooker was Mary.

Yes, some people did get drunk though: The atheists, agnostics, and pagens...

There were many different potencies and proofs though. Dinner wine was basically just barely fermented, where as the wine the drunkards consumed were a much higher dose. In essence, you had different brands. Then you had the "wine" that was grape juice.

When Jesus turned water to wine he made grape juice... the people were already drunk so they couldn't tell the difference.

yeah man, i don't really take orders from ppl over the internet. truth be told, most of the people i have encountered on this message board are pricks and instead of being helpful, love to shoot others down. perhaps they were abused as children. i really don't know. however, there have been a few of you on here who have been helpful and thank you. i was under the impression that sXe enveloped the ideas of Anti-Alcohol, Anti-Drug, Anti-Tobacco, and Anti-Promiscuous sex. I thought that sXe was a purely secular thing. All of a sudden, I'm now hearing that if you are christian you are banned from sXe all together. Three words: I'm Fuckin' Confused. I get one response that's like, good for you man, welcome to the sXe life, keep it up. And then i hear, you don't belong here...you can never experience a pure sXe life. What the fuck is going on? Anti-Alcohol, Anti-Drug, Anti-Tobacco, Anti-Promiscuous sex is what I'm bent on preserving. Does this mean that if i can't be sXe and believe in christ, then are you all implying that living in a society dominated by vices is something that we should eradicate by killing people mercilessly because of this cause? The Group Conscious is right, sXe is a self righteous thing. Why are we attacking eachother? Again, i believed that Christianity and sXe embraced some of the same things. Healthy mind, body, and spirit. It's funny how most people are narrow minded. I fully believe that one can be christian and sXe. What would Ian McKaye say? Why don't we ask him? I'm not trying to attack anyone here, just make a statement about what I've seen. This is one of the most un-welcoming forums out here.

xsecx
03-21-2006, 09:32 AM
yeah man, i don't really take orders from ppl over the internet. truth be told, most of the people i have encountered on this message board are pricks and instead of being helpful, love to shoot others down. perhaps they were abused as children. i really don't know. however, there have been a few of you on here who have been helpful and thank you. i was under the impression that sXe enveloped the ideas of Anti-Alcohol, Anti-Drug, Anti-Tobacco, and Anti-Promiscuous sex. I thought that sXe was a purely secular thing. All of a sudden, I'm now hearing that if you are christian you are banned from sXe all together. Three words: I'm Fuckin' Confused. I get one response that's like, good for you man, welcome to the sXe life, keep it up. And then i hear, you don't belong here...you can never experience a pure sXe life. What the fuck is going on? Anti-Alcohol, Anti-Drug, Anti-Tobacco, Anti-Promiscuous sex is what I'm bent on preserving. Does this mean that if i can't be sXe and believe in christ, then are you all implying that living in a society dominated by vices is something that we should eradicate by killing people mercilessly because of this cause? The Group Conscious is right, sXe is a self righteous thing. Why are we attacking eachother? Again, i believed that Christianity and sXe embraced some of the same things. Healthy mind, body, and spirit. It's funny how most people are narrow minded. I fully believe that one can be christian and sXe. What would Ian McKaye say? Why don't we ask him? I'm not trying to attack anyone here, just make a statement about what I've seen. This is one of the most un-welcoming forums out here.

this is what happens when all you do is read a title and not actually read what a thread says or what it's about. Christiantiy isn't anti-alcohol. straight edge is. yet you are trying to turn this isn't how we're going to discriminate against you? I suggest you go back and actually read the tread and see where the issue actually is.

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 09:37 AM
this is what happens when all you do is read a title and not actually read what a thread says or what it's about. Christiantiy isn't anti-alcohol. straight edge is. yet you are trying to turn this isn't how we're going to discriminate against you? I suggest you go back and actually read the tread and see where the issue actually is.


christianity isn't anti alcohol, yet they never say that you MUST consume alcohol in order to become closer to God. Jesus offered wine as "his blood" HOWEVER, it is your choice to consume it. Also if christianity isnt anti-alcohol, then Christian sects like seventh day adventists and mormons must be going to hell right? After all, they do not believe in taking alcohol because their bodies are temples.

xsecx
03-21-2006, 09:40 AM
christianity isn't anti alcohol, yet they never say that you MUST consume alcohol in order to become closer to God. Jesus offered wine as "his blood" HOWEVER, it is your choice to consume it. Also if christianity isnt anti-alcohol, then Christian sects like seventh day adventists and mormons must be going to hell right? After all, they do not believe in taking alcohol because their bodies are temples.

they're saying that god is wrong. so yeah. they would be. It all comes down to the same point, if jesus is god and god is perfect then jesus is perfect, how can you find fault in anything that jesus did? How can you be right and jesus be wrong?

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 09:45 AM
they're saying that god is wrong. so yeah. they would be. It all comes down to the same point, if jesus is god and god is perfect then jesus is perfect, how can you find fault in anything that jesus did? How can you be right and jesus be wrong?

lol..oh man, you have a lot to learn. word of advice, don't pass judgement on christians when you aren't christian yourself.

xsecx
03-21-2006, 09:49 AM
lol..oh man, you have a lot to learn. word of advice, don't pass judgement on christians when you aren't christian yourself.

see, when people have a problem with a subject, and know they can't talk about it, they normally bust out the "you don't understand" "you've got a lot to learn" statements and then don't actually support those statements at all.

why can't I pass judgements on christians and why would I need to be one myself to?

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 09:51 AM
see, when people have a problem with a subject, and know they can't talk about it, they normally bust out the "you don't understand" "you've got a lot to learn" statements and then don't actually support those statements at all.

why can't I pass judgements on christians and why would I need to be one myself to?

so ultimately you are an authoritarian on the Church, xsecx?

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 09:52 AM
i'll be waiting for your bestselling book on how "Christians who don't drink alcohol are going to hell"

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 09:53 AM
i'll be waiting for your bestselling book on how "Christians who don't drink alcohol are going to hell" I mean, with all those credentials, how could you not be wrong!

xsecx
03-21-2006, 09:53 AM
i'll be waiting for your bestselling book on how "Christians who don't drink alcohol are going to hell"

did you seriously read anything in this thread?

xsecx
03-21-2006, 09:54 AM
so ultimately you are an authoritarian on the Church, xsecx?

so ultimately you can't actually talk about what's being discussed?

xMoranXArmyx
03-21-2006, 10:02 AM
so ultimately you can't actually talk about what's being discussed?

lol...there's a difference between a Christian telling a Christian how to live his/her life and a fuckin non-christian telling a christian how he/she should live life.

but no, i'm not an authoritarian either, and if you are gonna continue to argue with me, you will not break new ground. it's a lost cause. i'll just leave this forum, never to bother you guys again. However, i will say that this forum is extremely un-helpful. lol...what a crock of shit. to those in here who have been helpful, thank you. its sXe assholes that discourage people in society to go edge for fear they might be rejected and made fun of.

xsecx
03-21-2006, 10:05 AM
lol...there's a difference between a Christian telling a Christian how to live his/her life and a fuckin non-christian telling a christian how he/she should live life.


then go find some christians that believe that jesus is god and perfect and that you can't contradict him. shouldn't be hard. Not really sure how it's any different, since all anyone here is saying is that if you're going to be christian you should actually follow your religion.



but no, i'm not an authoritarian either, and if you are gonna continue to argue with me, you will not break new ground. it's a lost cause. i'll just leave this forum, never to bother you guys again. However, i will say that this forum is extremely un-helpful. lol...what a crock of shit. to those in here who have been helpful, thank you. its sXe assholes that discourage people in society to go edge for fear they might be rejected and made fun of.

because you don't actually read or understand what's being discussed. I'm not really sure how it's unhelpful, since hardcore, punk and underground music in general has a really long and vocal history of being at best at odds with christianity and at worst very anti christian.

THEGROUPCONSCIOUS
03-21-2006, 10:24 AM
I'm not really sure how it's unhelpful, since hardcore, punk and underground music in general has a really long and vocal history of being at best at odds with christianity and at worst very anti christian.

Oh, I didn't know playing notes of music in a specific order could be anti-christian.

xsecx
03-21-2006, 10:27 AM
Oh, I didn't know playing notes of music in a specific order could be anti-christian.

oh, I'm sure you're not aware that notes of music in a specific order have things called lyrics to accompany them.

stepinsideissue
03-26-2006, 02:13 AM
lol..oh man, you have a lot to learn. word of advice, don't pass judgement on christians when you aren't christian yourself.


Why not. They have no problem passing judgement on those that aren't. Fucking hypocrites.

jim
03-28-2006, 01:48 PM
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I think I have an idea of main arguments. I believe that a certain ammount of drinking is not immoral according to the Bible, but I have also decided not to consume alcohol because I don't want to be a part of that scene. How does being a Christian, in this sense, keep me from being sXe? Sorry if you already answered this question earlier, I didn't see anything that cleared this question up for me.

jim
03-28-2006, 02:01 PM
lol..oh man, you have a lot to learn. word of advice, don't pass judgement on christians when you aren't christian yourself.

Dumb advice.


Why not. They have no problem passing judgement on those that aren't. Fucking hypocrites.

Christians don't claim to be perfect. The "judgments" most Christians are passing when they are accused of being hypocrites, are only statements of thier beliefs about morality. Christians know they aren't able to live up to the standards that are set before them. No one can hope to live a perfect life (This is where a preacher would insert a message on grace). Christians are supposed to help people see what they are doing wrong to help them, not to hurt them. Not all Christians are good at this, but I don't think that's any reason to blow off all Christians.

-sorry if this is off topic

xsecx
03-28-2006, 02:18 PM
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I think I have an idea of main arguments. I believe that a certain ammount of drinking is not immoral according to the Bible, but I have also decided not to consume alcohol because I don't want to be a part of that scene. How does being a Christian, in this sense, keep me from being sXe? Sorry if you already answered this question earlier, I didn't see anything that cleared this question up for me.

because people who are edge believe that any amount of drinking alcohol is wrong and shouldn't be consumed. This belief is in direct contradiction to the to your statement of " I believe that a certain ammount of drinking is not immoral according to the Bible,"

jim
03-28-2006, 03:24 PM
because people who are edge believe that any amount of drinking alcohol is wrong and shouldn't be consumed.
If that's the case, then what basis do athiests have for a moral objection to anyone drinking alcohol? Sure an athiest could choose to abstain from it, but they have no authority to claim that it is wrong for everyone.

xsecx
03-28-2006, 05:03 PM
If that's the case, then what basis do athiests have for a moral objection to anyone drinking alcohol? Sure an athiest could choose to abstain from it, but they have no authority to claim that it is wrong for everyone.

morals aren't defined purely by god. There's also no requirement of authority for someone to believe it's wrong for everyone.

jim
03-28-2006, 05:09 PM
Morals don't need to be defined by God, but an athiest claiming the existance of an absolute moral has no backing. A claim like that is just as true as a claim by any other athiest that says it's wrong to not drink. Your definition of sXe is messed up.

xsecx
03-28-2006, 05:16 PM
Morals don't need to be defined by God, but an athiest claiming the existance of an absolute moral has no backing. A claim like that is just as true as a claim by any other athiest that says it's wrong to not drink. Your definition of sXe is messed up.

A christian claiming the existance of an absolute moral has the same amount of backing. Your concept is that because it comes from a religion that it somehow is more absolute or true than any other source, and that's just not true. And if you want to go down that road, then which religion would be able to claim absolute moralities? A religious person has the backings of writings from another religious person. That doesn't translate to "authority".

What does that have to do with my definition of sXe though? And how is it messed up?

jim
03-28-2006, 05:30 PM
I have a reason for believing what I do. That reason is my belief in God. An athiest does not believe God or gods exist; any moral they believe in does not come from anything but thier own mind, or the minds of other humans who influenced them. They can have thier own beliefs about what is good and what is bad, but those beliefs have no spiritual significance, and are only based on emotional or logical premises. Does this make sense?

You say that a Christian cannot be sXe because they do not believe that all drinking is wrong. Then I say that athiests can't be sXe because thier morals are based only in what they know, and they cannot know absolute truth. Any "morals" they have against drinking are invalid because they are really just opinions.

xsecx
03-28-2006, 08:30 PM
I have a reason for believing what I do. That reason is my belief in God. An athiest does not believe God or gods exist; any moral they believe in does not come from anything but thier own mind, or the minds of other humans who influenced them. They can have thier own beliefs about what is good and what is bad, but those beliefs have no spiritual significance, and are only based on emotional or logical premises. Does this make sense?


And yours doesn't come from anything better than what's dictated to you by other people. I'm not really sure what you're arguing. So I'm supposed to believe that morality determined by a persons experiences are somehow less valid than ones dictated to them by religious materials and people? That logic has no place in determining morality?



You say that a Christian cannot be sXe because they do not believe that all drinking is wrong. Then I say that athiests can't be sXe because thier morals are based only in what they know, and they cannot know absolute truth. Any "morals" they have against drinking are invalid because they are really just opinions.

no I'm saying you can't be straight edge if you don't think drinking is wrong. And you can't think drinking is wrong if you're christian. The whole point is that straight edge as a subculture and a movement is extremely clearly anti drinking. Now if you disagree then why do you? What makes you think you can be straight edge and not be against drinking?
Also what makes your version of absolute truth better than my verson of absolute truth? You don't know god. You have faith, but you don't have absolute knowledge. If you did, then everyone would believe as you do. But they don't.

jim
03-28-2006, 09:25 PM
(So I'm supposed to believe) That logic has no place in determining morality?
Aristotle taught that there were three means of persuasion. These are logos, or logical; pathos, or emotional; and ethos, or ethical. Morals fall under an ethical form of persuasion. They deal with good and evil, and beliefs of a more spiritual nature. I claim that Athiests cannot argue for thier beliefs with moral arguments because they deny the existance of a god to base thier spiritual beliefs in. Logic is an entireley different catagory.

So I'm supposed to believe that morality determined by a persons experiences are somehow less valid than ones dictated to them by religious materials and people?
I would consider them beliefs rather than morals. Beliefs that a person develops from personal experience are most often either emotional or logical. If you see someone you love become an alcoholic, and decide not to drink based on that, then that is a predominatley emotional argument for your belief that drinking is wrong. If you don't drink because you know it will cause problems for you (work problems, health problems, relationship problems, etc.) then that is a belief based on a logical argument. If I were to not drink because I believed that God did not want me to, it would be a belief based on an ethical argument, and therefore a moral. These are just a few examples of how these types of arguments work to form beliefs that can cause a person to become straight edge, and are by no means comprehensive.

Here's the tricky part.
no I'm saying you can't be straight edge if you don't think drinking is wrong. And you can't think drinking is wrong if you're christian.
I do think drinking is wrong (in a non-ethical way), and I am a Christian. My arguments for my beliefs against drinking are both emotional and logical. Christianity does not condemn drinking, and therefore Christians do not have to. Jesus did drink wine, but he did not have the same logical and emotional considerations I do. I do not think it was a sin for Jesus to drink.


Also what makes your version of absolute truth better than my verson of absolute truth? You don't know god. You have faith, but you don't have absolute knowledge. If you did, then everyone would believe as you do. But they don't.
I didn't think athiests had an absolute truth. How can you be sure of anything when all you have to rely on are human experiences? I have faith in God. That means that I can trust that he is there and that he is an eternal source of good and truth. Anything opposed to that is evil. I don't have absolute knowledge, but I know that absolute truth exists. I don't know it because I'm not perfect. My job as a Christian is to interpret that truth. If I had absolute knowledge, I would not need faith, and you're right, everyone would believe as I did.

I'm sorry if I've sounded pushy, I'm only trying to express my beliefs. I don't mean to sound disrespectful.

SgtD
03-28-2006, 11:05 PM
Dusty, you guys should make a new shirt design which says "jesus was anti-edge" i'd buy one

jim
03-28-2006, 11:30 PM
Dusty, you guys should make a new shirt design which says "jesus was anti-edge" i'd buy one
Maybe non-edge. I don't think Jesus would be against abstaining from sex, drugs, tobacco and alcohol.

SgtD
03-29-2006, 12:04 AM
Maybe non-edge. I don't think Jesus would be against abstaining from sex, drugs, tobacco and alcohol.
sex has no relation to sxe.

jesus encouraged people to drink, and made them drink.

SgtD
03-29-2006, 12:27 AM
Here's the tricky part.
I do think drinking is wrong (in a non-ethical way), and I am a Christian. My arguments for my beliefs against drinking are both emotional and logical. Christianity does not condemn drinking, and therefore Christians do not have to. Jesus did drink wine, but he did not have the same logical and emotional considerations I do. I do not think it was a sin for Jesus to drink.
here's the tricky part. you just think you are better than god. that's the whole point.

jim
03-29-2006, 12:32 AM
sex has no relation to sxe.

jesus encouraged people to drink, and made them drink.

I heard that staying away from promiscuous sex was a large part of sXe, but then again I also heard that I'm not sXe, so how much could I know?

If Jesus, in thier time and culture, telling his disciples to drink the wine that they were already drinking as a remembrance of him at the last supper before he was to be crucified qualifies Jesus as being opposed to a lifestyle that parallels the lifestyle his teachings would have us embrace, then I guess you can call him anti-edge.

SgtD
03-29-2006, 01:29 AM
I heard that staying away from promiscuous sex was a large part of sXe, but then again I also heard that I'm not sXe, so how much could I know?

you are clearly misinformed.


If Jesus, in thier time and culture, telling his disciples to drink the wine that they were already drinking as a remembrance of him at the last supper before he was to be crucified qualifies Jesus as being opposed to a lifestyle that parallels the lifestyle his teachings would have us embrace, then I guess you can call him anti-edge.
his teachings aren't parallel to straight edge at all though!

straightXed
03-29-2006, 07:07 AM
Aristotle taught that there were three means of persuasion. These are logos, or logical; pathos, or emotional; and ethos, or ethical. Morals fall under an ethical form of persuasion. They deal with good and evil, and beliefs of a more spiritual nature. I claim that Athiests cannot argue for thier beliefs with moral arguments because they deny the existance of a god to base thier spiritual beliefs in. Logic is an entireley different catagory.

Ethos meant character, ethikos refered to ethical.

why do you need to believe in gods to have beliefs of wrong and right, i mean if you are an athiest its because you think its right so it negates your idea straight away. Just because an athiest doesn't act out of fear of eternal damnation doesn't mean they can't act. I mean medical science and past experiences don't equate to god, why can't that mold ethical thoughts of right and wrong?


I would consider them beliefs rather than morals. Beliefs that a person develops from personal experience are most often either emotional or logical. If you see someone you love become an alcoholic, and decide not to drink based on that, then that is a predominatley emotional argument for your belief that drinking is wrong. If you don't drink because you know it will cause problems for you (work problems, health problems, relationship problems, etc.) then that is a belief based on a logical argument. If I were to not drink because I believed that God did not want me to, it would be a belief based on an ethical argument, and therefore a moral. These are just a few examples of how these types of arguments work to form beliefs that can cause a person to become straight edge, and are by no means comprehensive.

But an athiest can believe things are morally wrong, morals aren't restricted to god and moral philoshophy is found at the base of biology, ecology, social science, law, politics etc. At that base level its about a rather logical process called meta-ethics, its at this point you could argue that nothing is ever right or wrong and its all relative to your individual, cultural or historical viewpoint - so it would be possible for you to say your gods wishes for you are not right or wrong but this would negate your religion. Of course instead of being realtive it could be argued that its absolute. To say its absolute is like the ideas of god creating the universe where god dictates right and wrong or philisophical naturalism where there is no bend in the idea that humanity is a natural phenomena that evolved naturally and where "good and evil are regarded as labels placed on how well individual behaviour conforms to societal expectations, and is the result of our psychology and socialization."

From this we have different roots of ethics or morals, absolutists will say that war, dictatorship and child abuse are inherently immoral regardless of intent. Of course when its moral relativism is in place its not necessary to reflect absoloute truths and there is in fact no need to contend opposing moral beliefs as they have no truth or value. It all becomes rather subjective and is still that there are no single source by which to judge moral truths and that it all comes down to societal convention and personal preference. Now obviously you being a christian are an absoloutist and like most christians its a graded absoloutism. Meaning that above all you serve a duty to god above your duty to fellow humans - now whilst that works fine in a moral heirachy to some it may seem etically unsound especially when they have no belief in your god but the point i'd like to make is that regarless of the morals being relative or absolute the morals dictated by god can only be absoloute yet for a moral to be absoloute it doesn't need to be dictated by god. For instance the human rights theory is a form of moral absoloutism based on human nature and its essence.

So its possible for a non drinking moral to be had both relatively and absoloutely, the reasons behind the moral are more than likely going to be relative in the first instance but as straight edge has become an established entity it is similar to the absoloute idea of human rights in which whilst the abstinance begins as a personal and relative choice you then claim to be a part of a more absoloute label in which you can't choose to change its inherent structure. I.e the idea of it being inherently tied to hardcore.


Here's the tricky part.
I do think drinking is wrong (in a non-ethical way), and I am a Christian. My arguments for my beliefs against drinking are both emotional and logical. Christianity does not condemn drinking, and therefore Christians do not have to. Jesus did drink wine, but he did not have the same logical and emotional considerations I do. I do not think it was a sin for Jesus to drink.

I don't think its a sin for jesus to drink either, in fact its quite clear that christianity is not against drinking but however you say that god has told you to not drink - thats a matter of your belief i don't really see how you have communicated with god but thats irrelevent. The point is you are no posting at a site which supports the condemnation of drinking so if christianity does not condemn drinking and you are a christian why are you at a site which catagorically states that its against drinking alcohol and believes it to be wrong?





I didn't think athiests had an absolute truth. How can you be sure of anything when all you have to rely on are human experiences? I have faith in God. That means that I can trust that he is there and that he is an eternal source of good and truth.

But how is god any more substantial, its based on faith in other words a hope that he is right or a hope that he will guide you. Your faith is only based on human experiences, you trust he is there based only on experiences of other humans. It would seem that you are missing the point that the truth you hold is only relative within your absoloute moral framework, you are blinded to see that the idea of atheism and that its based on truths that are relative to itself, athiests aren't tied to one belief structure but the basis they have for denying the existance of god . There is no absoloute truth that god exists thus it cannot be anymore absoloute than a truth that says otherwise. What you have is faith based on human experiences not an absoloute truth.


Anything opposed to that is evil. I don't have absolute knowledge, but I know that absolute truth exists.

No you don't you just have faith that it does.


I don't know it because I'm not perfect. My job as a Christian is to interpret that truth. If I had absolute knowledge, I would not need faith, and you're right, everyone would believe as I did.

If everyone knew that to be an absoloute truth everyone would believe it though but you do not know it to be absoloute truth at all.

jim
03-29-2006, 07:23 AM
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap.
Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
How is this so far from straight edge?

straightXed
03-29-2006, 07:38 AM
How is this so far from straight edge?

It doesn't mention hardcore, the reasons straightedge came around were different and were a reaction to a nihilistic attitude already present in the punk scene, it also reacted to the youthful immpresionism that invokes peer pressure.

Sex has nothing to do with straightedge and in fact we would need to define exactly what god meant as sexual immorality in order to make further discourse. But let it be said the idea of sex outside of marriage being a sin is hugely wrong for me and i'm sure many others hence why they engage in the activity.

There are fits of rage, anger and hatred present in hardcore music, this is a sin.

Straightedge doesn't make comment on eating meat, however perhaps if christianity says its not good christians should stop eating meat?

Straight edge and christianity are vastly different and to fit one to the other is a futile process.

jim
03-29-2006, 07:52 AM
Ethos meant character, ethikos refered to ethical.
The word ethical comes from the greek word ethikos. I'm talking about Aristotle's Rhetoric. You obviously don't understand that all the arguments you are making have nothing to do with any stance you have taken to actual good and evil. In a world without spiritual authority, there is no good and evil. Killing a person would not be evil because it would not be going against any established good. It may be wrong on a logical basis that one person doesn't have the right to take another's life, or wrong based on an emotional argument that said murder victim was emotionally attatched to others, but an athiest cannot claim to have beliefs that are based on the spiritual good and evil.

but however you say that god has told you to not drink - thats a matter of your belief i don't really see how you have communicated with god but thats irrelevent.I'm not saying that God has told me to not drink. I'm saying that I have decided not to drink on a purely logical and emotional basis. There is no morality involved in that.

But an athiest can believe things are morally wrong,No, an athiest can believe that things are logically wrong, or are wrong because they offend emotionally, but those arguments are not moral arguments.

i mean if you are an athiest its because you think its right so it negates your idea straight away.Not at all. If you are an athiest, it is not because you believe it is right spiritually to be so. It is only because you are logically convinced that it is true. I still think that athiesm is incredibly silly. Most athiests deny that thier beliefs are based on faith, but no one has actually ever proven that no god exists. I have more respect for agnostics who understand that if It could actually be proven that God did not exist, we would all be athiests.

No you don't you just have faith that it does.
:) I know because I have faith

jim
03-29-2006, 08:04 AM
It doesn't mention hardcore
This is a much better argument against the combatibility of sXe and Christianity. The "Jesus drank" thing doesn't hold up.

Straightedge doesn't make comment on eating meat, however perhaps if christianity says its not good christians should stop eating meat? The Bible says that it is good not to, it doesn't say it's wrong to eat meat.

straightXed
03-29-2006, 08:29 AM
The word ethical comes from the greek word ethikos. I'm talking about Aristotle's Rhetoric.

Except you clearly state that ethos refered to ethical when infact it refers to charcater and is the greek for character. Think before you post.



You obviously don't understand that all the arguments you are making have nothing to do with any stance you have taken to actual good and evil. In a world without spiritual authority, there is no good and evil.

Yers there is its just not spiritual but well done for ingnoring that point.



Killing a person would not be evil because it would not be going against any established good.

Yes it would be going against established good made by either societal expectations, such as human right infringement and law or by a personal more subjective slant. Again well done for ignoring that.


It may be wrong on a logical basis that one person doesn't have the right to take another's life, or wrong based on an emotional argument that said murder victim was emotionally attatched to others, but an athiest cannot claim to have beliefs that are based on the spiritual good and evil.

Good and evil isn't based only in spirituality, what you are caliming is that ethical good and evil are only apparent to christians or religious folk which is short sighted. And prooves you haven't understood that there are different ways to arrive at ethics and morals. Again, well done for be ignorant to this.



I'm not saying that God has told me to not drink. I'm saying that I have decided not to drink on a purely logical and emotional basis. There is no morality involved in that.

Are you telling me you can't think its morally wrong to have alcohol (with its major negative reprecussions and and influence in drink driving and drunken and domestic violence) as a legal part of society?



No, an athiest can believe that things are logically wrong, or are wrong because they offend emotionally, but those arguments are not moral arguments.

Thats because you don't know what morals an athiest has, are you saying i have no morals because i don't believe there is a god?


Not at all. If you are an athiest, it is not because you believe it is right spiritually to be so. flawed because morals don't have to resemble spirituality.


It is only because you are logically convinced that it is true. I still think that athiesm is incredibly silly.

No, you need to understand that a moral can equate to a personal principle. And its hardly supprising that a guy blinded by his own faith things athiesm is silly especially when he can't even understand that morals and ethics live outside of spirituality.


Most athiests deny that thier beliefs are based on faith, but no one has actually ever proven that no god exists.

Well that would depend on your definition of faith, for instance "Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing" is faith, however the idea that you have faith in something that is not proven shows something else, that whilst an athiest will state there is no god to believe you will state there is and firther more go on to follow a large structured religion based on that. your faith is the theological virtue defined as secure belief in god and a trusting acceptance of god's will. So when both an athiest and a christian are basing their beliefs on trust and confidence in the unknown how can an athiest be without faith? Its just placed elsewhere.



I have more respect for agnostics who understand that if It could actually be proven that God did not exist, we would all be athiests.

Well personally i see the evidence stacked slightly more in the favour of athiests myself but i tend not to trouble a great deal of my time deliberating over something which will be revealed on my death. I'm not going to spend my live in fear of something that is so unsure and based on such shoddy ideas because i think that the idea of christianity is somewhat morally wrong at least in todays world.


:) I know because I have faith

well done for missing all the points raised in my post but at least you agree you don't have an absoloute truth because faith in one doesn't constitute it being absoloute.

straightXed
03-29-2006, 08:32 AM
This is a much better argument against the combatibility of sXe and Christianity. The "Jesus drank" thing doesn't hold up.

it does hold up if you are saying that jesus is wrong and that you shouldn't drink.


The Bible says that it is good not to, it doesn't say it's wrong to eat meat.

The bible says you should be good, if this is a description of a good act why aren't you doing it? But it still has nothing to do with being straightedge.

And thanks again for being incomplete in your responses.

stepinsideissue
03-30-2006, 12:45 PM
lol...there's a difference between a Christian telling a Christian how to live his/her life and a fuckin non-christian telling a christian how he/she should live life.

but no, i'm not an authoritarian either, and if you are gonna continue to argue with me, you will not break new ground. it's a lost cause. i'll just leave this forum, never to bother you guys again. However, i will say that this forum is extremely un-helpful. lol...what a crock of shit. to those in here who have been helpful, thank you. its sXe assholes that discourage people in society to go edge for fear they might be rejected and made fun of.


Who the fuck are you as a christian to tell another christian how to live thier life. There is NO diffrence.

xdoylex
03-30-2006, 12:54 PM
Being Christian and edge is a possibility. Especially if straight edge for you is a choice made for one's self and not a choice made for everyone else in the world.

xsecx
03-30-2006, 01:03 PM
Being Christian and edge is a possibility. Especially if straight edge for you is a choice made for one's self and not a choice made for everyone else in the world.

nope. and nope. Unless you want to explain to me how straight edge talks about drinking in moderation being a good idea. Lyrics, zines, etc. That the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone didn't drink. Straight edge is an extreme stance. It's something that happens when someone feels strongly about a subject. If you didn't you wouldn't allign yourself with a group that is so blatantly and unapologetically anti-alcohol, tobacco and drugs.

xdoylex
03-31-2006, 06:52 AM
nope. and nope. Unless you want to explain to me how straight edge talks about drinking in moderation being a good idea. Lyrics, zines, etc. That the world wouldn't be a better place if everyone didn't drink. Straight edge is an extreme stance. It's something that happens when someone feels strongly about a subject. If you didn't you wouldn't allign yourself with a group that is so blatantly and unapologetically anti-alcohol, tobacco and drugs.


I do take a stand on those things. I don't hang out with people if they make fucked up choices around me and I tell them exactly what i think about that shit. Especially, lately, I've seen alot of people who used to be edge sell out and start smoking pot and stupid shit like that just because the scene isn't has active locally any more because we had a couple venues close down.

sXe is still alive and kicking in me because I know what I stand for. And you can bet your ass i dont apologize for it.

xsecx
03-31-2006, 07:51 AM
I do take a stand on those things. I don't hang out with people if they make fucked up choices around me and I tell them exactly what i think about that shit. Especially, lately, I've seen alot of people who used to be edge sell out and start smoking pot and stupid shit like that just because the scene isn't has active locally any more because we had a couple venues close down.

sXe is still alive and kicking in me because I know what I stand for. And you can bet your ass i dont apologize for it.

so you think jesus was wrong and you'd take a stand against him about it?

xriseupx
04-18-2006, 08:44 PM
If you want to get technical about this issue of Christ drinking wine, there are a few things you might want to consider...
Red wine was the only chosen drink of Christ or any of His disciples... The alcohol content of this wine was dramatically lower than the content of today's wine, and... Physiologically speaking, very moderate wine drinking is actually quite healthy. It provides lots of antioxidants to your body, and is very healthy for your heart. It's also a very cleansing drink.
Now, for me... I cannot safely drink any type of wine. My personality doesn't mix with it -- but this whole, "Jesus drank wine" as some form of contradiction or life choice that does not coincide with sXe lifestyle is actually not founded in anything factual...
Now, to finish this topic... Most hardcore sXe people seem to have a problem with Christians due to Christians using God as some crutch in their lives... Like a drug -- to say that in times of stress or less, Christians weakly rely on God -- the more the stress, the more God they need -- just like a drug, thus... Fucking your head up.
This makes sense -- and is actually true in a lot of cases, but a *true* Christian isn't like this.
A true Christian loves and embraces God no matter the circumstances, and does not use God as some crutch.

You can be a Straightedge Christian...

xsecx
04-18-2006, 09:48 PM
If you want to get technical about this issue of Christ drinking wine, there are a few things you might want to consider...
Red wine was the only chosen drink of Christ or any of His disciples... The alcohol content of this wine was dramatically lower than the content of today's wine, and... Physiologically speaking, very moderate wine drinking is actually quite healthy. It provides lots of antioxidants to your body, and is very healthy for your heart. It's also a very cleansing drink.
Now, for me... I cannot safely drink any type of wine. My personality doesn't mix with it -- but this whole, "Jesus drank wine" as some form of contradiction or life choice that does not coincide with sXe lifestyle is actually not founded in anything factual...


your statement is wrong. John the baptist didn't drink alcohol. Now, how is jesus drinking wine and someone who's straight edge who believes that drinking wine isn't contradictory? You're still saying your god is wrong.



Now, to finish this topic... Most hardcore sXe people seem to have a problem with Christians due to Christians using God as some crutch in their lives... Like a drug -- to say that in times of stress or less, Christians weakly rely on God -- the more the stress, the more God they need -- just like a drug, thus... Fucking your head up.
This makes sense -- and is actually true in a lot of cases, but a *true* Christian isn't like this.
A true Christian loves and embraces God no matter the circumstances, and does not use God as some crutch.

You can be a Straightedge Christian...

A true christian also wouldn't disagree with god or think they can be right about something and god can be wrong.

Raeus
04-19-2006, 08:01 AM
Alright, Iíll totally level with all of you. I havenít read all of the posts. I got bored after the first six pages, and had many thoughts of my own. Iíve read the last several to make sure the argument hasnít changed, and it doesnít appear to have done so. So hereís me, and this is what I think.

Iím SxE. Iím published in my views on this, and though itís only a college newspaper, my community knows where I stand. Iím much hated for it, as my community is rumored to have the second highest alcohol consumption per capita in the world. It may not be true, but that rumor does float around, and the community is terrible for it. AnywaysÖ

Iím not a Christian. I believe in a god and I donít hold with religions. Thatís a bookís worth of explanations itself. However, in my opinion, itís perfectly logical that one could be Christian and Straight Edge. Iíve read what I think is the working argument, and I know this is already making you all jump up and down, but give me a few minutes before you jump all over me and hear me out.

Ok, so what Iíve seen as the base argument is that one cannot follow Jesus (for he imbibed alcohol, though it never directly says that either, but that is whatís being assumed) and be SxE. But because one follows someone, must they in turn be responsible for all of that personís shortcomings? Must they be a direct translation of that person? Iíd hope not, because as much as Iíve personally tried in my foolish youth, Iíve learned nothing if not that becoming someone else totally is impossible.

And these people arenít trying. Being Christian does not mean trying to become Christ. That would be nuts. My understanding is of course limited, so Iíll admit it, I could be wrong. But this is what I see, and this is how I live SxE.

While being Straight Edge has a lot to do with ideas, itís actions that count. As far as SxE and religion go, so long as oneís religious practice does not cause them to violate the ideals of Straight Edge, they are in fact both. Now, I realize that some Christianity does require the consumption of wine in communion and The Lordís Supper and that stuff, and that wouldnít be acceptable. One would have to choose. If I were in that position, Iíd seriously question my faith. So I see where those that say no are coming from, and that much makes sense.

However, Iím quite bothered by the fact that several of the previously cited group infer that to be Straight Edge, one must hate and disrespect non-members. That is bogus. To be Straight Edge is to live and think a certain way, regardless of those around you, and to let your community know where you stand, as well as advocate the position you hold. Iíve seen nothing that tells me to hate others. I realize that SxE isnít about acceptance either, and Iíve never said it was. I donít accept what others do into my own life, but I canít change them, and I canít hate them for it. People are human, a handicap we ALL share, and everyone has their vices.

An example in my life would be my mentor. He is one of the wisest men Iíve ever known, and I esteem him beyond most men living. To my deep sorrow, he drinks on slight occasion, and while it occurs less times in a year than I have fingers on my hands, it still bothers me. Iím not defending him, and I disagree with what he does. He knows that, and respects me for my belief. I respect him enough to leave him to his. I see him as my role model, though I omit that part of his life from mine. Iím still SxE; I still hold to my beliefs, practice them, and advocate them to my community. I keep my body pure, to the point of obsession. That, alas, in yet another story, and I digress.

Sadly, not all of my friends follow me in my SxE beliefs. I still love them. I donít like what they do, and they know that, but I donít hate them for it. I abstain, keep myself pure, and practice and advocate my beliefs. I say this with great fervor, not because I believe that SxE is about acceptance, but because I donít believe the word hardcore equals hate or disrespect. I say this because of the hatred Iíve received from my family and community, the lack of respect for our cause because of the hatred of SxE members in my town, and in respect for the Buddhist monks that really define hardcore.

There, Iím done. Say what you like.

straightXed
04-19-2006, 08:11 AM
If you want to get technical about this issue of Christ drinking wine, there are a few things you might want to consider...
Red wine was the only chosen drink of Christ or any of His disciples... The alcohol content of this wine was dramatically lower than the content of today's wine, and... Physiologically speaking, very moderate wine drinking is actually quite healthy. It provides lots of antioxidants to your body, and is very healthy for your heart. It's also a very cleansing drink.

It doesn't matter that wine can provide antioxidants. There are lots of non alcoholic items that provide the same antioxidants and give the same benifit to the human heart, what does matter is that it is an alcoholic drink that is drank recreationally and thus goes completely against what straightedge stands for.

So are you saying a lower ammount of alcohol is ok? What volume of alcohol is ok?

The fact that jesus is saying wine is ok and straightedge says its really not ok at all does tend to put you in a position of either saying jesus is wrong or trying to claim straightedge and drink wine. But then you get on to all the other reasons why strtaightedge and christianity don't fit.


Now, for me... I cannot safely drink any type of wine. My personality doesn't mix with it -- but this whole, "Jesus drank wine" as some form of contradiction or life choice that does not coincide with sXe lifestyle is actually not founded in anything factual...

So you are saying the bible isn't factual, thats fine i agree but a christian believes jesus and his actions to be right and true, where as a straightedge kid believes the consumption of wine to be wrong so say hello to the contradiction that doesn't coincide. Straightedge kids think jesus's actions are wrong, to claim to be christian there after would mean you are claiming to be christian even though you believe his actions were wrong. It unravels the core premise of the religion.



Now, to finish this topic... Most hardcore sXe people seem to have a problem with Christians due to Christians using God as some crutch in their lives... Like a drug -- to say that in times of stress or less, Christians weakly rely on God -- the more the stress, the more God they need -- just like a drug, thus... Fucking your head up.
This makes sense -- and is actually true in a lot of cases, but a *true* Christian isn't like this.
A true Christian loves and embraces God no matter the circumstances, and does not use God as some crutch.


Well the religion is based on providing a crutch based on its coercive teachings, and they teach you to embrace god fully. This is crutch like and people rely on there faith to see the world in a "better" way, they use the idea of heaven as an incentive to put worth into their life, the teachings of christ give direction to how they should live. They have this ambiguous god to put in place of all the unanswerable questions and to show some kind of psuedo illumination to the fear of the unknown which is comforting and crutch like. It answers the questions it knows you will ask at your most vunerable and gives you an answer which you want to hear, its well designed although a rather archaic control method for todays world. Its not so much weakness as a natural reaction to have these feelings but to allieviate them with religion does make religion crutch like, its designed to do just that and gives you this sense of being on the right and true path. And you can embrace it completely no matter what and its still a crutch, its still a structure that people rely on to resolve equivocal spiritual matters. However i don't believe thats the main problem at all.




You can be a Straightedge Christian...

No, you can't. Jesus drank wine, is jesus wrong?

xsecx
04-19-2006, 08:37 AM
Ok, so what Iíve seen as the base argument is that one cannot follow Jesus (for he imbibed alcohol, though it never directly says that either, but that is whatís being assumed) and be SxE. But because one follows someone, must they in turn be responsible for all of that personís shortcomings? Must they be a direct translation of that person? Iíd hope not, because as much as Iíve personally tried in my foolish youth, Iíve learned nothing if not that becoming someone else totally is impossible.


no that's not the base argument at all. you also just said that jesus had short comings, which he can't if he's divine. The actual base argument is that if you are jesus you can't disagree with or believe/think/act as though you are right and he is wrong.



And these people arenít trying. Being Christian does not mean trying to become Christ. That would be nuts. My understanding is of course limited, so Iíll admit it, I could be wrong. But this is what I see, and this is how I live SxE.


but being christian does mean accepting that jesus was divine and all of his actions were correct, just and should be the basis of all of your thoughts on anything, since he was, well, perfect.



While being Straight Edge has a lot to do with ideas, itís actions that count. As far as SxE and religion go, so long as oneís religious practice does not cause them to violate the ideals of Straight Edge, they are in fact both. Now, I realize that some Christianity does require the consumption of wine in communion and The Lordís Supper and that stuff, and that wouldnít be acceptable. One would have to choose. If I were in that position, Iíd seriously question my faith. So I see where those that say no are coming from, and that much makes sense.


It's not all religion that's the issue. It's one specific one, with one specific set of beliefs that are actually counter straight edge.



However, Iím quite bothered by the fact that several of the previously cited group infer that to be Straight Edge, one must hate and disrespect non-members. That is bogus. To be Straight Edge is to live and think a certain way, regardless of those around you, and to let your community know where you stand, as well as advocate the position you hold. Iíve seen nothing that tells me to hate others. I realize that SxE isnít about acceptance either, and Iíve never said it was. I donít accept what others do into my own life, but I canít change them, and I canít hate them for it. People are human, a handicap we ALL share, and everyone has their vices.


Where did anyone say that "one must hate and disrespect non-members"?

Raeus
04-19-2006, 08:52 AM
Where did anyone say that "one must hate and disrespect non-members"?


No one really said it, but that was the feeling I got from the general posts.

XsecX, I totally understand where you're coming from, but I still feel that this should be about actions. People can say they believe whatever they want, but what people do defines them. What I'm saying is, IF (and I'm not sure this could ever actually work, but it seems logical to me) someone could practice both the ideals of Straight Edge and those of a religion, then they would in fact already be both. I see that Christianity in general has many issues that could make this difficult, and as the leader is suppossed to be perfect, and in the eyes of straight edge Jesus is not, Christianity doesn't fit.

I suppose never really having being Christian (despite growing up in such a home) skews me on this, and I put my mentor in too high of a place, but I've used him as my example. I model my life after most of his, and I respect him very much. But I do not try to be him, and try to be better than he ever was. I learn from his mistakes intsead of having to make them on my own. Isn't that how religion is suppossed to work? Is it not suppossed to guide one's life and make them better people for it? I don't really know. Christianity is difficult, and I've read that article in the other post. I guess my only issue comes in the practice of one's worship, and not in the ideas. This may seem ridiculous, acting without a solid base of ideas beneath you, but people do it every day, and those religious are certainly not exceptions.

xsecx
04-19-2006, 09:01 AM
No one really said it, but that was the feeling I got from the general posts.

ok. which general posts?



XsecX, I totally understand where you're coming from, but I still feel that this should be about actions. People can say they believe whatever they want, but what people do defines them. What I'm saying is, IF (and I'm not sure this could ever actually work, but it seems logical to me) someone could practice both the ideals of Straight Edge and those of a religion, then they would in fact already be both. I see that Christianity in general has many issues that could make this difficult, and as the leader is suppossed to be perfect, and in the eyes of straight edge Jesus is not, Christianity doesn't fit.


Christianity has issues that make it impossible. You can't say you believe that jesus is perfect and god but then say that you disagree with him. Jesus isn't the leader, he's god. You're trying to look at it as jesus just being a man, which if you're christian you don't believe.



I suppose never really having being Christian (despite growing up in such a home) skews me on this, and I put my mentor in too high of a place, but I've used him as my example. I model my life after most of his, and I respect him very much. But I do not try to be him, and try to be better than he ever was. I learn from his mistakes intsead of having to make them on my own. Isn't that how religion is suppossed to work? Is it not suppossed to guide one's life and make them better people for it? I don't really know. Christianity is difficult, and I've read that article in the other post. I guess my only issue comes in the practice of one's worship, and not in the ideas. This may seem ridiculous, acting without a solid base of ideas beneath you, but people do it every day, and those religious are certainly not exceptions.

Your mentor isn't god and doesn't dictate to you what to believe, how to think and how to live your life.

xriseupx
04-19-2006, 09:37 AM
I used to have a really stupid view on what Christianity really was -- for some people, it really is a crutch. Christianity is not a crutch for me -- to live as a true Christian is not an easy thing to do -- you will have your rough times where you rely on God for help -- but God will NOT help those unwilling to help themselves. Those who think that God is a cureall are shunned by God, and those that are not thankful in the good times of their lives are not blessed by God.
A relationship with God is through thick and thin, regardless of your circumstances.
I don't care if you're Christian or not... It doesn't matter -- I've been a part of every faith under the sun, and there was a time that I was atheist. During this time, I was also a fucking druggie... So, yea... When I became Christian, things started changing immensely in my life, and it wasn't because I was relying on God as some crutch. To say that Christianity is merely a crutch is a completely biased view on what Christianity really is, based on how far too many people treat it. In all honesty, I think MOST Christians miss the point of the faith itself.
The faith itself is not MEANT to be an organized religion -- true Christianity is not about religion, it's about relationship.
Now, I used to be into metal, I got out of that and got a lot more into hardcore... I got involved with the scene, and while some hardcore bands had a strictly "anti-religion" approach, others strayed from the topic of religion and focused and what's really important about the scene, and about edge -- which is a clean lifestyle.
Now, if Christianity led me to a clean lifestyle, then what? I honestly feel that in my constant lust for alternative music and lifestyles, that Christianity led me to the scene, and got me out of the more occultic and drug-based metal that I used to be involved in.
I mean, you can't really argue with that... You can tell me all day long I can't be edge and Christian just because some bands who originally coined "straightedge" had a particularly anti-religious view, but I don't really care.
I'm edge because I used to be an addict, I overcame, and now I'm fucking proud of it. I changed my life in a spiritual sense, and I found something amazing in hardcore and sxe living, so fuck all that.

As far as the wine topic goes... As it was said before, wine was not used for any purpose of intoxication, and the type of wine used IS healthy, not just in providing antioxidants... but it's also extremely good for your heart.
It's HEALTHY. As in, if you do not exceed a small glass of it, it's actually BENEFICIAL to your health. Yes, as in -- it can be a part of clean living.
It's not a part of my clean-living, because I can't have alcohol in my life for any purpose whatsoever. But in the sense that Jesus drank wine, it was perfectly acceptable, and... as I said, healthy. Know your facts about it. Read about it. Red wine imparticular.

I mean, maybe you've got it so deeply ingrained into your mind that I can't be straightedge and christian, but in my life, the two coincide. You can't tell me that because I'm Christian, I can't support the scene and what it's about. Christianity is not some crutch in my life.

Although, I could reverse this, and say that sXe is YOUR religion, and a crutch that you use for empowerment, but that would be completely off-base then, would it not? Ha...

So, no matter your opinion... I am edge... And I am Christian... Some fucking lyrics don't change that.

xriseupx
04-19-2006, 09:52 AM
It doesn't matter that wine can provide antioxidants. There are lots of non alcoholic items that provide the same antioxidants and give the same benifit to the human heart, what does matter is that it is an alcoholic drink that is drank recreationally and thus goes completely against what straightedge stands for.


Yes, alcohol is used recreationally.
Christianity considers recreational use of alcohol a sin. The bible on and on casts down drunkeness -- as a spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical problem. Wrong in every aspect.

The fact is... Jesus did not use wine recreationally. As in, no intoxication whatsoever.
In the sense that Christ consumed wine, as I said, over and over again, it was a healthly practice.
He couldn't just go to the nearest convenience mart and purchase the latest non alcoholic substance with as many health benefits as wine had. VERY VERY moderate wine drinking.
I mean, I understand that edge is completely against any consumption of alcohol whatsoever -- and it is my personal decision not to drink any alcohol, but it's still not wrong that Jesus did. I don't consume anything that might in anyway effect me on a psychoactive level. Again, personal choice. The churches that I go to use grape juice and not wine for communion. I wouldn't partake in communion if I had to drink the wine, because I don't want alcohol to even touch my lips. This is a personal decision for my own reasons, not because "sXe says so".

IT WAS NOT RECREATIONAL. No detrimental effects to health in their extremely moderate consumption.

xsecx
04-19-2006, 10:17 AM
Yes, alcohol is used recreationally.
Christianity considers recreational use of alcohol a sin. The bible on and on casts down drunkeness -- as a spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical problem. Wrong in every aspect.


No christianity considers drunkness a sin, not the recreational use of alcohol. Jesus and his disciples drank alcohol recreationally.



The fact is... Jesus did not use wine recreationally. As in, no intoxication whatsoever.
In the sense that Christ consumed wine, as I said, over and over again, it was a healthly practice.

If it's a healthy practice why are you against it and think it's wrong? And yes, Jesus did drink wine recreationally. If he drank wine, he did in fact reach a level of intoxication, because that's how alcohol effects the body and does so in very small amounts.




He couldn't just go to the nearest convenience mart and purchase the latest non alcoholic substance with as many health benefits as wine had. VERY VERY moderate wine drinking.
I mean, I understand that edge is completely against any consumption of alcohol whatsoever -- and it is my personal decision not to drink any alcohol, but it's still not wrong that Jesus did. I don't consume anything that might in anyway effect me on a psychoactive level. Again, personal choice. The churches that I go to use grape juice and not wine for communion. I wouldn't partake in communion if I had to drink the wine, because I don't want alcohol to even touch my lips. This is a personal decision for my own reasons, not because "sXe says so".


So if you think it's healthy and the right thing to do, why don't you do it? And also are we supposed to believe that jesus turned water to wine for people who were already drunk, he did so for the health reasons?



IT WAS NOT RECREATIONAL. No detrimental effects to health in their extremely moderate consumption.
awesome, so then why don't you do it and why would you allign yourself with a group that is very clear about our beliefs on any level alcohol consumption?

straightXed
04-19-2006, 10:27 AM
Yes, alcohol is used recreationally.
Christianity considers recreational use of alcohol a sin. The bible on and on casts down drunkeness -- as a spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical problem. Wrong in every aspect.

Drunkeness is not necessarily the outcome of recreationally drinking. Drinking wine at the last supper is an example of recreationally drinking wine. Is that a sin?


The fact is... Jesus did not use wine recreationally. As in, no intoxication whatsoever.

Do you understand recreational use? And now you are saying things are fact where as before hand there was no factual evidence. For reference are you resourcing the bible as fact?



In the sense that Christ consumed wine, as I said, over and over again, it was a healthly practice.

Health isn't an issue at all.



He couldn't just go to the nearest convenience mart and purchase the latest non alcoholic substance with as many health benefits as wine had. VERY VERY moderate wine drinking.

An irrelevent issue.


I mean, I understand that edge is completely against any consumption of alcohol whatsoever -- and it is my personal decision not to drink any alcohol, but it's still not wrong that Jesus did.

So as a straightedge person you are completely against the consumption of alcohol yet you follow the example of jesus but you do not see that you thinking that the consumtion of alcohol is wrong is relative to you saying jesus's example is wrong?



I don't consume anything that might in anyway effect me on a psychoactive level. Again, personal choice. The churches that I go to use grape juice and not wine for communion. I wouldn't partake in communion if I had to drink the wine, because I don't want alcohol to even touch my lips. This is a personal decision for my own reasons, not because "sXe says so".

Yeah but no one should adhere to the things that qualify straightedge just because "sxe says so". Sxe people should describe themselves as such because it accurately describes their choices, opinions and reasons. The same should be said with christianity, their are far to many people who claim they are christian but christianity doesn't accurately describe their beliefs at all. A christian that feels so strongly against alcohol is making a definition against the acts of jesus and saying "jesus, i believe your example for me to be wrong". I mean its not even like your just saying you don't drink, by being straightedge you are completely and utterly against alcohol - you don't even want alcohol to touch your lips because you think its so wrong. If thats the case how can you see jesus as a perfect example?


IT WAS NOT RECREATIONAL. No detrimental effects to health in their extremely moderate consumption.

It was recreational, using caps lock won't make your point right:

rec∑re∑a∑tion∑al (rĕk'rē-ā'shə-nəl)
adj.
1. Of or relating to recreation: recreational swimming.
2. Of or relating to the occasional use, asserted not to be addictive, of narcotics: “You can't accept recreational drug use and expect to control the drug problem”

Understand the meaning of what you are debating against first before making rash and bold comments.

xriseupx
04-19-2006, 10:28 AM
You keep on asking, "So then why don't you do it?",
because I have my own fucking reasons. I don't fucking want to -- is that OK with you?
My being Christian does not mean that every action that I take is Christlike. And no, I still don't feel that Christ drinking wine is wrong.
But it's wrong for ME -- because I don't want anything like that in my life.
I don't go, "hey, Jesus drank wine, so lets go drink wine, now".
And if you really think that some miniscule amount of wine is going to give you any form of intoxication whatsoever, you must have never consumed alcohol in all of your days.

As for me, I used to be a drug addict. I'm strictly anti-drug in every sense now, because I learned first hand what drugs do to people. My own experiences.
And from my experience, I don't need to be near anything that even has the potential to alter my state of mind in any way.

"Recreational use" denotes using a substance to achieve some altered state of mind. Again, if you think that extremely miniscule amounts of alcohol alter the state of mind, you must have never consumed alcohol before. It doesn't work that way. It takes a certain amount of alcohol to affect you on a psychological level.

Can you simply not wrap your brain around the concept that I don't do every last thing that Jesus did in the bible? Just because I don't disagree with His consumption of alcohol, I'm not going to drink it myself. Again, because I am a former addict, and I strongly abstain from it. I chose this on my own, not because sXe says not to.
And, ofcourse... I'm not going to go get crucified, either.

xriseupx
04-19-2006, 10:36 AM
Yeah but no one should adhere to the things that qualify straightedge just because "sxe says so". Sxe people should describe themselves as such because it accurately describes their choices, opinions and reasons. The same should be said with christianity, their are far to many people who claim they are christian but christianity doesn't accurately describe their beliefs at all. A christian that feels so strongly against alcohol is making a definition against the acts of jesus and saying "jesus, i believe your example for me to be wrong". I mean its not even like your just saying you don't drink, by being straightedge you are completely and utterly against alcohol - you don't even want alcohol to touch your lips because you think its so wrong. If thats the case how can you see jesus as a perfect example?

sXe describes my choices and reasons for abstinence. There ya go, buddy...

While the bible has a set example, you wouldn't understand what it means to gain inspiration from faith, prayer, and conviction. I am convicted on a personal level not to partake in alcohol.
sXe isn't for everyone. Not every Christian is sXe. Not every Christian should be.
I don't hate the alcoholic -- I hate the choices he makes.
But, like I said, on a personal level, Christ led me in a way that clearly pointed out, "Kiddo, you don't need to be near alcohol. It's not safe for you. Stay FAR away from it."

Soon thereafter, I found something awesome in straightedge living.
Each person has a personal relationship with Christ -- as in each relationship will be unique in its own manner.
You can't use logic and facts to argue with this -- the only way you could understand is through a first hand experience with Him.

So, this argument all boils down to beliefs that I have that coincide -- I am not every Christian. I am me, a Christian, and I am unique in my path. A true Christian leads his own walk, and strives to be what God has in mind for him. And what God has in mind for me is to stay FAR away from alcohol in every sense, even if it can be beneficial to the health, it is unhealthly for me on a personal level.

Can you understand? It's not that hard to understand that.

xsecx
04-19-2006, 10:44 AM
You keep on asking, "So then why don't you do it?",
because I have my own fucking reasons. I don't fucking want to -- is that OK with you?
My being Christian does not mean that every action that I take is Christlike. And no, I still don't feel that Christ drinking wine is wrong.
But it's wrong for ME -- because I don't want anything like that in my life.
I don't go, "hey, Jesus drank wine, so lets go drink wine, now".
And if you really think that some miniscule amount of wine is going to give you any form of intoxication whatsoever, you must have never consumed alcohol in all of your days.


Because you have "your own fucking reasons" that tells that it's wrong. Do you think everyone should drink alcohol and that it's something everyone should do? OR do you believe the world would be a better place if it didn't exist? And it's wrong for YOU because you don't want anything like that in your life? Anything like what? You clearly have never looked into how the body is effected by alcohol if you think it only happens after x number of beers or x number of drinks. It's a cumalitive affect that starts with the first drink, it doesn't just suddenly appear after your 2nd beer.




"Recreational use" denotes using a substance to achieve some altered state of mind. Again, if you think that extremely miniscule amounts of alcohol alter the state of mind, you must have never consumed alcohol before. It doesn't work that way. It takes a certain amount of alcohol to affect you on a psychological level.


no it denotes using a substance for anything other then medical reasons. And what is that amount of alcohol necessary to affect you on a psychological or even a physiological level?





Can you simply not wrap your brain around the concept that I don't do every last thing that Jesus did in the bible? Just because I don't disagree with His consumption of alcohol, I'm not going to drink it myself. Again, because I am a former addict, and I strongly abstain from it. I chose this on my own, not because sXe says not to.
And, ofcourse... I'm not going to go get crucified, either.

Can you simply not wrap your brain around the concept that you're actually saying that you think drinking is wrong in one breath and then in the next breath trying to say "but I don't think jesus was wrong for drinking it" It's an issue with finding fault in the behavior of your own god. It's really not a hard concept to understand, is it?

straightXed
04-19-2006, 11:22 AM
sXe describes my choices and reasons for abstinence. There ya go, buddy...

You are taking this all to personally to see what is being discussed clearly. I suggest going away and taking time to think about what is being said before just flipantly reacting. Whilst it does describe choices it doesn't deal with the issue of contradiction.


While the bible has a set example, you wouldn't understand what it means to gain inspiration from faith, prayer, and conviction. I am convicted on a personal level not to partake in alcohol.

why wouldn't i understand? And personal levels do not tow the line of the christian faith so you are venturing of the subject in hand.



sXe isn't for everyone. Not every Christian is sXe. Not every Christian should be.

No christian should believe jesus to be wrong.


I don't hate the alcoholic -- I hate the choices he makes.
But, like I said, on a personal level, Christ led me in a way that clearly pointed out, "Kiddo, you don't need to be near alcohol. It's not safe for you. Stay FAR away from it."

Quite conveniant that, i guess he also led you to a music scene that fundamentally incites sin and goes against the christian religion. You'll forgive me if i believe it to be a simple case of you trying to justify your life choices in order to continue to fit with christianity, i know its hard to accept when you are faced with a contradiction in your beliefs. If i were you i'd take some time to seriously question where you are at and why you want to cling to certain things but that will probably fal on deaf ears.


Soon thereafter, I found something awesome in straightedge living.
Each person has a personal relationship with Christ -- as in each relationship will be unique in its own manner.
You can't use logic and facts to argue with this -- the only way you could understand is through a first hand experience with Him.

So you agree its illogical. The point is you are simply contradicting jesus and condoning it by claiming that he has personally suggested your actions are his will. There is no argument for you to be right or wrong and anyone could claim other contradictory things to be the word of jesus on a personal level. "jesus told me its ok to do this or that" its all a very weak case and it still negates the accepted word of god, the bible.


So, this argument all boils down to beliefs that I have that coincide -- I am not every Christian. I am me, a Christian, and I am unique in my path. A true Christian leads his own walk, and strives to be what God has in mind for him. And what God has in mind for me is to stay FAR away from alcohol in every sense, even if it can be beneficial to the health, it is unhealthly for me on a personal level.

Can you understand? It's not that hard to understand that.

Wow, your head has really been got at, the argument boils down to you saying now that the bible does not reflect gods will and that essentially you could ignore that book if god tells you its ok too. Seriously, straightedge and hardcore do not fit with christianity, perhaps you are happy to struggle to make it all fit in but it really means you are missing the point of it all. When you are happy to say your abstinance is condoned by god how does he feel about you being part of a scene that is very angry (sin) and speaks out against religion (sacrilegious) and openly contradicts many other facets of your religion. You are trying so hard to make this fit, i want to know why? What would happen if you decided to turn your back on christianity today, would it change a thing, you seem intent to follow whatever path you choose to anyway regardless, you have mastered the justification of things you wish to do that aren't inline with the religion.

Again. we aren't talking about wine having any health value, the fact is wine/alcohol is unhealthy for everyone, thats a straightedge point of view, being straightedge says the consumption of alcohol is wrong, thus it says jesus is wrong in doing so.

Perhaps you'd like to address the rest of the post before moving on instead of just taking snippets, because you are ignoring fundamental facts although i know your head isn't seeing things in facts it would be polite to do so.

xriseupx
04-19-2006, 11:55 AM
You're completely missing the point, as I expected you would.
You wouldn't understand unless you had been in my shoes, firsthand.
I am straightedge.
I am Christian.
The end.

xsecx
04-19-2006, 11:57 AM
You're completely missing the point, as I expected you would.
You wouldn't understand unless you had been in my shoes, firsthand.
I am straightedge.
I am Christian.
The end.

What point? You haven't actually addressed the issue or what people have said to you about it. You're a christian who thinks god is wrong.

xriseupx
04-19-2006, 12:02 PM
Haha, you're still missing the point. It's like there's this big blind spot you're not seeing.
I am straightedge by my choices and my actions, and my reasons.

BTW... I know that the scene is full of anger, and hardcore is an expression of that.
I am human. I am Christian. I am not, however, perfect.
Music is an excellent way to express anger. It works for me. Much better than brutalizing people (for those of you who are hardline)
So what? God acknowledges that we as humans have anger. I will express it through music, and I take part in the scene and love the anger of it. It's a perfect release.

Whatever, dude... I really don't care.
Being straightedge just helped me in my recovery -- it gave me something that was alternative and fitting for me. If it helps, why the fuck not?
Later. I'm done with this argument.

xsecx
04-19-2006, 12:11 PM
Haha, you're still missing the point. It's like there's this big blind spot you're not seeing.
I am straightedge by my choices and my actions, and my reasons.

BTW... I know that the scene is full of anger, and hardcore is an expression of that.
I am human. I am Christian. I am not, however, perfect.
Music is an excellent way to express anger. It works for me. Much better than brutalizing people (for those of you who are hardline)
So what? God acknowledges that we as humans have anger. I will express it through music, and I take part in the scene and love the anger of it. It's a perfect release.

Whatever, dude... I really don't care.
Being straightedge just helped me in my recovery -- it gave me something that was alternative and fitting for me. If it helps, why the fuck not?
Later. I'm done with this argument.

yeah clearly, we're the ones missing the point. Of course, I'm not really sure what your point is, since you keep saying one thing and then say something else that contradicts it. Christianity just simply doesn't belong within straight edge or within hardcore and when people can't actually address the issue that comes up they get frustrated and declare, especially in this case quite quickly, that they're done with the argument.

straightXed
04-19-2006, 12:34 PM
Haha, you're still missing the point. It's like there's this big blind spot you're not seeing.
I am straightedge by my choices and my actions, and my reasons.

no one said it wasn't your choice people are just pointing out that in doing so you are saying jesus is wrong


BTW... I know that the scene is full of anger, and hardcore is an expression of that.
I am human. I am Christian. I am not, however, perfect.
Music is an excellent way to express anger. It works for me. Much better than brutalizing people (for those of you who are hardline)
So what? God acknowledges that we as humans have anger. I will express it through music, and I take part in the scene and love the anger of it. It's a perfect release.

God aslo acknowledges it as a sin and suggests you will go to hell for it, you are actively trying to be part of a load of stuff that negates fundamental points of your religion.


Whatever, dude... I really don't care.

You don't care that you are contradicting yourself continuously by your very lifestyle choices. you don't care that theres a clear and concise argument made and you are happy to be ignorant to it. See i think you do care but you don't like addressing the facts, if you don't care about what is being discussed then why on earth are you posting?



Being straightedge just helped me in my recovery -- it gave me something that was alternative and fitting for me. If it helps, why the fuck not?
Later. I'm done with this argument.

Well people have continually posted "why the fuck not" yet you choose now to answer the question, and the whole thread is the reasons and answers to the question. Thanks for your input hopefully it will at least get you to look at your religion and beliefs a little more critically.

xriseupx
04-19-2006, 09:08 PM
no one said it wasn't your choice people are just pointing out that in doing so you are saying jesus is wrong
Incorrect. In your perception of sXe, it's wrong. In my lifestyle, I choose not to partake in alcohol... Not good for me. Something I strongly abstain from.
And actually... The bible doesn't mention Christ Himself drinking wine -- he handed it to his disciples at the last supper to represent Him. *shrug*





God aslo acknowledges it as a sin and suggests you will go to hell for it, you are actively trying to be part of a load of stuff that negates fundamental points of your religion.

Actually, you are COMPLETELY wrong about this concept. WE ALL fall short of the glory of God, and only by faith in Christ do we enter the kingdom of God. After salvation, we are still sinners -- we are meant to strive to be Christlike, not perfect -- because it is impossible for a mere human (as in human... with a human soul, don't throw the "jesus was a human" shit in my face, either). You do not go to hell for your sins, you "go to hell" for your decision to deny Christ and what He lived for, and to deny that He was the son of God.
I am Christian. I accepted Christ. I am a sinner. I will not go to hell for my sins -- I will be convicted for them otherwise.
[/QUOTE]



You don't care that you are contradicting yourself continuously by your very lifestyle choices. you don't care that theres a clear and concise argument made and you are happy to be ignorant to it. See i think you do care but you don't like addressing the facts, if you don't care about what is being discussed then why on earth are you posting?


No, the way I live my life actually is in complete agreeance with sXe lifestyle -- my being Christian doesn't negate that, even though you feel it does... You don't have a very clear understanding of Christianity. A very, very obscure understanding. (Your immediate reaction is this = "you don't have a clear understanding of sXe living", but actually I do... I see where you are coming from, but you're not listening to what I'm really saying...)




Well people have continually posted "why the fuck not" yet you choose now to answer the question, and the whole thread is the reasons and answers to the question. Thanks for your input hopefully it will at least get you to look at your religion and beliefs a little more critically.


I used to look at Christianity very critically, as I moved on to other faiths, (mostly occult), and then just decided that I didn't believe in God anymore.
Once I TRULY accepted Christ and began to have a REAL understanding of what He stood for, that's when things started becoming apparent to me. My experiences in life, seeing His work in my own life, is what makes me Christian.
My shortcomings are what make me human. My anger, my rage -- whatever the fuck it is -- I am imperfect, and I know it. And maybe being sXe has some sinful aspect to it -- SO THE FUCK WHAT? Did I ever ONCE say I was PERFECT? Fuck no. I'm not perfect. No one who is not of divine spirit is capable of that (i.e. Christ being the only one with a divine spirit, the human imbodiment of God)
But I can tell you one fucking thing, though. It's better for me to be sXe than for me to be a fucking druggie like I used to be. And if loving hardcore and being a part of the scene -- anger, rage and all, is in a manner sinful, so be it. But atleast I'm fucking healthy nowadays, and I actually enjoy life and love myself.

How can you argue with that? sXe lifestyle did a lot of great things for me. The scene gave me something to be a part of that was not what everyone else was doing -- an outlet for me instead of drugs. Don't you think God would rather me be expressing my blind rage at a hardcore show than putting meth up my nose?

Don't you get it?

mouseman004
04-19-2006, 10:01 PM
This debate has been going on for months and nothing has been changed except for some angry or offended people. You seem to feel insanely strong about this, if thats the case you dont need others to agree with you. If you think you can be christian and straight edge, then do it. You dont need approval from anybody. If people disagree thats fine, disagreements are a part of life and sometimes they will never be solved but dont feel like you have to convince everybody otherwise.

atXdawnXweXburn
04-19-2006, 10:05 PM
here is a great idea.

LET THE TOPIC DIE!

nobody is knocking christianity, theyre just pointing out WHY you cant be christian and sXe.

get the fuck over it.

mouseman004
04-19-2006, 10:08 PM
here is a great idea.

LET THE TOPIC DIE!

nobody is knocking christianity, theyre just pointing out WHY you cant be christian and sXe.

get the fuck over it.

To be fair though, there are two sides that would have to both let it die.

xriseupx
04-19-2006, 10:34 PM
I'm perfectly willing to let it die...

Agree?