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View Full Version : Selling Out...It's the american thing to do



Dyin2LiveHrdcor
04-09-2004, 08:57 AM
Why is everyone worried about scenes and bands selling out? You know its bound to happen. "Hardcore is selling out" Of course they are, everyone sells out. We're all too greedy for our own kind. Dont't get me wrong, I'm not up to the selling out of bands and such, but thats what happens when too many kids like you and shit. So when someone sells out...don't complain about that shit, move on to another band. Hell....make up your own goddamn band. But remember this: Being rich is the american dream, and to sell out is to become rich.

xsecx
04-09-2004, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Dyin2LiveHrdcor
Why is everyone worried about scenes and bands selling out? You know its bound to happen. "Hardcore is selling out" Of course they are, everyone sells out. We're all too greedy for our own kind. Dont't get me wrong, I'm not up to the selling out of bands and such, but thats what happens when too many kids like you and shit. So when someone sells out...don't complain about that shit, move on to another band. Hell....make up your own goddamn band. But remember this: Being rich is the american dream, and to sell out is to become rich.

not necessarily. and you can become rich without compromising your beliefs. Selling out isn't being popular or even being mainstream. it's about going against what you believe for some other reason. In that sense, I don't think hardcore is selling out. If you look at hatebreed. they haven't changed. they're still doing what they've been doing for years, it's just that right now the market is paying attention and in a few years, that same market will be paying attention to someone and something else.

Dyin2LiveHrdcor
04-09-2004, 09:04 AM
'Tis true. Hatebreed has remained the same. I guess there can be a few exceptions.

flame_still_burns
04-09-2004, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Dyin2LiveHrdcor
'Tis true. Hatebreed has remained the same. I guess there can be a few exceptions.

i had more of a band like fugazi in mind. they have kept their prices low and refused to cave into major labels.

hatebreed plays 20 dollar shows and sells their shirts for 25 bucks now.

xsecx
04-09-2004, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by flame_still_burns
i had more of a band like fugazi in mind. they have kept their prices low and refused to cave into major labels.

hatebreed plays 20 dollar shows and sells their shirts for 25 bucks now.

yeah but fugazi are able to keep prices low because of unique reasons that aren't available to a band that only gets revenue from what they generate.

flame_still_burns
04-09-2004, 02:29 PM
i disagree... in fact i'd venture to say fugazi is more responsible for providing dischord with money than visa versa. i think it is a very simple premise when it comes to fugazi... don't overcharge for your records, play shows for a decent price, and don't allow anyone to take control of your artistic output.

when i am writing this i am assuming you are saying that since ian is half owner of dischord it allows him much more latitude in his choices. sure, it can't hurt that he is the man putting out these records -but- what is stopping anyone else from doing this same thing? i know dischord benefits greatly from a widespread distribution network. but if the argument is about selling out how can you not say that hatebreed playing music for a major label is not selling out. the purpose of major labels is to make money. there is no artistic integrity with major labels, if it doesn't sell it's projected amount it is dropped and replaced by something else. hatebreed's music is a corporate product now... am i criticizing them for their choices, no. but i know how much it costs to make a shirt, and i know how much kids should pay to see bands, and i think they have sold that for major label rock and roll dreams.

ps: i never even liked them when they were on independent labels....

xsecx
04-09-2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by flame_still_burns
i disagree... in fact i'd venture to say fugazi is more responsible for providing dischord with money than visa versa. i think it is a very simple premise when it comes to fugazi... don't overcharge for your records, play shows for a decent price, and don't allow anyone to take control of your artistic output.

when i am writing this i am assuming you are saying that since ian is half owner of dischord it allows him much more latitude in his choices. sure, it can't hurt that he is the man putting out these records -but- what is stopping anyone else from doing this same thing? i know dischord benefits greatly from a widespread distribution network. but if the argument is about selling out how can you not say that hatebreed playing music for a major label is not selling out. the purpose of major labels is to make money. there is no artistic integrity with major labels, if it doesn't sell it's projected amount it is dropped and replaced by something else. hatebreed's music is a corporate product now... am i criticizing them for their choices, no. but i know how much it costs to make a shirt, and i know how much kids should pay to see bands, and i think they have sold that for major label rock and roll dreams.

ps: i never even liked them when they were on independent labels....


I'm saying fugazi is a special case. When they started dischord was already established, MacKaye was already established and extremely well known. I don't think using them as an example is fair due in large part to the those 2 facts. It's not a formula that just any band can duplicate and it's not something that will scale out. I've never liked hatebreed, but right now they're about as big as earth crisis were at their height. but I wouldn't classify either band as sellouts, however EC playing shows sponsored by beer companies is a totally different discussion. I don't see how not changing how you sound or how you look equates to selling out just because you're on a major.

flame_still_burns
04-09-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by xsecx
I'm saying fugazi is a special case. When they started dischord was already established, MacKaye was already established and extremely well known. I don't think using them as an example is fair due in large part to the those 2 facts. It's not a formula that just any band can duplicate and it's not something that will scale out. I've never liked hatebreed, but right now they're about as big as earth crisis were at their height. but I wouldn't classify either band as sellouts, however EC playing shows sponsored by beer companies is a totally different discussion. I don't see how not changing how you sound or how you look equates to selling out just because you're on a major.

i'll give you that fugazi is a special case and we'll throw them out of the discussion.

my thoughts are this. major labels have no interest in the history of hardcore. they have no interest in getting new kids into the scene or doing things to make it better. they care about latching onto the work of kids for the last 20 plus years and siphoning as much money out of it as possible until the next youth subculture genre presents itself. the music has become a commodity, and it is being sold my men in suits in highrise skyscrapers, as opposed to kids who put out records because they love the music and they don't care if they break even or even lose money.

i can appreciate that bands want to get bigger and sell more records and play to more people... but we are allowing people outside of our world to manufacture our product for us and i don't like it. these people will never understand how it feels to be standing in some crappy club, crammed in with a hundred other kids, screaming at the top of your lungs to your favorite band, who are nothing but kids like you. i just feel hardcore loses it essence when they sanitize it and package it for the masses via major labels.

so yes, i think that bands that sell shirts for 25 dollars and play 25 dollar shows and have contract riders and hotel rooms have sold out the true meaning of hardcore. this to me is for kids by kids...

maybe they didn't change their sound... but i think they have dollar signs in their eyes.

xsecx
04-09-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by flame_still_burns
i'll give you that fugazi is a special case and we'll throw them out of the discussion.

my thoughts are this. major labels have no interest in the history of hardcore. they have no interest in getting new kids into the scene or doing things to make it better. they care about latching onto the work of kids for the last 20 plus years and siphoning as much money out of it as possible until the next youth subculture genre presents itself. the music has become a commodity, and it is being sold my men in suits in highrise skyscrapers, as opposed to kids who put out records because they love the music and they don't care if they break even or even lose money.

i can appreciate that bands want to get bigger and sell more records and play to more people... but we are allowing people outside of our world to manufacture our product for us and i don't like it. these people will never understand how it feels to be standing in some crappy club, crammed in with a hundred other kids, screaming at the top of your lungs to your favorite band, who are nothing but kids like you. i just feel hardcore loses it essence when they sanitize it and package it for the masses via major labels.

so yes, i think that bands that sell shirts for 25 dollars and play 25 dollar shows and have contract riders and hotel rooms have sold out the true meaning of hardcore. this to me is for kids by kids...

maybe they didn't change their sound... but i think they have dollar signs in their eyes.

you're right, I never looked at it from that perspective. It's just hard for me to fault people for wanting to be more successful, but on the flip side you end up with bands like AFI who are fucking shit up even though they're not doing it intentionally and had the best intentions that got horribly fucked up by teenagers.

flame_still_burns
04-09-2004, 03:19 PM
you're right... we see this influx of people into hardcore as a result of certain bands. on one hand i see it as good that people are coming into the scene, but on the other hand it worries me.

the world is so different from when you and i got into hardcore. it used to be so inaccesible that only the people willing to find it ended up here. now with the advent of the internet, you can find out so much and by so many records and listen to mp3's that it has become a different animal. i suppose i need to come to terms with the fact that it is bound to change and evolve...but i am resisitant. i know how good it feels to be a part of what this really is...to be in that club screaming. i want it to keep the same essence...so i am protective of it.

Bordeo
04-10-2004, 02:19 AM
Selling out, every band you listen to, save maybe the indie artists have sold out. Listen to Maynard, for Maynard is wise "I sold out long before you ever even heard my name I sold my soul to make a record dipshit and you bought one, All you ever read or hear or see on TV is a product beggin for your dirty dollar, shut up and buy my new record" The music industry is just that, an industry, we can bitch and moan and say this band sold out or that band sold out, in the end we buy into it by buying the records. We make them sell out, we are the consumer. Welcome to capitilism, its fucked up, and pretty fucking hard to change.

sabresnmets
04-10-2004, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by xsecx
you're right, I never looked at it from that perspective. It's just hard for me to fault people for wanting to be more successful, but on the flip side you end up with bands like AFI who are fucking shit up even though they're not doing it intentionally and had the best intentions that got horribly fucked up by teenagers.



i know what you mean, i know you guys dont like tbs, but i do and i dont expect too many people high school kids are listening to it, thats what really chaps my ass.

flame_still_burns
04-10-2004, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Bordeo
Selling out, every band you listen to, save maybe the indie artists have sold out.

we are in a community where 99 plus percent of the bands ARE indie... despite the fact that some quote unquoute hardcore band has videos on mtv or is on a major label. for every one of those bands there are 100 bands that are playing in dirty clubs, or people's basements, or wherever they can...

the route people arrive at the doorstep of straight edge hardcore is vastly different now. people are getting here as a result of bands lke AFI or hatebreed or who-ever-else. the problem with that is those people are accustomed to the artist/consumer relationship... one where the band comes to town, you buy a ticket at ticketmaster, go, pay 5 dollars to park, buy a 25 dollar shirt, and clap loudly as the play their encore from beyond the security staff. whereas hardcore is all about doing it yourself. finding a venue, calling the band yourself, making flyers, having the show, hanging out with the band, having them crash at your house. try that with AFI these days, they used to be like that because they once played in my living room, but i don't think they'd go for that now.

we all have to arrive here somehow. but what is of genuine concern to me is that these people without the DIY ethic will never pick up on the fact that this at its core has always been for us and by us... and by all of us doing our part, we keep this thing going.

sabresnmets
04-10-2004, 10:41 AM
afi was in your living room? thats cool.

xvunderx
04-10-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by flame_still_burns
you're right... we see this influx of people into hardcore as a result of certain bands. on one hand i see it as good that people are coming into the scene, but on the other hand it worries me.

the world is so different from when you and i got into hardcore. it used to be so inaccesible that only the people willing to find it ended up here. now with the advent of the internet, you can find out so much and by so many records and listen to mp3's that it has become a different animal. i suppose i need to come to terms with the fact that it is bound to change and evolve...but i am resisitant. i know how good it feels to be a part of what this really is...to be in that club screaming. i want it to keep the same essence...so i am protective of it.

I think these fact that things are more accesable is a kind of double edged sword. I think it is a good thing that kids living in little black holes out there can fin out about it, and can want to be a part of it. I was one of those kids, but I lived in my blackhole for nearly all of my life, and was pretty misserable because of it. There was no Hardcore, there was no alternative, when I started dressing "funny" it was huge news, my sister heard about it everyday at school, we had a teached who was a got and at the age of 16 no one in that class room knew what the fuck that was. I think it's great that those kids can find things now, and can get active rather then sitting in their bedroom thinking there must be more out there, but have no idea where of what.

I do think that alot of people getting involved as a result don't have any understanding. Perhaps that is something we have to activly work to "fix" bringing to their attention that there is more to the thin film on MTV and more meaning in a word they might see on a sticker in HotTopic.

I used to try when I was DJing at the club I used to work at, about 70% of the kids that came in were into the next big MTV2 band, so I used to try and mix it up with other lesser known bands, recomend stuff to them, have free zines available when possible stuff like that, it wasn't a lot but i got a good few kids to look a bit deeper than than New Found glory.

Perhaps putting more zines out, and working with sites like this we can make a small impact. If all these kids see is a huge band on a massive stage seperated by bouncers in glossy mags they'd be lucky to get onto a letters page in. Can we really blame them for not knowing? and for feeling the divide? somehow I guess its up to the people who care to show these kids that Hardcore doesnt have barriers or seperation.

Bordeo
04-10-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by flame_still_burns
we are in a community where 99 plus percent of the bands ARE indie... despite the fact that some quote unquoute hardcore band has videos on mtv or is on a major label. for every one of those bands there are 100 bands that are playing in dirty clubs, or people's basements, or wherever they can...

the route people arrive at the doorstep of straight edge hardcore is vastly different now. people are getting here as a result of bands lke AFI or hatebreed or who-ever-else. the problem with that is those people are accustomed to the artist/consumer relationship... one where the band comes to town, you buy a ticket at ticketmaster, go, pay 5 dollars to park, buy a 25 dollar shirt, and clap loudly as the play their encore from beyond the security staff. whereas hardcore is all about doing it yourself. finding a venue, calling the band yourself, making flyers, having the show, hanging out with the band, having them crash at your house. try that with AFI these days, they used to be like that because they once played in my living room, but i don't think they'd go for that now.

we all have to arrive here somehow. but what is of genuine concern to me is that these people without the DIY ethic will never pick up on the fact that this at its core has always been for us and by us... and by all of us doing our part, we keep this thing going.

In the end, the ultimate reason MOST peple get into making music is to make money, and with the DIY ethic they can look back and see where they have come from. The best concerts I have been to, save TOOL in Baltimore, have been in somebodys living room. Having 50 plus kids packed into a small room moshing and screaming together, its great, but unless you live in a town where that kind of thing happens, which is mostly cities or college towns, your screwed when it comes to hearing anykind of hardcore music unless you fork over the money. Selling out gets the music to the masses, but at the same time a lot of bands lose the sound that gave them their first fans when they performed the $2 show in somebodys living room.

xsecx
04-10-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Bordeo
In the end, the ultimate reason MOST peple get into making music is to make money, and with the DIY ethic they can look back and see where they have come from. The best concerts I have been to, save TOOL in Baltimore, have been in somebodys living room. Having 50 plus kids packed into a small room moshing and screaming together, its great, but unless you live in a town where that kind of thing happens, which is mostly cities or college towns, your screwed when it comes to hearing anykind of hardcore music unless you fork over the money. Selling out gets the music to the masses, but at the same time a lot of bands lose the sound that gave them their first fans when they performed the $2 show in somebodys living room.

if you think the ultimate reason hardcore kids are in bands is to make money you honestly don't get it.

Bordeo
04-11-2004, 03:54 AM
I am not speaking just in Hardcore music, I am talking in general. There is always the exception and the exception is the ones who are truly in it for the music they love. In the end I am saying the music industry kills and makes everything in music. Most influences of todays hardcore music comes from a long chain that eventually leads to the same roots, for hardcore punk the roots are The Sex Pistols or the Ramones, but even they were influnced. To sell out brings the music to the masses, and in the end influences the kid with a guitar who wants to make the music he loves, whether in his own garage with his closest friends, in a living room with 50 people, or to a sold out arena. We can love the music that everyone doesn't know about, but we all know that we loved the band everyone knew at first. For some it may have been Kiss or Zeppelin, or Sabbath, and that led down the line until they come across that indie band that keeps the Underground scene alive and kicking. I am not saying that everyone wants to make lots of money either. Its something that may have been a dream years ago, when we didnt know any better, but for a lot of the generic mainstream bands it is the only reason still, Sex Drugs and Rock and Roll. Pick and choose through the lines carefully, because i am sure only one line will be picked out and commented on, and the main point will probably go unnoticed.

xsecx
04-11-2004, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by Bordeo
I am not speaking just in Hardcore music, I am talking in general. There is always the exception and the exception is the ones who are truly in it for the music they love. In the end I am saying the music industry kills and makes everything in music. Most influences of todays hardcore music comes from a long chain that eventually leads to the same roots, for hardcore punk the roots are The Sex Pistols or the Ramones, but even they were influnced. To sell out brings the music to the masses, and in the end influences the kid with a guitar who wants to make the music he loves, whether in his own garage with his closest friends, in a living room with 50 people, or to a sold out arena. We can love the music that everyone doesn't know about, but we all know that we loved the band everyone knew at first. For some it may have been Kiss or Zeppelin, or Sabbath, and that led down the line until they come across that indie band that keeps the Underground scene alive and kicking. I am not saying that everyone wants to make lots of money either. Its something that may have been a dream years ago, when we didnt know any better, but for a lot of the generic mainstream bands it is the only reason still, Sex Drugs and Rock and Roll. Pick and choose through the lines carefully, because i am sure only one line will be picked out and commented on, and the main point will probably go unnoticed.

yeah, but the topic that is being discussed is hardcore music, not music in general, so when you make statements about the music industry that don't relate to hardcore it doesn't make any sense and would probably be better served with a new topic all together.

Straightedgecat
04-11-2004, 09:41 AM
I disagree my opinion is that if we just keep on supporting our Hardcore bands then they will not have to look other places for money as the person who started this post said..

Straightedgecat
04-11-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by xsecx
if you think the ultimate reason hardcore kids are in bands is to make money you honestly don't get it.

I strongly dissagree my friend.. Hardcore kids start bands so they can be more part of the scene or give back to the scene.. or they just start a band for fun... its not all for money you corrupt little boy..

xsecx
04-11-2004, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Straightedgecat
I strongly dissagree my friend.. Hardcore kids start bands so they can be more part of the scene or give back to the scene.. or they just start a band for fun... its not all for money you corrupt little boy..

huh? you strongly disagree by agreeing with me?

Straightedgecat
04-11-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by xsecx
huh? you strongly disagree by agreeing with me?

My deepest apologies xsecx i meant to quote the "bordoe" thread the one that you were repliying to i do agree wiht you im sorry...

Riki
04-15-2004, 09:53 PM
The problem here is that alternative scenes by definiation are minority scenes. So if a band gets popularity they are seen as selling out.

Perfect example is marlyn manson, his music hasnt really changed much from the early albums (its just as bad), but he is said to have sold out, simply because he is popular.

Its pretty darn tootin unfair really, a band can be uncompromising in their ideals, but are marked as selling out because they are popular. simply because a lot of people within the alt scene have a desire to be differant..


I think i said the same thing twice there... man i need sleep.

Straightedgecat
04-16-2004, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Riki
The problem here is that alternative scenes by definiation are minority scenes. So if a band gets popularity they are seen as selling out.

Perfect example is marlyn manson, his music hasnt really changed much from the early albums (its just as bad), but he is said to have sold out, simply because he is popular.

Its pretty darn tootin unfair really, a band can be uncompromising in their ideals, but are marked as selling out because they are popular. simply because a lot of people within the alt scene have a desire to be differant..


I think i said the same thing twice there... man i need sleep.

the reason that people are considered selling out when the get big is because then they no longer support the scene.. its not just if there music changes or not which it usually does.. and hardcore isnt meant to be broadcasted nationally it is meant to be a united scene..

Dyin2LiveHrdcor
04-17-2004, 10:55 AM
If i start a band, they're name is gonna be The Sell Outs...just give everyone the heads up that they need. That way when we do sell-out...which is gonna happen...nobody can say that they suprised we sold out.

straightXed
04-17-2004, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Riki
The problem here is that alternative scenes by definiation are minority scenes. So if a band gets popularity they are seen as selling out.

Perfect example is marlyn manson, his music hasnt really changed much from the early albums (its just as bad), but he is said to have sold out, simply because he is popular.

Its pretty darn tootin unfair really, a band can be uncompromising in their ideals, but are marked as selling out because they are popular. simply because a lot of people within the alt scene have a desire to be differant..


I think i said the same thing twice there... man i need sleep. the reason that manson dude is considered a sell out is the shameless market saturation. Popularity itself does not make one a sell out its the course taken to get such popularity. people love to throw the word sell out around for some reason.

xethanx
04-18-2004, 05:06 AM
keep in mind if manson, or kobane, or vetter, or any of those big names that later complaned about how they never wanted to get big (after the fact) had any truth behind there statements they never would have signed the contract.

I mean if your in a ok band, and the president of Warrner brothers music comes up to you and says "hey kids, heres a million dollars up front, and a 4 album contract" what did they expect? did they really think that things were going to stay the same?

selling out is an active choice. it's not something that just happens on it's own.

Straightedgecat
04-18-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by xethanx
keep in mind if manson, or kobane, or vetter, or any of those big names that later complaned about how they never wanted to get big (after the fact) had any truth behind there statements they never would have signed the contract.

I mean if your in a ok band, and the president of Warrner brothers music comes up to you and says "hey kids, heres a million dollars up front, and a 4 album contract" what did they expect? did they really think that things were going to stay the same?

selling out is an active choice. it's not something that just happens on it's own.

I agree that selling out is an active choice.. but becoming big does not necisarally meen that you are a sell out it just usually comes with the territory..

xethanx
04-18-2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Straightedgecat
I agree that selling out is an active choice.. but becoming big does not necisarally meen that you are a sell out it just usually comes with the territory..

Yes, but signing your life away to a major label, and having some dryed up fuck in a suit breathing down your neck telling you to dumb down your music, cause it's not 'marketable enough' is selling out. Or at least I sure think it is.....

Straightedgecat
04-19-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by xethanx
Yes, but signing your life away to a major label, and having some dryed up fuck in a suit breathing down your neck telling you to dumb down your music, cause it's not 'marketable enough' is selling out. Or at least I sure think it is.....

I agree i think the main negative effect of bands Selling out is the dumb fuck that is breathing down the bands neck controling there music.. which when that happens you get the whole negative effect of selling out..

sxemuthafux
05-15-2004, 12:28 AM
just because a band that you like gets big doesn't mean that you have to not like them anymore.

straightXed
05-15-2004, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by sxemuthafux
just because a band that you like gets big doesn't mean that you have to not like them anymore.

unless they get shit.

xgregx
05-15-2004, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by straightXed
unless they get shit.

word. or they were shit to begin with.

xethanx
05-15-2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by xshadowsfallx
word. or they were shit to begin with.

but why would you like them in the first place if there shitty? or do you mean like Gwar?

XrandomideazX
05-30-2004, 01:08 AM
but you have to think that a lot of bands did not want to sell out but just to be unique.Nirvana wasnt unique for the most part because it was the whole grunge faise but after kobaines death people started to sell them out.which is weird because they werent the best band in the world!lyrics werent that good.Im still confused on the outcome of the aftermath.maybe its just me?!