can anyone try and make the argument for sex

[xsecx]

as something that should matter in the edge? Why do you feel that way you do, how are drugs, alcohol and sex related? Why not gambling or other things that are "bad"? Where is the line that "breaks edge"? What acts are ok and what aren't? What's the rule for how long you have to know someone before it's ok to have sex?

[flame_still_burns]

Originally posted by xsecx
What's the rule for how long you have to know someone before it's ok to have sex?

as long as both parties are down. as soon as you want to.

as for me... pronto, if not sooner.

[AxZxHxC]

ive been arguing this with other edge kids, and they dont understand. i too dont see how sex is related. im not a pimp master anyway so i dont really have to worry about it anyway.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by AxZxHxC
ive been arguing this with other edge kids, and they dont understand. i too dont see how sex is related. im not a pimp master anyway so i dont really have to worry about it anyway.

it logically doesn't make any sense. it's one song that people latched onto. and the ones that do tend to use it as some sort of moral superiority.

[xdaddydaycorex]

Originally posted by xsecx
as something that should matter in the edge? Why do you feel that way you do, how are drugs, alcohol and sex related? Why not gambling or other things that are "bad"? Where is the line that "breaks edge"? What acts are ok and what aren't? What's the rule for how long you have to know someone before it's ok to have sex?

i think its great that some kids want to abstain from sex but i definately have no argument for making it part of the rules of straight edge. it all comes from a misinterpretation_of ians orignal lyrics, even ian himself said he never meant the song to mean he didnt fuck.

[flame_still_burns]

X balls deep X


(sorry)

[xsecx]

Originally posted by XracerX
i think its great that some kids want to abstain from sex but i definately have no argument for making it part of the rules of straight edge. it all comes from a misinterpretation_of ians orignal lyrics, even ian himself said he never meant the song to mean he didnt fuck.

I do too, but I also think cheating and stealing are bad ideas too, but not edge.

The thing is, edge was shaped and formed by many by the opinons and work of so many people other than Ian, yet kids act like his words are gospel.

[xdaddydaycorex]

Originally posted by xsecx
I do too, but I also think cheating and stealing are bad ideas too, but not edge.

The thing is, edge was shaped and formed by many by the opinons and work of so many people other than Ian, yet kids act like his words are gospel.

yeah its pretty funny, he has never even called himself edge, ever.

there should be a new movement called SUPEREDGE and all the shit people want to pretend straightedge is can just stop posting here because now just for them is SUPEREDGE !!!!! enjoy.

[xgregx]

I am sorry but I don't much care for minor threat. it is annoying punk.

[flame_still_burns]

Originally posted by xgregx
I am sorry but I don't much care for minor threat. it is annoying punk.

dude.

don't make me get on route 55 and drive to your house and smack some sense into you.

what!????????!!!!!!

[xsecx]

Originally posted by flame_still_burns
dude.

don't make me get on route 55 and drive to your house and smack some sense into you.

what!????????!!!!!!

sssh don't talk so loud. the strength of your voice might blow him away.

[flame_still_burns]

Originally posted by xsecx
sssh don't talk so loud. the strength of your voice might blow him away.

be nice.

greg you can come over and eat a hearty vegan meal with us sometime. see how it's done.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by flame_still_burns
be nice.

greg you can come over and eat a hearty vegan meal with us sometime. see how it's done.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/weather/story/a_z/images/wind_150.jpg

OH THE HUMANITY!

[flame_still_burns]

dusty = googler

[xgregx]

Originally posted by flame_still_burns
be nice.

greg you can come over and eat a hearty vegan meal with us sometime. see how it's done.

sounds nice!
that actually would be awesome
I am thinking about attending that vegetarian festival.
that would be fun.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xsecx
I do too, but I also think cheating and stealing are bad ideas too, but not edge.

The thing is, edge was shaped and formed by many by the opinons and work of so many people other than Ian, yet kids act like his words are gospel.

That's pretty much it. It's Edge 'cause it's in Out of Step. Why? Who knows?

That said, no sane person takes that to mean "I don't have any sex at all". Ian MacKayehas in interviews said that the line refered to promiscuous sex, to sex for lust not love and to using others for sex.

I suppose an argument could be made that it is related to consuming mind-altering substances as both can be harmful, with STDs etc. That's a pretty poor argument though.

It could also be said that Edge itself doesn't make much sense. How are no drugs and no alcohol linked in a way that doesn't include caffiene or excessive use of painkillers?

Basically, as I see it, trying to logically support Straight Edge as one unified and distinct choice doesn't work that well. To me, it's three or even four choices that together allow one to claim the label.

Personally, I say that no promiscuous sex is part of Edge because that's what most people I know take it as, and I believe that terms like SXE are defined through their common usuage.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
That's pretty much it. It's Edge 'cause it's in Out of Step. Why? Who knows?

That said, no sane person takes that to mean "I don't have any sex at all". Ian MacKayehas in interviews said that the line refered to promiscuous sex, to sex for lust not love and to using others for sex.

I suppose an argument could be made that it is related to consuming mind-altering substances as both can be harmful, with STDs etc. That's a pretty poor argument though.

It could also be said that Edge itself doesn't make much sense.



Basically, as I see it, trying to logically support Straight Edge as one unified and distinct choice doesn't work that well. To me, it's three or even four choices that together allow one to claim the label.

Personally, I say that no promiscuous sex is part of Edge because that's what most people I know take it as, and I believe that terms like SXE are defined through their common usuage.

ian mackaye had nothing to do with what straight edge became, so why are his words gospel? where can you find references later if it's so important?


as for this "How are no drugs and no alcohol linked in a way that doesn't include caffiene or excessive use of painkillers?"

who says they aren't?

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xsecx
ian mackaye had nothing to do with what straight edge became, so why are his words gospel? where can you find references later if it's so important?

Ian MacKaye's words are gospel because they...uh...are. See previous comments about the term being defined by it's common usuage. I agree that it's kinda silly to put such weight on what MacKaye said, but...that's what people do.

Every internet discussion I've had about this has ended up like this:


Originally posted by xNoPromiscuousSex
IS TOO!

Originally posted by xProPromiscuousSex
IS NOT!

Originally posted by xNoPromiscuousSex
[posts OUT OF STEP lyrics]
HA! See? I'm RIGHT!!!!

Originally posted by xProPromiscuousSex
[posts STRAIGHT EDGE lyrics]
Where does it mention sex? Eh? Eh? Eh?

Originally posted by xNoPromiscuousSex
It doesn't, but Out of Step DOES!

Originally posted by xProPromiscuousSex
So? We don't say we're Out Of Step do we? We're Straight Edge. Ha, sucka, I'm right. Why don't you start your own movement called xOutxOfxStepx, huh? It can ban all the sex you want.
...fag.

Originally posted by xNoPromiscuousSex
FUCK YOU FAGGOT! STRAIGHT EDGE DOESN'T MENTION (drug) EITHER! HA! SEE!?
YOU'RE WRONG! YOU'RE GAY!

Originally posted by xPoPromiscuousSex
No, YOU are gay. FAG

...why do they do this? I don't know.

Face to face, I've never seen anyone try to argue this. The closest was when about three of us were at a CD store and one asked if no promiscuous sex was part of Edge 'cause he'd met some guy whoherefusedtoname who said it wasn't. The general consensus was quickly that the guy concerned was wrong and sucked and probably listened to fruitcore.

(no one ever said that SXE kids had to be logical or rational, did they?)


Originally posted by xsecx
as for this "How are no drugs and no alcohol linked in a way that doesn't include caffiene or excessive use of painkillers?"

who says they aren't? [/B]

Uh, me. As far as I can see, the only way these things can be grouped is that they are mind altering substances. Number one and number two are covered by Edge, number three and number four aren't. See my point? The limits of Straight Edge aren't very logically defined, in my mind.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Ian MacKaye's words are gospel because they...uh...are. See previous comments about the term being defined by it's common usuage. I agree that it's kinda silly to put such weight on what MacKaye said, but...that's what people do.


Ian also said you shouldn't play golf. is playing golf not edge too? To included sex doesn't make any sense. Where is the line? What is ok and what isn't? If it's common usage, where else is it? What other songs?



Uh, me. As far as I can see, the only way these things can be grouped is that they are mind altering substances. Number one and number two are covered by Edge, number three and number four aren't. See my point? The limits of Straight Edge aren't very logically defined, in my mind.

Sex isn't mind altering. Pain killers and caffiene are mind altering. So no, I don't see your point.

[xdaddydaycorex]

Originally posted by xgregx
sounds nice!
that actually would be awesome
I am thinking about attending that vegetarian festival.
that would be fun.

you better get permission from your mom first.

[straightXed]

I can't draw a line without presenting a load of other questions.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xsecx
Ian also said you shouldn't play golf. is playing golf not edge too? To included sex doesn't make any sense. Where is the line? What is ok and what isn't? ... What other songs?

Again, this is not my argument. I do not take Ian's word as gospel. I do not take Minor Threat lyrics as gospel. But my point is that a lot of people do.


Originally posted by xsecx
If it's common usage, where else is it?

I have no idea what this question means. When I refer to the common usuage of the term, I mean that the meaning it should be given is the one which the majority of people (IE, hardcore kids) use it as. In my experience, the common usuage meaning of the term Straight Edge includes no promiscuous sex.

Whether or not Straight Edge should reasonably be connected to Straight Edge is another matter entirely; what's under discussion now is what it is, not what it should be. Descriptive not normative, blah, blah.


Originally posted by xsecx
Sex isn't mind altering. Pain killers and caffiene are mind altering. So no, I don't see your point.

Okay. You asked how drugs/alcohol and sex are related. I interpreted this as you arguing that the three criteria you take as making up Edge are related, whereas the fourth possible/debated one was not related to them. The relationship that I identified between them was that they are mind-altering; that seems to be the strongest common feature of them. Now, if all things that make up Edge must be connected, they must all have some common thread connecting them. It is reasonable then to entend your logic and say that, if the premise that all criteria of Edge must be linked, the common factor is what makes them against Edge. Therefore all other things possessing that factor must be against Edge. Therefore, extending your argument to its reasonable conclusion, it is not Edge to drink caffiene, as like Edge it is mind-altering. That is obviously incorrect. Therefore either my extension of your argument is invalid, or your argument is unsound.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Again, this is not my argument. I do not take Ian's word as gospel. I do not take Minor Threat lyrics as gospel. But my point is that a lot of people do.


If it's not your argument, then why make it? If something doesn't make sense why support it?



I have no idea what this question means. When I refer to the common usuage of the term, I mean that the meaning it should be given is the one which the majority of people (IE, hardcore kids) use it as. In my experience, the common usuage meaning of the term Straight Edge includes no promiscuous sex.


If it's common usage, then it would appear in other means. References to drugs and alcohols appear in song after song, because of the common usage. If it's so accepted, then 1, why are we having this conversation and 2, where are the other references?



Whether or not Straight Edge should reasonably be connected to Straight Edge is another matter entirely; what's under discussion now is what it is, not what it should be. Descriptive not normative, blah, blah.


This statement doesn't make any sense.



Okay. You asked how drugs/alcohol and sex are related. I interpreted this as you arguing that the three criteria you take as making up Edge are related, whereas the fourth possible/debated one was not related to them. The relationship that I identified between them was that they are mind-altering; that seems to be the strongest common feature of them. Now, if all things that make up Edge must be connected, they must all have some common thread connecting them. It is reasonable then to entend your logic and say that, if the premise that all criteria of Edge must be linked, the common factor is what makes them against Edge. Therefore all other things possessing that factor must be against Edge. Therefore, extending your argument to its reasonable conclusion, it is not Edge to drink caffiene, as like Edge it is mind-altering. That is obviously incorrect. Therefore either my extension of your argument is invalid, or your argument is unsound.

How is this obviously incorrect? You've made a statement without providing proof. it ifsillogical and wrong to call yourself straight edge or drug free and consume drugs for recreational purposes. Caffeine is a drug. If you consume enough to affect you, ie a cup of coffee or a can of coke, then you are using a drug. If you are against drug use, you are against drug use. Just people a lot of people do something and don't think it through, doesn't mean it's right. It means they are inconsistant in their words vs their actions.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xsecx
If it's not your argument, then why make it? If something doesn't make sense why support it?

Okay, what I was saying is that that's only argument I've heard for why it should be part of Edge. I think it's a pretty silly argument.

But, most SXE people I know face to face think that sex is part of Edge. Maybe that's largely because a lot of my Edge friends are Christian, so they come at things from a different angle than many, but in the scene here, the common usuage certainly seems to include sex and exclude caffiene and painkillers.

As I think slang terms take their meaning from the common usuage in the local area, that's the definition I give the term. Admittedly, it's a bloody silly collection of prohibitions, but it's a collection I abide by and am proud to claim it.

Why do I support Edge, even though I don't think it's that logical?

...because a lot in this word isn't logical.
...because the Edge kids I know are generally good cunts.
...because it's a way of saying that not only do I abstain from those things but I'm fucking proud.
...because it's a way of saying I've made a commitment for life.
...because it's a lot easier than listing off everything I've chosen not to do.
...because the music's fucking great.
...because it's pretty much unique amongst youth-based movements in that it is genuinely positive and healthy despite being created entirely by the kids not external moralists.


Originally posted by xsecx
If it's common usage, then it would appear in other means. References to drugs and alcohols appear in song after song, because of the common usage. If it's so accepted, then 1, why are we having this conversation and 2, where are the other references?

Ah, point taken. Arguably, common usuage varies from place to place, but that's a bit of a cop-out. Arguably too it doesn't appear in songs because it doesn't scan that well...

Or, o'course, you're right.


Originally posted by xsecx
This statement doesn't make any sense.

You're right, my mistake, it should have read: "Whether or not sex should reasonably be connected to Straight Edge is another matter entirely; what's under discussion now is what it is, not what it should be. Descriptive not normative, blah, blah."

[descriptive = describing what something is, normative = theorising what it should be...what's the point of going to uni if you can't use stupidly long words for simple concepts?]


Originally posted by xsecx
How is this obviously incorrect?

Pretty much every Straight Edger I've met in NZ happily drinks Coke and coffee and takes painkillers more than is strictly necessary.

I do not, be cause I think it's illogical.

However, here...people say that Straight Edge refers only to alcohol, tobacco and illegal drugs. Bars sell Royal Crown Cola at hardcore shows just because it's what all the Edgers drink, so that way they can recoup the money lost 'cause we don't buy booze. I've even heard of a longtime Edge guy taking herbal energy pills to stay up while driving home after another show.

I think that's nonsensical, but that's what the people I know all take Edge to be. If you raise the topic of it being unedge to drink coffee or take legal drugs, you're accused of being Edger-than-thou, mocked and told to shut up.

So, I assumed that you would think drinking coffee was as Edge as anything.



Originally posted by xsecx
[B]You've made a statement without providing proof.

As I explained above, the consensus here in NZ is firmly that drinking coke and coffee is Edge. I didn't back my claim up, because I thought it was an accepted norm.



Originally posted by xsecx
it ifsillogical and wrong to call yourself straight edge or drug free and consume drugs for recreational purposes. Caffeine is a drug. If you consume enough to affect you, ie a cup of coffee or a can of coke, then you are using a drug. If you are against drug use, you are against drug use. Just people a lot of people do something and don't think it through, doesn't mean it's right. It means they are inconsistant in their words vs their actions.

Indeed. However, here we're running into the descriptive/normative thing again.

[DcDuckee]

its confusing with sex because i hear people that say
you cant have sex at all
or
you cant have sex until your married
or
only promiscious sex
and
sex is nothing to do with sxe

so i have no idea i just dont believe in promiscious sex, even if i wasnt straightedge thats still how i'd go about

[straightXed]

Originally posted by DcDuckee
its confusing with sex because i hear people that say
you cant have sex at all
or
you cant have sex until your married
or
only promiscious sex
and
sex is nothing to do with sxe

so i have no idea i just dont believe in promiscious sex, even if i wasnt straightedge thats still how i'd go about

cool, but what would you personally say promiscuous was, wheres the line with that?

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
[B]Okay, what I was saying is that that's only argument I've heard for why it should be part of Edge. I think it's a pretty silly argument.

But, most SXE people I know face to face think that sex is part of Edge. Maybe that's largely because a lot of my Edge friends are Christian, so they come at things from a different angle than many, but in the scene here, the common usuage certainly seems to include sex and exclude caffiene and painkillers.

As I think slang terms take their meaning from the common usuage in the local area, that's the definition I give the term. Admittedly, it's a bloody silly collection of prohibitions, but it's a collection I abide by and am proud to claim it.

Why do I support Edge, even though I don't think it's that logical?

...because a lot in this word isn't logical.
...because the Edge kids I know are generally good cunts.
...because it's a way of saying that not only do I abstain from those things but I'm fucking proud.
...because it's a way of saying I've made a commitment for life.
...because it's a lot easier than listing off everything I've chosen not to do.
...because the music's fucking great.
...because it's pretty much unique amongst youth-based movements in that it is genuinely positive and healthy despite being created entirely by the kids not external moralists.



if you think something is silly, why are you going to abide by them? Also following your logic, that if everyone around you started saying you had to be christian, that would make it so, even if the vast majority of people disagree. People in Brazil think you have to vegan to be straight edge. Does that make it so?




Ah, point taken. Arguably, common usuage varies from place to place, but that's a bit of a cop-out. Arguably too it doesn't appear in songs because it doesn't scan that well...

Or, o'course, you're right.



The same should still hold then, there should be things external to speech. Every band that sings about edge should have a song about sex in New Zealand.




Pretty much every Straight Edger I've met in NZ happily drinks Coke and coffee and takes painkillers more than is strictly necessary.

I do not, be cause I think it's illogical.

However, here...people say that Straight Edge refers only to alcohol, tobacco and illegal drugs. Bars sell Royal Crown Cola at hardcore shows just because it's what all the Edgers drink, so that way they can recoup the money lost 'cause we don't buy booze. I've even heard of a longtime Edge guy taking herbal energy pills to stay up while driving home after another show.

I think that's nonsensical, but that's what the people I know all take Edge to be. If you raise the topic of it being unedge to drink coffee or take legal drugs, you're accused of being Edger-than-thou, mocked and told to shut up.

So, I assumed that you would think drinking coffee was as Edge as anything.


Just because alot of people think something it doesn't mean it's right. The simple fact is, caffiene is a drug. It affects people. It's an additive that was used to replace cocaine in soda. It's not like there is some huge leap that needs to be made. The thing is, a can of coke does as much to you as a beer. So why is one ok and the other isn't? If something doesn't make sense, you stop doing it. If you don't spend any time thinking about what you believe and why you believe it, then why bother? The whole edger than thou stuff is bullshit. It has to do with thinking things through and living within those terms. If caffiene in soda is ok, what about energy drinks? what about herbal stimulants? Can I chew on some coca leaves if I get tired?



As I explained above, the consensus here in NZ is firmly that drinking coke and coffee is Edge. I didn't back my claim up, because I thought it was an accepted norm.


NZ is a very tiny subset of something much larger.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xsecx
if you think something is silly, why are you going to abide by them?

You're very good at misrepresenting someone's position, aren't you?

I didn't say Edge was silly. I said that most arguments for sex being included under the term were silly, and the grouping of it with drugs, smoking and alcohol was illogical.

What I did not do was say that Edge was silly. I said it was an illogical group of criteria. Expecting you to respond just you did, I listed a number of reasons why despite this I'm still proud to claim it.

Moreover, this is coming back to one of the big differences of opinion we have about what Edge is. You see it as rules; I see it as criteria. The difference is fairly subtle; either way, you can't drink, toke or smoke and be Edge. Your approach, however, implies that being Edge is the goal; if you want to be Edge, you must not drink, smoke or toke. My approach is the opposite; it puts the goal not as being Edge, but as living poison free.

I think that people who aim to claim Edge are...silly. If you don't drink simply because that's in the rules, then your hearts in the wrong place. I don't drink, I don't even want to drink, ever, and that's why I can and do claim Edge. Too many kids seem to think now though that they wanna be Edge, so as much as they'd like to, they can't drink. That's not the way it should be.

So, likewise I don't abstain from promiscuous sex because it's in the 'rules' of Edge; I do so because of my own personal reasons. That is, I do so because things I've seen in my life lead me to believe that shagging around is not healthy or intelligent.


Originally posted by xsecx Also following your logic, that if everyone around you started saying you had to be christian, that would make it so, even if the vast majority of people disagree.

Nope, because words never change meaning overnight. This is a pretty implausible example, but even assuming that everyone around me did decide this, it still would not redefine Edge, simply because I'd still know what it meant before their strange revelation...


Originally posted by xsecx People in Brazil think you have to vegan to be straight edge. Does that make it so?

Nope, but to a Brazilian kid...would he know any better? Oh, and I really doubt that the majority of Edgers and hardcore kids in Brazil believe that. Like here, I expect that it's an ill-informed belief held only by those who have a very tenuous connection with the hardcore scene. I remember earlier this year, well before I quit meat, that some random girl told me I was X-ing up for the fashion and wasn't Edge because I wasn't vegan. She didn't know shit about Edge or hardcore, and five minutes later (after 2 or 3 Edge kids told her she was retarded), she knew it.

Also, although I haven't been to hardcore shows overseas, mates of mine have, and they still describe Edge as being what I laid out. If a Brazilian who believed Edge required veganism did so, he or she would presumably return with the news that it...uh...didn't include veganism.


Originally posted by xsecx The same should still hold then, there should be things external to speech. Every band that sings about edge should have a song about sex in New Zealand.

What a good point, I'll tell...umm...umm...Mishearted, who broke up, um, Evil Priest whose old drummer sold out and then quit to be replaced by a guy who wasn't in any way Edge, ummm, Brick vs Face who never mention Edge but sing about being drug free for Christ....oh, wait, that's not Edge, ummm, ummm...21 Guns who never sung about it but...oh, wait, they broke up, ummm, Kill Me Quickly...nope, half the band drinks...umm...

If I find a band in New Zealand that sings specifically about Edge, I'll pass the word on.


Originally posted by xsecx Just because alot of people think something it doesn't mean it's right.

Ah, the normative versus descriptive divide again. What are we talking about, Sec, what Edge is? Or what Edge should be?


Originally posted by xsecx The simple fact is, caffiene is a drug. It affects people. It's an additive that was used to replace cocaine in soda. It's not like there is some huge leap that needs to be made. The thing is, a can of coke does as much to you as a beer. So why is one ok and the other isn't? If something doesn't make sense, you stop doing it. If you don't spend any time thinking about what you believe and why you believe it, then why bother? The whole edger than thou stuff is bullshit. It has to do with thinking things through and living within those terms. If caffiene in soda is ok, what about energy drinks? what about herbal stimulants? Can I chew on some coca leaves if I get tired?

And, as I agree with the logic you outlined, I don't consume caffiene. However, most Straight Edge kids I know face-to-face believe firmly that it does not include caffiene and legal herbal pills etc. I think that's pretty fucking silly, but...what can I do? If I tell people where I stand, I'm preaching, blah fucking blah, people get pissed off. If I tell other people who ask about Edge that it includes caffiene, when they see an Edge kid drinking an RC, they'll give him shit for it, blah, blah.

So, what I do is refrain from drinking or consuming those substances. It gets annoying sometimes; at 3am, when another Edge kid pours you a drink, you should reaaaally be able to drink it without worrying about what it contains, but... What I do is tell people caffiene free isn't Edge, but it stems from the same underlying philosophy and I think it's silly to be Edge and drink caffiene and so on.

Also, I think the difficulty here is that you're attempting to categorise Edge as forbidding one general class of thing; mind-altering substances. I, on reflection, see it more as forbidding a series of socially accepted but unhealthy things prevalent in modern youth culture and the punk music scene. These things are drinking, smoking, illegal drug use and stupid promiscuous sex. Your view requires there to be some common defining factor that makes those things Edge, and once you've defined that factor, you expand the definition of Edge to include other things possessing that quality. I, on the other hand, see the only common factor in the things that are against Edge as the one I outlined above: They're all unhealthy and unintelligent things that're common in punk and youth culture.

While your view is mostly sound, there are a coupla flaws. Firstly, what exactly is the limit of a mind-altering substance? Panadol? Antibiotics? Vitamin tablets? Spirulina? Second...why is smoking included so strongly? I mean, it has a much lesser effect on the mind than, say, painkillers.

Also, it's similar in approach to the people who identify Edge as being poison free, not drug free, and then extend it to include all manner of poisons; meat, milk, inorganic foods, GE foods, blah, blah.


Originally posted by xsecx NZ is a very tiny subset of something much larger.

Yes, and NZ interacts with that much larger thing. Our scene does not entirely exist in isolation. Shit, in the trailer for the last Hellfest DVD, you could see kiwi kids dancing in the circle. A few weeks back, after a gig, some mates and I lay around watching overseas hardcore DVDs and counting the shout-outs to NZ kids and footage of people we know.

I find it hard to believe that the views of New Zealand's hardcore scene regarding something so bound to hardcore as Edge are that different to that of hardcore kids elsewhere. This view is supported by the many sites on the 'net that lay out Edge as I have defined it, excluding caffiene and including sex. Yeah, SXE is no internet phennomenon, and a lot of those sites are people with no connection to the hardcore scene spouting crap, but I think this can at least be indicative of an overall picture, when combined with local common usuage.

And, really, what else would you propose I do? Listen to songs? The mere lack of explicit reference isn't exclusion.

It doesn't really fucking matter that much in the end. Either way, I'm Edge, and I won't be porking randoms or drinking Coke any time soon.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
You're very good at misrepresenting someone's position, aren't you?

I didn't say Edge was silly. I said that most arguments for sex being included under the term were silly, and the grouping of it with drugs, smoking and alcohol was illogical.



your words "admittedly, it's a bloody silly collection of prohibitions, but it's a collection I abide by and am proud to claim it."

How am I misrepresenting anything?




What I did not do was say that Edge was silly. I said it was an illogical group of criteria. Expecting you to respond just you did, I listed a number of reasons why despite this I'm still proud to claim it.

Moreover, this is coming back to one of the big differences of opinion we have about what Edge is. You see it as rules; I see it as criteria. The difference is fairly subtle; either way, you can't drink, toke or smoke and be Edge. Your approach, however, implies that being Edge is the goal; if you want to be Edge, you must not drink, smoke or toke. My approach is the opposite; it puts the goal not as being Edge, but as living poison free.


How does my approach imply that being edge is the goal? How do I see it as rules and not criteria? Especially since they're pretty much the same thing. You're making assumptions as to what my mindset is, but not basing it on anything. If you are to be something, you must fit the criteria. That is how it works. If your goal is to be living poison free, sex doesn't factor into it at all, does it?



I think that people who aim to claim Edge are...silly. If you don't drink simply because that's in the rules, then your hearts in the wrong place. I don't drink, I don't even want to drink, ever, and that's why I can and do claim Edge. Too many kids seem to think now though that they wanna be Edge, so as much as they'd like to, they can't drink. That's not the way it should be.


what does that have to do with what we're discussing here?



So, likewise I don't abstain from promiscuous sex because it's in the 'rules' of Edge; I do so because of my own personal reasons. That is, I do so because things I've seen in my life lead me to believe that shagging around is not healthy or intelligent.


If that's the case, then why include anything? I don't gamble or steal or cheat. I don't have promiscuous sex and haven't. But what does any of that have to do with edge? You went one direction and now have gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with whats being discussed.




Nope, because words never change meaning overnight. This is a pretty implausible example, but even assuming that everyone around me did decide this, it still would not redefine Edge, simply because I'd still know what it meant before their strange revelation...



It's so implausible that I showed you an example of it actually happening. Why wouldn't it redefine edge, since you keep saying all that matters is common usage?




Nope, but to a Brazilian kid...would he know any better? Oh, and I really doubt that the majority of Edgers and hardcore kids in Brazil believe that. Like here, I expect that it's an ill-informed belief held only by those who have a very tenuous connection with the hardcore scene. I remember earlier this year, well before I quit meat, that some random girl told me I was X-ing up for the fashion and wasn't Edge because I wasn't vegan. She didn't know shit about Edge or hardcore, and five minutes later (after 2 or 3 Edge kids told her she was retarded), she knew it.



talk to a brazilan kid. It's the majority. a very very large majority.



Also, although I haven't been to hardcore shows overseas, mates of mine have, and they still describe Edge as being what I laid out. If a Brazilian who believed Edge required veganism did so, he or she would presumably return with the news that it...uh...didn't include veganism.


You put way too much stock into what's around you considering how small NZ is and how isolated it is from where the majority of edge people are.



What a good point, I'll tell...umm...umm...Mishearted, who broke up, um, Evil Priest whose old drummer sold out and then quit to be replaced by a guy who wasn't in any way Edge, ummm, Brick vs Face who never mention Edge but sing about being drug free for Christ....oh, wait, that's not Edge, ummm, ummm...21 Guns who never sung about it but...oh, wait, they broke up, ummm, Kill Me Quickly...nope, half the band drinks...umm...

If I find a band in New Zealand that sings specifically about Edge, I'll pass the word on.


Wait, the way you talk about it, there's a gigantic scene in NZ with tens of thousands of kids.




Ah, the normative versus descriptive divide again. What are we talking about, Sec, what Edge is? Or what Edge should be?


blah blah blah. This doesn't work when you say it conjoined with what you've said above. be consistant.




And, as I agree with the logic you outlined, I don't consume caffiene. However, most Straight Edge kids I know face-to-face believe firmly that it does not include caffiene and legal herbal pills etc. I think that's pretty fucking silly, but...what can I do? If I tell people where I stand, I'm preaching, blah fucking blah, people get pissed off. If I tell other people who ask about Edge that it includes caffiene, when they see an Edge kid drinking an RC, they'll give him shit for it, blah, blah.



yeah, because you should just accept it when things are wrong and not actually try to change peoples minds. not talk to them about it. Not get them to actually think rather than just accept.




Also, I think the difficulty here is that you're attempting to categorise Edge as forbidding one general class of thing; mind-altering substances. I, on reflection, see it more as forbidding a series of socially accepted but unhealthy things prevalent in modern youth culture and the punk music scene. These things are drinking, smoking, illegal drug use and stupid promiscuous sex. Your view requires there to be some common defining factor that makes those things Edge, and once you've defined that factor, you expand the definition of Edge to include other things possessing that quality. I, on the other hand, see the only common factor in the things that are against Edge as the one I outlined above: They're all unhealthy and unintelligent things that're common in punk and youth culture.


So chewing tobacco isn't prevalent, is that ok? snuff? Caffiene is socially accept but unhealthy and common in punk and youth culture., so why wouldn't it be included? What about new things that come along? MDMA wasn't around then. So I can take extasy? And what's promiscious sex? What's the criteria for that? How do I know when I broke edge ?




While your view is mostly sound, there are a coupla flaws. Firstly, what exactly is the limit of a mind-altering substance? Panadol? Antibiotics? Vitamin tablets? Spirulina? Second...why is smoking included so strongly? I mean, it has a much lesser effect on the mind than, say, painkillers.


1st How do antibiotics alter your mental state? Vitamin tablets? I have no clue what panadol or spirulina, but if they're like the other two, they're not mind altering.

Nicotine addiction is as strong as herion. You might want to rethink your second statement. Also, go back and read where I said recreational. If someone is taking painkillers recreationally, guess what? not edge.






yet you include sex? way to side step most of what I actually said though.


[quote]
Yes, and NZ interacts with that much larger thing. Our scene does not entirely exist in isolation. Shit, in the trailer for the last Hellfest DVD, you could see kiwi kids dancing in the circle. A few weeks back, after a gig, some mates and I lay around watching overseas hardcore DVDs and counting the shout-outs to NZ kids and footage of people we know.

I find it hard to believe that the views of New Zealand's hardcore scene regarding something so bound to hardcore as Edge are that different to that of hardcore kids elsewhere. This view is supported by the many sites on the 'net that lay out Edge as I have defined it, excluding caffiene and including sex. Yeah, SXE is no internet phennomenon, and a lot of those sites are people with no connection to the hardcore scene spouting crap, but I think this can at least be indicative of an overall picture, when combined with local common usuage.


Yeah, like people not saying moshing? Everyone I know that is over the age of 18 and edge agrees with me about the sex portion of it. The only people that I have talked to about it have been younger and have a bunch of weird hang ups with sexuality in general and use the "no sex" shit as a crutch.




And, really, what else would you propose I do? Listen to songs? The mere lack of explicit reference isn't exclusion.

It doesn't really fucking matter that much in the end. Either way, I'm Edge, and I won't be porking randoms or drinking Coke any time soon.

in something that has lasted for over 20 years, you can point to 1 song. 1 external reference within the culture. If it's so important, it should be talked about and discussed. But it's not. And the reason it's not is because no one cares who's fucking what. Especially given the shit that kids in bands actually do.

All I want is one simple answer. What breaks edge in terms of sex?

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xsecx
your words "admittedly, it's a bloody silly collection of prohibitions, but it's a collection I abide by and am proud to claim it."

How am I misrepresenting anything?

Okay, you got me. My mistake. I should not have said that, and on reflection do not know why I did.

The points remains that I answered your question before you asked it though.


Originally posted by xsecx
How does my approach imply that being edge is the goal? How do I see it as rules and not criteria?

Because in the past I stated that I did not think Edge was a set of rules but a set of criteria, and you came down on me like a tonne of bricks.


Originally posted by xsecx
Especially since they're pretty much the same thing.

You know, I knew you'd say that, which is why I pointed out that despite the superficial similarities, they were in fact different.


Originally posted by xsecx
You're making assumptions as to what my mindset is, but not basing it on anything.

Uh, no, I'm basing it on the last time we argued whether Edge was about rules.


Originally posted by xsecx
If you are to be something, you must fit the criteria. That is how it works. If your goal is to be living poison free, sex doesn't factor into it at all, does it?

Indeed. I somehow think that you missed that point of that paragraph though.


Originally posted by xsecx
what does that have to do with what we're discussing here?

Because I expected you to come in and say that criteria and rules were the same, or the it was rules not criteria, I outlined both the difference and why I thought the rules-based approach didn't work.

O'course, you went and said they were effectively the same anyway. Ho-hum.


Originally posted by xsecx
It's so implausible that I showed you an example of it actually happening.

No, it's implausible that the meaning of a word would change overnight for a small set group of people.


Originally posted by xsecx
Why wouldn't it redefine edge, since you keep saying all that matters is common usage?

Because common usuage does not change overnight. Again, you asked a question that I'd already provided the answer to. I get the feeling that you're more interested in scoring points and winning the percieved argument than actually having a worthwhile discussion...


Originally posted by xsecx
talk to a brazilan kid. It's the majority. a very very large majority.

Uh, I have spoken to "a Brazilian kid", and she isn't vegan but claims.


Originally posted by xsecx
You put way too much stock into what's around you considering how small NZ is and how isolated it is from where the majority of edge people are.

Oooh, nice, I can't have an opinion because I come from a small country. Brilliant!

Tell me what else I should put stock in? You talk a lot about the importance of the hardcore scene in defining Straight Edge. Well, New Zealand's hardcore scene is my fucking scene. It's the scene I go to shows in every bloody week, blah fucking blah.

Where else should I base my opinions? What people I don't know and have never met say on the internet? But...oh, wait, Edge ain't an internet phennomenon. Oops, can't do that!

What bands say? Hmmm...

Oh, and I already addressed the isolation point.


Originally posted by xsecx
Wait, the way you talk about it, there's a gigantic scene in NZ with tens of thousands of kids.

Ah, brilliant, misrepresentation. NZ doesn't have a huge scene, 'cause it ain't a huge bloody place. I've never said it was big or important.

What I have and will say is that it's pretty small, and pretty close-knit, and most of it's core seems to've escaped the trends, violence and elitest bullshit that we hear about from overseas.


Originally posted by xsecx yeah, because you should just accept it when things are wrong and not actually try to change peoples minds. not talk to them about it. Not get them to actually think rather than just accept.[/b]

Did you miss the part where I said I've had this argument, pissed my mates off, said where I stand, then given up? Do you preach to your friends, Sec? Do they get pissed off?


Originally posted by xsecx
So chewing tobacco isn't prevalent, is that ok? snuff? Caffiene is socially accept but unhealthy and common in punk and youth culture., so why wouldn't it be included? What about new things that come along? MDMA wasn't around then. So I can take extasy? And what's promiscious sex? What's the criteria for that? How do I know when I broke edge ?

Point taken. The question about sex and drawing a line is one I can't answer.


Originally posted by xsecx
1st How do antibiotics alter your mental state? Vitamin tablets? I have no clue what panadol or spirulina, but if they're like the other two, they're not mind altering.

Uh, I was under the impression that many antibiotics had side-effects, some of which are related one's mental state; perhaps there I'm just talking on the basis of my penecillin allergy though. Panadol (paracetemol) is a painkiller, and the tablets contain caffiene.

On the vitamins and spirulina side, they're just dietary supplements and it could be argued that your diet has a great effect on your mental state.

The point I'm trying to make is that, like many things in life, there's no clear line between mind-altering and not. There is a continuum, and different people draw the line at different places.

Oh, and you might want to rethink your comments about caffiene being put in Coke to replace the cocaine:


So, yes, at one time there was cocaine in Coca-Cola. But before you're tempted to run off claiming Coca-Cola turned generations of drinkers into dope addicts, consider the following: back in 1885 it was far from uncommon to use cocaine in patent medicines (which is what Coca-Cola was originally marketed as) and other medical potions. When it first became general knowledge that cocaine could be harmful, the backroom chemists who comprised Coca-Cola at the time (long before it became the huge company we now know) did everything they could with the technology they had available at the time to remove every trace of cocaine from the beverage. What was left behind (until the technology improved enough for it all to be removed) wasn't enough to give a fly a buzz.

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/cocaine.asp

One, no mention of caffiene. Two, cocaine was originally seen as potentially medicinal. Three, well before it became a popular soft drink, the amount of cocaine was too small to give any kind of high.

Oh, and Coke was the only soda to contain cocaine.


Originally posted by xsecx
Nicotine addiction is as strong as herion. You might want to rethink your second statement.

Addiction is not equivilent to mind-alteration; it's mere chemical dependancy. I would argue that the nature and extent of the high given is a better measure of its effect on the mind.


Originally posted by xsecx
Also, go back and read where I said recreational. If someone is taking painkillers recreationally, guess what? not edge.

So it's Edge to smoke pot for medicinal purposes?


Originally posted by xsecx
yet you include sex? way to side step most of what I actually said though.

I was under the impression that I conceded most of what you said and addressed the rest. If you can point out where I did not do so...

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xsecx
Yeah, like people not saying moshing? Everyone I know that is over the age of 18 and edge agrees with me about the sex portion of it. The only people that I have talked to about it have been younger and have a bunch of weird hang ups with sexuality in general and use the "no sex" shit as a crutch.

I'm not quite sure what your point about the not saying moshing bit was, but I presume you were trying to score a cheap point, as seems sadly to be your habit.

Everyone I've spoken to face-to-face, in contrast, be they younger than eighteen or over, has agreed on the no promiscuous sex part.

I'm not entirely sure why you seem to think that disliking pointless hookups for lust not love is the result of some "weird hang up" not simple common sense, especially given your own views on the matter.


Originally posted by xsecx
in something that has lasted for over 20 years, you can point to 1 song. 1 external reference within the culture. If it's so important, it should be talked about and discussed. But it's not. And the reason it's not is because no one cares who's fucking what. Especially given the shit that kids in bands actually do.

All I want is one simple answer. What breaks edge in terms of sex?

Generally, I take the broadest reasonable interpretation of Edge with my own life, and the narrowest when criticising others. Therefore, I probably wouldn't accuse anyone of breaking Edge for sleeping around, although others might.

I'd still think it was fucking stupid though, and if it ended up hurting a mate, I might confront the person involved and tell them just what I thought of them. But...

I give up. You aren't interested in discussing or debating. It seems to me that you're more interested in arguing and scoring cheap points. Maybe I'm just in a shitty mood 'cause of my uni exams, but I can't be fucked with this. Even when I concede points, you accuse me of side-stepping the issue.

In short, I can't be fucked with this argument. Like I said above, it doesn't fucking matter. I'll still claim Edge either way, I still won't be a preachy self-righteous dick to my mates, I still won't fuck around and I still won't drink caffiene or take painkillers unnecessarily. And I'll still say I've made a commitment I'll take to my grave, even if people argue about what exactly it is. I know what it means to me, and I know what it means to my mates.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
[B]
Because in the past I stated that I did not think Edge was a set of rules but a set of criteria, and you came down on me like a tonne of bricks.


A set of rules and a set of criteria are the same thing. Trying to justify it by calling it something different so you feel like you're not judgemental doesn't really work.



You know, I knew you'd say that, which is why I pointed out that despite the superficial similarities, they were in fact different.


Main Entry: cri·te·ri·on
Pronunciation: krI-'tir-E-&n also kr&-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural cri·te·ria /-E-&/; also -ri·ons
Etymology: Greek kritErion, from krinein to judge, decide -- more at CERTAIN
1 : a standard on which a judgment or decision may be based


Main Entry: 1rule
Pronunciation: 'rül
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English reule, from Old French, from Latin regula straightedge, rule, from regere to direct -- more at RIGHT
1 a : a prescribed guide for conduct or action b : the laws or regulations prescribed by the founder of a religious order for observance by its members c : an accepted procedure, custom, or habit d (1) : a usually written order or direction made by a court regulating court practice or the action of parties (2) : a legal precept or doctrine e : a regulation or bylaw governing procedure or controlling conduct
2 b : a standard of judgment : CRITERION

they're the same thing. Rules are made up of criteria.




Indeed. I somehow think that you missed that point of that paragraph though


The point of the conversation was about sex and it's place in edge. using terms like poison free doesn't make sense while talking about sex. that's the point. .



Because I expected you to come in and say that criteria and rules were the same, or the it was rules not criteria, I outlined both the difference and why I thought the rules-based approach didn't work.


except that they're the same thing. your logic and language are flawed.



O'course, you went and said they were effectively the same anyway. Ho-hum.


because, they are.



No, it's implausible that the meaning of a word would change overnight for a small set group of people.


Why? terms change all the time, why is it so implausible? If there was a reason for it to change, which would be the catalyst why wouldn't it?




Because common usuage does not change overnight. Again, you asked a question that I'd already provided the answer to. I get the feeling that you're more interested in scoring points and winning the percieved argument than actually having a worthwhile discussion...


You didn't answer it. Things have changed in different places in the world over a short period of time. That's a matter of fact. But since it doesn't fit into your scheme you call it implausible.



Uh, I have spoken to "a Brazilian kid", and she isn't vegan but claims.


and I'm sure she's scene and is super involved in things too? You want to explain the question from the brazilian kid who came here asking about then? Or all the brazilan kids on orkut and myspace that talk about it?




Oooh, nice, I can't have an opinion because I come from a small country. Brilliant!


Which carries more weight globally, a small sample from a small sample or a small sample from a larger group? It's pretty simple.



Tell me what else I should put stock in? You talk a lot about the importance of the hardcore scene in defining Straight Edge. Well, New Zealand's hardcore scene is my fucking scene. It's the scene I go to shows in every bloody week, blah fucking blah.

Where else should I base my opinions? What people I don't know and have never met say on the internet? But...oh, wait, Edge ain't an internet phennomenon. Oops, can't do that!

What bands say? Hmmm...

Oh, and I already addressed the isolation point.


I forgot, straight edge began and flourished in NZ so whatever a bunch of kids in NZ say and think about it must be univeral? You keep talking about how you have repeated discussions about this topic. IF that's the case and it's so universally understood, why do you think that is?




Did you miss the part where I said I've had this argument, pissed my mates off, said where I stand, then given up? Do you preach to your friends, Sec? Do they get pissed off?


I talk to people. repeatedly.



Point taken. The question about sex and drawing a line is one I can't answer.


Then how is it a criteria?




Uh, I was under the impression that many antibiotics had side-effects, some of which are related one's mental state; perhaps there I'm just talking on the basis of my penecillin allergy though. Panadol (paracetemol) is a painkiller, and the tablets contain caffiene.

On the vitamins and spirulina side, they're just dietary supplements and it could be argued that your diet has a great effect on your mental state.

The point I'm trying to make is that, like many things in life, there's no clear line between mind-altering and not. There is a continuum, and different people draw the line at different places.



There is a very clear line, it's just one you want to ignore for the sake of your argument.



Oh, and you might want to rethink your comments about caffiene being put in Coke to replace the cocaine:

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/cocaine.asp

One, no mention of caffiene. Two, cocaine was originally seen as potentially medicinal. Three, well before it became a popular soft drink, the amount of cocaine was too small to give any kind of high.

Oh, and Coke was the only soda to contain cocaine.


oh ok. so I can take small doses of coke now! sweet! The facts are still the same. it contained cocaine, it was removed and replaced with caffiene. There is no medical reason for the addition of caffeine.



Addiction is not equivilent to mind-alteration; it's mere chemical dependancy. I would argue that the nature and extent of the high given is a better measure of its effect on the mind.


you don't understand the nature of addiction or what it actually does to the brains chemistry, do you? What do you think a chemical depedence is?

http://health.howstuffworks.com/nicotine4.htm




So it's Edge to smoke pot for medicinal purposes?


why would it be any less edge than if you took morphine for pain?

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
[B]I'm not quite sure what your point about the not saying moshing bit was, but I presume you were trying to score a cheap point, as seems sadly to be your habit.



I didn't realize valid points were cheap points? The point being that there are things well established and used outside of NZ that are accepted everywhere else, the moshing bit is an example of this.



Everyone I've spoken to face-to-face, in contrast, be they younger than eighteen or over, has agreed on the no promiscuous sex part.


So what happens if you travel and talk to more people and more people tell you otherwise, like the people you have repeated discussions, like this one do?



I'm not entirely sure why you seem to think that disliking pointless hookups for lust not love is the result of some "weird hang up" not simple common sense, especially given your own views on the matter.


because of using terms like lust not love brings a completely seperate morality into it that doesn't make sense. I think lots of things are wrong, but that doesn't make them related to edge.





Generally, I take the broadest reasonable interpretation of Edge with my own life, and the narrowest when criticising others. Therefore, I probably wouldn't accuse anyone of breaking Edge for sleeping around, although others might.


They why even have this argument?




I give up. You aren't interested in discussing or debating. It seems to me that you're more interested in arguing and scoring cheap points. Maybe I'm just in a shitty mood 'cause of my uni exams, but I can't be fucked with this. Even when I concede points, you accuse me of side-stepping the issue.


How am I not? Also it's hard to tell what's conceding points and what's sarcasm.

[DcDuckee]

Originally posted by straightXed
cool, but what would you personally say promiscuous was, wheres the line with that?


i would say it's having casual sex with different partners and not having any relationship with them. like a fling or something.

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx




Learn to "give up, not give in." Once you reach that kid of scale with Dusty, you cannot win, he has more time to spend on it than you could dream of.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Sean The Red
Learn to "give up, not give in." Once you reach that kid of scale with Dusty, you cannot win, he has more time to spend on it than you could dream of.

what's that supposed to mean?

[xsecx]

since I guess Joey doesn't want to play anymore. I'll pose this question to anyone that holds his viewpoint.

if everyone that is edge today died and all that was left were zines, writings and songs, would anyone think sex was a major issue within the community?

If you think sex is a major deal, why do you think that? The idea of common usage has already been pointed out as flawed and so far no one has been able to point to any reference other than Out of Step.

[xdaddydaycorex]

sex positive hardcore / bloodpact

i can see how its easy for youth to get carried away with celebacy and anti-sex platforms given this day and age. when just when their coming to term with developing instincts, the lingering specter of exploitation, unplanned pregancy, disease and aids, rears its ugly head. how in the hell are they supposed to figure it out, with so many conflicting voices at all times? how in the hell are they supposed to figure it out? when sanctuary is so easily found in the straight line. i guess i can see how the third line in "out of step" can become the catholic guilt of the new day. instead of simply anti-obsession and anti-expolitation, it becomes the excuse for self-denial and dangerous repression. how in the hell are they supposed to figure it out? so sanctuary is so easily sought in the straight line. it's so fucking hard to develop a sex positive ideal in the face of objectification on one hand and old-age repression on the other. rather than the expression of being alive, it reflexs a culture that exploits. rather than skin, sweat, blood and life, bodies become cold, unfeeling, dead.

[Sean The Red]

Originally posted by xsecx
what's that supposed to mean?

It means that when you set your mind on making a point, you wont stop. Once it reaches essay proporations, you can tell you have a point to make, and arguing is pointless.

[Xx-Ky-xX]

Personaly i belive to much of anything is bad and it also depends on the casue. For example i drink wine with my dad every once in a while at dinner witch i dont find bad but if i was to raid the frigg wit my friend to get beer is bad. Also i have nothing aginst having sex but underage sex (under 18)expecialy unprotected sex is bad.


(ps Yes i know i barly spelt anything right but im tired so deal with it : ) )

[xJoeyNormalx]

You won't let it rest, will you, Sec?

As you brought this up in an entirely irrelevant thread, I have decided to return to this thread to counter your pointless and ongoing attacks on me based on this argument.

I understand that if I wish to discuss anything civilly with you in any other thread on this website, I must continue this argument.

Before I do so, I will stress that I think your style of arguing is generally logically weak, relying more on stamina and pure stubborness than anything else. Only when the evidence you present speaks for itself do you truly seem to succeed.


Originally posted by xsecx
[B]when you fail to back up your statements with well, thoughtout responses, why should I respect you or what you say? Especially when the lynchpin of your arguement is/was "because all my friends think so"

I will endeavor to treat you with politeness and respect, as I do not have enough knowledge to fairly judge you.

The fact that you are willing to judge me based solely on one argument we have had online say, I would say, a lot more about you than about me.

But, to be honest, I do not really mind if you like me or not. We are unlikely to ever meet.

However, if you are genuinely interested in hearing others opinions - as you claimed to be in the sex thread - then you would treat people with differing opinions with courtesy and respect, for the simple reason that when you do not do so, they tend to see no reason to continue the discussion with you and leave.

...unless they're stubborn bastards like me.

You accuse me of being unable to support my arguments adequately. On the contrary, while I must concede, as I have done, that on certain points I was wrong, I believe that in the sum of both of our two recent debates, an unbiased observer would see more merit in my argument than in yours.

The simple reason for that is that while you present effective points and argue your own case well, you have continually failed to come to grips with my position and refute my arguments. You have attempted to caricature them and win through cheap point scoring and personal blather.

In effect, you have reduced my argument to a straw man. You have created a version of it which is easier to respond to, and happily dance around claiming that your argument is the stronger. This can be seen in your claim that " the lynchpin" of my "arguement is/was "because all my friends think so"' and the assertion that this, peer pressure, is what I base my beliefs on.

Firstly, you are failing to comprehend the concept of common-usuage.
Secondly, you are failing to realise that all we were arguing was semantics. The only belief of mine in question was what the term "Straight Edge" meant. What the term means, out of the options listed, has no real bearing on me, my life or my beliefs about things that actually matter (IE, not mere semantics). Whether or not I am a Straight Edge kid who also abstains from caffiene or a Straight Edge kid who also abstain from promiscuous sex is not exactly an important issue, in my mind.

Were I basing my beliefs about whether or not I should consume caffiene or engage in promiscuous sex, then you might perhaps have a valid point. Common-usuage can determine what a word means, but it can not and should not determine how you live your life.

So, let's compare our two positions in the previous debate, eh?

You argued by induction that sex should not be included under Edge and caffiene should. You took three agreed upon precepts of Edge and took from them an underlying rule, which you then extended. This argument has two key flaws. Firstly, there is no reason to assume that there must be any underlying rule. The three (or four) criteria of Edge could well be entirely unrelated. Secondly, it is possible to induce several different underlying rules from the three/four criteria. I provided a counter-example of a rule that covered the four, including sex, as you may recall.

Inductive reasoning is never deductively valid. It is always possible to, for any inductive argument, provide alternative rules.

In addition, you never did seem to come to grips with the difference between what things are and what things should be.

I, in contrast, conceded that maybe Edge shouldn't involve sex, from a logical standpoint. However, I argued that as with any term not defined in a dictionary, we should turn to common usuage for a definition. As I have no first-hand experience outside the New Zealand hardcore scene, and, as your website so clearly states "Straight Edge is not an internet phenomenon", so I really shouldn't refer to the one real source of direct information I have about what the common-usuage is overseas. Perhaps the NZHC scene is not a representative sample; I refered then to the people I know, friends or not, who've been overseas and returned and who have never countered my views. I also stated that this is in accordance with the very flawed sample that is the internet.

In response to this, you blathered on a bit about how small the NZ hardcore scene was (relevance?) and then boiled my argument down to an inane straw man. I think the complete unsoundness of that attempted refutation goes without saying, really.

Your strongest point countering my common-usuage argument was the assertion that if it was indeed the common meaning of the term, it would probably have been refered to in a number of hardcore songs. This does not, however, disprove my point; it simply questions it. The mere fact that something is not stated does not mean that people don't believe it. It does not establish that promiscuous sex is not part of Edge; rather it questions whether or not it might be.

Now, I fully expect you to miss the point of this post, as seems to be your habit, and to create another straw man. I also expect you to belittle the NZ hardcore scene, stray quite close to personally attacking me, confuse what is with what should be, and generally fail absolutely to refute my position or support your own. Ho-hum.

Oh, and do you eat chocolate?

I will end by asking why, as we agree that all the things possibly covered by Edge - promiscuous sex and legal mind-altering substances - are things that it is unadvisable for us to indulge in, why is the mere semantic issue of how we define the term "Straight Edge" so damn important?

[straightXed]

You won't let it rest, will you, Sec?

As you brought this up in an entirely irrelevant thread, I have decided to return to this thread to counter your pointless and ongoing attacks on me based on this argument.

I understand that if I wish to discuss anything civilly with you in any other thread on this website, I must continue this argument.

Before I do so, I will stress that I think your style of arguing is generally logically weak, relying more on stamina and pure stubborness than anything else. Only when the evidence you present speaks for itself do you truly seem to succeed.



I will endeavor to treat you with politeness and respect, as I do not have enough knowledge to fairly judge you.

The fact that you are willing to judge me based solely on one argument we have had online say, I would say, a lot more about you than about me.

But, to be honest, I do not really mind if you like me or not. We are unlikely to ever meet.

However, if you are genuinely interested in hearing others opinions - as you claimed to be in the sex thread - then you would treat people with differing opinions with courtesy and respect, for the simple reason that when you do not do so, they tend to see no reason to continue the discussion with you and leave.

...unless they're stubborn bastards like me.

You accuse me of being unable to support my arguments adequately. On the contrary, while I must concede, as I have done, that on certain points I was wrong, I believe that in the sum of both of our two recent debates, an unbiased observer would see more merit in my argument than in yours.

The simple reason for that is that while you present effective points and argue your own case well, you have continually failed to come to grips with my position and refute my arguments. You have attempted to caricature them and win through cheap point scoring and personal blather.

In effect, you have reduced my argument to a straw man. You have created a version of it which is easier to respond to, and happily dance around claiming that your argument is the stronger. This can be seen in your claim that " the lynchpin" of my "arguement is/was "because all my friends think so"' and the assertion that this, peer pressure, is what I base my beliefs on.

So in short you are saying your argument didn't stand and you have taken it all personally.


Firstly, you are failing to comprehend the concept of common-usuage.
Secondly, you are failing to realise that all we were arguing was semantics. The only belief of mine in question was what the term "Straight Edge" meant. What the term means, out of the options listed, has no real bearing on me, my life or my beliefs about things that actually matter (IE, not mere semantics). Whether or not I am a Straight Edge kid who also abstains from caffiene or a Straight Edge kid who also abstain from promiscuous sex is not exactly an important issue, in my mind.

Were I basing my beliefs about whether or not I should consume caffiene or engage in promiscuous sex, then you might perhaps have a valid point. Common-usuage can determine what a word means, but it can not and should not determine how you live your life.

So, let's compare our two positions in the previous debate, eh?

You argued by induction that sex should not be included under Edge and caffiene should. You took three agreed upon precepts of Edge and took from them an underlying rule, which you then extended. This argument has two key flaws. Firstly, there is no reason to assume that there must be any underlying rule. The three (or four) criteria of Edge could well be entirely unrelated. Secondly, it is possible to induce several different underlying rules from the three/four criteria. I provided a counter-example of a rule that covered the four, including sex, as you may recall.

Inductive reasoning is never deductively valid. It is always possible to, for any inductive argument, provide alternative rules.

In addition, you never did seem to come to grips with the difference between what things are and what things should be.

I, in contrast, conceded that maybe Edge shouldn't involve sex, from a logical standpoint. However, I argued that as with any term not defined in a dictionary, we should turn to common usuage for a definition. As I have no first-hand experience outside the New Zealand hardcore scene, and, as your website so clearly states "Straight Edge is not an internet phenomenon", so I really shouldn't refer to the one real source of direct information I have about what the common-usuage is overseas. Perhaps the NZHC scene is not a representative sample; I refered then to the people I know, friends or not, who've been overseas and returned and who have never countered my views. I also stated that this is in accordance with the very flawed sample that is the internet.

In response to this, you blathered on a bit about how small the NZ hardcore scene was (relevance?) and then boiled my argument down to an inane straw man. I think the complete unsoundness of that attempted refutation goes without saying, really.

Your strongest point countering my common-usuage argument was the assertion that if it was indeed the common meaning of the term, it would probably have been refered to in a number of hardcore songs. This does not, however, disprove my point; it simply questions it. The mere fact that something is not stated does not mean that people don't believe it. It does not establish that promiscuous sex is not part of Edge; rather it questions whether or not it might be.

Now, I fully expect you to miss the point of this post, as seems to be your habit, and to create another straw man. I also expect you to belittle the NZ hardcore scene, stray quite close to personally attacking me, confuse what is with what should be, and generally fail absolutely to refute my position or support your own. Ho-hum.

Oh, and do you eat chocolate?

I will end by asking why, as we agree that all the things possibly covered by Edge - promiscuous sex and legal mind-altering substances - are things that it is unadvisable for us to indulge in, why is the mere semantic issue of how we define the term "Straight Edge" so damn important?

If you don't have a definition for straight edge or any term its meaning becomes bland and unclear until it really means nothing at all.

I believe the reason of this whole argument is to define how exactly you can break edge in terms of sex. The general consensus seems to advocate the abstinance of drinking and taking drugs, sex seems to be very unclear grey area. You have to constitute what is promiscuous etc. People do see it as part of straightedge but there is little to no consistancy within that belief.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
You won't let it rest, will you, Sec?

As you brought this up in an entirely irrelevant thread, I have decided to return to this thread to counter your pointless and ongoing attacks on me based on this argument.

I understand that if I wish to discuss anything civilly with you in any other thread on this website, I must continue this argument.

Before I do so, I will stress that I think your style of arguing is generally logically weak, relying more on stamina and pure stubborness than anything else. Only when the evidence you present speaks for itself do you truly seem to succeed.



The irony of this statement is amazing. You lack the ability to back up what you say, adhere to any kind of logic, but claim that my style is logically weak, when my style is and has always been based on logic. Your ego gets in your way .



I will endeavor to treat you with politeness and respect, as I do not have enough knowledge to fairly judge you.

The fact that you are willing to judge me based solely on one argument we have had online say, I would say, a lot more about you than about me.


and here's your ego talking again andfeeling hurt.



But, to be honest, I do not really mind if you like me or not. We are unlikely to ever meet.

However, if you are genuinely interested in hearing others opinions - as you claimed to be in the sex thread - then you would treat people with differing opinions with courtesy and respect, for the simple reason that when you do not do so, they tend to see no reason to continue the discussion with you and leave.


Why should I treat you with respect when you're asked questions you can't answer you claim I'm logically weak and making cheap points?



You accuse me of being unable to support my arguments adequately. On the contrary, while I must concede, as I have done, that on certain points I was wrong, I believe that in the sum of both of our two recent debates, an unbiased observer would see more merit in my argument than in yours.

The simple reason for that is that while you present effective points and argue your own case well, you have continually failed to come to grips with my position and refute my arguments. You have attempted to caricature them and win through cheap point scoring and personal blather.


Or it could be that your ego is viewing it as such, as your belief structure makes no sense and is baseless. I would also be intrigued as to how an unbiased observer would automatically see more merit in your argument when you haven't actually provided any evidence.



In effect, you have reduced my argument to a straw man. You have created a version of it which is easier to respond to, and happily dance around claiming that your argument is the stronger. This can be seen in your claim that " the lynchpin" of my "arguement is/was "because all my friends think so"' and the assertion that this, peer pressure, is what I base my beliefs on.


or more realistically that you don't have anything else to point to as evidence so you use that. The only thing you've said is that of common usage, but failed to provide any evidenceof that other than "all the people I talk to face to face think this". This is why your argument is weak. and why you're feelings are hurt.



Firstly, you are failing to comprehend the concept of common-usuage.
Secondly, you are failing to realise that all we were arguing was semantics. The only belief of mine in question was what the term "Straight Edge" meant. What the term means, out of the options listed, has no real bearing on me, my life or my beliefs about things that actually matter (IE, not mere semantics). Whether or not I am a Straight Edge kid who also abstains from caffiene or a Straight Edge kid who also abstain from promiscuous sex is not exactly an important issue, in my mind.


How am I failing to comprehend the concept of common usage? Especially when I refute it as paramount by point to another example of it?



Were I basing my beliefs about whether or not I should consume caffiene or engage in promiscuous sex, then you might perhaps have a valid point. Common-usuage can determine what a word means, but it can not and should not determine how you live your life.


and here you're making the assumption that I believe a term should dictate your life,. I don't. and I never have said that. have I? For a term to make sense, it must have a definition. People who claim that term, must also fit that definiton. You are assuming, because it fits your needs that I am saying if you are straight edge you must do this and this and this. When in fact I believe that if you believe x, y and z you are straight edge. I also believe that if you are going to assume the term to describe you and your life that you would actually think and look at your own life and actions and live in accordance to those. Your entire concept in regards to this doesn't make any sense and it's as if you think something shouldn't be defined. which is pointles.



So, let's compare our two positions in the previous debate, eh?

You argued by induction that sex should not be included under Edge and caffiene should. You took three agreed upon precepts of Edge and took from them an underlying rule, which you then extended. This argument has two key flaws. Firstly, there is no reason to assume that there must be any underlying rule. The three (or four) criteria of Edge could well be entirely unrelated. Secondly, it is possible to induce several different underlying rules from the three/four criteria. I provided a counter-example of a rule that covered the four, including sex, as you may recall.


actually, if you look back, you're the one that brought up caffeine and painkillers. I love how you make statements as if you have some sort of authority to do so. There is a long and firm standing association among what edge kids consider "bad" universally. It's a universal belief not questioned, yet you somehowthink that they could be entirely unrelate, when they in fact are. And wait, I thought you didn't believe in rules? Your "rule" was faulty and questions were posed to it that you ignored accusing me of making "cheap points"




Inductive reasoning is never deductively valid. It is always possible to, for any inductive argument, provide alternative rules.

In addition, you never did seem to come to grips with the difference between what things are and what things should be.


says the one who can't provide evidence except me and my friends think this so it must be right.



I, in contrast, conceded that maybe Edge shouldn't involve sex, from a logical standpoint. However, I argued that as with any term not defined in a dictionary, we should turn to common usuage for a definition. As I have no first-hand experience outside the New Zealand hardcore scene, and, as your website so clearly states "Straight Edge is not an internet phenomenon", so I really shouldn't refer to the one real source of direct information I have about what the common-usuage is overseas. Perhaps the NZHC scene is not a representative sample; I refered then to the people I know, friends or not, who've been overseas and returned and who have never countered my views. I also stated that this is in accordance with the very flawed sample that is the internet.


by your own admission the nz scene is heavily christian. That fact alone makesit not a representative sample. Also, how often does this come up with your friends offline? Did you make a point of asking all your friends who have traveled abroad is they discussed this particular thing? you're insulated, you need to come to terms with that.



In response to this, you blathered on a bit about how small the NZ hardcore scene was (relevance?) and then boiled my argument down to an inane straw man. I think the complete unsoundness of that attempted refutation goes without saying, really.


truth hurts kiwi.



Your strongest point countering my common-usuage argument was the assertion that if it was indeed the common meaning of the term, it would probably have been refered to in a number of hardcore songs. This does not, however, disprove my point; it simply questions it. The mere fact that something is not stated does not mean that people don't believe it. It does not establish that promiscuous sex is not part of Edge; rather it questions whether or not it might be.



this is why you fail. that and your lack of ability to use words economically. You have NOTHING to point to outside yourself.
this however is probably my favorite statement of all time "The mere fact that something is not stated does not mean that people don't believe it. " genius.



Now, I fully expect you to miss the point of this post, as seems to be your habit, and to create another straw man. I also expect you to belittle the NZ hardcore scene, stray quite close to personally attacking me, confuse what is with what should be, and generally fail absolutely to refute my position or support your own. Ho-hum.


I ask a very pointed question above this, you ignore it. You make claims of people missing the point of this posts, when you don't actually make any.



Oh, and do you eat chocolate?


go look up the caffeine threads or make a new post if you want to go down this road.



I will end by asking why, as we agree that all the things possibly covered by Edge - promiscuous sex and legal mind-altering substances - are things that it is unadvisable for us to indulge in, why is the mere semantic issue of how we define the term "Straight Edge" so damn important?

because i think murder is unadvisable along with a shitload of other things. i think the sexual repression that ends up being a side effect of beliving that sex is bad and should be avoided is unhealthy and has more to do with other enforcing their sense of morality than to encouraging clear minds. Things need to be focused to be important. Without a defintion you have nothing.

also if you want me or anyone else to respond to your shit in the future, you need to cut the length down, since a shitload of what you post is fluff. and the software won't handle it.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by Xx-Ky-xX
Personaly i belive to much of anything is bad and it also depends on the casue. For example i drink wine with my dad every once in a while at dinner witch i dont find bad but if i was to raid the frigg wit my friend to get beer is bad. Also i have nothing aginst having sex but underage sex (under 18)expecialy unprotected sex is bad.


(ps Yes i know i barly spelt anything right but im tired so deal with it : ) )

you know the occasional glass of wine you're drinking makes you not straight edge right?

[xdaddydaycorex]

Originally posted by xsecx
you know the occasional glass of wine you're drinking makes you not straight edge right?

what about bong hits while listening to dear furious AND i've X'd both my hands? that counter-acts the bong hits right?

[straightXed]

Originally posted by XracerX
what about bong hits while listening to dear furious AND i've X'd both my hands? that counter-acts the bong hits right?

surely it depends if you inhaled or not?

[xJoeyNormalx]

I will not respond to much of what you said, either because I feel we've already covered it on AIM or because it would only contribute to continuing what is, really, just pointless personal bickering.


Originally posted by xsecx

How am I failing to comprehend the concept of common usage? Especially when I refute it as paramount by point to another example of it?

I don't see how you refuted it. What is paramount instead?

This other example being songs, zines etc?

Here all I can say is that the mere lack of something being stated does not mean that it does not exist. It is possible that sex remains are a part of Edge, but for whatever the reason people didn't write songs about it.

I will concede, however, that sex may not be part of Edge. Our much more constructive (and polite, and respectful!) conversation via AIM convinced me of that.

I will go on claiming Edge, because both by your definition and by that popular here, I am, and I am proud of that. I am proud also to be identified with the other Edge kids I know in the real world. Moreover, I don't value internet discussion boards enough for them to change where I stand on that sorta thing.

(Just like I don't let my friend's ideas change my beliefs but do let them change how I define terms)


Originally posted by xsecx
and here you're making the assumption that I believe a term should dictate your life,. I don't. and I never have said that. have I? For a term to make sense, it must have a definition. People who claim that term, must also fit that definiton. You are assuming, because it fits your needs that I am saying if you are straight edge you must do this and this and this. When in fact I believe that if you believe x, y and z you are straight edge. I also believe that if you are going to assume the term to describe you and your life that you would actually think and look at your own life and actions and live in accordance to those. Your entire concept in regards to this doesn't make any sense and it's as if you think something shouldn't be defined. which is pointles.

No, I think it should be defined. Like I said, I take the broadest possible interpretation of Edge in my own life, and the narrowest in criticising others. As by either meaning, I am Edge, and as this argument will not ever create a universally accepted interpretation of Edge, I don't see it as that important.

I also see the three criteria of no illegal drugs, no smoking and no drinking as being the most important tenets of Edge, and they are what we are in agreeance on. The definition here, on what I see as most important, is not under debate. To me, sex is less important than those three as it, as you've made clear, is so hard to define and to draw a line.

The problem comes in to trying to create an accepted definition on the more fringe parts of Edge.


Originally posted by xsecx
It's a universal belief not questioned, yet you somehowthink that they could be entirely unrelate, when they in fact are.

It cannot be unquestioned that caffiene etc is part of Edge, when perhaps 95% of the Straight Edge kids I know drink RC Cola and coffee.


Originally posted by xsecx

says the one who can't provide evidence except me and my friends think this so it must be right.

Sigh, here we again...


Originally posted by xsecx
by your own admission the nz scene is heavily christian.

Whoa, hold up, you misread me here. The NZ scene is not heavily Christian; my friends who are Edge, so the people whose opinions about Edge I know the most clearly, are predominantly Christian.

The Auckland scene is in fact quite anti-Christian, with the most highly regarded band, Evil Priest, being called...uh...Evil Priest, and writing songs like "Fucked by God". The Hamilton scene is largely Christian, and many of the shows are put on by Nontoxic, a division of Youth For Christ. Tauranga is also quite JC. Wellington doesn't have much of a hardcore scene, nor does the South Island, and the area between the 07 (Hams and TGA) and Welly seems to developed it's own weird bloody skinhead hardcore thug gangsta thing that makes no sense to anyone else at all and didn't exist last year and probably won't exist next year.

I live in Auckland, which is also NZ's biggest city, with a third of the country's population. So...the NZ scene isn't actually predominantly JC.



Originally posted by xsecx
Also, how often does this come up with your friends offline? Did you make a point of asking all your friends who have traveled abroad is they discussed this particular thing? you're insulated, you need to come to terms with that.

Perhaps I am. No offence to you though, but I kinda like being in a county where Terror can play without fights or security guys, and where most of our shows don't even have a stage and bandmembers spend a lot of the night dancing or moshing or whatever with the crowd.

We don't often discuss what Edge means amongst ourselves; it's generally taken as a given. However, often (pop-)punk kids or bogans or just people who wanna know why we have Xs on our hands will ask what Edge is. The "no promiscuous sex" line is invariably mentioned, although generally last and kinda hesitantly, because it is not as clear and simple as the others.


Originally posted by xsecx
truth hurts kiwi.

Indeed, you must be in agony, sorry (cheap and silly, I know, but it was too easy to miss).


Originally posted by xsecx

this however is probably my favorite statement of all time "The mere fact that something is not stated does not mean that people don't believe it. " genius.

I believe the world is round. I don't tend to say this, but it is still a given.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
[quote]
I don't see how you refuted it. What is paramount instead?


It's your argument, you tell me.



This other example being songs, zines etc?


Anything.



Here all I can say is that the mere lack of something being stated does not mean that it does not exist. It is possible that sex remains are a part of Edge, but for whatever the reason people didn't write songs about it.

I will concede, however, that sex may not be part of Edge. Our much more constructive (and polite, and respectful!) conversation via AIM convinced me of that.


what is the far more likely reason? Especially since these are bands who's existance is to spread the message. If there isn't evidence to point it, it can't be relevant.



I will go on claiming Edge, because both by your definition and by that popular here, I am, and I am proud of that. I am proud also to be identified with the other Edge kids I know in the real world. Moreover, I don't value internet discussion boards enough for them to change where I stand on that sorta thing.

(Just like I don't let my friend's ideas change my beliefs but do let them change how I define terms)


then why talk on them at all about anything?



No, I think it should be defined. Like I said, I take the broadest possible interpretation of Edge in my own life, and the narrowest in criticising others. As by either meaning, I am Edge, and as this argument will not ever create a universally accepted interpretation of Edge, I don't see it as that important.

I also see the three criteria of no illegal drugs, no smoking and no drinking as being the most important tenets of Edge, and they are what we are in agreeance on. The definition here, on what I see as most important, is not under debate. To me, sex is less important than those three as it, as you've made clear, is so hard to define and to draw a line.

The problem comes in to trying to create an accepted definition on the more fringe parts of Edge.


If you feel this way, again, then why talk about it?



It cannot be unquestioned that caffiene etc is part of Edge, when perhaps 95% of the Straight Edge kids I know drink RC Cola and coffee.


Then 95% of the straight edge kids you know don't practice what they preach.



Whoa, hold up, you misread me here. The NZ scene is not heavily Christian; my friends who are Edge, so the people whose opinions about Edge I know the most clearly, are predominantly Christian.

The Auckland scene is in fact quite anti-Christian, with the most highly regarded band, Evil Priest, being called...uh...Evil Priest, and writing songs like "Fucked by God". The Hamilton scene is largely Christian, and many of the shows are put on by Nontoxic, a division of Youth For Christ. Tauranga is also quite JC. Wellington doesn't have much of a hardcore scene, nor does the South Island, and the area between the 07 (Hams and TGA) and Welly seems to developed it's own weird bloody skinhead hardcore thug gangsta thing that makes no sense to anyone else at all and didn't exist last year and probably won't exist next year.

I live in Auckland, which is also NZ's biggest city, with a third of the country's population. So...the NZ scene isn't actually predominantly JC.


or perhaps you misread what I said. Why would I be talking about a larger scene when what we're discussing here is straight edge? You have this extremely annoying habit of blaming other people for "misreading" when you keep doing it yourself.





Perhaps I am. No offence to you though, but I kinda like being in a county where Terror can play without fights or security guys, and where most of our shows don't even have a stage and bandmembers spend a lot of the night dancing or moshing or whatever with the crowd.


yeah and the reason you can is because it's small. not because of the nature of your scene.



We don't often discuss what Edge means amongst ourselves; it's generally taken as a given. However, often (pop-)punk kids or bogans or just people who wanna know why we have Xs on our hands will ask what Edge is. The "no promiscuous sex" line is invariably mentioned, although generally last and kinda hesitantly, because it is not as clear and simple as the others.


If you don't discuss it amongst yourselves then how do you know what everyone around you thinks? If it's so important then why would people say it hesitantly if that is what is really believed vs what they think the people around them want to hear?




I believe the world is round. I don't tend to say this, but it is still a given. [/B]

yeah and this isn't relevant at all

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xsecx
It's your argument, you tell me.

Uh, Sec, I think you'll find it's your argument. You said you had established common usuage isn't paramount. Therefore you must have found something else that is. It's your argument, and I'm asking you what it is...


Originally posted by xsecx
Anything.

what is the far more likely reason? Especially since these are bands who's existance is to spread the message. If there isn't evidence to point it, it can't be relevant.

Indeed, which is why I conceded that promiscuous sex and Edge, contrary to my previous beliefs, might not be related, despite the common-usuage in NZ.

You have this strange way of not noticing when someone else concedes a point.


Originally posted by xsecx
then why talk on them at all about anything?

'Cause I'm bored and it kills time?


Originally posted by xsecx
If you feel this way, again, then why talk about it?

You asked "can anyone try and make the argument for sex". I did so. I talked about it because you asked me and anyone else to do so.


Originally posted by xsecx
Then 95% of the straight edge kids you know don't practice what they preach.

Nope. They say that Edge has nothing to do with caffiene and that it's about illegal drugs not legal ones. They practice what they preach, just what they preach is overly narrow and really quite silly.


Originally posted by xsecx
or perhaps you misread what I said. Why would I be talking about a larger scene when what we're discussing here is straight edge? You have this extremely annoying habit of blaming other people for "misreading" when you keep doing it yourself.

Perhaps I misread what you said? Well, okay, let's see what you said then: "by your own admission the nz scene is heavily christian.". The NZ scene, presumably, being NZHC (so SXE) scene. That's the scene we're talking about, right? And I never admitted, despite your assertion, that it was mostly Christian. I then listed off the local scenes in NZ, by city, and which were JC. I then pointed out that Auckland was the largest, and as it is predominantly anti-JC, the NZ HXC scene is not mostly Christian.

What exactly did I misread?

Let's look at it again: "by your own admission the nz scene is heavily christian." Uh, no, it's not. And don't pretend that you meant the Edge scene exclusively not the hardcore scene, because we both know how closely related those two are.

I said that most of my friends who're Edge are also JC. You misread that (or did, uh, something to it) and claimed I had said the NZ scene was mostly JC, which I did not.

I think it's obvious who misread who.


Originally posted by xsecx If you don't discuss it amongst yourselves then how do you know what everyone around you thinks?

Because they say it's part of Edge when asked by people who're new to hardcore and to Edge.


Originally posted by xsecx
If it's so important then why would people say it hesitantly if that is what is really believed vs what they think the people around them want to hear?

They say it hesitantly because they are used to ill-informed nuts who think Edge means no sex at all, so hesitate in giving these people, who have no connection to Edge or the hardcore scene, any ammunition.


Originally posted by xsecx
yeah and this isn't relevant at all

It was an example of how the mere fact that you don't say something doesn't mean you don't believe it.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Uh, Sec, I think you'll find it's your argument. You said you had established common usuage isn't paramount. Therefore you must have found something else that is. It's your argument, and I'm asking you what it is...


It isn't paramount because there are other examples, like brazil where it is completely different and accepted. If common usage was paramount, it would in fact be universally common. it's not.



'Cause I'm bored and it kills time?


then your time must not be very valuable.



You asked "can anyone try and make the argument for sex". I did so. I talked about it because you asked me and anyone else to do so.


so if I ask you to prove dark matter are you going to?



Nope. They say that Edge has nothing to do with caffiene and that it's about illegal drugs not legal ones. They practice what they preach, just what they preach is overly narrow and really quite silly.


So are they ok with the usage of pain killers recreationally? Alcohol is legal. the concept of legal illegal is pointless.




Perhaps I misread what you said? Well, okay, let's see what you said then: "by your own admission the nz scene is heavily christian.". The NZ scene, presumably, being NZHC (so SXE) scene. That's the scene we're talking about, right? And I never admitted, despite your assertion, that it was mostly Christian. I then listed off the local scenes in NZ, by city, and which were JC. I then pointed out that Auckland was the largest, and as it is predominantly anti-JC, the NZ HXC scene is not mostly Christian.

What exactly did I misread?

Let's look at it again: "by your own admission the nz scene is heavily christian." Uh, no, it's not. And don't pretend that you meant the Edge scene exclusively not the hardcore scene, because we both know how closely related those two are.

I said that most of my friends who're Edge are also JC. You misread that (or did, uh, something to it) and claimed I had said the NZ scene was mostly JC, which I did not.



and you just did it again. "Why would I be talking about a larger scene when what we're discussing here is straight edge?"

you really should read AND think about things before you just respond.



I think it's obvious who misread who.


yes it is.



Because they say it's part of Edge when asked by people who're new to hardcore and to Edge.

They say it hesitantly because they are used to ill-informed nuts who think Edge means no sex at all, so hesitate in giving these people, who have no connection to Edge or the hardcore scene, any ammunition.


Ammunition about what? if it's part of it, and univerally so, why be shy about it?




It was an example of how the mere fact that you don't say something doesn't mean you don't believe it.

except that it doesn't apply here. It's a verbal history. Everything else is spoken, quite often actually.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Originally posted by xsecx
It isn't paramount because there are other examples, like brazil where it is completely different and accepted. If common usage was paramount, it would in fact be universally common. it's not.

Okay, so if you think it's not paramount, what do you think is?


Originally posted by xsecx
then your time must not be very valuable.

Indeed. When this debate started, I was in the middle of my final exams for the year. My time then was very valuable, but I was procrastinating, as you do. Now, my four month summer holiday has just started. I'm looking at picking up more hours at work, but that won't kick in for a week or two. As most of my friends are either working or still sitting exams (I had four in five days, so finished very early). So, I don't have that much to do at the moment.


Originally posted by xsecx
So are they ok with the usage of pain killers recreationally?

Some are, yes. Others aren't, but say it isn't Edge. Others take my stance and yours.

They see the prohibition of alcohol as being entirely seperate to that of drugs.


Originally posted by xsecx
and you just did it again. "Why would I be talking about a larger scene when what we're discussing here is straight edge?"

you really should read AND think about things before you just respond.

Touche, my dear, touche.

The NZ Edge scene and the NZ hardcore scene are closely bound together. When I spoke of the former, I also spoke of the latter. Most Edge kids in NZ are not Christian and I never said they were.


Originally posted by xsecx
yes it is.

Indeed, seeing as you did it again when you thought I was refering to the NZ hardcore scene not the Edge scene, when they're almost one and the same.


Originally posted by xsecx
Ammunition about what? if it's part of it, and univerally so, why be shy about it?

Ammunition for what I said.

Because you don't want people to misunderstand you and take it as no sex at all, so you have to be cautious and careful when explaining it that they don't.


Originally posted by xsecx
except that it doesn't apply here. It's a verbal history. Everything else is spoken, quite often actually.

Please find me one reference to caffiene as part of Edge in a song.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Okay, so if you think it's not paramount, what do you think is?


logic




Indeed. When this debate started, I was in the middle of my final exams for the year. My time then was very valuable, but I was procrastinating, as you do. Now, my four month summer holiday has just started. I'm looking at picking up more hours at work, but that won't kick in for a week or two. As most of my friends are either working or still sitting exams (I had four in five days, so finished very early). So, I don't have that much to do at the moment.


so basically everyone should just disregard anything you say then.



Some are, yes. Others aren't, but say it isn't Edge. Others take my stance and yours.


Only some? Most?



They see the prohibition of alcohol as being entirely seperate to that of drugs.


so why do they think this?



The NZ Edge scene and the NZ hardcore scene are closely bound together. When I spoke of the former, I also spoke of the latter. Most Edge kids in NZ are not Christian and I never said they were.


no you made a misleading statement that now turns out to be completely irrelevant since most edge kids in NZ believe sex is apart of edge, but most aren't.



Indeed, seeing as you did it again when you thought I was refering to the NZ hardcore scene not the Edge scene, when they're almost one and the same.


one might exist within the other, but they aren't the same. and you can't even get this part right. You just can't accept that your shit is wack, can you?



Ammunition for what I said.

Because you don't want people to misunderstand you and take it as no sex at all, so you have to be cautious and careful when explaining it that they don't.


How can people misunderstand you when they have no previous knowledge on a subject and you're telling them specifically what it is? How can someone misunderstand you when you say promiscious?



Please find me one reference to caffiene as part of Edge in a song.

You know full well I can't. Just like I can't find one on special K, oxycotin, mdma or any other list of drugs. Especially since most drugs aren't named. that'd be like me asking you to find me a song that says no blowjobs.

[xJoeyNormalx]

Well, I was listening to some Judge songs I had on a mixed MP3CD* while clearing a path a mate's place, and I just happened to notice the lyrics to Fed Up:


Smoking that butt
It makes you mature
A slave to sex
And you tell me you're pure
You slam that beer
It makes you a man

Wasn't sure if it was sex or cigs at first, but a search on Google seems to confirm that it's sex.

Looks like I found myself a song.

* When I'm eligible for a credit card, I will buy all their shit I can. Until then, I only have my MP3s...pity me.

[Sean The Red]

Why are you two wasting so much energy on this?

[xsecx]

Originally posted by xJoeyNormalx
Well, I was listening to some Judge songs I had on a mixed MP3CD* while clearing a path a mate's place, and I just happened to notice the lyrics to Fed Up:



Wasn't sure if it was sex or cigs at first, but a search on Google seems to confirm that it's sex.

Looks like I found myself a song.

* When I'm eligible for a credit card, I will buy all their shit I can. Until then, I only have my MP3s...pity me.

wow. one line in one song. one line that doesn't talk about being anything other than being a slave to sex, which could happen in monogomous relationship.

yeah. you found yourself a song that doesn't really illustrate your point at all.
so 2 songs that mention sex at all vs several thousand. you've convinced me.

[straightXed]

i like that song.

[sabresnmets]

i dont do drugs, i dont smoke cigarrettes, i dont drink alcohol im in a relationship with my girlfriend of two plus years. i listen to hardcore music, but thats not enough. i stopped drinking soda, but no. thats not enough either apparently snapple (thank you dusty) has mad caffiene in it as well. i cant win.

[Straightedgecat]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
i dont do drugs, i dont smoke cigarrettes, i dont drink alcohol im in a relationship with my girlfriend of two plus years. i listen to hardcore music, but thats not enough. i stopped drinking soda, but no. thats not enough either apparently snapple (thank you dusty) has mad caffiene in it as well. i cant win. yes you can

[straightXed]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
i dont do drugs, i dont smoke cigarrettes, i dont drink alcohol im in a relationship with my girlfriend of two plus years. i listen to hardcore music, but thats not enough. i stopped drinking soda, but no. thats not enough either apparently snapple (thank you dusty) has mad caffiene in it as well. i cant win.

I can win and i get to drink soda, its easy.

[sabresnmets]

its weird, i tried to stop drinking soda. and i was all proud of myself. totally straightedge. then someone, im not saying who, totally burst my bubble. "snapple has just as much caffiene as soda, if not more" than supported his comment with a nice chart. it sucked. but its good to know i guess.

[xsecx]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
its weird, i tried to stop drinking soda. and i was all proud of myself. totally straightedge. then someone, im not saying who, totally burst my bubble. "snapple has just as much caffiene as soda, if not more" than supported his comment with a nice chart. it sucked. but its good to know i guess.

I'm just saying. you can very easily make decaf ice tea. or buy turkey hill decaf ice tea which is much better than snapples.

[sabresnmets]

Originally posted by xsecx
I'm just saying. you can very easily make decaf ice tea. or buy turkey hill decaf ice tea which is much better than snapples.


see, heres my prob. i dont like any other iced tea, and i dont drink water (i know ed, its so good bla bla) so its really the only thing ill drink.

[linsee]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
see, heres my prob. i dont like any other iced tea, and i dont drink water (i know ed, its so good bla bla) so its really the only thing ill drink.

i was like that with diet coke. but i didnt drink any pop for 2 weeks and now its weird. i like water and juice a lot more.

[sabresnmets]

yeah i very rarely drink SODA but i will if im out and theres nothing else to drink.

[linsee]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
yeah i very rarely drink SODA but i will if im out and theres nothing else to drink.

its pop here. i work at a store and the sign for the aisle says "pop".

but try other stuff for a while if you want to stop consuming caffeine. your tastes will change if you try enough other stuff.

[sabresnmets]

yeah i tried to drink shit like vitamin water and fruit 2o or someshit like that. they all suck.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
see, heres my prob. i dont like any other iced tea, and i dont drink water (i know ed, its so good bla bla) so its really the only thing ill drink.

the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one, hehehe. What i don't get is if you really want to drink caffiene products why you wouldn't, i mean if its that much of a problem for you?!

[sabresnmets]

Originally posted by straightXed
the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one, hehehe. What i don't get is if you really want to drink caffiene products why you wouldn't, i mean if its that much of a problem for you?!



honestly im trying to better myself. i am like 140 and im like five foot 10. i cant gain weight for the life of me. i go to the gym three times a week, and drink weight gainer like its water. i eat like crap cause im trying to gain weight, so any healthier i can be the better.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
honestly im trying to better myself. i am like 140 and im like five foot 10. i cant gain weight for the life of me. i go to the gym three times a week, and drink weight gainer like its water. i eat like crap cause im trying to gain weight, so any healthier i can be the better.

ok just a question but why do you want to gain weight?

[sabresnmets]

Originally posted by straightXed
ok just a question but why do you want to gain weight?


i hate being so damn skinny.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
i hate being so damn skinny.

fair enough, i still don't get why, especially don't get why you would eat like crap to do so.

[sabresnmets]

Originally posted by straightXed
fair enough, i still don't get why, especially don't get why you would eat like crap to do so.


its all about the calories.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
its all about the calories.


yeah but you can eat healthy and get a lot of calories still, i mean to me the healthiest type of rice out there is whole grain brown rice and it has more calories than other rice. Avacados have a lot of calories in, more than chocolate bars and then theres eggs of course. I eat fairly healthy and generally have an equal amount of calories to the amount of energy used, i am a pretty active person, i train most days and i have an active job so i have a fairly large calorie intake and i would say my diet is healthy. I know putting on and taking off weight is hard, i would have to at least double my intake of calories to gain a pound and vice versa for loss. Now to lose weight you can excercise and stuff but to gain weight you can't do to much because activity uses muscle and muscle uses energy from calories, basically if you are after being healthy and gaining weight its going to take some time, in fact it would be easier for someone to loose weight and get healthy. I'm sure you know all of this but out of interest what is your calorie intake for the day?

[sabresnmets]

2500 usually i dont have enough time in the day for more, on good days ill take in 3000-3500 but its hard to find the time. i can lose weight so easily. over the summer i was working in a camp so i was active and ate like pbj sandwiches everyday. plus i couldnt afford my wieght gainer shakes, and was a lazy piece of shit and barely went to the gym. i lost twenty pounds.

[straightXed]

Originally posted by sabresnmets
2500 usually i dont have enough time in the day for more, on good days ill take in 3000-3500 but its hard to find the time. i can lose weight so easily. over the summer i was working in a camp so i was active and ate like pbj sandwiches everyday. plus i couldnt afford my wieght gainer shakes, and was a lazy piece of shit and barely went to the gym. i lost twenty pounds.

You need to get organized with that shit, losing weight rapidly is bad so is gaining it to fast, you need to set yourself out a system in which you can intake more calories, get your self a food calorie chart and make sure you eat healthy, i take in about 2500 - 3000 most days. You need to give your body a steady intake so its used to what its getting and will begin to store it, if you have good day and bad days it will constantly be burning any stored calories as well as muscle.

[sabresnmets]

Originally posted by straightXed
You need to get organized with that shit, losing weight rapidly is bad so is gaining it to fast, you need to set yourself out a system in which you can intake more calories, get your self a food calorie chart and make sure you eat healthy, i take in about 2500 - 3000 most days. You need to give your body a steady intake so its used to what its getting and will begin to store it, if you have good day and bad days it will constantly be burning any stored calories as well as muscle.

cool thanks