Caffeine.....

[A7X_KICKS_ASS]

is it considered a drug and are any of you against it?
I can see drinking a coke or somthing every once and a while.
but some people take the pills and thats what pisses me off. and I didnt put this in the diet section cause it has nothing to do with vegan.

[xunitex]

i personally do not use caffine, some people think of it as a drug some don't, i don't like it cause it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, also i think of it as a drug as people do rely on it

[xsecx]

is it considered a drug and are any of you against it?
I can see drinking a coke or somthing every once and a while.
but some people take the pills and thats what pisses me off. and I didnt put this in the diet section cause it has nothing to do with vegan.
caffeine is a drug. It's a drug that most people abuse and an amazing amount are addicted to.

[Sean The Red]

What I do, and which I obviously think the best thing to do is to avoid it where you can, but not to get up in arms over the issue, there are bigger issues to deal with on a day to day basis, than if something contains caffine. For example, if you drink a 12oz. soft drink a couple times a week, it will not harm your body, in the same way that doing speed a couple times a week will. I think a better way to approach it, is to just be aware of the choices you make, and be sure that you are not consuming enough to harm yourself. Even cyanide is safe, if the portion is small enough.

[xvunderx]

What I do, and which I obviously think the best thing to do is to avoid it where you can, but not to get up in arms over the issue, there are bigger issues to deal with on a day to day basis, than if something contains caffine. For example, if you drink a 12oz. soft drink a couple times a week, it will not harm your body, in the same way that doing speed a couple times a week will. I think a better way to approach it, is to just be aware of the choices you make, and be sure that you are not consuming enough to harm yourself. Even cyanide is safe, if the portion is small enough.

Same can be said about alcohol. If a person is edge, and there for claiming a strong stance against drugs. then thats accross the board. caffiene is a drug the same as alcohol. if you preach moderation, thats cool, but to preach abstenence and not follow it through with caffine is pure hypocrisy

[xgregx]

I don't have caffiene

[Pitbull]

Caff is my one weak point. I don't drink coffee, but what programmer can live without Mountain Dew =)

Viv, your avatar looks amazing against the black background btw.....

[xvunderx]

Caff is my one weak point. I don't drink coffee, but what programmer can live without Mountain Dew =)

Viv, your avatar looks amazing against the black background btw.....

Thanks, I had to change it when the boards did, but I got to update my hair color too so it's all good.! ( ^ u ^ )

I have to ask though. Why is alcohol bad, smoking bad, illegal drugs bad, but caffine ok?

Like so many people say this but it doesn't make sence to me.

[sabresnmets]

oh man another caffiene thread!!!

[xvunderx]

oh man another caffiene thread!!!
and you know you love it!

[Pitbull]

well for me like I said it is my weak point, I know it isn't good for me... I guess it just fits in the what is straight edge. Some people say no nothing, some say sex is ok, some say caff is ok and some say a poison past is ok as long as you know longer live it, some even say using steroids is ok. For me, I don't smoke, drink or do drugs for me. In my eyes, that is SxE for me.

[xvunderx]

well for me like I said it is my weak point, I know it isn't good for me... I guess it just fits in the what is straight edge. Some people say no nothing, some say sex is ok, some say caff is ok and some say a poison past is ok as long as you know longer live it, some even say using steroids is ok. For me, I don't smoke, drink or do drugs for me. In my eyes, that is SxE for me.

so sXe has nothing to do with being against drugs for you?

[xsecx]

well for me like I said it is my weak point, I know it isn't good for me... I guess it just fits in the what is straight edge. Some people say no nothing, some say sex is ok, some say caff is ok and some say a poison past is ok as long as you know longer live it, some even say using steroids is ok. For me, I don't smoke, drink or do drugs for me. In my eyes, that is SxE for me.
how is caffeine not a drug?

[Pitbull]

I never said that, in fact I said I don't smoke, drink or use drugs, that is straightedge to me. I don't see caff nor sex having anything to do with it. What I wrote above was because you asked why do so many see caff is ok. I would laugh at anyone who used drugs and claimed to be edge.

[Pitbull]

how is caffeine not a drug?

I don't see it as one, just as some don't see roids as one either, personally I do, but thats me. If your going to say drinking caff goes against being edge, then 90% of the kids in the world are edge under false pretense then.

[sabresnmets]

now it starts with an all new person.

[xsecx]

I don't see it as one, just as some don't see roids as one either, personally I do, but thats me. If your going to say drinking caff goes against being edge, then 90% of the kids in the world are edge under false pretense then.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p010247.html

I'm saying people should spend more time looking at why they do the things they do and why they're calling themselves something.

[Pitbull]

now it starts with an all new person.

nahhh.. i'm done with the thread... judge me as they wish. I know where my heart is and do what I do for me. Others peoples judgement of me has no effect on me. If you do what you do for you and only for you, nothing else matters.

[A7X_KICKS_ASS]

well im gonna try and keep myself away from caffine then... i havent had it in a while anyways so its not like im losing anything. i never really considered it a drug.
ill just drink mug rootbeer its caffine free.

[Sean The Red]

Same can be said about alcohol. If a person is edge, and there for claiming a strong stance against drugs. then thats accross the board. caffiene is a drug the same as alcohol. if you preach moderation, thats cool, but to preach abstenence and not follow it through with caffine is pure hypocrisy


I dont think I am being hypocritical at all. I dont preach abstenence, I preach responsibility. The fact that I dont trust my life to the judgement of others, just happens to coincide as preaching abstenence. I know many many people who are able to handle the chemicals they consume, and that is ok with me. I will go out with friends who drink, because I know that even if I were not there, they are responsible enough to not drive drunk.

Now getting back to caffine. While it is lethal if you have too much, I've yet to see somebody addicted to caffine kill themselves with their addiction. I've yet to see them steal for it, I've yet to see them kill for it. These are things that people do as a result of alcohol, cocaine, meth, etc. I'm not straight edge because I think that alcohol is intrinsically evil, but I do believe that the use of it poses a danger to both the user and those around them. It is the behavior that follows that is the problem, not the drug for the sake of being a drug. If people who used caffine were signifigantly violent, or dangerous, I would have a very different position.

as for: "I have to ask though. Why is alcohol bad, smoking bad, illegal drugs bad, but caffine ok?"

I think that idea is the great flaw or misconecption of straight edge. I dont think its about all substances = bad. It seems to me that the point is ts not the substance, it is the behavior. We dont engage in three key behaviors for a reason. For that reason, I thnk that we should avoid all things which we believe have a negative consequence as such. Like I said before, Alcohol isnt a killer, people who use it are killers. It is kinda like the guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people argument, but it is true its own way. Thousands of people carry guns with them on a daily basis, and will never kill anybody, but some people do use guns to kill. I have looked at both situations, and decided I dont even want to get involved. If there were an illegal substance that would let you fly, or increase your and response time to dangerous situations, and had no negative side effects, I would be all over it. Its not substances in general, its how they harm us. I am taking albuterol (with a prescription) right now, which you have to get from a doctor, to help me breathe while I have a bronchial infection. However that doesnt make me a Rush Limbaugh.

These are my personal beliefs, and as such, I will be available for debate on this issue on a 1 - 1 basis, but I have no intention of turning what I think into a circus.

[sabresnmets]

I dont think I am being hypocritical at all. I dont preach abstenence, I preach responsibility. The fact that I dont trust my life to the judgement of others, just happens to coincide as preaching abstenence. I know many many people who are able to handle the chemicals they consume, and that is ok with me. I will go out with friends who drink, because I know that even if I were not there, they are responsible enough to not drive drunk.

Now getting back to caffine. While it is lethal if you have too much, I've yet to see somebody addicted to caffine kill themselves with their addiction. I've yet to see them steal for it, I've yet to see them kill for it. These are things that people do as a result of alcohol, cocaine, meth, etc. I'm not straight edge because I think that alcohol is intrinsically evil, but I do believe that the use of it poses a danger to both the user and those around them. It is the behavior that follows that is the problem, not the drug for the sake of being a drug. If people who used caffine were signifigantly violent, or dangerous, I would have a very different position.

as for: "I have to ask though. Why is alcohol bad, smoking bad, illegal drugs bad, but caffine ok?"

I think that idea is the great flaw or misconecption of straight edge. I dont think its about all substances = bad. It seems to me that the point is ts not the substance, it is the behavior. We dont engage in three key behaviors for a reason. For that reason, I thnk that we should avoid all things which we believe have a negative consequence as such. Like I said before, Alcohol isnt a killer, people who use it are killers. It is kinda like the guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people argument, but it is true its own way. Thousands of people carry guns with them on a daily basis, and will never kill anybody, but some people do use guns to kill. I have looked at both situations, and decided I dont even want to get involved. If there were an illegal substance that would let you fly, or increase your and response time to dangerous situations, and had no negative side effects, I would be all over it. Its not substances in general, its how they harm us. I am taking albuterol (with a prescription) right now, which you have to get from a doctor, to help me breathe while I have a bronchial infection. However that doesnt make me a Rush Limbaugh.

These are my personal beliefs, and as such, I will be available for debate on this issue on a 1 - 1 basis, but I have no intention of turning what I think into a circus.


i like that theory

[flame_still_burns]

i don't do caffeine.

but i am addicted to decaffeinated chai with vanilla soymilk in it.

so i guess i do have some addictions.

vinyl records being the worst.

[xsecx]

nahhh.. i'm done with the thread... judge me as they wish. I know where my heart is and do what I do for me. Others peoples judgement of me has no effect on me. If you do what you do for you and only for you, nothing else matters.
It's not a matter of judgement it's the fact that you're saying one thing and literally doing another. It's like, no drugs, except the ones I like.

[xsecx]

I dont think I am being hypocritical at all. I dont preach abstenence, I preach responsibility. The fact that I dont trust my life to the judgement of others, just happens to coincide as preaching abstenence. I know many many people who are able to handle the chemicals they consume, and that is ok with me. I will go out with friends who drink, because I know that even if I were not there, they are responsible enough to not drive drunk.

Now getting back to caffine. While it is lethal if you have too much, I've yet to see somebody addicted to caffine kill themselves with their addiction. I've yet to see them steal for it, I've yet to see them kill for it. These are things that people do as a result of alcohol, cocaine, meth, etc. I'm not straight edge because I think that alcohol is intrinsically evil, but I do believe that the use of it poses a danger to both the user and those around them. It is the behavior that follows that is the problem, not the drug for the sake of being a drug. If people who used caffine were signifigantly violent, or dangerous, I would have a very different position.

as for: "I have to ask though. Why is alcohol bad, smoking bad, illegal drugs bad, but caffine ok?"

I think that idea is the great flaw or misconecption of straight edge. I dont think its about all substances = bad. It seems to me that the point is ts not the substance, it is the behavior. We dont engage in three key behaviors for a reason. For that reason, I thnk that we should avoid all things which we believe have a negative consequence as such. Like I said before, Alcohol isnt a killer, people who use it are killers. It is kinda like the guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people argument, but it is true its own way. Thousands of people carry guns with them on a daily basis, and will never kill anybody, but some people do use guns to kill. I have looked at both situations, and decided I dont even want to get involved. If there were an illegal substance that would let you fly, or increase your and response time to dangerous situations, and had no negative side effects, I would be all over it. Its not substances in general, its how they harm us. I am taking albuterol (with a prescription) right now, which you have to get from a doctor, to help me breathe while I have a bronchial infection. However that doesnt make me a Rush Limbaugh.

These are my personal beliefs, and as such, I will be available for debate on this issue on a 1 - 1 basis, but I have no intention of turning what I think into a circus.

the flaw with this is that it is the substance, the concentration of the substance that is at issue. If someone refined and increased the amount of caffeine into something with a greater effect then everything you listed for the others would apply to caffeine. I hear the same thing about weed all the time, it doesn't increase violent crime. The thing you're also failing to take into account that because caffeine is so prevalent and used daily by the vast majority that you don't really know what was influenced by it and what wasn't? Do you honestly believe that it doesn't have an effect on aggresive people? That it's never been the cause of an accident when someone should have been sleeping but didn't? Even by your own criteria, caffeine is dangerous. Your viewpoint on this is inconsistant. There are a lot of illegal drugs that make you feel good and have no negative side effects.

You can't say things like I preach responsibilty and then list things you don't do and won't do.

[straightXed]

I dont think I am being hypocritical at all. I dont preach abstenence, I preach responsibility. The fact that I dont trust my life to the judgement of others, just happens to coincide as preaching abstenence. I know many many people who are able to handle the chemicals they consume, and that is ok with me. I will go out with friends who drink, because I know that even if I were not there, they are responsible enough to not drive drunk.

Now getting back to caffine. While it is lethal if you have too much, I've yet to see somebody addicted to caffine kill themselves with their addiction. I've yet to see them steal for it, I've yet to see them kill for it. These are things that people do as a result of alcohol, cocaine, meth, etc. I'm not straight edge because I think that alcohol is intrinsically evil, but I do believe that the use of it poses a danger to both the user and those around them. It is the behavior that follows that is the problem, not the drug for the sake of being a drug. If people who used caffine were signifigantly violent, or dangerous, I would have a very different position.

as for: "I have to ask though. Why is alcohol bad, smoking bad, illegal drugs bad, but caffine ok?"

I think that idea is the great flaw or misconecption of straight edge. I dont think its about all substances = bad. It seems to me that the point is ts not the substance, it is the behavior. We dont engage in three key behaviors for a reason. For that reason, I thnk that we should avoid all things which we believe have a negative consequence as such. Like I said before, Alcohol isnt a killer, people who use it are killers. It is kinda like the guns dont kill people, people with guns kill people argument, but it is true its own way. Thousands of people carry guns with them on a daily basis, and will never kill anybody, but some people do use guns to kill. I have looked at both situations, and decided I dont even want to get involved. If there were an illegal substance that would let you fly, or increase your and response time to dangerous situations, and had no negative side effects, I would be all over it. Its not substances in general, its how they harm us. I am taking albuterol (with a prescription) right now, which you have to get from a doctor, to help me breathe while I have a bronchial infection. However that doesnt make me a Rush Limbaugh.

These are my personal beliefs, and as such, I will be available for debate on this issue on a 1 - 1 basis, but I have no intention of turning what I think into a circus. I have no reason to do caffiene, i have had a largely sleep deprived week without it and i saw enough coke and coffee consumed for people to stay awake. The caffiene seemed to wig people out enough to see no real point in using it, it made them talk a bit more crap and even get twitchy maybe even the shakes, i figure that if i'm living by that theory i could take a bit of speed or coke here and there so long as i am responsible about it. It reminds me of a doccumentry i saw once about heroin users, it highlighted a large contrast in heroin users from your typical junkie who robs to feed their habbit to buisness men who you would have no idea that they took heroin, they abided by the law in every other way and they paid for their habbit with their well paid occupation. People can take drugs and be "responsible" but i think the question that should be asked ultimately is why do you do them? Caffiene is a drug and it is bad for you, in reference to straightedge i wonder just how subjective being drug free can be.

[Sean The Red]

the flaw with this is that it is the substance, the concentration of the substance that is at issue. If someone refined and increased the amount of caffeine into something with a greater effect then everything you listed for the others would apply to caffeine. I hear the same thing about weed all the time, it doesn't increase violent crime. The thing you're also failing to take into account that because caffeine is so prevalent and used daily by the vast majority that you don't really know what was influenced by it and what wasn't? Do you honestly believe that it doesn't have an effect on aggresive people? That it's never been the cause of an accident when someone should have been sleeping but didn't? Even by your own criteria, caffeine is dangerous. Your viewpoint on this is inconsistant. There are a lot of illegal drugs that make you feel good and have no negative side effects.

You can't say things like I preach responsibilty and then list things you don't do and won't do.

Its not flawed, we know exactly what the substance is, the variable is the quantity used. The issue is the behavior, and the concentration -> quantity of use has to do with the behavior of the user. If somebody drinks a bottle of tequila, that has a different concentration of alcohol than a glass of wine. The behavior of the person is very different, one is wreckless, one is not. I dont have a problem with somebody drinking a 20oz. Cola, but if that person were freebasing 500mg of caffine, I have a problem with that. It is dangerous, but in 21 years, I have only encountered one person so irresponsible as to consume anywhere close to that much, and he is easily one of the dumbest people I have ever met, and he is not allowed to drive. However that isnt the discussion here. What is the discussion is if caffine's use is a problem. Generally, I take that to mean we're talking 2 things, soda (mainly colas) and coffee. My belief is that, as long as your a responsible with it, it's fine, it's a personal choice. It will not make you a threat to others in the same way that alcohol will, and as far as we know, will not give you cancer. If caffine is such an issue, and its all about abstinance of chemicals and being healthy, then what about trans fats, and hydrogenated oils, not driving behind diesel trucks because they put addional carbon into the air which you breathe.

[straightXed]

Its not flawed, we know exactly what the substance is, the variable is the quantity used. The issue is the behavior, and the concentration -> quantity of use has to do with the behavior of the user. If somebody drinks a bottle of tequila, that has a different concentration of alcohol than a glass of wine. The behavior of the person is very different, one is wreckless, one is not. I dont have a problem with somebody drinking a 20oz. Cola, but if that person were freebasing 500mg of caffine, I have a problem with that. It is dangerous, but in 21 years, I have only encountered one person so irresponsible as to consume anywhere close to that much, and he is easily one of the dumbest people I have ever met, and he is not allowed to drive. However that isnt the discussion here. What is the discussion is if caffine's use is a problem. Generally, I take that to mean we're talking 2 things, soda (mainly colas) and coffee. My belief is that, as long as your a responsible with it, it's fine, it's a personal choice. It will not make you a threat to others in the same way that alcohol will, and as far as we know, will not give you cancer. If caffine is such an issue, and its all about abstinance of chemicals and being healthy, then what about trans fats, and hydrogenated oils, not driving behind diesel trucks because they put addional carbon into the air which you breathe.

so why do you take the drug caffiene?

[xsecx]

Its not flawed, we know exactly what the substance is, the variable is the quantity used. The issue is the behavior, and the concentration -> quantity of use has to do with the behavior of the user. If somebody drinks a bottle of tequila, that has a different concentration of alcohol than a glass of wine. The behavior of the person is very different, one is wreckless, one is not. I dont have a problem with somebody drinking a 20oz. Cola, but if that person were freebasing 500mg of caffine, I have a problem with that. It is dangerous, but in 21 years, I have only encountered one person so irresponsible as to consume anywhere close to that much, and he is easily one of the dumbest people I have ever met, and he is not allowed to drive. However that isnt the discussion here. What is the discussion is if caffine's use is a problem. Generally, I take that to mean we're talking 2 things, soda (mainly colas) and coffee. My belief is that, as long as your a responsible with it, it's fine, it's a personal choice. It will not make you a threat to others in the same way that alcohol will, and as far as we know, will not give you cancer. If caffine is such an issue, and its all about abstinance of chemicals and being healthy, then what about trans fats, and hydrogenated oils, not driving behind diesel trucks because they put addional carbon into the air which you breathe.
so I can drink a glass of wine now?

I can be responsible with alcohol. cigarettes, weed, lsd, x, ketamine. so I can do all of those and be straight edge now?

[xdaddydaycorex]

i don't do caffeine.

but i am addicted to decaffeinated chai with vanilla soymilk in it.

so i guess i do have some addictions.

.

i share this same addiction exactly. coffebean and tea leaf are my pushers and i am their junkie. my wallet is always full of half punched pink drink cards. ( the 13th is free!!!)
have you fine tuned it to the sugar free version yet. they just added sugar free vanilla powder to their choices. hot or ice-blended blened depending on the weather too. damn gotta go get me one now.

[xdaddydaycorex]

so I can drink a glass of wine now?

I can be responsible with alcohol. cigarettes, weed, lsd, x, ketamine. so I can do all of those and be straight edge now?

yes, correct. i'm smoking crack right now but i'm going to stop before i feel any effects. last night i had some jack daniels but i didnt get drunk. and so long as you avoid the k hole you can do the ketamine.

[Sean The Red]

so why do you take the drug caffiene?

that is a loaded question. I do not take the drug caffine, in the same way that heroine addice use their drug, or alcoholics use theirs. I take a cola and accept caffine. I do not take the caffine and accept the rest other components of a cola.

[Sean The Red]

so I can drink a glass of wine now?

I can be responsible with alcohol. cigarettes, weed, lsd, x, ketamine. so I can do all of those and be straight edge now?

fallacy. Everybody here agrees that alcohol and said illegal drugs are not ok, and that their use denies straight edge. The very fact that we are having this debate about caffine, (parallel to veganism, sexual abstinance, etc.,) as well as the fact that it occurs as often as it does, shows that there is not enough concensus for that to be true. It is similar to the factions of christianity, all people who believe in the teaching of jesus are christians; however, there are many groups within that. Prodestants, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, etc., all have different beliefs, and think the other factions are going to hell.

[xsecx]

fallacy. Everybody here agrees that alcohol and said illegal drugs are not ok, and that their use denies straight edge. The very fact that we are having this debate about caffine, (parallel to veganism, sexual abstinance, etc.,) as well as the fact that it occurs as often as it does, shows that there is not enough concensus for that to be true. It is similar to the factions of christianity, all people who believe in the teaching of jesus are christians; however, there are many groups within that. Prodestants, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, etc., all have different beliefs, and think the other factions are going to hell.
how is it a fallacy? You're not even making a consistant argument. You're either taking about straight edge or you're talking about responsible usage. It's either one or the other. You even said previous how it's about how someone acts on the substance and not the substance itself. So now you say that alcohol and illegal drugs are not ok? The point of this is for people to actually think about it. i don't think most people who consume caffeine and claim to be drug free have actually spent the time to research and think about it. The fact is caffeine is a drug. It's an abused drug and it's used recreationally not medicinally. There is no parallell between this conversation and sex or veganism since we're talking a drug, especially considering there are 2 legal drugs that we all agree we don't consume. alcohol and nicotine. so why is caffeine ok?

[straightXed]

that is a loaded question. I do not take the drug caffine, in the same way that heroine addice use their drug, or alcoholics use theirs. I take a cola and accept caffine. I do not take the caffine and accept the rest other components of a cola.


Its not loaded but you aren't answering it, not answering it doesn't explain why, are you unable to do so?

You can have cola without caffiene just as i can have sunday dinner without wine but tradition would dictate that i should have wine with my dinner, it doesn't make me an alcoholic so can i drink wine and be straightedge? How is drinking a beer any different? If drink beer and accept the alcohol I would be doing exactly what you are doing with caffiene.

so just for the record, why do you take the drug caffiene?

[Sean The Red]

I tried to explain it, but I'm not going to turn it into a circus. I will not change your minds, and I'm not going to bother.

[sabresnmets]

I tried to explain it, but I'm not going to turn it into a circus. I will not change your minds, and I'm not going to bother.



no you wont. they dont give.

[sabresnmets]

ive said this before and ill say it again. there is caffeine in caffiene free tea. not much but who is to say that, the little amount in that tea isnt enough to be a drug. or chocolate, not a lot, but if you consumed enough it could be too much.

[xsecx]

ive said this before and ill say it again. there is caffeine in caffiene free tea. not much but who is to say that, the little amount in that tea isnt enough to be a drug. or chocolate, not a lot, but if you consumed enough it could be too much.
no there isn't, caffeine free means caffeine free. there is a tiny amount of caffeine in decaf tea and in chocolate. you'd have to consume 5 times the amount of decaf to get the amount of caffeine in one single soda. The amount consumed isn't enough to effect, just like the amount of alcohol consumed when eating soy sauce or drinking most juices isn't enough.

[xsecx]

I tried to explain it, but I'm not going to turn it into a circus. I will not change your minds, and I'm not going to bother.
you realize this is a pattern for you.

[xsecx]

no you wont. they dont give.
yeah, because what I think is based on impartial science.

[straightXed]

I tried to explain it, but I'm not going to turn it into a circus. I will not change your minds, and I'm not going to bother.

I wasn't asking you to change my mind i was asking why do you take the drug caffiene, its only a circus as you aren't answering the question.

[straightXed]

no you wont. they dont give.


Whats to give?

[xvunderx]

I just think it's funny that people can lie to themselves to make themselves feel better.

Caffiene is a drug. Thats a fact, if you are against drugs period, then there is no reason caffiene shouldn't be included.

People always go on about how it's pathetic that people don't look upon alcohol as a drug in society because it's so widly used, and the hypocricy of someone siting down and saying "Drugs are bad don't do them!" to their kids and sitting down for a nice glass of brandy. People here are doing the exact same thing with caffine.

Like I'm sorry you love the drug, and that you really want or in some cases need to feed your habbit. But don't lie to yourself. In life you have to look at your actions and ask "is this in line with my belifes?" and adjust your behaviour accordingly, not sit there and think "well no it isn't, but I'll convince myself it is"

If your for moderation, be for moderation accross the board, if you are against drugs, then take your stand, not just a stand on the things you don't enjoy, and cave on the things you do.

[Sean The Red]

you realize this is a pattern for you.

and you realize this is a pattern for you.

[xsecx]

and you realize this is a pattern for you.
backing up the things I believe with logical well thought out arguements, yes, yes it is. .

you say things that don't make sense even within your own argument, people, myself and others ask you questions about it, and then you get frustrated and give up.

[A7X_KICKS_ASS]

no there isn't, caffeine free means caffeine free. there is a tiny amount of caffeine in decaf tea and in chocolate. you'd have to consume 5 times the amount of decaf to get the amount of caffeine in one single soda. The amount consumed isn't enough to effect, just like the amount of alcohol consumed when eating soy sauce or drinking most juices isn't enough.
this is the only true statement that keeps us all from drinking only water.

[Sean The Red]

this is the only true statement that keeps us all from drinking only water.

...but you cant stop at simply water, it has to be distilled water, because our ground water contains toxins that are harmful to us...

[straightXed]

...but you cant stop at simply water, it has to be distilled water, because our ground water contains toxins that are harmful to us...

Are you trying to say that water is a mind altering substance in a vauge attempt to strengthen your inconsistant position on this?

[xsecx]

...but you cant stop at simply water, it has to be distilled water, because our ground water contains toxins that are harmful to us...


http://students.med.nyu.edu/asu/pictures/events/2003_chinatown/straws.jpg

here's something else for you grasp.

[XAngry CodgerX]

no there isn't, caffeine free means caffeine free. there is a tiny amount of caffeine in decaf tea and in chocolate. you'd have to consume 5 times the amount of decaf to get the amount of caffeine in one single soda. The amount consumed isn't enough to effect, just like the amount of alcohol consumed when eating soy sauce or drinking most juices isn't enough.

De-caffeinated means - "Devoid of caffeine". You said, "there is a tiny amount of caffeine in DECAF tea and in chocolate. So by your own admittance, caffeine free means free of caffeine but De-caffeinated does not. Explain that.

Also, by your rationale, drinking juices is okay because the amount of alcohol in them is negligent by your standards.... which is all we are talking about here, YOUR standards not OURS.

Don't let your Veganism get in the way of the thing that introduced you to your, "increased consciousness", Straightedge.

[xsecx]

De-caffeinated means - "Devoid of caffeine". You said, "there is a tiny amount of caffeine in DECAF tea and in chocolate. So by your own admittance, caffeine free means free of caffeine but De-caffeinated does not. Explain that.

Also, by your rationale, drinking juices is okay because the amount of alcohol in them is negligent by your standards.... which is all we are talking about here, YOUR standards not OURS.

Don't let your Veganism get in the way of the thing that introduced you to your, "increased consciousness", Straightedge.
actually it means going through a process to remove the caffeine. and the vast majority of it is in fact removed. 4 mg in a cup of decaf tea or decaf coffee vs 60-90. What exactly is your point? That caffeine isn't a drug and isn't mind altering?

The funny thing here is that OUR standard is no drugs, yet it seems you're trying to endorse drug use.

also, what makes you think I'm a vegan or that veganism has anything to do with someones thought process on drug use?

[XAngry CodgerX]

actually it means going through a process to remove the caffeine. and the vast majority of it is in fact removed. 4 mg in a cup of decaf tea or decaf coffee vs 60-90. What exactly is your point? That caffeine isn't a drug and isn't mind altering?

The funny thing here is that OUR standard is no drugs, yet it seems you're trying to endorse drug use.

also, what makes you think I'm a vegan or that veganism has anything to do with someones thought process on drug use?

Read my whole post. Thanks.

What exactly is your point; that 4mg is okay vs. 60 to 90? If it is not okay, it is not okay, no matter how minute the amount. Right?

De-caffeinated does mean that caffeine was removed. So decaf tea is okay although it still contains trace amounts?

You didn't answer my other question. OJ is okay even though it is only three days away from being converted to pure alcohol? Soy Sauce also contains alcohol, do you endorse that product?

Be consistent with your arguments. Prove me wrong, although you cannot.

[xsecx]

it is impractical and impossible to avoid trace amounts of substances. 4 mg is not enough to effect you, 60 to 90 are. So what exactly is your point? How do you live your life?

How is my argument not consistent?

[XAngry CodgerX]

it is impractical and impossible to avoid trace amounts of substances. 4 mg is not enough to effect you, 60 to 90 are. So what exactly is your point? How do you live your life?

How is my argument not consistent?

There are drinks that contain NO caffeine and NO alcohol. It is your choice to consume OJ and decaf tea (if you do, I do not know, this is for the sake of our argument) so you have the choice to consume no caffeine or alcohol from those drinks, correct?

You are right, it is impossible to avoid trace amounts of substances, but that is not compatible with this argument, because, once again, it is your CHOICE to consume these beverages or foods knowing full well they contain those substances. What if OJ contained an amount of heroin, although not enough to effect you? Would you drink it still?

You could drink a gallon of decaf tea and get the same amount of caffeine as one soda. So non-alcoholic beer is okay?

Your arguments are not consistent because consuming caffeine is a choice when it pertains to beverages that can contain caffeine. Endorsing de-caf or OJ because they contain trace amounts of substances that you are against (becasue they have no effect) is wrong as both can be consumed in large enough amounts to effect you.

[xsecx]

There are drinks that contain NO caffeine and NO alcohol. It is your choice to consume OJ and decaf tea (if you do, I do not know, this is for the sake of our argument) so you have the choice to consume no caffeine or alcohol from those drinks, correct?

You are right, it is impossible to avoid trace amounts of substances, but that is not compatible with this argument, because, once again, it is your CHOICE to consume these beverages or foods knowing full well they contain those substances. What if OJ contained an amount of heroin, although not enough to effect you? Would you drink it still?

You could drink a gallon of decaf tea and get the same amount of caffeine as one soda. So non-alcoholic beer is okay?

Your arguments are not consistent because consuming caffeine is a choice when it pertains to beverages that can contain caffeine. Endorsing de-caf or OJ because they contain trace amounts of substances that you are against (becasue they have no effect) is wrong as both can be consumed in large enough amounts to effect you.
good job skirting the actual point of my post and not actually talking about yourself or what you do.

and I'll actually entertain the rest of what you're saying if that's actually how you life your life and how you believe.

[XAngry CodgerX]

Good job being a pompous ass and not admitting that your points are not valid. You spent this whole thread trying to degrade someone else with your supposed superior intelligence. Wouldn't want to be wrong on your own site would you?

Please, overlook your pride once in a while. You are making this a personal attack on me by saying things like, "if thats how you live your life fine". I never said that I don't drink soda or tea or OJ. But if I choose to, then its okay. My tenure of SxE still is intact. If you think that by my drinking soda is endorsing drug use, get over yourself. Your opinion is just that, opinion. In your world, because I drink soda, I am a crackhead. In my world, because you drink oj and eat soy sauce with your white rice (which is more unhealty than caffeine over the long run), you are a drunk.

We can agree to disagree I hope.

Cool site by the way.

[straightXed]

Good job being a pompous ass and not admitting that your points are not valid. You spent this whole thread trying to degrade someone else with your supposed superior intelligence. Wouldn't want to be wrong on your own site would you?

Please, overlook your pride once in a while. You are making this a personal attack on me by saying things like, "if thats how you live your life fine". I never said that I don't drink soda or tea or OJ. But if I choose to, then its okay. My tenure of SxE still is intact. If you think that by my drinking soda is endorsing drug use, get over yourself. Your opinion is just that, opinion. In your world, because I drink soda, I am a crackhead. In my world, because you drink oj and eat soy sauce with your white rice (which is more unhealty than caffeine over the long run), you are a drunk.

We can agree to disagree I hope.

Cool site by the way.


I have never been drunk on soy sauce however if i drink a beverage with a large ammount of caffiene in i will feel the effects of caffeine. To avoid a substance that doesn't have a mind altering effect is pointless and to do so remains consistant with the reason's for not taking mind altering drugs.

[daytonohsxe]

actually i drink maybe one can of pop every two days and its not killing me, i'm not worried about it. im more worried with things like alcohol, liquor, and secondhand smoke. i'm not dying from it so i dont worry about it.

[xsecx]

Good job being a pompous ass and not admitting that your points are not valid. You spent this whole thread trying to degrade someone else with your supposed superior intelligence. Wouldn't want to be wrong on your own site would you?

Please, overlook your pride once in a while. You are making this a personal attack on me by saying things like, "if thats how you live your life fine". I never said that I don't drink soda or tea or OJ. But if I choose to, then its okay. My tenure of SxE still is intact. If you think that by my drinking soda is endorsing drug use, get over yourself. Your opinion is just that, opinion. In your world, because I drink soda, I am a crackhead. In my world, because you drink oj and eat soy sauce with your white rice (which is more unhealty than caffeine over the long run), you are a drunk.

We can agree to disagree I hope.

Cool site by the way.
My points are completely valid. In my world, I actually live and adhere to not consuming drugss that can effect me. Caffeine is a drug. Drinking something with a tiny amount of caffeine will not effect the body, because it isn't enough. just like drinking something with a tiny, and I do mean tiny amount of alcohol that exists in juices and soy sauce. Unless you don't actually consume anything with alcohol at any point, your comment of "In my world, because you drink oj and eat soy sauce with your white rice (which is more unhealty than caffeine over the long run), you are a drunk." isn't valid, because you're not adhering to your own standards and are doing nothing more than playing the lame role of devils advocate.

[xvunderx]

Codger, your an idiot. The question is why do you avoid drugs? Are you against the fact that they exist, or their uses? Does any one use soy sauce as a drug? No, does any one use OJ as a drug? No, does any one use decaf tea as a drug? no. Can you? No. It wouldn't be possible to drink enough soy sauce for the trace amounts of alcohol it to have any effect on you what so ever.

Is the alcohol in there to get you drunk? No, and we already stated that it's not possible for that amount to do anything, so why would it make sense to boycott it. It isn't a recreational drug here, it isn't added to get you high, kikoman aren't putting social pressures on any one to use it, and you can't use it was a crutch to hide from your ills, and last time I looked, kikomans product hasn't torn any family apart. Same with OJ.

There's more to a drug free stance alcohol etc is an evil substance. it's about the ethics and the pressures of it.

people use caffeine in just the same way as people use alcohol, as a crutch, to get a high, and also social pressure. It's addictive just like cigarettes, and does end up to some extent ruling part of a persons life, for the many people who can't wake up properly without a caffineated beverage of some description, we have companies deliberately getting people hooked on a product and then having to feed the companies pockets, whilst feeding their own addictions.

The trace amount on caffeine in decaf tea doesn't have the possibility of doing any of these things, you would dilute your body to infirmity before you could get a high off it. Thus, no one is addicted to decaf tea, no one uses it as a crutch, or to get high. It isn't possible.

The company can't make you come back to them over and over because you have a dependency. If only decaf beverages existed in the world, there would be no one drinking them for the high, and no one relying on them or addicted to them. So why would any one stand against it? It really is as dangerous, addictive and recreational as a glass of water.

You try to point holes in an argument, but your argument makes no sense, and doesn't look into the reasons behind the decision. If you are against taking drugs like alcohol, against a beer, and against cigarettes, but not against a full caff mountain dew which has the same qualities wrong with it was the things you are against, you are a hypocrite.

Is any one here against alcohol as a substance? No it's a great solvent, are they against it as a drug. yes.

[XAngry CodgerX]

I am straightedge and I am against the use of illegal drugs and against alcohol, although it is legal.

My point that you all missed or actually made for me, is that being against something is being against something. I am not "against" consuming caffeine. There are other drugs that have the same effect in substantially smaller doses or in the same doses that you would get from a soda or coffee or tea, these alternate substances are very dangerous. Is caffeine addictive? Yes. But so is the internet. Now spare me the "mind altering" effects that the internet might not have because I know plenty of dorks that stay home from work to post or surf.

This thread is asking the question if caffeine is compatible with the way of living called SxE. How I choose to live it, it is. Is alcohol, of course not. Everyone who chooses to take on the label of straightedge has a pretty good idea of what to and what not to do.

I have had this discussion with many a militant, hard-headed edge kid who though they knew it all (much like the ones who added to this thread) and they all sold out. It is assinine to worry about someone who is drinking soda. Is soda a gateway drug? No. After a soda has anyone you knew asked, "Damn, where can I get some other drugs to like this so I don't have to drink so much soda???" No because any dopehead I have ever known of would try to get high from a soda or even a 24 pack. Get real.

And yes, I am playing devils advocate. It is needed. This argument is one-sided between the militant (I am better than you edge kids) and the I will worry about myself edge kids.

XVunderX - Explain to me how people use caffeine as a social pressure. That is the funniest thing I have ever heard. Do they have decaf coffee and tea at Coffee Houses? Yes. So if I go to a coffee house to have a coffee and good conversation, it is the same as a bar? You're the idiot.

You are saying that NO ONE is addicted to the taste of tea. Bullshit!!!! Bullshit!!!! Taste has the same effect on the body as a drug. Food has the same effects on brain chemistry as drugs. So someone who eats too much sugar is also a crack head. Should we make sugar illegal? I would love to see your cup of flavored tea. Deviod of all taste and enjoyment, just like your life. Better stop enjoying food and drink, you are getting a HIGH from them!!!!

By the way, using alcohol as a solvent is not the same alcohol as the one you drink. Rubbing alcohol is a chemical and is fully toxic. Grain alcohol is the one that you consume as a beverage. Wrong again.

People do use caffeine to get a high. They do use it as a crutch. Just as you use your idiotic militance against something as benign as caffeine. I go to shows to get a high. Do you? Or you just go there for scene points or to pose. I imagine it is the latter. But by xsecx and your logic, I would then be a drug addict and be using it as a crutch and to get high. Correct?

I do not believe that caffeine is a problem. It is not a gateway drug. No one goes out to kill for a soda. No one is illegally manufacturing caffeine. There are no caffeine dealers on the streets.

But that is okay, keep worrying about what every other edge person is doing, so you can say, "I am MORE edge than you, I don't even drink soda."

Hey, lets make a thread about refined sugars and Veganism. 1-2-3 go!!!!!!

[xsecx]

I am straightedge and I am against the use of illegal drugs and against alcohol, although it is legal.


and why are you against those?



My point that you all missed or actually made for me, is that being against something is being against something. I am not "against" consuming caffeine. There are other drugs that have the same effect in substantially smaller doses or in the same doses that you would get from a soda or coffee or tea, these alternate substances are very dangerous. Is caffeine addictive? Yes. But so is the internet. Now spare me the "mind altering" effects that the internet might not have because I know plenty of dorks that stay home from work to post or surf.


how is there a point here. you're trying to compare something that is physically addictive to something that is behavior. this is not apple and oranges. Why aren't you against consuming caffeine?



This thread is asking the question if caffeine is compatible with the way of living called SxE. How I choose to live it, it is. Is alcohol, of course not. Everyone who chooses to take on the label of straightedge has a pretty good idea of what to and what not to do.


Ok, so why do you choose to live that it is. What is your logic behind it?



I have had this discussion with many a militant, hard-headed edge kid who though they knew it all (much like the ones who added to this thread) and they all sold out. It is assinine to worry about someone who is drinking soda. Is soda a gateway drug? No. After a soda has anyone you knew asked, "Damn, where can I get some other drugs to like this so I don't have to drink so much soda???" No because any dopehead I have ever known of would try to get high from a soda or even a 24 pack. Get real.


Most of the people posting in this thread are 1) far from militant and 2) far from selling out. It's not a matter of worrying about it being a gateway drug. It's about living in accordance to your own thought process. If you won't drink a single beer because it's alcohol, then why will you drink a caffeined beverage? And do you honestly think that caffeine isn't the most abused drug in the country if not the world. How many people do you know that can't function without their morning cup of coffee?



And yes, I am playing devils advocate. It is needed. This argument is one-sided between the militant (I am better than you edge kids) and the I will worry about myself edge kids.


Yeah, because you shouldn't actually argue about how you feel about a subject, because how you feel about it actually doesn't make sense within your own structure.



XVunderX - Explain to me how people use caffeine as a social pressure. That is the funniest thing I have ever heard. Do they have decaf coffee and tea at Coffee Houses? Yes. So if I go to a coffee house to have a coffee and good conversation, it is the same as a bar? You're the idiot.


Are you really that dumb that you're unable to see the parallel. People can't function without their coffee. People that can't have fun without a beer.



You are saying that NO ONE is addicted to the taste of tea. Bullshit!!!! Bullshit!!!! Taste has the same effect on the body as a drug. Food has the same effects on brain chemistry as drugs. So someone who eats too much sugar is also a crack head. Should we make sugar illegal? I would love to see your cup of flavored tea. Deviod of all taste and enjoyment, just like your life. Better stop enjoying food and drink, you are getting a HIGH from them!!!!


This is a bullshit statement. Provide proof that "Food has the same effects on brain chemistry as drugs." Do you even understand how things interact with your mind and body?



By the way, using alcohol as a solvent is not the same alcohol as the one you drink. Rubbing alcohol is a chemical and is fully toxic. Grain alcohol is the one that you consume as a beverage. Wrong again.


which is why she said it.



People do use caffeine to get a high. They do use it as a crutch. Just as you use your idiotic militance against something as benign as caffeine. I go to shows to get a high. Do you? Or you just go there for scene points or to pose. I imagine it is the latter. But by xsecx and your logic, I would then be a drug addict and be using it as a crutch and to get high. Correct?


Again, how are you going to compare an actual, literal, external substance classified by EVERYONE as a drug, to an adrenline rush? How is caffeine benign? And howis actually thinking about what you believe, why you believe them, a crutch?



I do not believe that caffeine is a problem. It is not a gateway drug. No one goes out to kill for a soda. No one is illegally manufacturing caffeine. There are no caffeine dealers on the streets.


Ok, why do you think this? No one goes out to kill for a drink, a smoke or some weed. For most drugs this logic doesn't apply. The legallity argument doesn't hold up when you bring things like tobacco and alcohol, over the counter pain killers etc into it. Abuse is abuse. Legality is irrelevant.



But that is okay, keep worrying about what every other edge person is doing, so you can say, "I am MORE edge than you, I don't even drink soda."


or more to the point, trying to get people to actually think about why they do the things they do rather than accepting it, because hey, it's a drug they really like.



Hey, lets make a thread about refined sugars and Veganism. 1-2-3 go!!!!!!
you're just full of incorrect assumptions, aren't you?

[xvunderx]

Lets start from square one shall we. Answer this very simple question.

Why are you against consuming alcohol?

Nothing else, just the answer to this question. and we can take from there for you.

[XAngry CodgerX]

Dude, its okay that you are unable to accept a change in your thought processes. You conservative you.

Things that involve an adrenalin rush are addictive. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that caffeine gives you just that, an adrenaline rush. Look it up, you will be eating your words soon. How do I know that? I have hands on training with personal trainers and myself am an accredited personal trainer and even worked at a gym for two years. I lost 100 pounds once. Do you have those kind of credentials? I do know how the body works. I have done countless hours of reasearch. I know.

Lets explain the effect that caffeine has in your brain. Since you so eloquently said "Adrenaline rush".

Epinenphrine or adrenalin is the chemical that is released into the brain when you consume caffeine. Or Ephedrine. Or Sudafed, IE psudoephedrine. Adrenalin is stored in the adrenal cortex and released through many different processes. Two of them being an activity that is exciting or a mind-altering drug (such as caffeine). Adrenalin is a fight-or-flight hormone. Basically it helps you focus. That is why ADD kids are prescribed Ritalin. Caffeine is in the same family as methylamphetamine and Ritalin.

Your logic says that caffeine is wrong because it gives you a high. The high is an adrenalin rush. Now that I have proven that, is anything exciting that gives you an adrenalin rush, not straightedge? I leave that up to you to do some backstepping and come up with some clever way to say, YES.

Food DOES have the same effect on brain chemistry as some drugs. Food, for some people is highly addictive. If it wasn't, why are there so many obese people in the United States. What other explanation do you have for me. Here is research and even a news article for proof. It was easy to find, just Google "Food and the Brain."

http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218392398

When I sited that the internet could be as addictive as caffeine I was correct. It incites a behavior;like not working, being lazy. Drinking soda or a drink with caffeine, incites a behavior. Behavior is behavior, just two different ways at getting at one or the other.

Okay, ball is in your court.

[XAngry CodgerX]

Lets start from square one shall we. Answer this very simple question.

Why are you against consuming alcohol?

Nothing else, just the answer to this question. and we can take from there for you.

I'll make it simple for you. Because you need it to be that way - I am against not alcohol, but the consumption of alcohol because of its effects on the majority of people who consume it. Its consumption is the cause of countless deaths in the world every year. It is also the cause of countless medical emergencies and therefore has a hand in the high price of medical care.

I am NOT against consuming caffeine. I am not against it because it does NONE of the things I outlined above, nor do I believe that it ever will or could.

But you do. You believe that caffeine is as evil as heroin or, for this discussion, alcohol. I am saying that you are mistaken. That is all. There really is no argument. It is your opinion vs. mine.

[xsecx]

Things that involve an adrenalin rush are addictive. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that caffeine gives you just that, an adrenaline rush. Look it up, you will be eating your words soon. How do I know that? I have hands on training with personal trainers and myself am an accredited personal trainer and even worked at a gym for two years. I lost 100 pounds once. Do you have those kind of credentials? I do know how the body works. I have done countless hours of reasearch. I know.


For someone that claims to know how things work, you've spouted useless bullshit. The chemical reaction to the body is what makes caffeine addictive, not the effect.



Lets explain the effect that caffeine has in your brain. Since you so eloquently said "Adrenaline rush".

Epinenphrine or adrenalin is the chemical that is released into the brain when you consume caffeine. Or Ephedrine. Or Sudafed, IE psudoephedrine. Adrenalin is stored in the adrenal cortex and released through many different processes. Two of them being an activity that is exciting or a mind-altering drug (such as caffeine). Adrenalin is a fight-or-flight hormone. Basically it helps you focus. That is why ADD kids are prescribed Ritalin. Caffeine is in the same family as methylamphetamine and Ritalin.

Your logic says that caffeine is wrong because it gives you a high. The high is an adrenalin rush. Now that I have proven that, is anything exciting that gives you an adrenalin rush, not straightedge? I leave that up to you to do some backstepping and come up with some clever way to say, YES.


The high is artifical and from an external source. Just like many many illegal drugs. So what point are you trying to prove? You're proving me right, not proving me wrong with this. You're using a chemical to make you feel a certain way.



Food DOES have the same effect on brain chemistry as some drugs. Food, for some people is highly addictive. If it wasn't, why are there so many obese people in the United States. What other explanation do you have for me. Here is research and even a news article for proof. It was easy to find, just Google "Food and the Brain."

http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218392398


Ok, let's just deflate your logic because it's that the case, then everyone everywhere would be obese. All you're doing is try and use the word addiction to somehow justify your usage of a drug. And you're doing so by attempting to provide examples of things that aren't chemically addictive when we're talking about something that is. The article doesn't actually say anything other than when people see food part of their brain lights up. IT doesn't say food gets people high. It doesn't say that food causes it, and the thing it does say is that it's probably the same with some people as it is emotional addictions like gambling. However, like I said, apples and oranges. Caffeine causes a physical chemical addiction.



When I sited that the internet could be as addictive as caffeine I was correct. It incites a behavior;like not working, being lazy. Drinking soda or a drink with caffeine, incites a behavior. Behavior is behavior, just two different ways at getting at one or the other.


Except that one is chemical and one is behavioral. not the same thing. not even close to the same thing. Not everyone is subject to behavioral addictions, however EVERYONE is subject to chemical addictions.



Okay, ball is in your court.
if you're going to keep this going, you're going to need to learn how to quote what you're responding to, especially since you missed a good bit of what I actually asked you.

[XAngry CodgerX]

The effect from consuming caffeine is what the chemical reaction does. You cannot separate the two. Cause and effect. Remember.

Chemical or not, things are addictive. We are arguing about addiction. Or aren't we. Your points prove mine.

You need to read my post to XvunderX.

I am not justifying addiction. I am saying that caffeine is not in the same league as heroin or cocaine or any other drug. I am saying it gives you the same reaction as food, or sugar, base jumping, fighting, having sex or jumping a dirtbike.

You are hung up on the word drug. Drugs aren't evil. Just as alcohol. It is the people that use them. When you get injured, do you take painkillers? Trust me, a buddy was stabbed and he took the morophine in the hospital. Is he less in your eyes?

Now about food. The research is there. It has the same effect on SOME people as cocaine. A chemical reaction in the brain from an external source, as you put it. There is no grey area there. It is one in the same. Just we need to eat. But we don't need to eat for pleasure. It is the same reason that we are against promiscuous sex. It wasn't made for fun. Either was food.

Now, the effect that caffeine has on people is not always the same. Some people can handle beer and wine and some others can't. So tell me how you can say, factually, that caffeine affects everyone the same way?

You have some valid points. But I am not arguing those with you. I am arguing the fact that someone is wrong for drinking sodas or consuming coffee. I say they aren't. I consume coffee. I consume soda. Do I have to wake up and have some? Nope. In your eyes, I am wrong. So what? Who the hell are you? My point is that although classified by some people as "DRUG", just because it is called that, doesn't make it bad. Just as because alcohol is legal, doesn't make it okay.

And last, what do you think causes behavior? Chemicals. Chemicals in the brain. Chemicals are what run the body. Do some more research. You have no clue.

[xsecx]

now go back and format this correctly. if you're going to address specific things that I said. hit the little quote button and put quotes around it.

[xsecx]

I'll make it simple for you. Because you need it to be that way - I am against not alcohol, but the consumption of alcohol because of its effects on the majority of people who consume it. Its consumption is the cause of countless deaths in the world every year. It is also the cause of countless medical emergencies and therefore has a hand in the high price of medical care.

I am NOT against consuming caffeine. I am not against it because it does NONE of the things I outlined above, nor do I believe that it ever will or could.

But you do. You believe that caffeine is as evil as heroin or, for this discussion, alcohol. I am saying that you are mistaken. That is all. There really is no argument. It is your opinion vs. mine.
so marijuana is ok? it does nothing you said above and if not smoked doesn't have any long term negative health ramifications? Also with caffeine being apart of most of the worlds diet, how can you begin to explain how it effects health and how it doesn't? Just so I know, what is ok and what isn't? What drugs can I take recreationally and what can't I? If they don't meet your criteria above, then they're ok to use and abuse?

[XAngry CodgerX]

so marijuana is ok? it does nothing you said above and if not smoked doesn't have any long term negative health ramifications? Also with caffeine being apart of most of the worlds diet, how can you begin to explain how it effects health and how it doesn't? Just so I know, what is ok and what isn't? What drugs can I take recreationally and what can't I? If they don't meet your criteria above, then they're ok to use and abuse?

Marijuana causes impaired judgement and I have known many people who have been injured or killed driving cars or heavy equipment while taking marijuana. Therefore, it does do what I outlined above. So no, smart guy, it is not okay.

We are discussing caffeine, dork. That seems to be what the issue here is. You are trying to tell me that it is not okay, but you don't have a leg to stand on. You spout off useless shit like "it causes addiction", and "gives you a high", but cannot tell me how it damages anyone. You know what kind of damage illegal drugs like herion and crack do. And by the way, they are in a class of drugs called schedule III, classified by the DEA. Caffeine isn't there.

The amino acids L-Tyrosine and DL-Phenylalanine are two amino acids that cause, your favorite term, "chemical reactions", similar to caffeine in the brain. These are, ahem, AMINO ACIDS. Found in food. So if I take them separately and they are not classified as a drug, they are okay in your eyes. I still maintain you are hung up on the word, drug.

I can explain how it effects health. In moderate doses, it increases focus. Taken with b vitamins and certain amino acids, the effect lasts longer. So increased focus is not a positive? You can't tell me shit about it other than that it is, once again, "addictive","a drug", and "gets you high". Tell me Einstein, what FACTS do you have to back up your claims that it is not good for you. Other than it is labeled with "DRUG".. oooooohhhhh.

For the record, we are not here to discuss what I am against. I am against what every other SxE kid should be against. All you want to do is put me down, not site reasons for the non-support that you have for it. That goes even farther to prove your own narrow-minded thinking.

By the way, when you talk about pot, you sound like an old pot head buddy I used to have in high school. He used to tell me that it did nothing to him other than make him want to eat and sit around. Well, twelve years later, he can hardly wipe his own ass. But, according to you, pot doesn't damage anyone.

[XAngry CodgerX]

now go back and format this correctly. if you're going to address specific things that I said. hit the little quote button and put quotes around it.

Happy? My HTML is lacking. God am I lame. Now, pipe down.

[xsecx]

Happy? My HTML is lacking. God am I lame. Now, pipe down.
no because you didn't actually do it.

[xsecx]

Marijuana causes impaired judgement and I have known many people who have been injured or killed driving cars or heavy equipment while taking marijuana. Therefore, it does do what I outlined above. So no, smart guy, it is not okay.


I've known people ho have been injured or killed driving cars or heavy equipment while taking caffeine. and I'm sure you have too. Therefore it does do what you outlined above.



We are discussing caffeine, dork. That seems to be what the issue here is. You are trying to tell me that it is not okay, but you don't have a leg to stand on. You spout off useless shit like "it causes addiction", and "gives you a high", but cannot tell me how it damages anyone. You know what kind of damage illegal drugs like herion and crack do. And by the way, they are in a class of drugs called schedule III, classified by the DEA. Caffeine isn't there.


You're the one that likes to bring other things into the conversation. You're trying to tell me that it's ok, but you haven't actually explained why.

"Caffeine-related diagnoses in DSM-IV include caffeine intoxication, caffeine-induced anxiety disorder and caffeine-induced sleep disorder. DSM-IV also includes caffeine withdrawal syndrome as a diagnosis worthy of further study."

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p010247.html

You need to pick one argument and stick with it, rather than jumping around. Is something wrong because it's illegal? Well no, because alcohol and nicotine are legal. Then how about damage, uh nope because marijuana doesn't cause any damage. psycho active mushrooms don't either. neither does peyote. It seems that you use critieria to justify what you like and want to use when it's convient.



The amino acids L-Tyrosine and DL-Phenylalanine are two amino acids that cause, your favorite term, "chemical reactions", similar to caffeine in the brain. These are, ahem, AMINO ACIDS. Found in food. So if I take them separately and they are not classified as a drug, they are okay in your eyes. I still maintain you are hung up on the word, drug.


Any your point here is what exactly? You seems to be all over the place trying to justify something that logically doesn't make sense. Is caffeine a drug? Is caffeine being used medicinally? When you use caffeine are you using it as medicine or are you using it recreationally?




I can explain how it effects health. In moderate doses, it increases focus. Taken with b vitamins and certain amino acids, the effect lasts longer. So increased focus is not a positive? You can't tell me shit about it other than that it is, once again, "addictive","a drug", and "gets you high". Tell me Einstein, what FACTS do you have to back up your claims that it is not good for you. Other than it is labeled with "DRUG".. oooooohhhhh.


Cocaine and speed can both give me increased focus. I also am amazed that you have convinced yourself that a chemical dependence to a substance isn't enough of a reason for you not to use something.

oh yeah. and there's this too

Caffeine mildly stimulates the heart and respiratory system, increases muscular tremor, and produces more stomach acid. Higher doses may cause nervousness, anxiety, irritability, headache, disturbed sleep, and stomach upset or peptic ulcers. In women, excessive caffeine consumption may aggravate the symptoms of premenstrual syndrome (PMS). With high doses over time, people become "wired" -- hyperactive and sensitive to stimulation in their environment. In a few cases, the disturbance is so severe that a person may misperceive her/his surroundings -- a toxic psychosis. So there is a level of caffeine that causes toxicity.

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/0398.html


For the record, we are not here to discuss what I am against. I am against what every other SxE kid should be against. All you want to do is put me down, not site reasons for the non-support that you have for it. That goes even farther to prove your own narrow-minded thinking.


Actually we are here to discuss how you think about something and why you think it. which so far has been unsupported and all over the place. You're the one that has made repeated blind assumptions, yet I'm the one that is narrow-minded?



By the way, when you talk about pot, you sound like an old pot head buddy I used to have in high school. He used to tell me that it did nothing to him other than make him want to eat and sit around. Well, twelve years later, he can hardly wipe his own ass. But, according to you, pot doesn't damage anyone.

Or according to every major medical study on the matter, but hey, you're the expert on everything!
for instance, here's one!

http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2003/06_27_Grant.html

[XAngry CodgerX]

*****************This was deleted post #1
Thanks for trying to see my side. Or open your mind. You are too pompous to see that your disdain for caffeine is completely unfounded.

Please define - Straightedge.

Wait I will do it for you -

An abstinence from illegal drugs, alcohol, smoking and promiscuous sex. Whats yours?

[XAngry CodgerX]

************************This was deleted post #2
Dude, you got me!!! No more caffeine for me. Fuck........

You still outlined NOTHING that is enough for me to stop. But who cares about me. My issue is that you think you know more than any other SxE person and that they shouldn't ingest caffeine. And, that they are wrong for doing so in your eyes.

Who made you Judge?

[XAngry CodgerX]

*Rolls on floor laughing hysterically*

Dude, read the research ALL THE WAY THROUGH.

I might drink soda, but your an idiot.

Thank you and goodnight.

[xsecx]

*Rolls on floor laughing hysterically*

Dude, read the research ALL THE WAY THROUGH.

I might drink soda, but your an idiot.

Thank you and goodnight.
you do realize I can see your 2 previous posts you attempted to delete right?

I can undelete them and everyone can see them if you'd like. i think they'd find them quite funny given your last post.

I'm also sure that by not actually mentioning what part you found so funny and amazing, that it must have really hit you quite hard.

[XAngry CodgerX]

you do realize I can see your 2 previous posts you attempted to delete right?

I can undelete them and everyone can see them if you'd like. i think they'd find them quite funny given your last post.

I'm also sure that by not actually mentioning what part you found so funny and amazing, that it must have really hit you quite hard.

Don't threaten me. Really. All of the research you found on the web means nothing to you. All the big words and things like psychosis don't mean shit to you. I understand it. You think what you said hit me hard? Hit me hard in the respect that you don't actually know what you are talking about. You still are all about addiction and drugs. You don't care why or why not, you just are. You did a little bit of web research and your an expert.

Drugs, drugs, drugs. All bad. Caffeine bad. Thats all I get from you. People who ingest caffeine should think about what they are doing. Admittedly, they should. Every single person should question and know exactly why they are doing what they are doing. They should realize all the repercussions of their actions.

I know exactly what caffeine can do to people and what it does. I have worked with people who are very overweight (including myself) who take caffeine and it has done wonders for them. By increasing focus, it has helped them acheive their goals. I know that alcohol, smoking or many of the other drugs that we talk about have very few redeeming qualities. I have never taken any of them nor will I ever. I have been around alot of druggies in my life and want no part of it. But you don't think that a responsible adult like me could make a choice like caffeine and think that I will have to go to a clinic to get off of it. Get real. Its not crack. I won't be curled up in a corner yelling for a fix. All I will get is a headache. The research you showed me told me that.

Not many other people have even responded to this thread because this discussion is stupid. The author of this just simply asked why or why not? You, instead of just stating your opinion and leaving it at that, jumped at the first person who didn't think that it wasn't a drug by your standards. That is where I jumped in.

So what now? Are you going to read some more research that means nothing to you because you don't understand it or are you just going to leave it alone?

I understand you think it is wrong to ingest caffeine. I understand you think it is a drug like crack. I understand you are king SxE and better than everyone else and the crusader of all that is straightedge.

I don't think it is wrong. I believe that its positives far outweigh the negatives.

So now to one of my other questions I deleted; define straightedge for us -

[xsecx]

Don't threaten me. Really. All of the research you found on the web means nothing to you. All the big words and things like psychosis don't mean shit to you. I understand it. You think what you said hit me hard? Hit me hard in the respect that you don't actually know what you are talking about. You still are all about addiction and drugs. You don't care why or why not, you just are. You did a little bit of web research and your an expert.


They mean nothing to you, yet illict a response like this? You do realize that I have demonstrated with factual trusted sources things that back up what I've said. You really do like making assumptions but not actually base them on anything. Do you honestly think I haven't asked myself the same question I'm asking people and researched it and based my decision on the science and the reality of the situation, not my emotional attachment to a substance?



Drugs, drugs, drugs. All bad. Caffeine bad. Thats all I get from you. People who ingest caffeine should think about what they are doing. Admittedly, they should. Every single person should question and know exactly why they are doing what they are doing. They should realize all the repercussions of their actions.


Do you actually read what people write to you? You're the one that got all upset because I pointed out that marijuana doesn't have long term effects.



I know exactly what caffeine can do to people and what it does. I have worked with people who are very overweight (including myself) who take caffeine and it has done wonders for them. By increasing focus, it has helped them acheive their goals. I know that alcohol, smoking or many of the other drugs that we talk about have very few redeeming qualities. I have never taken any of them nor will I ever. I have been around alot of druggies in my life and want no part of it. But you don't think that a responsible adult like me could make a choice like caffeine and think that I will have to go to a clinic to get off of it. Get real. Its not crack. I won't be curled up in a corner yelling for a fix. All I will get is a headache. The research you showed me told me that.


Do you actually listen to yourself? You end up all over the map and you make assumptions that aren't there. You talk about using a substance to help you and then attempt to talk shit about a group of people for doing the same thing? How does that make sense to you? It's not crack. I never said it was. You're the one trying to paint with the broad brush. I never actually put any value on any substances other than addictive non addictive, recreational and medicinal. And if you think the extent of "bad things" that happen to you is a headache on or coming off caffeine, which no matter how you want to explain it to yourself is your body suffering from a withdrawl from a chemical depedence on a substance.



Not many other people have even responded to this thread because this discussion is stupid. The author of this just simply asked why or why not? You, instead of just stating your opinion and leaving it at that, jumped at the first person who didn't think that it wasn't a drug by your standards. That is where I jumped in.


Yeah, because we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya when someone thinks somethin g that isn't correct or founded in logic. I hate to repeat myself, but you do realize that caffeine is a drug by ALL standards. if you think anything else, you are actually lying to yourself.



So what now? Are you going to read some more research that means nothing to you because you don't understand it or are you just going to leave it alone?


nice knee jerk reaction. How exactly did I not understand the research? You keep repeating yourself and it's pretty funny.



I understand you think it is wrong to ingest caffeine. I understand you think it is a drug like crack. I understand you are king SxE and better than everyone else and the crusader of all that is straightedge.


I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. If someone wants to use any substance it's up to them. However if someone is going to take a stand against drug use, they shouldn't exactly have a chemical dependance, now should they?

You're awful into the whole idea of crack though.



I don't think it is wrong. I believe that its positives far outweigh the negatives.


So what other chemical substances does this involve? Where's the line?




So now to one of my other questions I deleted; define straightedge for us -

And your point here is what exactly?

[XAngry CodgerX]

They mean nothing to you, yet illict a response like this? You do realize that I have demonstrated with factual trusted sources things that back up what I've said. You really do like making assumptions but not actually base them on anything. Do you honestly think I haven't asked myself the same question I'm asking people and researched it and based my decision on the science and the reality of the situation, not my emotional attachment to a substance?

I said they mean nothing to you. You = xsecx. Factual trusted sources. Smoke and mirrors bro, smoke and mirrors for you. The science and reality. You had nothing to say until you went on the internet and found a biased article to back up your claims. Luck was on your side. You were sweatin' that one.

And the claims I made in this thread are based on fact and real world application. Such as the article on food and its correlation with chemical dependence. But you didn't read that, you said something colorful like, "all the article said was that when they showed people food their brains lit up." Oh, really.......


Do you actually read what people write to you? You're the one that got all upset because I pointed out that marijuana doesn't have long term effects.

I read what you wrote to me. I am saying that marijuana DOES have long term effects. Intangibles are at work here. I have seen plenty of burn outs. I didn't get upset at what you said about marijuana, I just think that sticking up for one drug and not the other is exactly why we are having this argument, right?


Do you actually listen to yourself? You end up all over the map and you make assumptions that aren't there. You talk about using a substance to help you and then attempt to talk shit about a group of people for doing the same thing? How does that make sense to you? It's not crack. I never said it was. You're the one trying to paint with the broad brush. I never actually put any value on any substances other than addictive non addictive, recreational and medicinal. And if you think the extent of "bad things" that happen to you is a headache on or coming off caffeine, which no matter how you want to explain it to yourself is your body suffering from a withdrawl from a chemical depedence on a substance.

Who am I talking shit about? People who drink soda? No. People who drink coffee? No. I am confused.

You are correct, you don't put any other value on substances other than addictive and non-addictive. Thats where your mistake is. There is more at work here.




Yeah, because we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya when someone thinks somethin g that isn't correct or founded in logic. I hate to repeat myself, but you do realize that caffeine is a drug by ALL standards. if you think anything else, you are actually lying to yourself.

You proved my point. If someone thinks something you don't, it isn't founded in YOUR logic. Or correct in your mind. Thats my point. You aren't all knowing or god.

Dude, I said many times that caffeine is a drug. Are you fucking stupid? Read my posts again. I am not arguing that with you.




nice knee jerk reaction. How exactly did I not understand the research? You keep repeating yourself and it's pretty funny.

You didn't understand the research because you only took out of it what you wanted to hear. The article on caffeine mentions all of the major side effects at "HIGHER" doses. Whatever the fuck that is. Of course that biased article mentions nothing of the amounts in those alleged "higher" doses.





I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong. If someone wants to use any substance it's up to them. However if someone is going to take a stand against drug use, they shouldn't exactly have a chemical dependance, now should they?

The above statement proves your ignorance. I repeat myself because you are a knucklehead. Nothing I say even comes out when you respond. You read what you want and twist it into your own interpretation. I take a stand against illicit and/or illegal drug use. I do not consider caffeine illicit, nor is it illegal. Thats where I stand.


You're awful into the whole idea of crack though.

What the fuck does that mean? Are you immaturely trying to bag on me? Whats next, yo momma jokes? Give it up.




So what other chemical substances does this involve? Where's the line?

It involves NO other substances. None. That is where I draw the line.





And your point here is what exactly?

I want you to define straightedge because your attitude says to me that you somehow have a better working knowledge of what a SxE person should or should not do. So go for it King SxE, tell me what straightedge is.

[daytonohsxe]

I'm kind of confused, is this guy saying that if I drink Tea and like it and drink it a lot then I'm getting high off of it? And I see no caffeine in the Country Time Iced Tea I'm drinking.

[xsecx]

I'm kind of confused, is this guy saying that if I drink Tea and like it and drink it a lot then I'm getting high off of it? And I see no caffeine in the Country Time Iced Tea I'm drinking.
you do get high off of it. and caffeine only has to be listed in the ingredient list if it's an additiive. it's native to tea, so it's not listed. unless what you're drinking isn't actual tea.

Do you really not know how caffeine affects your body? What do you think it does to keep people awake?

[xsecx]

I said they mean nothing to you. You = xsecx. Factual trusted sources. Smoke and mirrors bro, smoke and mirrors for you. The science and reality. You had nothing to say until you went on the internet and found a biased article to back up your claims. Luck was on your side. You were sweatin' that one.


Wow, you learned how to quote. you can adapt! How is stuff that I didn't write and have no connection to smoke and mirrors? Because it contradicts you? How is that luck? IT's science you moron. You're like the kid that gets frustrated when he's lost a game and accuses everyone else of cheating or using cheap shots.




And the claims I made in this thread are based on fact and real world application. Such as the article on food and its correlation with chemical dependence. But you didn't read that, you said something colorful like, "all the article said was that when they showed people food their brains lit up." Oh, really.......


Did you read the article you posted? I did, and in fact that is all it said. It had some acedotal evidence from some random woman talking about how food is addictive. I know you like ancedotal evidence, but it's not real or useful.



I read what you wrote to me. I am saying that marijuana DOES have long term effects. Intangibles are at work here. I have seen plenty of burn outs. I didn't get upset at what you said about marijuana, I just think that sticking up for one drug and not the other is exactly why we are having this argument, right?


So a scientific study from a respected university says one thing, with a much larger base, but they're wrong and you're right because you observed things you can't measure, can't test and can't reproduce? Are you really that insane? Oh I forgot the UCSD study was done in the High times wing of the stoner college.



Who am I talking shit about? People who drink soda? No. People who drink coffee? No. I am confused.


of course you are, because you can't focus on one thing, must be the caffeine jitters.

" I have never taken any of them nor will I ever. I have been around alot of druggies in my life and want no part of it."



You are correct, you don't put any other value on substances other than addictive and non-addictive. Thats where your mistake is. There is more at work here.


You've failed to demonstrate how it's a mistake or how having an addiction is somehow a good thing.




You proved my point. If someone thinks something you don't, it isn't founded in YOUR logic. Or correct in your mind. Thats my point. You aren't all knowing or god.


What point would that be, you've tried and failed with so many, I've lost track.



Dude, I said many times that caffeine is a drug. Are you fucking stupid? Read my posts again. I am not arguing that with you.


"instead of just stating your opinion and leaving it at that, jumped at the first person who didn't think that it wasn't a drug by your standards."

by making this statement you inject something that isn't there. The first person who posted asked a question whether or not it was a drug. The fact that you put "wasn't a drug by your standards" implies that the criteria of what makes it a drug is my own opinion and not a fact.




You didn't understand the research because you only took out of it what you wanted to hear. The article on caffeine mentions all of the major side effects at "HIGHER" doses. Whatever the fuck that is. Of course that biased article mentions nothing of the amounts in those alleged "higher" doses.


So what part of the articles that I posted links to contradict what I posted? You said something had NO side effects NO downside. I post 2 articles from respected sources and this is how you respond because it's not what you want to hear? One of us doesn't understand the research and it's not me. How exactly is it biased? Because it says something you didn't like? I'm sure they wrote those articles just for me, knowing that some day we'd have this discussion.





The above statement proves your ignorance. I repeat myself because you are a knucklehead. Nothing I say even comes out when you respond. You read what you want and twist it into your own interpretation. I take a stand against illicit and/or illegal drug use. I do not consider caffeine illicit, nor is it illegal. Thats where I stand.


Illicit and illegal mean the same thing. Alcohol isn't illegal. Nicotine isn't illegal. Tussin isn't illegal. Prescription pain killers aren't illegal. Nitrous isn't illegal. Spray pain and glue aren't illegal. How am I the ignorant one, when you're the one against drugs except the ones you like.




What the fuck does that mean? Are you immaturely trying to bag on me? Whats next, yo momma jokes? Give it up.


It means you try and compare things to crack a lot. That crack is somehow the gold standard and if it isn't as bad as crack then it doesn't matter.





It involves NO other substances. None. That is where I draw the line.


So why is caffeine ok? because you like it? So drugs are bad, except caffeine. What criteria do you use so that we can apply against anything new that comes along? Why exactly are other things bad? What side effects are ok? What can I be chemically addicted to?




I want you to define straightedge because your attitude says to me that you somehow have a better working knowledge of what a SxE person should or should not do. So go for it King SxE, tell me what straightedge is.

no recreational drug use. it's pretty simple.

[straightXed]

I
What the fuck does that mean? Are you immaturely trying to bag on me? Whats next, yo momma jokes? Give it up.







I want you to define straightedge because your attitude says to me that you somehow have a better working knowledge of what a SxE person should or should not do. So go for it King SxE, tell me what straightedge is.


I love the demostative hipocracy.

[XAngry CodgerX]

Did you read the article you posted? I did, and in fact that is all it said. It had some acedotal evidence from some random woman talking about how food is addictive. I know you like ancedotal evidence, but it's not real or useful.

It had some ANECDOTAL evidence from some woman. You didn't read the article. Some woman can go into an x-ray room and use a CT scan machine right? Dumbass. Don't be the person you are accusing me of. Oh, wait heres your answer to this - How am I being that person?




So a scientific study from a respected university says one thing, with a much larger base, but they're wrong and you're right because you observed things you can't measure, can't test and can't reproduce? Are you really that insane? Oh I forgot the UCSD study was done in the High times wing of the stoner college.

You have no clue how medical studies work. Some are funded by people who are looking to get positive results from the studies and thus, they FUND them and magically the results are positive. It happens all the time. Oh, wait, no one would ever fudge the results of a medical test based on the amount of money they received to do that test. Yeah and if you told me that caffeine was bad, I would believe you.




of course you are, because you can't focus on one thing, must be the caffeine jitters.

You still didn't answer my question, Mr. Clever.


" I have never taken any of them nor will I ever. I have been around alot of druggies in my life and want no part of it."

You've failed to demonstrate how it's a mistake or how having an addiction is somehow a good thing.

You are talking about addiction and I am not. Plain and simple. Taking caffeine can be addictive. But once again, I will say, the positives far outweigh the negatives.





What point would that be, you've tried and failed with so many, I've lost track.

What? Get back on the short bus.





So what part of the articles that I posted links to contradict what I posted? You said something had NO side effects NO downside. I post 2 articles from respected sources and this is how you respond because it's not what you want to hear? One of us doesn't understand the research and it's not me. How exactly is it biased? Because it says something you didn't like? I'm sure they wrote those articles just for me, knowing that some day we'd have this discussion.

You did the same thing when I posted the article on food and addiction. Its all right there. Read it. I can find many more. I will even go to the library and copy a shitload more and mail them to you, if you would like.






Illicit and illegal mean the same thing. Alcohol isn't illegal. Nicotine isn't illegal. Tussin isn't illegal. Prescription pain killers aren't illegal. Nitrous isn't illegal. Spray pain and glue aren't illegal. How am I the ignorant one, when you're the one against drugs except the ones you like.

Illicit - [adj] contrary to or forbidden by law; "an illegitimate seizure of power"; "illicit trade"; "an outlaw strike"; "unlawful measures" - theres your definition.
[adj] contrary to accepted morality (especially sexual morality) or convention; "an illicit association with his secretary - theres mine.

Tell me if I am wrong. Pot is ok if used in in a medical application? It hasn't been that way until recently (legal for medicinal uses) so when it became legal to use for medication, it was ok in your eyes? Once again, pointing out my faults when yours are the same. And by the way, drugs that are prescribed are 80 percent of time illegal when not prescribed. For the record, I do not support marijuana in any use.




It means you try and compare things to crack a lot. That crack is somehow the gold standard and if it isn't as bad as crack then it doesn't matter.

Ok, I'll use alcohol as a comparison.






So why is caffeine ok? because you like it? So drugs are bad, except caffeine. What criteria do you use so that we can apply against anything new that comes along? Why exactly are other things bad? What side effects are ok? What can I be chemically addicted to?

Yes, caffeine to me is ok.

You are hung up on the word drug. You have been this whole time. Why do I say that? I am intelligent enough to think for myself. I know, through real world experience, that caffeine is a benign substance, no worse than sugar. People have withdrawls from sugar too.

http://www.metro.co.uk/metro/standard/article.html?in_article_id=9685&in_page_id=1

http://www.rotten.com/library/crime/drugs/sugar/ - this is what rotten.com had to say about it.

http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/sugar.html - here's more.

Look at what you are saying. Just because someone classified caffeine as a drug and sugar is not "OFFICIALLY" classified as a drug, sugar is okay and caffeine is not, even though many studies have proven that sugar activated many of the same brain processes as opiate drugs do. What fucking more do you need? You are addicted to sugar, my "i am more pure than you" friend. Go ahead and try it too. Stop eating ALL sugars. Natural or not, because as my background would tell me, all sugars are created equal. You will be irritable, have headaches and be downright grumpy. Why, because you are going through withdrawls. So don't tell me about addiction. Or that caffeine is so bad. If you are so damn clean, stop eating sugar. Go on a low-carb diet. Talk to me in three months.

And yes, I am using this to justify use of caffeine. Before you say it.






no recreational drug use. it's pretty simple.

So sugar isn't getting you high? Get over yourself, that is my point.

[xsecx]

It had some ANECDOTAL evidence from some woman. You didn't read the article. Some woman can go into an x-ray room and use a CT scan machine right? Dumbass. Don't be the person you are accusing me of. Oh, wait heres your answer to this - How am I being that person?


you are seriously one of the dumbest people I've ever encountered. Let's do this line by line then, since you're such a moron

"Numbers count for Cristina Tur. She eyes them going up, scrutinizes them going down. She rages when they don't change, weeps when they move in the wrong direction.

Tur's not a stockbroker. Her fixation with figures comes from a lifetime of chronic dieting that's seen her

Cristina Tur, not a scientist, a dieter.

"Gene-Jack Wang, a nuclear physician at Brookhaven National Laboratory, has found new evidence that the mere sight and smell of food can trigger an area in the brain—the orbitofrontal cortex—to light up in much the same way it does when substance abusers talk about their addictions,"

"Tur believes that food is absolutely an addiction: "The only problem is with alcohol you can become abstinent, with food you can't. It's a killing addiction because you, if it gets out of control, you die. That's what the doctor told me, 'You're committing suicide very slowly.'""

Like I said idiot. All that article shows is that a part of the brain lights up when craving happens. Craving food, completely and totally biological and normal. SHOCKING!




You have no clue how medical studies work. Some are funded by people who are looking to get positive results from the studies and thus, they FUND them and magically the results are positive. It happens all the time. Oh, wait, no one would ever fudge the results of a medical test based on the amount of money they received to do that test. Yeah and if you told me that caffeine was bad, I would believe you.


Yeah because there is a giant marijuana lobby pushing their pot agenda. And let's not forget the major anti caffeine lobby too. I like how you live in this world where real evidence is provided and you just dismiss it, not based on other data, but because you assume bias. You haven't actually established bias, you just assume it.




You still didn't answer my question, Mr. Clever.


Actually I did. if you go back and look right below this, you'll see your own words you idiot.



You are talking about addiction and I am not. Plain and simple. Taking caffeine can be addictive. But once again, I will say, the positives far outweigh the negatives.


Ok. so addictions are good things to have? I'm talking about chemical dependence. I'm talking about recreational drug use. There are positives with drinking a glass of wine with dinner, which has no downside, but to you that's wrong. That's not consistent.




What? Get back on the short bus.


You were the one trying to call other people immature?




You did the same thing when I posted the article on food and addiction. Its all right there. Read it. I can find many more. I will even go to the library and copy a shitload more and mail them to you, if you would like.


No, I actually pointed out where it wasn't relevent. You just make statements, but don't back them up. LIke your bias bullshit.





Illicit - [adj] contrary to or forbidden by law; "an illegitimate seizure of power"; "illicit trade"; "an outlaw strike"; "unlawful measures" - theres your definition.
[adj] contrary to accepted morality (especially sexual morality) or convention; "an illicit association with his secretary - theres mine.


http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=illicit

the respected dictionary disagrees with you. Also, alcohol and nicotine don't go against that definition. They are part of the accepted morality. nice try though.



Tell me if I am wrong. Pot is ok if used in in a medical application? It hasn't been that way until recently (legal for medicinal uses) so when it became legal to use for medication, it was ok in your eyes? Once again, pointing out my faults when yours are the same. And by the way, drugs that are prescribed are 80 percent of time illegal when not prescribed. For the record, I do not support marijuana in any use.


How is it any different than using an opiate for pain killing or any other number of things? Given the way it's prescribed and to who, why would I have a problem with it? You're the one that says I'm all hung up on drug drug drug. Caffeine is use medicinally in painkillers. If you're taking them medicinally, why would I have a problem with it? You're not talking about medicinal use though, you're talking about recreational. There's a difference. Weren't you the one trying to talk about using morphine for pain killling? Jesus, be consistant. you're all over the map jitters.



Ok, I'll use alcohol as a comparison.


Kind of kills your rhetoric since it's less addictive and you dont need detox clinics for it.



Yes, caffeine to me is ok.


ok great, now how about actually answering the questions. I'll put them here again for you

"So why is caffeine ok? because you like it? So drugs are bad, except caffeine. What criteria do you use so that we can apply against anything new that comes along? Why exactly are other things bad? What side effects are ok? What can I be chemically addicted to?"



You are hung up on the word drug. You have been this whole time. Why do I say that? I am intelligent enough to think for myself. I know, through real world experience, that caffeine is a benign substance, no worse than sugar. People have withdrawls from sugar too.


It's a benighn substance that leads to addiction, can lead to medical problems? Do you know what benign means?

here, I'll save you the trouble "3 a : of a mild type or character that does not threaten health or life <a benign tumor> b : having no significant effect :"

hm. nope doesn't fit.

Hm, sugar, something people need to survive, caffeine a stimulant added to things. yeah, i can see how you could make the comparison. The irony here is, weren't you the one waiting for people to bring up refined sugar?



Look at what you are saying. Just because someone classified caffeine as a drug and sugar is not "OFFICIALLY" classified as a drug, sugar is okay and caffeine is not, even though many studies have proven that sugar activated many of the same brain processes as opiate drugs do. What fucking more do you need? You are addicted to sugar, my "i am more pure than you" friend. Go ahead and try it too. Stop eating ALL sugars. Natural or not, because as my background would tell me, all sugars are created equal. You will be irritable, have headaches and be downright grumpy. Why, because you are going through withdrawls. So don't tell me about addiction. Or that caffeine is so bad. If you are so damn clean, stop eating sugar. Go on a low-carb diet. Talk to me in three months.

And yes, I am using this to justify use of caffeine. Before you say


Sugar isn't a drug. There is no officially or not. I like how you try and use something that your body needs to justify your use of something the body doesn't. and the fact that you used a sarcastic page from rotten is what really makes it amazing. Oh shit you mean things I put in my body affect it? STOP THE PRESSES. I like how you are grasping at anything trying to justify your use of a substance you don't need and is an additive to most things, based purely on the fact that it's a stimulant.




So sugar isn't getting you high? Get over yourself, that is my point.
sugar isn't a drug, so by definition, no it isn't. You don't have a point. You never did.

[XAngry CodgerX]

you are seriously one of the dumbest people I've ever encountered. Let's do this line by line then, since you're such a moron.


Like I said idiot. All that article shows is that a part of the brain lights up when craving happens. Craving food, completely and totally biological and normal. SHOCKING!

*Laughs in disbelief*





Yeah because there is a giant marijuana lobby pushing their pot agenda. And let's not forget the major anti caffeine lobby too. I like how you live in this world where real evidence is provided and you just dismiss it, not based on other data, but because you assume bias. You haven't actually established bias, you just assume it.

There is a giant marijuana lobby pushing their ideals. Fuckface! There is! Look that up too. Oh and you are my major anti-caffeine lobby.





Actually I did. if you go back and look right below this, you'll see your own words you idiot.



Ok. so addictions are good things to have? I'm talking about chemical dependence. I'm talking about recreational drug use. There are positives with drinking a glass of wine with dinner, which has no downside, but to you that's wrong. That's not consistent.

So you endorse a glass of wine for dinner? Which could lead to a chemical dependence to alcohol. Hella edge, hella. And of course, right along with your method of ideaology.





You were the one trying to call other people immature?

What? *laughs again*





No, I actually pointed out where it wasn't relevent. You just make statements, but don't back them up. LIke your bias bullshit.

I backed up my statement about food and sugar with FOUR different articles. You just didn't read them. Plus my background in fitness and fitness training wouldn't make me any more knowledgable? *laughs more*






http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=illicit

the respected dictionary disagrees with you. Also, alcohol and nicotine don't go against that definition. They are part of the accepted morality. nice try though.


Wow, you aren't totally stupid. Maybe just a little slow. Codger 20, sec 1......



How is it any different than using an opiate for pain killing or any other number of things? Given the way it's prescribed and to who, why would I have a problem with it? You're the one that says I'm all hung up on drug drug drug. Caffeine is use medicinally in painkillers. If you're taking them medicinally, why would I have a problem with it? You're not talking about medicinal use though, you're talking about recreational. There's a difference. Weren't you the one trying to talk about using morphine for pain killling? Jesus, be consistant. you're all over the map jitters.

Oh so taking caffeine to help focus is not medicinally? Is taking Ritalin for ADD medicinally? So kids shouldn't take Ritalin to help them focus? *continues laughing*

So because it isn't prescribed, I shouldn't. Doctors are the only ones who know anything? You aren't one, yet you think you're an expert.




Kind of kills your rhetoric since it's less addictive and you dont need detox clinics for it.

Rhetoric, good word. Get that from the dictionary too? *laughs*. You just said that alcohol was less addictive and doesn't require detox to get off of. For you it didn't. You must still be drunk.....




ok great, now how about actually answering the questions. I'll put them here again for you

"So why is caffeine ok? because you like it? So drugs are bad, except caffeine. What criteria do you use so that we can apply against anything new that comes along? Why exactly are other things bad? What side effects are ok? What can I be chemically addicted to?"

Dude, I answered that question completely. I have told you why I think caffeine is ok. Can't you read, or are to blinded by your anger to see it? Don't go away mad, just go away......

Oh and I endorse your addiction to sugar completely. Go on with your bad self.




It's a benighn substance that leads to addiction, can lead to medical problems? Do you know what benign means?

here, I'll save you the trouble "3 a : of a mild type or character that does not threaten health or life <a benign tumor> b : having no significant effect :"

hm. nope doesn't fit.

Hm, sugar, something people need to survive, caffeine a stimulant added to things. yeah, i can see how you could make the comparison. The irony here is, weren't you the one waiting for people to bring up refined sugar?

People do need sugar to survive. But since you think you know everything, let me break it down for you. Then you can look past this too, retard.

The body can break down ANY food and convert it to glucose. The look on your face tells me you don't know what glucose is. Ok, glucose is the only thing that the body can use for energy. Oh, that fired you up, I might prove your point. Oh, oh, no.... If you ate a diet of strictly protein and fats (Atkins), you can still function. In fact, your body would eventually adapt to that diet and you would function at a completely normal level, all the while not ingesting 10 grams of sugars a day and no refined sugars. CAN YOU READ AND RESPOND TO THAT???????




Sugar isn't a drug. There is no officially or not. I like how you try and use something that your body needs to justify your use of something the body doesn't. and the fact that you used a sarcastic page from rotten is what really makes it amazing. Oh shit you mean things I put in my body affect it? STOP THE PRESSES. I like how you are grasping at anything trying to justify your use of a substance you don't need and is an additive to most things, based purely on the fact that it's a stimulant.

Your dumb ass said - "Sugar isn't a drug. There is no officially or not." Ok, then why is it not. Because you won't accept it. Until an expert (in your eyes, so yourself) tells you otherwise. Lets see. It activates the same receptors in the brain that some drugs do. It causes euphoria. It causes hangovers. Ever eaten a huge meal and awaken the next morning to being groggy. Similiar to an alcoholic hangover? Alcohol, by the way, is VERY close chemically to sugar. But you wouldn't know that either. Oh and take away the sarcastic page from rotten, the other two go along way to backing up my point.




sugar isn't a drug, so by definition, no it isn't. You don't have a point. You never did.

Define drug then. Then compare it to sugar and its effects. Drug? Yes!!! Oh but it could never be, because you put it in your body, willingly. Why the fuck do you eat cake, because it tastes good. Dude, recreational use of cake is bad news. You jack-edger.

Now, you can continue to argue and look stupid if you want. Its okay. I obviously have done nothing to convince you that your distaste for caffeine is nothing more that paranoia. It is also backed by your own feeling of insecurity and the need to worry about other people. You are a crusader dude and with your intelligence, you could change the world. Then again, if people come to this page and immediately wonder why you are telling them they aren't edge by not meeting your certain criteria, then maybe you won't. You'll just be preaching to a bunch of straightedge people all your life.

"Hi, I drink sodas and tea and am addicted to caffeine. My buddy here thinks he is more edge than me because he doesn't." I say, the interviewer asks, "Why do you think that is." I say, "I dunno, maybe he has nothing better to do with his life."

So, shhhhhh........

[xsecx]

There is a giant marijuana lobby pushing their ideals. Fuckface! There is! Look that up too. Oh and you are my major anti-caffeine lobby.


idoit. you're claiming the study I posted was funded by a lobby? Why, because in your head it must be. Do you provide any proof of this? No, no you don't. Why don't you? because you don't have it.




So you endorse a glass of wine for dinner? Which could lead to a chemical dependence to alcohol. Hella edge, hella. And of course, right along with your method of ideaology.


Simple reading fundamentals would be helpful to you. Following your logic, a glass of wine would be ok. following mine, it wouldn't. god you're a moron.



I backed up my statement about food and sugar with FOUR different articles. You just didn't read them. Plus my background in fitness and fitness training wouldn't make me any more knowledgable? *laughs more*


wow, four different articles saying that food interacts with the body! HOLY SHIT, BREAKTHROUGH. especially since one of the articles you posted was satire. You're clearly not knowledgible, hence the resorting to *laughs more* rather than making actual points.



Wow, you aren't totally stupid. Maybe just a little slow. Codger 20, sec 1......


translation, oh shit, he was actually right, I'm not. now how do I explain why caffeine is ok but alcohol and nicotine aren't, because they're not illicit.....



Oh so taking caffeine to help focus is not medicinally? Is taking Ritalin for ADD medicinally? So kids shouldn't take Ritalin to help them focus? *continues laughing*


Do you're taking pills and regulate it? oh wait, you're not. you're drinking things. Again, your jitters are getting out of hand. keep focus, you must not be on enough caffeine, time to up the dose.





So because it isn't prescribed, I shouldn't. Doctors are the only ones who know anything? You aren't one, yet you think you're an expert.


no, because you're trying to use it as an excuse as to why you consume it and this just like all your other bullshit is full of holes.




Rhetoric, good word. Get that from the dictionary too? *laughs*. You just said that alcohol was less addictive and doesn't require detox to get off of. For you it didn't. You must still be drunk.....


Can you even read? seriously? This is all you have left to resort to?




Dude, I answered that question completely. I have told you why I think caffeine is ok. Can't you read, or are to blinded by your anger to see it? Don't go away mad, just go away......

Oh and I endorse your addiction to sugar completely. Go on with your bad self.


Actually you haven't. You've failed to tell me in basic terms why caffeine is ok and other things aren't. You keep skirting things you know you can't answer.






People do need sugar to survive. But since you think you know everything, let me break it down for you. Then you can look past this too, retard.

The body can break down ANY food and convert it to glucose. The look on your face tells me you don't know what glucose is. Ok, glucose is the only thing that the body can use for energy. Oh, that fired you up, I might prove your point. Oh, oh, no.... If you ate a diet of strictly protein and fats (Atkins), you can still function. In fact, your body would eventually adapt to that diet and you would function at a completely normal level, all the while not ingesting 10 grams of sugars a day and no refined sugars. CAN YOU READ AND RESPOND TO THAT???????


Any your point is what? If you ate a diet of strictly protein and fat you would die. Your kidney and your liver would give out and you'd die. Not to mention going without all the shit like vitamins that go along with things that have sugar in them. But then again all of this is irrelevant, since the whole point of this is some contrived attempt for you to justify why you want to use a drug, so you're forced to try to bring up something completely irrelevant to it to try and help you from floudering more, which it doesn't help.



Your dumb ass said - "Sugar isn't a drug. There is no officially or not." Ok, then why is it not. Because you won't accept it. Until an expert (in your eyes, so yourself) tells you otherwise. Lets see. It activates the same receptors in the brain that some drugs do. It causes euphoria. It causes hangovers. Ever eaten a huge meal and awaken the next morning to being groggy. Similiar to an alcoholic hangover? Alcohol, by the way, is VERY close chemically to sugar. But you wouldn't know that either. Oh and take away the sarcastic page from rotten, the other two go along way to backing up my point.


sweet jesus you're an idiot. sugar isn't a drug. there are criteria for something to be a drug and sugar doens't fit it. you can really want water to be a drug too, since we're all addicted to it, but that doesn't make it so.




Define drug then. Then compare it to sugar and its effects. Drug? Yes!!! Oh but it could never be, because you put it in your body, willingly. Why the fuck do you eat cake, because it tastes good. Dude, recreational use of cake is bad news. You jack-edger.


oh shit! you totally don't have a point and are reaching for anything at this point to justify your dumb ass habit!



Now, you can continue to argue and look stupid if you want. Its okay. I obviously have done nothing to convince you that your distaste for caffeine is nothing more that paranoia. It is also backed by your own feeling of insecurity and the need to worry about other people. You are a crusader dude and with your intelligence, you could change the world. Then again, if people come to this page and immediately wonder why you are telling them they aren't edge by not meeting your certain criteria, then maybe you won't. You'll just be preaching to a bunch of straightedge people all your life.


I think you've missed the point as to who between us is the one that looks stupid here. You're living your life according to standards that don't even make sense to you. When questioned about these standards you react like a child when confronted with actual science and proof. you're acting like a spoiled brat.



"Hi, I drink sodas and tea and am addicted to caffeine. My buddy here thinks he is more edge than me because he doesn't." I say, the interviewer asks, "Why do you think that is." I say, "I dunno, maybe he has nothing better to do with his life."



the thing is, the only person who's said anything about being more edge than anyone here is you. just like with veganism and refined sugar. You're a hypocrit on so many levels that it boggles my mind how you're able to function in life.

[XAngry CodgerX]

idoit. you're claiming the study I posted was funded by a lobby? Why, because in your head it must be. Do you provide any proof of this? No, no you don't. Why don't you? because you don't have it.

When did I say it was funded by a lobby? I did say it was biased. Not funded by lobby. Whoa.





Simple reading fundamentals would be helpful to you. Following your logic, a glass of wine would be ok. following mine, it wouldn't. god you're a moron.

I am talking about caffeine and its relation to SxE. A glass of wine is ok for someone if they can handle it. Most people can't. Find me a person who is in rehab for caffeine addiction.




wow, four different articles saying that food interacts with the body! HOLY SHIT, BREAKTHROUGH. especially since one of the articles you posted was satire. You're clearly not knowledgible, hence the resorting to *laughs more* rather than making actual points.

Interaction. Chemical reaction in the body. They are the same. Food interacts with the body on many different levels, dumbass. You are a blind motherfucker.








Do you're taking pills and regulate it? oh wait, you're not. you're drinking things. Again, your jitters are getting out of hand. keep focus, you must not be on enough caffeine, time to up the dose.

So if I go to the doc and he says that he isn't going to prescribe my anything, just to drink some coffee on a moderate basis, that is wrong too. You keep focus, assclown.






no, because you're trying to use it as an excuse as to why you consume it and this just like all your other bullshit is full of holes.

Learn how to collect your thoughts before you spout off. The above makes no sense to me.





Can you even read? seriously? This is all you have left to resort to?

Hey, you are the one who wrote that you didn't need detox to get off of an alcohol addiction, not me.





Actually you haven't. You've failed to tell me in basic terms why caffeine is ok and other things aren't. You keep skirting things you know you can't answer.

Actually, I did. I said because it increases mental focus. And increases mental focus is a good thing. What else do you need. I think you need and interpreter.






Any your point is what? If you ate a diet of strictly protein and fat you would die. Your kidney and your liver would give out and you'd die. Not to mention going without all the shit like vitamins that go along with things that have sugar in them. But then again all of this is irrelevant, since the whole point of this is some contrived attempt for you to justify why you want to use a drug, so you're forced to try to bring up something completely irrelevant to it to try and help you from floudering more, which it doesn't help.

Now this has to be the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. You said "if you ate a diet of strictly protein and fat you would die." Fucking moron. Thats what the basic atkins diet is. Have you even heard of the atkins diet. If you have, what does it do? How does it do it? Oh, you obviously don't know. Don't argue with me about nutrition, diet and fitness. I will make you look like an idiot all day.

What vitamins do we need from things that contain sugar that we can't get from other foods. Do I need to make you look like a bigger idiot?




sweet jesus you're an idiot. sugar isn't a drug. there are criteria for something to be a drug and sugar doens't fit it. you can really want water to be a drug too, since we're all addicted to it, but that doesn't make it so.

Sugar isn't a drug in your half-closed eyes. Are you jumping up and down throwing a fit yet?

No, smart guy, I wouldn't classify water as a drug, because it has none of the effects on the body that sugar does. We strictly need it. Why do you think people flavor it. Because it tasted like nothing. No water fiends that I know of.





oh shit! you totally don't have a point and are reaching for anything at this point to justify your dumb ass habit!

I already justified my "habit.' Just as you justified your sugar habit. "It has vitamins and other shit that we need." Eloquent.




I think you've missed the point as to who between us is the one that looks stupid here. You're living your life according to standards that don't even make sense to you. When questioned about these standards you react like a child when confronted with actual science and proof. you're acting like a spoiled brat.

And there you go, you just said it. You think I don't know what straightedge is. Implying that by drinking beverages containing caffeine, I somehow have broken my oath. You have no clue.





the thing is, the only person who's said anything about being more edge than anyone here is you. just like with veganism and refined sugar. You're a hypocrit on so many levels that it boggles my mind how you're able to function in life.

Dude that was in jest. Like, gee lets have a thread on why Vegans shouldn't eat refined sugar due to the connection it has to animal torture. Do you know the connection it does have? I'll explain it a different way - The discussion on caffeine and its correlation to the SxE lifestyle is the same as the discussion of refined sugars and its correlation to the Vegan lifestyle. Assinine.

Is that clear enough for you? Probably not.

[straightXed]

So you endorse a glass of wine for dinner? Which could lead to a chemical dependence to alcohol. Hella edge, hella. And of course, right along with your method of ideaology.
I didn't notice any endorsement, but see how you talked about the wine leading to chemical dependence, you know what that reminds me of? The recreational use of caffiene.













I backed up my statement about food and sugar with FOUR different articles. You just didn't read them. Plus my background in fitness and fitness training wouldn't make me any more knowledgable? *laughs more*


With your background i thought you would be able to distinguish between what is and is not a drug.











Oh so taking caffeine to help focus is not medicinally? Is taking Ritalin for ADD medicinally? So kids shouldn't take Ritalin to help them focus? *continues laughing*
Having ADD and treating it is a world away from drinking coffee in the morning or filling yourself with caffinated soda to stay awake on a drive home - usage is a relevent issue in the consumption of caffiene.



So because it isn't prescribed, I shouldn't. Doctors are the only ones who know anything? You aren't one, yet you think you're an expert. Doctors prescribe all kinds of drugs in relation to what their patient needs what they don't do is presribe drugs for recreational use, we are talking about caffiene and its recreational usage.














Oh and I endorse your addiction to sugar completely. Go on with your bad self.


I'm addicted to air its still not recreational drug usage.









Your dumb ass said - "Sugar isn't a drug. There is no officially or not." Ok, then why is it not. Because you won't accept it. Until an expert (in your eyes, so yourself) tells you otherwise. Lets see. It activates the same receptors in the brain that some drugs do. It causes euphoria. It causes hangovers. Ever eaten a huge meal and awaken the next morning to being groggy. Similiar to an alcoholic hangover? Alcohol, by the way, is VERY close chemically to sugar. But you wouldn't know that either. Oh and take away the sarcastic page from rotten, the other two go along way to backing up my point.


Plenty of things can give you this effect, things that aren't drugs. So digesting heavy meals over night is drug abuse, thats priceless.









"Hi, I drink sodas and tea and am addicted to caffeine. My buddy here thinks he is more edge than me because he doesn't." I say, the interviewer asks, "Why do you think that is." I say, "I dunno, maybe he has nothing better to do with his life."

So, shhhhhh........

you have a make believe interviewer and expect people to take you seriously.

[xsecx]

When did I say it was funded by a lobby? I did say it was biased. Not funded by lobby. Whoa.


You're saying it's biased without any proof and eluded that it must be biased based on funding.




I am talking about caffeine and its relation to SxE. A glass of wine is ok for someone if they can handle it. Most people can't. Find me a person who is in rehab for caffeine addiction.


Most people can't handle a glass of wine? Based on what? Find me a person who is in rehab from drinking a glass of wine with dinner. If your criteria is based purely on negative effects vs positive, then why isn't a glass of wine ok? If you use too much alcohol there are negative effects. If you use too much caffeine there are negative effects. How is it any different?




Interaction. Chemical reaction in the body. They are the same. Food interacts with the body on many different levels, dumbass. You are a blind motherfucker.


wow really? food stimulates the brain! of course, they don't actually DO the same thing as the drugs. they don't effect the body in the same way or even close, but since they effect the same part of the brain, they somehow must be linked, even though you must have missed the part in EVERY article you posted about where they talk about how no hard link has actually been found and that it's all theoretical. RIF.




So if I go to the doc and he says that he isn't going to prescribe my anything, just to drink some coffee on a moderate basis, that is wrong too. You keep focus, assclown.


On a moderate basis for what? things you could achieve without the need for an added chemical? Or do you NEED caffeine to keep focus?




Learn how to collect your thoughts before you spout off. The above makes no sense to me.


reading is fundamental.




Hey, you are the one who wrote that you didn't need detox to get off of an alcohol addiction, not me.


ok. so people are on methadone to get off of alcohol? oh shit, a news flash again. you're a wealth of knowledge.






Actually, I did. I said because it increases mental focus. And increases mental focus is a good thing. What else do you need. I think you need and interpreter.


lots of other drugs increases mental focus. Cocaine and speed among them. So they're ok too? Why is caffeine ok, but speed and cocaine aren't? Are all toxic if enough is used. All have side effects. All cause addiction.





Now this has to be the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. You said "if you ate a diet of strictly protein and fat you would die." Fucking moron. Thats what the basic atkins diet is. Have you even heard of the atkins diet. If you have, what does it do? How does it do it? Oh, you obviously don't know. Don't argue with me about nutrition, diet and fitness. I will make you look like an idiot all day.


http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/advisory.html complete with sources at the bottom. Ketosis causes liver and kidney damage if used long term. Seriously. shut up. You're not a smart man. And you're trying to bring up shit that has nothing to do with what's actually being discussed. if you want to talk about atkins and how it works, fine, make a new thread. knock yourself out. Smoke and mirrors?



What vitamins do we need from things that contain sugar that we can't get from other foods. Do I need to make you look like a bigger idiot?


major source of vitamin c is what? major source of calcium and vitamin a and d are what?
if this is your wheelhouse, it's pretty sad because even in this realm you don't really know that much, I hope people aren't dumb enough to actually pay you for it.





Sugar isn't a drug in your half-closed eyes. Are you jumping up and down throwing a fit yet?


sugar isn't a drug in science or medicines eyes you idiot.



No, smart guy, I wouldn't classify water as a drug, because it has none of the effects on the body that sugar does. We strictly need it. Why do you think people flavor it. Because it tasted like nothing. No water fiends that I know of.


No, it effects the body other ways. but water isn't a drug in your half closed eyes. Now how exactly does this relate to your use of caffeine to maintain focus?





I already justified my "habit.' Just as you justified your sugar habit. "It has vitamins and other shit that we need." Eloquent.


no you haven't. you keep saying the same flawed things. that doesn't equate to justifying it. if you tell a lie enough times it doesn't suddenly become the truth. and seriously, you're not one to talk about eloquence.





And there you go, you just said it. You think I don't know what straightedge is. Implying that by drinking beverages containing caffeine, I somehow have broken my oath. You have no clue.


Or you have no clue as to what you're actually making an oath to. Yuu're telling me you need a substance that's an addictive, added stimulatant.




Dude that was in jest. Like, gee lets have a thread on why Vegans shouldn't eat refined sugar due to the connection it has to animal torture. Do you know the connection it does have? I'll explain it a different way - The discussion on caffeine and its correlation to the SxE lifestyle is the same as the discussion of refined sugars and its correlation to the Vegan lifestyle. Assinine.

Is that clear enough for you? Probably not.

No jackass, you were making assumptions that when proved false led to this. actually the discussion of using a drug recreationally has quite a bit to do with the sxe lifestyle, just as talking about using sugar refined with animal products (bones) has with veganism. You're just an idiot who doesn't like to look at his own behavior and just wants to be able to do whatever he wants even if it doesn't actually make sense within your own structure.

[XAngry CodgerX]

You're saying it's biased without any proof and eluded that it must be biased based on funding.

Yes.





Most people can't handle a glass of wine? Based on what? Find me a person who is in rehab from drinking a glass of wine with dinner. If your criteria is based purely on negative effects vs positive, then why isn't a glass of wine ok? If you use too much alcohol there are negative effects. If you use too much caffeine there are negative effects. How is it any different?

Yes.





wow really? food stimulates the brain! of course, they don't actually DO the same thing as the drugs. they don't effect the body in the same way or even close, but since they effect the same part of the brain, they somehow must be linked, even though you must have missed the part in EVERY article you posted about where they talk about how no hard link has actually been found and that it's all theoretical. RIF.

Yes!!!!





On a moderate basis for what? things you could achieve without the need for an added chemical? Or do you NEED caffeine to keep focus?

Exactly.





reading is fundamental.

Hukt n phoniks....





ok. so people are on methadone to get off of alcohol? oh shit, a news flash again. you're a wealth of knowledge.

As you would say,"Translates to, your are correct, codger."






l
ots of other drugs increases mental focus. Cocaine and speed among them. So they're ok too? Why is caffeine ok, but speed and cocaine aren't? Are all toxic if enough is used. All have side effects. All cause addiction.

Right. All things I have agreed with you on. Only caffeines effects all the way around are only fractions of those other two you listed. You can become sick from too much Vitamin E. Or too much water for that matter.






http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/advisory.html complete with sources at the bottom. Ketosis causes liver and kidney damage if used long term. Seriously. shut up. You're not a smart man. And you're trying to bring up shit that has nothing to do with what's actually being discussed. if you want to talk about atkins and how it works, fine, make a new thread. knock yourself out. Smoke and mirrors?

There is more at work here. Ketosis is the byproduct of fat breakdown. Ketones are present in everyones blood if you eat fatty foods. Ketosis only causes liver and kidney damage in people that are predisposed to those diseases.




major source of vitamin c is what? Uh, Broccoli, which contains a fraction of a gram of sugars.


major source of calcium and vitamin a and d are what?

Broccoli is a major source of calcium. Vitamin A, Carrots. Vitamin D, the sun is the main source of Vitamin D.


if this is your wheelhouse, it's pretty sad because even in this realm you don't really know that much, I hope people aren't dumb enough to actually pay you for it.

In fact I do know more than you. You only have studies to go by. I have both real world experience and studies.






sugar isn't a drug in science or medicines eyes you idiot.

Yes....




No, it effects the body other ways. but water isn't a drug in your half closed eyes. Now how exactly does this relate to your use of caffeine to maintain focus?

Of course water isn't a drug. Or even thought of by one person that I can think of or have ever talked to. You made up the water reference.






no you haven't. you keep saying the same flawed things. that doesn't equate to justifying it. if you tell a lie enough times it doesn't suddenly become the truth. and seriously, you're not one to talk about eloquence.

I just haven't justified it in your eyes. Which at this point, isn't even why I am writing this, it is just to piss you off.






Or you have no clue as to what you're actually making an oath to. Yuu're telling me you need a substance that's an addictive, added stimulatant.

Don't talk to me about oath or any other bullshit. I don't need caffeine. It helps me focus when I think I want a jumpstart. I just don't think it is a evil as you do. And I do think that someone can be straightedge and ingest caffeine. Just as I can use mouthwash, or use soy sauce on my rice. Or take morophine if I am in the hospital for a major injury.





No jackass, you were making assumptions that when proved false led to this. actually the discussion of using a drug recreationally has quite a bit to do with the sxe lifestyle, just as talking about using sugar refined with animal products (bones) has with veganism. You're just an idiot who doesn't like to look at his own behavior and just wants to be able to do whatever he wants even if it doesn't actually make sense within your own structure.

I've looked at my own behavior fuckass. I'll be damned if some internet dork who thinks he has all the answers is going to tell me I (and alot of other SxE adults and kids) that I am wrong for drinking a cup of coffee. You aren't god and you have no right to say that "I should look at my behaviour and choices". Your a pompous fuck and a no one to me. If you want to compare scene points, lets do it. Well, tell me how SxE you are and who made you the SxE judge.

[XAngry CodgerX]

I didn't notice any endorsement, but see how you talked about the wine leading to chemical dependence, you know what that reminds me of? The recreational use of caffiene.

I never said caffeine was not addictive. Please understand that. I merely am stating that although caffeine is classified as a drug, I do not believe that there is anything more wrong with it than gourging yourself with a donut everymorning. I am not here to argue its status. If I was to use it for anything else other that a means to focus, I would be an ignorant. It does nothing else positive and if used properly, has very few side effects.




With your background i thought you would be able to distinguish between what is and is not a drug.

I can. And I do. Once again, I used that as leverage for my argument.











Having ADD and treating it is a world away from drinking coffee in the morning or filling yourself with caffinated soda to stay awake on a drive home - usage is a relevent issue in the consumption of caffiene.

I agree totally. Usage is a relevant issue. There are doses where the positive effects are enhanced and the negative effects are minimized.



Doctors prescribe all kinds of drugs in relation to what their patient needs what they don't do is presribe drugs for recreational use, we are talking about caffiene and its recreational usage.

Maybe I am hung up on the phrase, "recreational usage." When that phrase is used, I picture dudes sitting around the beach campfire blazing the bong, or sitting around snorting lines at a party. Not drinking a cup of coffee.






I'm addicted to air its still not recreational drug usage.

Come on, that is a bad example. If you don't breathe you die. Plain and simple. Very bad example.





Plenty of things can give you this effect, things that aren't drugs. So digesting heavy meals over night is drug abuse, thats priceless.

I think you misunderstood me. I am saying that you can get a hangover from a large meal eaten before bed. Or a large amount of sugar laden foods. The effect from foods, I will always maintain, is one like that of some drugs, that is all I am saying.




you have a make believe interviewer and expect people to take you seriously.

Yeah, maybe I was a little out of control there....

[xsecx]

Yes.






Yes.






Yes!!!!






Exactly.






Hukt n phoniks....






As you would say,"Translates to, your are correct, codger."



all of the above clearly demonstrates that you're an idiot. and you're not actually capable of saying things and back them up.





Right. All things I have agreed with you on. Only caffeines effects all the way around are only fractions of those other two you listed. You can become sick from too much Vitamin E. Or too much water for that matter.


but yet there are side effects. What would be an ok dosage of cocaine? or meth? Is any amount ok?







There is more at work here. Ketosis is the byproduct of fat breakdown. Ketones are present in everyones blood if you eat fatty foods. Ketosis only causes liver and kidney damage in people that are predisposed to those diseases.


funny that you're able to state something as fact that is still up in the air and that long term studies are being done to find out. Like I said, if you want to discuss it, make another topic.



Uh, Broccoli, which contains a fraction of a gram of sugars.


Yet it contains sugars and also isn't the preferred source.



Broccoli is a major source of calcium. Vitamin A, Carrots. Vitamin D, the sun is the main source of Vitamin D.


Broccoli contains sugar. carrots, sugar. milk, sugar. wow you showed me.



In fact I do know more than you. You only have studies to go by. I have both real world experience and studies.


a claim. like most you've made, you haven't actually backed up or demonstrated.






Of course water isn't a drug. Or even thought of by one person that I can think of or have ever talked to. You made up the water reference.


of course sugar isn't a drug. or even thought of by any professional.







I just haven't justified it in your eyes. Which at this point, isn't even why I am writing this, it is just to piss you off.


you're not doing a very good job if you think this is what it takes to piss me off or upset me.




Don't talk to me about oath or any other bullshit. I don't need caffeine. It helps me focus when I think I want a jumpstart. I just don't think it is a evil as you do. And I do think that someone can be straightedge and ingest caffeine. Just as I can use mouthwash, or use soy sauce on my rice. Or take morophine if I am in the hospital for a major injury.


how can you say this with a straight face and actually believe it? The funny thing is, I don't think caffeine is evil. I don't think alcohol is evil. I don't think marijuana is evil. I think they're substances that can be abused. I think saying you're drug free and using them is hypocritical. I do think you're a hypocrite and not very smart.







I've looked at my own behavior fuckass. I'll be damned if some internet dork who thinks he has all the answers is going to tell me I (and alot of other SxE adults and kids) that I am wrong for drinking a cup of coffee. You aren't god and you have no right to say that "I should look at my behaviour and choices". Your a pompous fuck and a no one to me. If you want to compare scene points, lets do it. Well, tell me how SxE you are and who made you the SxE judge.

Then you're either in denial of the truth or you really are that stupid. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume denial. Now who's the one who's upset?

[XAngry CodgerX]

but yet there are side effects. What would be an ok dosage of cocaine? or meth? Is any amount ok?

No amount of those two is okay.








funny that you're able to state something as fact that is still up in the air and that long term studies are being done to find out. Like I said, if you want to discuss it, make another topic.

So the studies you quoted are still up in the air? Okay.




Yet it contains sugars and also isn't the preferred source.

Come on, it isn't YOUR preferred source.




Broccoli contains sugar. carrots, sugar. milk, sugar. wow you showed me.

Again, read above.




a claim. like most you've made, you haven't actually backed up or demonstrated.

Heh, I have outlined many things that have shown my knowledge. We are arguing about who is smarter now. Fuck this, lets bust out the IQ test.






of course sugar isn't a drug. or even thought of by any professional.

LISTEN! I didn't say it was. I said it does many of the same things that some drugs do, including addiction and it has side effects, such as weight gain. Or heart disease. Or diabetes. The list goes on.








you're not doing a very good job if you think this is what it takes to piss me off or upset me.

Sorry, I'll try harder.




how can you say this with a straight face and actually believe it? The funny thing is, I don't think caffeine is evil. I don't think alcohol is evil. I don't think marijuana is evil. I think they're substances that can be abused. I think saying you're drug free and using them is hypocritical. I do think you're a hypocrite and not very smart.

So you think me and anyone else is a hypocrite who drinks coffee or drinks sodas willingly? Cool, see, thats all you had to say. I still maintain that you have a right to have that opinion and I have a right not to agree.




Then you're either in denial of the truth or you really are that stupid. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume denial. Now who's the one who's upset?

The above statement is not the truth. Not by a long shot. It is your truth.

When my buddy was in the hospital, he used Morophine. So I guess he is still drug free. So esentially you are saying that the recreational use of caffeine (as you put it) makes me not drug free or straightedge or at the very least a hypocrite. So when I was given Vicodin for a major injury, even though it was the one thing that would kill the pain and I took it, I am not drug free, because ultimately it was my choice?

[xsecx]

No amount of those two is okay.


because of what criteria? because you said so?





So the studies you quoted are still up in the air? Okay.


no the long term effects on the population are unknown. If you can say otherwise, then please enlighten. What is known is that some amount of people who went on atkins suffered kidney and liver problems.




Come on, it isn't YOUR preferred source.

Again, read above.


and still doesn't meet you're own bullshit, it all contains sugar, carrots contain a ton of sugar. you go on tangents to take the focus off of the thing you can't actually argue.





Heh, I have outlined many things that have shown my knowledge. We are arguing about who is smarter now. Fuck this, lets bust out the IQ test.


you've outlined but failed to demonstrate. you make claims and acqusations without proof. how exactly have you shown your knowledge?






LISTEN! I didn't say it was. I said it does many of the same things that some drugs do, including addiction and it has side effects, such as weight gain. Or heart disease. Or diabetes. The list goes on.


so we can ignore your whole tangent about sugar then? Do you even understand what addiction is? I honestly, and I being serious here, don't think you do. You throw the word around pretty easily and you do it with things that can't be chemically addictive.






Sorry, I'll try harder.


so far, no luck. but I guess you're probably well acquainted with failure at this point in your life.





So you think me and anyone else is a hypocrite who drinks coffee or drinks sodas willingly? Cool, see, thats all you had to say. I still maintain that you have a right to have that opinion and I have a right not to agree.


if they claim to be against drug use, and use a drug, then yes, they're a hypocrite.



The above statement is not the truth. Not by a long shot. It is your truth.


no it actually is the truth and it's a pretty simple one even according to you. caffeine is a drug. you're against recreational drug use, yet you use a drug recreationally. how exactly isn't that hypocritical? oh, because it's you and your drug and not someone else.




When my buddy was in the hospital, he used Morophine. So I guess he is still drug free. So esentially you are saying that the recreational use of caffeine (as you put it) makes me not drug free or straightedge or at the very least a hypocrite. So when I was given Vicodin for a major injury, even though it was the one thing that would kill the pain and I took it, I am not drug free, because ultimately it was my choice?

do you honestly not undertand the difference between medicinal use and recreational use? I will explain it in simpler terms if I have to. Or is this just another one of your attempts to shift focus?

[XAngry CodgerX]

because of what criteria? because you said so?

Sure. And you said so.






no the long term effects on the population are unknown. If you can say otherwise, then please enlighten. What is known is that some amount of people who went on atkins suffered kidney and liver problems.

That is what I am saying. The long term effects are unknown. As of now, some people have developed kidney problems and liver problems. What I am saying, is that it is possible and LIKELY that they were already predisposed to those problems.





and still doesn't meet you're own bullshit, it all contains sugar, carrots contain a ton of sugar. you go on tangents to take the focus off of the thing you can't actually argue.

Once again, don't go there. Carrots contain alot of sugar, for a vegetable. They contain a fraction of what an apple or an orange would. Don't even start. There is much more to it than you know.





you've outlined but failed to demonstrate. you make claims and acqusations without proof. how exactly have you shown your knowledge?




Diet and exercise. I understand the effects caffeine can and does have. I outlined how the body can convert any nutrient to blood sugar. I could spout off big words all day, but they won't do you any good. I understand how to lose weight. How to maintain it. We don't have time for it all. Or the place.







so we can ignore your whole tangent about sugar then? Do you even understand what addiction is? I honestly, and I being serious here, don't think you do. You throw the word around pretty easily and you do it with things that can't be chemically addictive

I am saying, based on the evidence I have read and from what I have witnessed, sugar has the same effect on your brain chemistry as some drugs do. And that sugar can and is addictive. I maintain that.







so far, no luck. but I guess you're probably well acquainted with failure at this point in your life.

Come on, you don't know me from the next fuckhead on this board.





if they claim to be against drug use, and use a drug, then yes, they're a hypocrite.

Cool.




no it actually is the truth and it's a pretty simple one even according to you. caffeine is a drug. you're against recreational drug use, yet you use a drug recreationally. how exactly isn't that hypocritical? oh, because it's you and your drug and not someone else.

Guilty as charged.





do you honestly not undertand the difference between medicinal use and recreational use? I will explain it in simpler terms if I have to. Or is this just another one of your attempts to shift focus?

See above.

[xsecx]

Sure. And you said so.



come on now, you're supposed to be annoying me, keep up. I mean, if you're going to half ass it, take some more caffeine, get more focus and keep going.




That is what I am saying. The long term effects are unknown. As of now, some people have developed kidney problems and liver problems. What I am saying, is that it is possible and LIKELY that they were already predisposed to those problems.


actually you said that "Oh, oh, no.... If you ate a diet of strictly protein and fats (Atkins), you can still function. In fact, your body would eventually adapt to that diet and you would function at a completely normal level," so you just contradicted yourself. but again, this is off topic.




Once again, don't go there. Carrots contain alot of sugar, for a vegetable. They contain a fraction of what an apple or an orange would. Don't even start. There is much more to it than you know.


well you either can live without sugar or you can't. again, this is your wack argument to take attention off of your faulty logic.




Diet and exercise. I understand the effects caffeine can and does have. I outlined how the body can convert any nutrient to blood sugar. I could spout off big words all day, but they won't do you any good. I understand how to lose weight. How to maintain it. We don't have time for it all. Or the place.


And yet you continue to bring it up as if it's somehow relevant.




I am saying, based on the evidence I have read and from what
I have witnessed, sugar has the same effect on your brain chemistry as some drugs do. And that sugar can and is addictive. I maintain that.


What evidence? How can you witness what effect sugar has on the brain exactly? How can you witness that in comparison to some drugs? How is sugar addictive? Especially considering it isn't chemically addictive and behavioral addiction is completely up in the air and almost impossible to prove.





Come on, you don't know me from the next fuckhead on this board.


did I hit a nerve?






Cool.


Guilty as charged.


See above.

and at least we've reached a point of agreement that you're a hypocrite and not a very smart one.

[XAngry CodgerX]

I will continue to drink soda, coffee and tea, all of which contain caffeine. There are those of us in the straightedge community who believe this is a non-issue.

You believe it is. Thats your right. Please respect others beliefs, especially someone who is on your side.

Thanks.

[straightXed]

I never said caffeine was not addictive. Please understand that. I merely am stating that although caffeine is classified as a drug, I do not believe that there is anything more wrong with it than gourging yourself with a donut everymorning. I am not here to argue its status. If I was to use it for anything else other that a means to focus, I would be an ignorant. It does nothing else positive and if used properly, has very few side effects.
So there was no endorsement of the usage of wine, that was your projection, you also seem to ignore the fact that people use caffeine in a very different way to sugar and theres no reason why a perfectly healthy person should rely upon caffiene for focus. Caffiene has plenty of side effects and if you aren't going to talk about its status then the bottom line is you are saying an addictive drug is ok to use in a drug free lifestyle for no legitimate reason.





I can. And I do. Once again, I used that as leverage for my argument.

so one is a drug and one isn't, great argument.













I agree totally. Usage is a relevant issue. There are doses where the positive effects are enhanced and the negative effects are minimized. So a small dose of speed is ok, its negative effects are minimised and it will help me study all night. A glass of wine also has its effects minimised and can be used as an aid to digestion and may even ward off heart disease. Now thats all well and good but if you are saying that you live drug free its kind of blurring the line. People can make justification for all kinds of drug usage and its ultimately for recreational use, they can live just as well without all the drugs mentioned in this thread. Most people are taking a drug that they do not need and if they are saying they are drug free at the same time, well that sounds silly. Using a drug you don't need versus a drug prescribed for a medical condition.





Maybe I am hung up on the phrase, "recreational usage." When that phrase is used, I picture dudes sitting around the beach campfire blazing the bong, or sitting around snorting lines at a party. Not drinking a cup of coffee.

So imagine people waking up to a morning line of coke or a morning hit of the bong, its still a recreational usage of the drug and displaying the dependence like the morning cup of coffee that many rely upon so strongly and can't go without.








Come on, that is a bad example. If you don't breathe you die. Plain and simple. Very bad example. If i don't eat i die, your examples are just as bad. I'm aware its bad its just to highlight how bad yours are.







I think you misunderstood me. I am saying that you can get a hangover from a large meal eaten before bed. Or a large amount of sugar laden foods. The effect from foods, I will always maintain, is one like that of some drugs, that is all I am saying. numerous things will give effects similar to drugs, they aren't drugs though. We need food and sure eating healthier is good but its still not relevent to a drug free issue but it does explain why a lot of straight edge kids are into veganism and understand about sugar but its just not the drug free issue its something else.






Yeah, maybe I was a little out of control there....

definitely.

[xdaddydaycorex]

just discovered dr. pepper had caffeine. coulda swore i read once that it didn't. bought a 12 pack of new cherry vanilla dr. pepper. pretty much just dr. pepper with more taste. the wife will drink most of it.

[xsecx]

they make caffeine free dr pepper.

[xdaddydaycorex]

they make caffeine free dr pepper.

cool, i never have really seen it. i'm no pepper at heart so it was the cherry vanilla aspect that was the most exciting so i dont know if this flavor would have a caffeine free choice And be the blasphemy to most known as...diet.

[xsecx]

cool, i never have really seen it. i'm no pepper at heart so it was the cherry vanilla aspect that was the most exciting so i dont know if this flavor would have a caffeine free choice And be the blasphemy to most known as...diet.
seriously gross. and you can always add cherry syrup and vanilla flavor.

[DontxxxBlink]

Diet Dr. Pepper tastes more like the real thing.

[straightXed]

Diet Dr. Pepper tastes more like the real thing.


That doesn't make sense.

[xdaddydaycorex]

That doesn't make sense.

no it doesn't. but what would make sense is your avatar showing some shots from your vacation. they look sweet dude. i wish i could see them bigger though. i found some old shots of me skating at like 10 years old, gonna try to post em so you guys will have no doubt what a nerd i was...am.

[straightXed]

no it doesn't. but what would make sense is your avatar showing some shots from your vacation. they look sweet dude. i wish i could see them bigger though. i found some old shots of me skating at like 10 years old, gonna try to post em so you guys will have no doubt what a nerd i was...am.

my avatar is actually some older shots from a few years back at a skate jam with the gonz. I have some travel shots of my holiday uploaded but i have to scan in the skate photos, i'll get on it next wekk.

[DontxxxBlink]

That doesn't make sense.

I know it doesnt make sense...It's the slogan for Diet Dr. Pepper. I thought someone might pick up on it. lol that sure does show my dry sense of humor

[straightXed]

I know it doesnt make sense...It's the slogan for Diet Dr. Pepper. I thought someone might pick up on it. lol that sure does show my dry sense of humor


I don't have that advertising slogan round my way.

[Straightedgecat]

I just think it's funny that people can lie to themselves to make themselves feel better.

Caffiene is a drug. Thats a fact, if you are against drugs period, then there is no reason caffiene shouldn't be included.

People always go on about how it's pathetic that people don't look upon alcohol as a drug in society because it's so widly used, and the hypocricy of someone siting down and saying "Drugs are bad don't do them!" to their kids and sitting down for a nice glass of brandy. People here are doing the exact same thing with caffine.

Like I'm sorry you love the drug, and that you really want or in some cases need to feed your habbit. But don't lie to yourself. In life you have to look at your actions and ask "is this in line with my belifes?" and adjust your behaviour accordingly, not sit there and think "well no it isn't, but I'll convince myself it is"

If your for moderation, be for moderation accross the board, if you are against drugs, then take your stand, not just a stand on the things you don't enjoy, and cave on the things you do.
i agree entirely.. expessially with fact, that the adults in our society are constantly trying to hard wire the facts that drugs are bad, dont do them, and then do exactly what you said. sit down to a glass of wine, or other substance. it does not make sence.. i dont mean to bring another topic into this conversation, but i feel that it is the same way with animals.. in families across the country parents tell kids to respect animals, "dont hurt that animal" so on and so forth and then people have chicken for dinner. (please dont take this as an attack to any meat eaters). what i am trying to say is the amount of hipocracy is increadible, and people if you are going to label yourself straight edge, and still take substances such as caffiene, then clearly your stance against drugs is not deep enough. and there is no way you can fool yourselves..

[daytonohsxe]

I'm tired lol.

[xsecx]

i agree entirely.. expessially with fact, that the adults in our society are constantly trying to hard wire the facts that drugs are bad, dont do them, and then do exactly what you said. sit down to a glass of wine, or other substance. it does not make sence.. i dont mean to bring another topic into this conversation, but i feel that it is the same way with animals.. in families across the country parents tell kids to respect animals, "dont hurt that animal" so on and so forth and then people have chicken for dinner. (please dont take this as an attack to any meat eaters). what i am trying to say is the amount of hipocracy is increadible, and people if you are going to label yourself straight edge, and still take substances such as caffiene, then clearly your stance against drugs is not deep enough. and there is no way you can fool yourselves..
this is mostly off topic. and if you want to discuss it make another topic, but killing something for a reason like consumption is completely different to hurting something for no reason.

[Straightedgecat]

this is mostly off topic. and if you want to discuss it make another topic, but killing something for a reason like consumption is completely different to hurting something for no reason.
im sorry that was a bad comparison.. ill try to restate this.. what i was trying to get at is people cannot fool themselves into one second saying that they have an extreme stance against drugs and then drink a caffinated beverage..

[xsecx]

America's largest brewing company, Anheuser-Busch, released its latest product last week -- a beer that contains caffeine.

heh.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50051-2005Jan30.html

[pineapple]

Caffine, Caffine well, it could b considered a drug, if u want it to be and yes, i was a major Mountain Dew fan, but yeah caffine is bad for u but, hey that is my opinion and caffine is in many things and we cannot stop it or prevent companies from putting it in products, so... all we can do is just not drink it or limit ourselves to this temptaion.

[Xmike presleyX]

Any Straight Edge kid who says they don't consume caffeine is a lair. Even if they try not to. It's unavoidable. It's in tons of stuff and you don't even realize it. I don't drink pop because it has way too much sugar in it. I do drink coffee, though. A whole pot of black coffee every morning. I fucking love black coffee. I'm going to start a crew called "coffeeXcrew". Anyone is welcome to join, but I'm the "Grand Wizard".

CxCB

ONE LIFE DRUG FREE

[xsecx]

Any Straight Edge kid who says they don't consume caffeine is a lair. Even if they try not to. It's unavoidable. It's in tons of stuff and you don't even realize it. I don't drink pop because it has way too much sugar in it. I do drink coffee, though. A whole pot of black coffee every morning. I fucking love black coffee. I'm going to start a crew called "coffeeXcrew". Anyone is welcome to join, but I'm the "Grand Wizard".

CxCB

ONE LIFE DRUG FREE
yeah, drinking or eating something with trace amounts of caffeine, not quite the same thing as consuming the amounts that you're talking about. Can't really say one life drug free when you're using a drug recreationally and if you drink a pot of coffee daily, definetly have a chemical dependance to.

[Xmike presleyX]

Relax, man. Do you have to quote everything I say? Fuck. Also, I love coffee and if I don't have a cup for a few days, it's no big deal, but whatever. I like to say "One Life Drug Free" because it's from an old Integrity song and I wish Dwid was still Straight Edge.........I love Integrity.

[xsecx]

Relax, man. Do you have to quote everything I say? Fuck. Also, I love coffee and if I don't have a cup for a few days, it's no big deal, but whatever. I like to say "One Life Drug Free" because it's from an old Integrity song and I wish Dwid was still Straight Edge.........I love Integrity.
I'm not saying it is a big deal, just that it's inconsistant. You can't say you're drug free and condone recreational drug use, but only the ones you like, because you like coffee. If I really like the taste of beer and I drank one every once in a while, would I still be straight edge?

[Xmike presleyX]

Of course you wouldn't be Straight Edge. I also don't think the ingesting caffeine is "recreational drug use". That's just my personal opinion.

[xsecx]

Of course you wouldn't be Straight Edge. I also don't think the ingesting caffeine is "recreational drug use". That's just my personal opinion.
ok. so why isn't it?

[xx_sXe_xx]

i know people who say that caff. is a dependent and people that say it isn't. my question is about herbal caffiene. SoBe has ginseng or something like that in that has a natural source of caff. so is that against the whole no caff. thing? just a question...


now the yes or no to caffiene is totally a personal choice in my opinion. you either say no to all intoxicants or you say no to some of them...me, I used to say no to the basic 3 sex,alcohol,drugs...with drugs, just the obvious ones. lately i've been trying to get off of caffiene, but it's tough because of the people around you. i don't know... i guess i;m just saying to do what you feel is right on the whole caff vs. no caff thing

[xsecx]

i know people who say that caff. is a dependent and people that say it isn't. my question is about herbal caffiene. SoBe has ginseng or something like that in that has a natural source of caff. so is that against the whole no caff. thing? just a question...

caffeine is an addictive drug. it really isn't a matter of opinion. And I don't understand what you mean by herbal caffeine. Are you talking about guaranine? If you are, it's not caffeine, but a stimulant that's similar.

[pineapple]

caffeine is an addictive drug. it really isn't a matter of opinion. And I don't understand what you mean by herbal caffeine. Are you talking about guaranine? If you are, it's not caffeine, but a stimulant that's similar.



yeah ok maybe it is a drug, but most ppl can't get that through their thick heads. Yes, i think it is a matter of opnion b/c it is not a proven theroy and if it is where is the proof?
stimulant same thing somthing that gives u energy b/c my father uses crap like that that gives him energy and he hasn't stopped drinking it or maybe it is just him.. oh f**K IT.nevermind.

[xsecx]

yeah ok maybe it is a drug, but most ppl can't get that through their thick heads. Yes, i think it is a matter of opnion b/c it is not a proven theroy and if it is where is the proof?
stimulant same thing somthing that gives u energy b/c my father uses crap like that that gives him energy and he hasn't stopped drinking it or maybe it is just him.. oh f**K IT.nevermind.
um. it is proven and widely accepted that it's an addictive drug? There's no opinion there. http://home.howstuffworks.com/caffeine1.htm is 1 source. lots more if you google it.
and the rest of your post didn't actually make sense, so I don't know what you were actually trying to say.

[xGriffox]

well im just wondering, do you see someone whos sXe that drinks soda with caffeine in it as not really being sXe?


also since i became sXe ive stopped using caffeine, but its come to my attention that chocolate has caffeine in it too, so is there enough caffeine in chocolate to actually get the effects of caffeine? and if so, im gonna have a hard time stopping eating chocolate :)

[straightXed]

well im just wondering, do you see someone whos sXe that drinks soda with caffeine in it as not really being sXe?


also since i became sXe ive stopped using caffeine, but its come to my attention that chocolate has caffeine in it too, so is there enough caffeine in chocolate to actually get the effects of caffeine? and if so, im gonna have a hard time stopping eating chocolate :)


theres not enough to worry about and may i suggest reading the whole thread instead of going over things that have already been discussed.

[xsecx]

well im just wondering, do you see someone whos sXe that drinks soda with caffeine in it as not really being sXe?


also since i became sXe ive stopped using caffeine, but its come to my attention that chocolate has caffeine in it too, so is there enough caffeine in chocolate to actually get the effects of caffeine? and if so, im gonna have a hard time stopping eating chocolate :)
to answer the first part. no, but I do have to wonder how much someone has actually thought about caffeine and it's place in their life, and why they are straight edge in the first place.

to answer the second part, read the thread from the beginning, it's well covered.

[xx_sXe_xx]

i was talking about guarine or ginseng or whatever it is, and i think that's ok. yeah caffiene is an addictive drug. i used to drink like 4 red bull and 2 liters of mountain dew a day...sad...but i've been caffiene free for a couple of weeks now and i actually feel better than when i was downing the crap.

[xsecx]

i was talking about guarine or ginseng or whatever it is, and i think that's ok. yeah caffiene is an addictive drug. i used to drink like 4 red bull and 2 liters of mountain dew a day...sad...but i've been caffiene free for a couple of weeks now and i actually feel better than when i was downing the crap.
why would guarinine be ok?

[xx_sXe_xx]

it's a natural source, therefore i consider it to be alright. caffiene is a manmade substance used to energize. guarinine is a natural source, therefore i consider it as an herbal source.

[xsecx]

it's a natural source, therefore i consider it to be alright. caffiene is a manmade substance used to energize. guarinine is a natural source, therefore i consider it as an herbal source.
uh. caffeine isn't man made. it occurs naturally in coffee and tea, among other things. it's as herbal as guarinine is.

also quite a few stimulants are plant derived. like cocaine.

[xcx]

caffeine really messes with me, makes me feel different, so i don't do it. to ingest something that alters my head, well, to me its not straight edge to do it.

[Kraven]

well in my opinion caffine is a drug to me, alá me not taking caffine into my body, i don't personally see the need for it, i don't crave to have it, i don't need it, and not taking into my body helps me sleep better :)

[emochild123]

i and a group of my friends always ...ALWAYS. go get some sort of expresso or something before a show. in witch has, caffine, i dont think of it as a drug, such as weed or cigs. we dont abuse it, i dont think.

[xsecx]

i and a group of my friends always ...ALWAYS. go get some sort of expresso or something before a show. in witch has, caffine, i dont think of it as a drug, such as weed or cigs. we dont abuse it, i dont think.

why don't you think of it as a drug?

[emochild123]

why don't you think of it as a drug?

well, im not quite sure. i grew up with it, and yeah its addicting. Because when i hear the word "drug/s" i think of like (pot/cigs./meth...ect.) i would have never thought of caffine being a "drug"and it doesnt feel like it would be. :unsure:

[xsecx]

well, im not quite sure. i grew up with it, and yeah its addicting. Because when i hear the word "drug/s" i think of like (pot/cigs./meth...ect.) i would have never thought of caffine being a "drug"and it doesnt feel like it would be. :unsure:

yeah, but if you apply that same logic to everything else, would it apply?

[emochild123]

yeah, but if you apply that same logic to everything else, would it apply?

eh. i guess if you thought of it like that in place of the caffine yeah. but isnt the caffine in some things natural?...i wouldnt do any of the other drugs so i would know.

[xsecx]

eh. i guess if you thought of it like that in place of the caffine yeah. but isnt the caffine in some things natural?...i wouldnt do any of the other drugs so i would know.

sure, but nicotine and thc are natural in tobacco and marijuana. cocaine is natural in coca leaves. why wouldn't you do any of the other drugs, but you would do caffeine?

[emochild123]

sure, but nicotine and thc are natural in tobacco and marijuana. cocaine is natural in coca leaves. why wouldn't you do any of the other drugs, but you would do caffeine?

so my expresso is not okay. ? and neither is soda.? heh. yeah i never thought of caffine being, a drug.i dont kno why it just never really crossed my mind. word.

[xsecx]

so my expresso is not okay. ? and neither is soda.? heh. yeah i never thought of caffine being, a drug.i dont kno why it just never really crossed my mind. word.

is it? If you're against drug use, why would you use a drug recreationally?

[xx420xx]

if you wanna call yourself straightedge, you've got to actually be straightedge. no caffiene, no drammamine, no cough syrup, nothing. if i can eat psilocybin mushrooms in small quantities and still act responsibly, am i still straightedge? the only thing that seperates caffiene from illegal stimulants is that it has negative effects at high doses.

[XprennaX]

so my expresso is not okay. ? and neither is soda.? heh. yeah i never thought of caffine being, a drug.i dont kno why it just never really crossed my mind. word.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already but you should also be aware that caffeine is classified as a drug by the FDA, the Olympic Commitee (above a certain amount it actually becomes a banned drug in olympic events), and most nutritional research.

Just because you don't consider something a drug doesn't alter the fact that it is a drug.

[thechris]

ok your saying caffine is a drug ok but that means if you eat choclate or drink chocalet milk your taking in caffine so your saying to be edge you have to give up chocalet too and pop from time to time no in my opinion moderation in caffine is ok btw if that makes me not straight edge so be it

[xsecx]

ok your saying caffine is a drug ok but that means if you eat choclate or drink chocalet milk your taking in caffine so your saying to be edge you have to give up chocalet too and pop from time to time no in my opinion moderation in caffine is ok btw if that makes me not straight edge so be it


you should read the thread before commenting.

[XprennaX]

Actually most chocolate hasthe smae amount of caffeine as "caffeine-free" tea and coffee. In other words it is not enough to cause any kind of stimulating effect.

And saying that caffeine in moderation makes you not edge. It's like me saying that a dab or two of cocaine or speed is ok once in a while. If I did that I wouldn't be edge.

[thechris]

yea i know but i hate reading so.......i'm just going to shut up now

[thechris]

does "Alchol free beer" still have a little alchol yes......so its an alcholic drink if caffine free coffe has a little caffine its caffine so.....that means de-caf is still bad

[XprennaX]

Part of the definition of drug is, particularly as used by FDA, IOC, and so on, "a chemical substance, such as a narcotic or hallucinogen, that affects the central nervous system, causing changes in behavior and often addiction." The amounts of caffeine in de-caf drinks and in chocolate are not even close being in high enough concentration to be causing changes to the central nervous system, unlike your other coffees, sodas etc.

It never ceases to amaze me that people claim to be straightedge but then go completely out of their way to justify their particular drug of choice, or some other aspect of themselves which means they have no connection to straightedge. If you want to be straightedge be straightedge but if you want to take a drug, such as caffeine, then you obviously don't want ot be straightedge so why try and claim the label?

[XprennaX]

I can't believe this. I've been back on a straightedge message board for 24 hours and already I'm having an argument bout caffeine.

[thechris]

dude what i can't believe is how you assume i use caffine have I ever said i use it no i've just argued my opinion so don't assume cuz when you assume you make an ass out of you and me

[XprennaX]

Don't be fucking trite. I was using "you" in a general sense not as in you specifically. This debate is including many more people than just you.

[xsecx]

dude what i can't believe is how you assume i use caffine have I ever said i use it no i've just argued my opinion so don't assume cuz when you assume you make an ass out of you and me


maybe because you said this "ok your saying caffine is a drug ok but that means if you eat choclate or drink chocalet milk your taking in caffine so your saying to be edge you have to give up chocalet too and pop from time to time no in my opinion moderation in caffine is ok btw if that makes me not straight edge so be it"

[xx420xx]

alchohol and caffiene have been found to have postive effects on overall health in moderation.

[xsecx]

alchohol and caffiene have been found to have postive effects on overall health in moderation.
this isn't true. alcohol hasn't. things in wine that aren't alcoholic have. however, we're not talking about moderate use, so I don't really know what your point is.

[thechris]

ok whatever you guys suck and your all a bunch of hypacrites saying moderation is not ok but chocolet doesn't have enough to do anything but according to your own logic it doesn't matter cuz thats eating it in moderation none means none not " none so long as its so little" jeez

[xsecx]

ok whatever you guys suck and your all a bunch of hypacrites saying moderation is not ok but chocolet doesn't have enough to do anything but according to your own logic it doesn't matter cuz thats eating it in moderation none means none not " none so long as its so little" jeez

moderation implies that you're consuming enough to affect you, but not too much so. the amount of caffeine you would consume in chocolate or decaf tea or coffee isnt' enough to effect you, so why would it be avoided? how exactly is it hypocritical? chocolate has 5 mg of caffeine per bar.

[thechris]

so what if a person like choclate and ate....2......3.....5 bars where is the cut off its gotta end somewhere untill they're "on" caffine

[xsecx]

so what if a person like choclate and ate....2......3.....5 bars where is the cut off its gotta end somewhere untill they're "on" caffine

yeah, it's when you consume enough. assuming there is 4 mg per bar, and it takes approximately 40 mgs before it'd begin to affect a person, they'd have to eat 10 bars within a short amount of time. and I'm sure there isn't anyone doing that, so I don't exactly see your point.

[thechris]

question I only drink a cup of coke occasionally a cupe is 8oz and a 12 oz can contains 33mg so am I still edge

[xsecx]

question I only drink a cup of coke occasionally a cupe is 8oz and a 12 oz can contains 33mg so am I still edge

why wouldn't you drink caffeine free coke?

[xSouthernEdgex]

why wouldn't you drink caffeine free coke?

is there still caffeine in caffeine free coke? Because i drink it to stay away from Caffeine but is it also bad?

[xsecx]

is there still caffeine in caffeine free coke? Because i drink it to stay away from Caffeine but is it also bad?

caffeine is an additive in sodas. caffeine free means there is no caffeine in it.

[xSouthernEdgex]

caffeine is an additive in sodas. caffeine free means there is no caffeine in it.

Oh ok...I thought it was natural... So i guess i can drink it and still be edge then.

[thechris]

why wouldn't you drink caffeine free coke?
I don't drink caffine free coke because my dad drinks alot of coke and I drink very little and never thought of buying my own instead but I could

[thechris]

seriously like maybe a cup a week

[xSouthernEdgex]

seriously like maybe a cup a week

Why dont you just edit your post and add more instead of posting twice?

[xsecx]

seriously like maybe a cup a week

if it's maybe a cup of week, why would it mean that much to you?

[SgtD]

i can't understand why is this thread so big.

caffiene is a drug. it's that simple

[xjoshiex508x]

caffiene is the main ingredient in alot of over the counter medicines so it's ironic when kids say they dont consume caffiene and then take tylenol for a head ache.

[xsecx]

caffiene is the main ingredient in alot of over the counter medicines so it's ironic when kids say they dont consume caffiene and then take tylenol for a head ache.

no it isn't, because tylenol doesn't contain caffeine. excedrin does.

[straightXed]

no it isn't, because tylenol doesn't contain caffeine. excedrin does.


And of course headache releif isn't exactly recreational drug usage.

[XXXJoshBloodXXX]

hey on this i was just wondering if anyone knows how stuff gets classified as a drug. well its by the FDA and its anything that changes the way the body behaves be it good or bad. that is why currently to make more money the FDA is trying to get vitamins as in A, B, C etc. turned into drugs. so if they win that battle and get them turned into drugs will you all be against those too just like your against caffiene and yea i realized im late in adding to this thread just thought i would post anyways

[XcaitieXchaos]

I guess caffine is kinda like sex or cussing or perscription drugs, it's part of your interpretation of edge. I don't like caffine because I'm on medacine for ADD and it has a stimulate in it anyway, so caffine makes me jittery.

[xvunderx]

I guess caffine is kinda like sex or cussing or perscription drugs, it's part of your interpretation of edge. I don't like caffine because I'm on medacine for ADD and it has a stimulate in it anyway, so caffine makes me jittery.

Sure some people think it's ok to be edge and drink caffeine, just like some people thinks sex has something to do with sxe.

The question should be about the individual, and how they can reconcile being firmly against recreational drug use, and enjoy recreational drug use?

Some times people need to take edge out of the equation and just look at their lives, and whether or not they live by what they believe. If you believe recreational drug use is wrong, and still have a coffee every morning, your lying to yourself.

[XTILLDEATHX]

caffine isnt apart of sXe in my opinion.. if u claim to be caffine free then yea sure, but it should be your choice... i drink a pepsi every now and then... doesnt make me a bad person

[SgtD]

caffine isnt apart of sXe in my opinion.. if u claim to be caffine free then yea sure, but it should be your choice... i drink a pepsi every now and then... doesnt make me a bad person
it doesn't make my friend a bad person if he drinks a bunch of beers every weekend is it?

[XTILLDEATHX]

it doesn't make my friend a bad person if he drinks a bunch of beers every weekend is it?

no.. it makes him a stupid ass

[xGriffox]

no.. it makes him a stupid ass
and that made you sound ignorant :)

[straightXed]

no.. it makes him a stupid ass

The point is why is one drug ok and not another?

[SgtD]

The point is why is one drug ok and not another?
wow, somebody understood what i was pointing at!

[xsecx]

I guess caffine is kinda like sex or cussing or perscription drugs, it's part of your interpretation of edge. I don't like caffine because I'm on medacine for ADD and it has a stimulate in it anyway, so caffine makes me jittery.

not really. if you're against recreational drug use, you're against recreational drug use. caffiene is a drug and it's one that is used mostly for recreational reasons.

[x B x FO x]

if people say u can get a high of caffeine, cant u technically get a sugar high classifying it as a drug?

[xsecx]

if people say u can get a high of caffeine, cant u technically get a sugar high classifying it as a drug?

no, because sugar isn't a drug by definition and caffeine is.

[Tex]

I drink coke around 2-3 times a week. I try to limit my caffeine intake.

[straightXed]

I drink coke around 2-3 times a week. I try to limit my caffeine intake.

Why don't you buy caffeine free coke products?

[hxcsxe]

Why don't you buy caffeine free coke products?
yeah dumb arse

[hxcsxe]

caffine makes me sleep

[xsecx]

caffine makes me sleep

we should alert the medical press.

[hxcsxe]

we should alert the medical press.
too flaming right the stuff is shit

[xsecx]

too flaming right the stuff is shit

yeah. or you've taken so much of it that you've built up a resistance.